Moral question, is the technique acceptable? immoral?


NEW YORK (CNN) -- A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.


Ex-CIA agent John Kiriakou says he underwent waterboarding in training and cracked in a few seconds.

1 of 2 Former CIA operative John Kiriakou also told CNN's "American Morning" that he disagrees with a decision to destroy videotapes of certain interrogations, namely of al Qaeda's Abu Zubayda. Kiriakou made the remarks as two congressional committees prepared to grill CIA Director Michael Hayden on the destruction of the tapes and on "alternative" means of interrogation.

Waterboarding begins by placing a suspect on a table with the suspect's feet slightly elevated, said Kiriakou, who was waterboarded several years ago as part of his CIA training. He said he elected not to learn how to perform the technique, which is designed to emulate the sensation of drowning.

Once a suspect is secured on the table, interrogators wrap his or her face in a cellophane-like material, Kiriakou said.
"There is a bladder, or a water source, above the head with water pouring down on the mouth


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/agent.tapes/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. President George W. Bush "has no recollection" of videotapes of CIA interrogations of some al Qaeda suspects or of plans to destroy the tapes, a White House spokeswoman said.


CIA Director Michael Hayden says congressional leaders were told about the tapes.

1 of 2 Bush and Vice President Cheney learned about videotaped interrogations of some al Qaeda suspects on Thursday, when CIA Director Michael Hayden briefed them about the existence of the tapes and their subsequent destruction, administration officials said Friday.

The interrogations -- using newly approved "alternative" interrogation techniques -- of two al Qaeda suspects were recorded in 2002, Hayden said Thursday in a letter to CIA employees. They were destroyed three years later when the agency determined they had no intelligence value and could pose a security risk, he said.

"I spoke to the president this morning about this," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "He has no recollection of being made aware of the tapes or their destruction before yesterday. He was briefed by General Hayden yesterday morning."

The vice president learned about the tapes and their destruction at the same time, another administration official told CNN.

It is immoral and highly unacceptable. It is one of the things working against the Republicans at the moment.

mrpataki:

It is immoral and highly unacceptable. It is one of the things working against the Republicans at the moment.

Actually it depends on who you speak to when you say it is working against the Republicans at the moment. Not many americans are gung ho about this NO Torture situation. Infact, the jury is still out on whether waterboarding is torture and if prying information off of those who want to kill americans is really torture.

I will quote a man who called in to the BBC today "This is War, if information will save lives, get it"

pray how do the Iranians and Venezuelans torture their criminal suspects to obtain information?

Anything is news as long as it has to do with the US. Is the world so bored or are we not becoming moral hypocrites:?

I think is much more humane than the practices of the Nigerian civil war carried out by the chief perpetrators. I guess every nation has its own torture techniques. To each his own jare!

It is one of the things working against the Republicans at the moment.

what has torture got to do with the party, torture has existed since mans coming.

Where the world is going now is funny, we all imagine a utopic world where lions an sheep will live in unison, bullshit ,we know dat aint possible, some of these torture techniques are needed to save innocent lives, lives like urs and mine, i dont think any terrorist will divulge any info with a bottle of coke, big mac and a good cigar to wash it all down, ,

idupaul:

what has torture got to do with the party, torture has existed since mans coming.

Where the world is going now is funny, we all imagine a utopic world where lions an sheep will live in unison, bullshit ,we know that aint possible, some of these torture techniques are needed to save innocent lives, lives like urs and mine, i don't think any terrorist will divulge any info with a bottle of coke, big mac and a good cigar to wash it all down, ,

LMAO!!!!!

The US is a ssignatory to international treaties and conventions that bar torture. The US laws also forbid torture.

That said, [size=14pt]waterboaring IS TORTURE![/size]

Torture as defnied by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment:

"the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

@Mamajama

It is sad to see many of these "I love America pass my papa and mama" people not having the courage to rise above their materialist concerns and state boldly that all forms of torture, including waterboarding, are forms of injustice and inhumanity.

They're quick to point out to the injustices of other nations but try to justify the evils of America.

The great Martin Luther King said:  Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

RichyBlack says: Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere

I am sure you will ove this @mdsocks

http://worldhaveyoursay./2007/12/12/is-torture-ever-ok/ . ON World Have your say today, WaterBoarding is being discussed and you can see that not all americans are onboard with the whole NO TORTURE deal. LMAO!!!

Kobojunkie:

I am sure you will ove this @mdsocks

http://worldhaveyoursay./2007/12/12/is-torture-ever-ok/ . ON World Have your say today, WaterBoarding is being discussed and you can see that not all americans are onboard with the whole NO TORTURE deal. LMAO!!!

Why can't we accept a simple fact? is it coz its commited by americans, waterboarding is TORTURE. If you like argue till eternity it cant change the simple fact. America cant cos Iran and Ven torture indulge in same. They are suppose to be the light in keeping the International law and maintaning Human right but they seems to lack behind in all of those yet they bully other smaller countries that commit the same crime as them.

presido1:

Why can't we accept a simple fact? is it because its commited by americans, waterboarding is TORTURE. If you like argue till eternity it can't change the simple fact. America can't because Iran and Ven torture indulge in same. They are suppose to be the light in keeping the International law and maintaning Human right but they seems to lack behind in all of those yet they bully other smaller countries that commit the same crime as them.

aaarggghh, So America should not torture because according to you America is supposed to be the LIGHT for the rest of the world?? But your own country and other countries that signed the same are not to keep to same?? Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y??, LMAO!!!!!

WAKE UP!! Stop breaking the law up for different countries. Apply the same rule you would with one to the other. Why are you DEMANDING america be the saint in this case but other countries not be held to the same??

Anywhoo, like you said, argue from today to the morrow, I am sorry I do not see the world through the same goggles as you do on this issue and I pray I never see utopia your way.

presido1:

America can't because Iran and Ven torture indulge in same. They are suppose to be the light in keeping the International law and maintaning Human right but they seems to lack behind in all of those yet they bully other smaller countries that commit the same crime as them.

keep quiet mr presido! It is this same weak non-argument that terrorists have become emboldened to attack western nations. When the US takes concrete steps to defend itself everyone including islamic hypocrites who spend their time dishing out lashes, cutting off of hands and beheadings in public squares start crying about "international law and human rights".

When Saudi Arabia chose to scourge a rape victim, America did not bully them. when Iran hangs 14yr old girls in public squares for crimes against chastity, the US says nothing.

If you want the US to stop waterboarding then tell other nations to stop exporting terrorists. These terrorists are not ghosts, other nations prefer to look the other way then accuse the US of failing to be a "light of the world".
They tried to uphold "human rights" in Iraq, we all know the reactions of Iran and co. One would have though Saddam was a saint.

presido1:

Why can't we accept a simple fact? is it because its commited by americans, waterboarding is TORTURE. If you like argue till eternity it can't change the simple fact. America can't because Iran and Ven torture indulge in same. They are suppose to be the light in keeping the International law and maintaning Human right but they seems to lack behind in all of those yet they bully other smaller countries that commit the same crime as them.

@ presido1,

Thank you o[i] jare[/i]! Waterboarding is torture, period!

davidylan:

keep quiet mr presido! It is this same weak non-argument that terrorists have become emboldened to attack western nations. When the US takes concrete steps to defend itself everyone including islamic hypocrites who spend their time dishing out lashes, cutting off of hands and beheadings in public squares start crying about "international law and human rights".

When Saudi Arabia chose to scourge a rape victim, America did not bully them. when Iran hangs 14yr old girls in public squares for crimes against chastity, the US says nothing.

If you want the US to stop waterboarding then tell other nations to stop exporting terrorists. These terrorists are not ghosts, other nations prefer to look the other way then accuse the US of failing to be a "light of the world".
They tried to uphold "human rights" in Iraq, we all know the reactions of Iran and co. One would have though Saddam was a saint.

Keep quiet davidylan! America supports Saudi Arabia, the country that exports the most terrorists! Is it by accident that 15 out of the 19 hijackers that executed the 9/11 attacks were Saudis?

Until America confronts the truth and deal with the House of Saud, terrorists that can wreck major havoc shall continue to flow.

Waterboarding is torture, I hope you're not too blinded by "I love America pass my papa and mama" to see that. Well, I'm sure you can see that.

@Presido1, Please spent some time to listen to the program and listen to other people tell you there take on this. It is awesome. Listen to the callers and maybe you might get a better idea of what the debate is about.

Kobojunkie:

aaarggghh, So America should not torture because according to you America is supposed to be the LIGHT for the rest of the world?? But your own country and other countries that signed the same are not to keep to same?? Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y??, LMAO!!!!!

WAKE UP!! Stop breaking the law up for different countries. Apply the same rule you would with one to the other. Why are you DEMANDING america be the saint in this case but other countries not be held to the same??

Anywhoo, like you said, argue from today to the morrow, I am sorry I do not see the world through the same goggles as you do on this issue and I pray I never see utopia your way.

This woman keeps posting nonsense. Where did presido1 one claim torture should be the exclusive reserve of some nations to the exclusion of America? Try to understand the meaning of words before using them.

It doesn't matter who uses waterboarding, Iran o, Israel o, Saudi o, Nigeria o, IT IS TORTURE!

You all need to log on to listen to the debate. I believe you can listen to it later on BBC world service or something. Interesting debate.

Kobojunkie:

@Presido1, Please spent some time to listen to the program and listen to other people tell you there take on this. It is awesome. Listen to the callers and maybe you might get a better idea of what the debate is about.

Sometime i dont understand your english as highlighted.

Kobojunkie:

aaarggghh, So America should not torture because according to you America is supposed to be the LIGHT for the rest of the world?? But your own country and other countries that signed the same are not to keep to same?? Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y??, LMAO!!!!!

WAKE UP!! Stop breaking the law up for different countries. Apply the same rule you would with one to the other. Why are you DEMANDING america be the saint in this case but other countries not be held to the same??

Anywhoo, like you said, argue from today to the morrow, I am sorry I do not see the world through the same goggles as you do on this issue and I pray I never see utopia your way.

Again the highlighted should go to you and not me. Condi preach against torture while US govt indulge in it. They monitor election all over the world while the first election of Bush was settled in Court.That shows it was not fare like in Nigeria and Russia. Many atime i dont know where you stand on political issues. You are too biased to discuss things with.

So my misspelling the word Spend is an ENGLISH problem for you ?? Or your not understanding that the jury is still out on whether Waterboarding is Torture is the problem here?

Yes, I urge you to listen to other people tell you their take on the issue. Maybe that way you get a better understanding of what the case really is. Read up on the topic please. The problem is not that the USA is torturing people and saying it is ok to do that. The problem is that not all agree that waterboarding is torture and beside that, there are many more who believe that torture is necessary when it comes to extracting information from terrorist. You can spend more time picking the spelling errors in my posts or you can better yet actually READ up what the case is and THEN make valuable contribution, stating your own opinion instead of making this another thread where people come in to tell others how to run their country when the same can not be applied to even the very one they call their own. And please, No dilly-dallying please. Stick to the TOPIC AT HAND.

RichyBlacK:

Keep quiet davidylan! America supports Saudi Arabia, the country that exports the most terrorists! Is it by accident that 15 out of the 19 hijackers that executed the 9/11 attacks were Saudis?

Is it also by accident that Afghans, Pakistanis make up the bulk of alqaeda? Is it an accident that Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians make up the bulk of Hezbollah? Is it by accident that Egyptians, Jordanians, "palestiinians" make up the bulk of Hamas?
The nationality of the 9/11 hijackers is very irrelevant . . . the common denominator is ISLAM.

RichyBlacK:

Until America confronts the truth and deal with the House of Saud, terrorists that can wreck major havoc shall continue to flow.

You hypocrites shld hide your head in shame. America went in to deal with Saddam and we all saw the reaction from people like you who speak from all 4 sides of your mouth. It doesnt matter if America decides to deal with the house of Saud or not, they are not directly responsible for terrorism . . . Iran, Syria are also active sponsors of terrorism.

RichyBlacK:

Waterboarding is torture, I hope you're not too blinded by "I love America pass my papa and mama" to see that. Well, I'm sure you can see that.

Beheading of 14yr old children is not only torture but barbaric . . . start by condemning the Iranians first. You blind camels.

Are you listerning to what US citizens say about torture or what the Vienna convention says? thats where you got it wrong dude. Do you think many dont support ahmadijan in iran, does that make him a saint? many nigerian supported Abacha mind you. Cos many US citizens support torture then its becomes a way of lyf.

presido1:

Are you listerning to what US citizens say about torture or what the Vienna convention says? thats where you got it wrong dude. Do you think many don't support ahmadijan in iran, does that make him a saint? many nigerian supported Abacha mind you. Cos many US citizens support torture then its becomes a way of lyf.

I am one minute away from considering you another senile human being with access to a computer and internet. Do you read at all?? Do you think that because you are against torture means you are right then ?? Stick to the debate topic please.

Is WaterBoarding considered Torture?? The answer is NOT EVERYONE AGREES that it is classed as torture. 

Would you accept Torture be used in some case?? The answer is Not everyone agrees as some say this is war, it is more moral to get information to save lives than sit and think it will be offered you in a platter of Gold.

Trying to make your side of the argument the ABSOLUTE in this case is ridiculous and silly at best. Read up on the topic and know what is really at hand here. Not come out with the same PUT EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH ME DOWN AS INHUMAN UNCIVILIZED BEINGS. sheessh!!!

It is a DEBATE,  not a DEFINITE as not all agree that it qualifies. And trying to turn this into another USELESS attack america for not DOING WHAT I WANT INSTEAD thread only shows how half minded you are in your way of approaching issues.

If you go through my post well never has i asked you to accept my opinion and i am not trying to force the truth in you cos you will never accept it. If not everybody as you put will determine what is torture or not torture then think back b4 the war in iraq. did everybody support it? but the war still went on. Am sure you will find it difficult to understand but the truth still remains that Waterboarding is TORTURE. Gat to watch the match dude catch you next time.
nice day.

presido1:

If you go through my post well never has i asked you to accept my opinion and i am not trying to force the truth in you because you will never accept it. If not everybody as you put will determine what is torture or not torture then think back before the war in iraq. did everybody support it? but the war still went on. Am sure you will find it difficult to understand but the truth still remains that Waterboarding is TORTURE. Gat to watch the match dude catch you next time.
nice day.

You really think I am not ready for such back and forths?? Bring it on

WATERBOARDING is not Torture,  NEXT!!!!

What a terrifying way to get information.

What's next? Burying people alive with only enough room for a microphone?

Kobojunkie:

WATERBOARDING is not Torture, NEXT!!!!

Actually it IS torture. Causing the illusion of drowning is torture. The real question is whether or not is wrong or right or worthy doing in the name of gaining information.

D-reloaded:

Actually it IS torture. Causing the illusion of drowning is torture. The real question is whether or not is wrong or right or worthy doing in the name of gaining information.

Depends on who you are asking. Sure we could say it is torture but define torture. My brother would consider my causing him to carry a table on his head, for an 15 minutes as punishment for disobeying me, torture. I consider it just punishment . Whose definition do we go with?? His or mine??

Is it immoral?? Is teaching my brother a lesson so next time he thinks of disobeying me, he stops to think twice immoral??

Waterboarding is a[b] torture technique[/b] that simulates drowning in a controlled environment. It consists of immobilizing an individual on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face[1] to force the inhalation of water into the lungs.[2] Waterboarding has been used to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. In contrast to merely submerging the head, waterboarding elicits the gag reflex,[3] and can make the subject believe death is imminent. Waterboarding's use as a method of torture or means to support interrogation is based on its ability to cause extreme mental distress while possibly creating no lasting physical damage to the subject. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last long after the procedure.[4] Although waterboarding in cases can leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the real risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries as a result of struggling against restraints (including broken bones), and even death.

Actually asking your brother to carry a table on his head(very stupid punishment btw) is a form of torture. It might seem like a simple punishment to you, the TORTURER but it's obviously torture to the person.

According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture", "no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal."