Lord_Reed:

Yes sounds wicked when a judge pronounces judgement. Just as you say He threatens always, He also adjures everyone to be saved always, is that not fair?

Area_boy:
that's one wicked god

danwo:
I suppose you arrived at that opinion by your myopic standards. You will soon find out that the older you grow the less you thought you know

ayobase:
Thats uncalled for!

danwo:
So the hypocritical self-righteousness claim that God is wicked is called for. Hmm?
No offence because it is a fact that the older you get you'll soon realise that you actually know less than you actually thought you knew

ayobase:
Im just saying u can pass ur msg without those!

ayobase:
Na real swegbe he be....running behind d teacher....the teacher sef na mumu!

ayobase:
Wet blanket...u wan spoil market?
Stay put with DEEP!

ayobase:
U r a coward.
So, surfing through profiles is what determines ur courage....u disappointed me.
And ur sense of judgement tells how stupid u are.
GBOROMIRO!
U just came in here and started yapping like bingo.
If I may ask u, do u get ur pieces of information from the pluto?
Let me not waste my precious time on u!
U are now publicized...enjoy!

ayobase:
U r indeed not SMART....sorry to say abeg!
Or shld I say u r not a PLAYER...not a player as such.
She is taking u for granted aight.....its better u turn her to ur f.uucking mate, but be careful of STDs..just learnt that there are some STDs that affect the Liver!
I was once like u....always giving my best to keep the relationship going cos she is BEAUTIFUL,INTELLIGENT and SMART gel.
You are too carried aways by those features, and she is manipulating u with those.
''atleast he cant leave me because Im too good for him......''
Did I speak ur WHOLE-HEART!

ayobase:

Thats not a threat, but WARNING out of LOVE!

Delafruita:
full dose of bullcrap

OlaAjia:

Let me get this straight.

I dig a very deep ditch and light it up with an everlasting fire,

I don't stop there. I make the path to that ditch very slippery and practically impossible to evade for all wayfarers.

I then tell the wayfarers that "hey, you must worship me and accept me as your lord, by so doing, I'll prevent you from slipping into my fire, else, I will look the other way as you slip into it."

"What's more, you'll burn in it forever since you did not obey me!"

"Kindly note that this warning is out of love"

One wayfarer asks. "Errr excuse me Mr ditch digger, why did you feel obliged to dig the ditch and light it up in the first place"

My reply "Well, I love you, that's why. Now shut up and stop questioning my ways. My ways are mysterious."

As you can see people, it's all for love!

Lord_Reed:

God set into motion a Universe of cause and effect and placed you in it in order to show you how much like Him you are but you want to spurn His guidance and expect to be safe. Tell me who is deluded.

OlaAjia:

Why does God create me and then feel obliged to "set into motion" such an elaborate, grand scheme just so he can show me how much like Him I am? I don't get it.

Why do I, a creation, need to know how much like my creator I am? And why should I want to be like my creator?

Further, if in your own words I "spurn His guidance", should that not prove to God, more than myself that He has created me with 'flaws' that can never make me like Him? What's the point exactly?

OlaAjia:
Let me get this straight.

I dig a very deep ditch and light it up with an everlasting fire,

I don't stop there. I make the path to that ditch very slippery and practically impossible to evade for all wayfarers.

I then tell the wayfarers that "hey, you must worship me and accept me as your lord, by so doing, I'll prevent you from slipping into my fire, else, I will look the other way as you slip into it."

"What's more, you'll burn in it forever since you did not obey me!"

"Kindly note that this warning is out of love"

One wayfarer asks. "Errr excuse me Mr ditch digger, why did you feel obliged to dig the ditch and light it up in the first place"

My reply "Well, I love you, that's why. Now shut up and stop questioning my ways. My ways are mysterious."

As you can see people, it's all for love!

Lord_Reed:
God set into motion a Universe of cause and effect and placed you in it in order to show you how much like Him you are but you want to spurn His guidance and expect to be safe. Tell me who is deluded.

OlaAjia:
Why does God create me and then feel obliged to "set into motion" such an elaborate, grand scheme just so he can show me how much like Him I am? I don't get it.

Why do I, a creation, need to know how much like my creator I am? And why should I want to be like my creator?

Further, if in your own words I "spurn His guidance", should that not prove to God, more than myself that He has created me with 'flaws' that can never make me like Him? What's the point exactly?

Lord_Reed:

The point is growth. Children grow to become adults like they parents and while they are growing they are schooled by their parents and other adults.

Lord_Reed:

Do you say to your parents why did you birth me? Do you say to them why do you guide me, did I ask to be born? No you don't, you follow the structure of the society. This is similar to what God expects of you.

Lord_Reed:

You are an offshoot of God you are meant to grow to be like Him, same way an Elephant births a baby which will grow into another Elephant.

Lord_Reed:

No it doesn't prove that you are too flawed to be of use to Him rather it proves that you are not competent to achieve the purpose of creation by yourself.

OlaAjia:

1) Why does God create me and then feel obliged to "set into motion" such an elaborate, grand scheme just so he can show me how much like Him I am? I don't get it.

2) Why do I, a creation, need to know how much like my creator I am? And why should I want to be like my creator?

3) Further, if in your own words I "spurn His guidance", should that not prove to God, more than myself that He has created me with 'flaws' that can never make me like Him? What's the point exactly?

danwo:





@OlaAjia

You being melodramatic and digging a ditch for yourself.

Listen to yourself. "Why does God create me? . . . "

Why not. It would have been unfair for God not to have created you.

God is omniscient. So it is true He knew that many people would be stiff necked and rebellious and He also knew that many people too would will toe the line.

Evil was already present before God created your lineage Adam and Eve before you

Are you saying God shouldn't have created you?

Are you saying you rather would have preferred aborted than experience the opportunity to know God?

Are you saying you prefer not to have the chance to personally know God's love and peace?

You whack your talisman on your head if you are 100% sure of its potency

and that is exactly what God did

danwo:


God didn't chicken out or baulk thinking "There are going to be too many evil people, [s]too many OlaAjias, too many Delafruitas, too many Area_boys etc,[/s] so I will not create them man,"

danwo:


Such thinking, idea killing like this, is wickedness, evil in itself

Evil would have triumphed by influencing God's idea and thwarting His plan of which God is worthy, to receive the glory and honour and power: for He hast created all things, and for His pleasure they are and were created.

Romans 12:2 states "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

It is a good thing God created you and hey all play by the same set of rules on this level playing field

OlaAjia:

Why do you have to create a strawman argument from something you quoted out of context in the first place?

If you can, please answer the questions that were asked and leave out the emotional baggage, thanks.

OlaAjia:
Implying people you hardly know are evil, forces me to question what your received definition of evil is. I'd be happy if you're kind enough to define evil for me.

OlaAjia:
So apparently you believe God NOT creating me would have been evil, but you don't believe God throwing me into an eternal burning flame is? You might have got it twisted bro/sis.

OlaAjia:
Would you rather be created and go to hell or never be created at all?

OlaAjia:

You've veered off on a tangent here my friend. I cannot comprehend how the above relates to the discussion at all.



Your analogy is drastically inappropriate. First of all, my parents did NOT give birth to me so that they can show me how much like them I am. If they did, I'd be asking them what the point of giving birth to me was. Secondly, they will not purposefully place booby traps of eternal fire on my path, just so they can punish me for not following their path, heck, my parents will remove all possibilities of sickness, fire, natural disasters and evil in general from my life if they had the same powers as God; and without me even having to ask them.

Mind you, I don't always follow the structure of society as you claim. There are many times I question society when it endorses things that are incompatible with my principles. Similarly, extending your reasoning, God should expect me to question Him when He endorses things that are incompatible with my principles.



For the avoidance of doubt, a baby elephant will grow into another elephant because such processes are embedded into strict genetic codes than are impossible to alter significantly at a go. A baby elephant for example, will not grow into an adult monkey. Note that whether a baby elephant behaves like his parents do or chooses a different path for itself, it will still grow to be an elephant, no? So by your analogy, I am a baby God and should hope to grow to become and adult God someday, right?



Not competent, Flawed are all just semantics. They serve the same function in this context. If for example, I am not competent, was it not God that created me to be as such? If your car develops an engine fault would you say your car was not competent enough to be driven by you, or would you blame your car's manufacturer for building an incompetent car.

Kindly address the questions I asked in my previous post as you are yet to do so.

To avoid confusion, please answer them in the same order I have structured them below, thanks.

danwo:









@ayobase
Aye I will learn from your sanctimonious self and maybe I should be borrowing from some of your favorite adjectives below

OlaAjia:

Why do you have to create a strawman argument from something you quoted out of context in the first place? If you can, please answer the questions that were asked and leave out the emotional baggage, thanks.



Implying people you hardly know are evil, forces me to question what your received definition of evil is. I'd be happy if you're kind enough to define evil for me.



So apparently you believe God [b]NOT [/b]creating me would have been evil, but you don't believe God throwing me into an eternal burning flame is? You might have got it twisted bro/sis. Would you rather be created and go to hell or never be created at all?

ayobase:

An illustration:
-Government makes sure ones rights are not trampled upon, and among other benefits, but wouldnt fail to punish when one breaks the law despite being a top official.
-Out of love, parents scold or flog one to administering correction despite being the only child.
-If one breaks the contractual rule despite being paid millions of naira per yr, the Company wouldnt fail to query/sack one.
The same applies to God and His children!
''I love u some much, so I wouldnt take away ur choice, but choosing life will be better in order to avoid eternal damnation''
In a nutshel, hell fire and lake of fire were not created for us, but for Satan and the fallen angels (eternal punishment for what they did)....one being there is a choice!

Ileke-IdI:
A straightforward reading of Genesis 3 and 4 would lead one to believe that Eve's first children were Cain and Abel, born outside the Garden, after the Fall. This would not be a problem except for one word in Genesis 3:16...


“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth."

In older translations, the word sharpen is translated as increase. God is telling Eve that the discomfort of bearing children will be worse

Lord_Reed:

There is no tangent friend. Your question has been answered. I expected that you will not be making very literary meanings of my analogies, they are merely to point out certain things for your understanding and are not a pound for pound exact nature of things.

Lord_Reed:

My QUESTION: Why does God create me and then feel obliged to "set into motion" such an elaborate, grand scheme just so he can show me how much like Him I am? I don't get it.

YOUR RESPONSE: He did not create you and set into motion the grand scheme. It was already in motion before your forebears came along. You are part of it and He desires to show that you are like Him because that was why He created you.

Lord_Reed:

MY QUESTION: Why do I, a creation, need to know how much like my creator I am? And why should I want to be like my creator?

YOUR RESPONSE: Why should an electrical generator generate electricity? That was why it was made. You were made to be like Him because He wanted God regents and according to the structure of the Universe you are created into, birth and growth, seed and harvest is the order.

Lord_Reed:

[b]MY QUESTION: Further, if in your own words I "spurn His guidance", should that not prove to God, more than myself that He has created me with 'flaws' that can never make me like Him? What's the point exactly?

YOUR RESPONSE: He created you with free will to choose. Either you live with Him or die without Him. Same choice Adam had, same choice for you today. And are you not making your choice now? There is no flaw, you are acting out your nature. Competence to become anything requires training and training is tailored to nature. The point exactly is growth.

ayobase:

An illustration:
-Government makes sure ones rights are not trampled upon, and among other benefits, but wouldnt fail to punish when one breaks the law despite being a top official.

ayobase:

-Out of love, parents scold or flog one to administering correction despite being the only child.

ayobase:

-If one breaks the contractual rule despite being paid millions of naira per yr, the Company wouldnt fail to query/sack one.

ayobase:

The same applies to God and His children!
''I love u some much, so I wouldnt take away ur choice, but choosing life will be better in order to avoid eternal damnation''
In a nutshel, hell fire and lake of fire were not created for us, but for Satan and the fallen angels (eternal punishment for what they did)....one being there is a choice!

OlaAjia:

Actually, analogies are meant to draw parallels (i.e. compare likeness). In order to use analogies in debates, there should be similarities between the things being compared, or else, that analogy would be inappropriate.

OlaAjia:

So I ask why God creates me just to show me how much Like Him I am, and your reply is that "He desires to show that I am like Him because that was why He created me" Isn't that answering my question with circular reasoning?

OlaAjia:
Bad analogy again. An electric generator was made to to generate electricity and that's about the only thing it does when it works. It also produces fumes and sounds; and it consumes Oil and fuel, but these are all necessary for it to function the way it is expected to, and it usually does. By analogy, if I was made to be like Him, everything I do - good or bad - is a reflection of him. If you claim I do contrary to God's will, that means he either did [b]NOT[/b]make me to be like him or I'm a badly made product as would a malfunctioning generator set be.

OlaAjia:
Does God have free will? Can he be bad, good, indifferent?

OlaAjia: @ayobase Interesting illustrations. If you don't mind, let's examine them one after the other, shall we?



OK



OK



OK



Actually, the same does NOT apply to God in any way. I do not know of any loving [/b]father or mother that would condemn their child(ren) to eternal damnation for going wrong. In fact, if my parents had God's powers, they'd have wiped out all possibilities of evil like earthquakes, tsunamis, lakes of fire.

WRT the bolded in your quote, what crimes did Satan and the fallen angels commit to deserve eternal damnation? Secondly, if that place was not created for us, why put us there at all?

Area_boy:

you cant equate human codes and laws to a god.

let god do it him/her self

OlaAjia:

.......Does God have free will? Can he be bad, good, indifferent?

Lord_Reed:

In other words they end at their similarities and it is not desired that analogies be extended beyond the point being made. If I say he has eyes like that of a fish, do I mean he is a fish? No I mean his eyes bulge, end of analogy.

Lord_Reed:

And how is that circular reasoning? You asked why does God want to lead me? I say He wants to lead you because He created you to be like Him. What is circular about this?

Lord_Reed:

Again understand analogy, we are focusing on nature and purpose. An electric generator is made to produce electricity, you are created to reflect God. Is it possible for the generator not to produce electricity? Yes given certain conditions even if the generator has no manufacturers fault. The reason why you malfunction according to His purpose is that you choose your way. You are making your choices outside His guidance and as such you will fail in meeting His purpose. Which is why He calls you even now to come to Him let Him show you the way.

Lord_Reed:

Yes He does. He however has choosen to be the epitome of righteousness and will not deviate from what He has chosen. Yes He can be bad if He chose to, indifferent if He wanted to be but that is not what He chose. He calls to us all and says allow Me to guide you.

Lord_Reed: @OlaAjia
Come now you are nitpicking, not cool. Here is the Wiktionary definition of analogy:

A relationship of resemblance [/b]or [b]equivalence
between two situations, people, or objects,
especially when used as a basis for
explanation or extrapolation.

Here is the Cambridge dictionary version:

a comparison between things which have
similar features, often used to help explain a
principle or idea.
E.g.: He drew an analogy between the brain and a vast
computer.
It is sometimes easier to illustrate an abstract
concept by analogy with (= by comparing it with)
something concrete.

In nowhere does it state that analogies must be exact in their similarities or natures. They are simply meant to teach and are not meant for out and out comparison.

Lord_Reed:

Your question again: Why does God create me just to show me how much like Him I am?
If I read this correctly this is actually two questions rolled into one. 1st is why did God create me to which the answer remains He created you to be like Him. The 2nd is why does God want to lead me to which the answer also remains He wants to lead you to show you why He created you. Two things 1st He creates you to be like Him (which includes the ability to choose), next He desires to lead you so you can fulfill His purpose.

Lord_Reed:

Yes the generator can not do it's own will but you can.

Lord_Reed:

By your nature you are designed to be a certain way but you can make a choice that negates that. Your Manufacturer made you that way because He is that way.

Lord_Reed:

What makes you think anybody is the way they say they are? What makes you think your parents are not planning to kill you at this moment? What makes you think the woman you woke up beside does not have a weapon concealed ready to do you in? What makes you think the world won't stop spinning today throwing your life in to chaos and almost certain death? What probability do you calculate that each morning you will awake sane and healthy and step out of your house and not be killed at your doorstep?

OlaAjia:

I don't disagree with the above, as making analogies between two exact things is redundant. The above are definitions, while the link I provided in my previous post elaborates on applications. But take note of the operative words which I have taken the liberty to embolden for you in the definitions you provided.

In the analogy you state below do you suppose you adhere to your own rules of what analogies should be?

No, this is one question in one. A perfect analogy of the question asked above would be "Why should Lord_Reed log into Facebook in order to answer a question I asked on Nairaland?" Take note that this question is NOT asking why Lord_Reed logged into Facebook or any other tacit deductions you might be tempted extrapolate therefrom. Rather, it seeks to know why you chose to answer a question posed on Nairaland using Facebook. Similarly, my question seeks to know why God chose to create me just to show me how much like him I am. Simple!

Good then you are asking the wrong question because I never said God created you just to show you how much like Him you are. I said God created you to be like Him and He now desires to lead you to fulfill His purpose. One follows the other. The leading is not the purpose. Your being like Him is the purpose. The leading is to ensure success.

Hence, your analogy was misplaced.


Is it really possible for any creation to work incongruously with respect to the framework from which it is said to have emanated without being seen any other way but as a flawed creation?

First you don't want to accept the analogy of the electric generator but next you a human being want to reside with the framework of a soulless machine. Do you make choices now? Of course you do, you yourself said you do so why then do you want to argue as though you didn't? I have already told you this is the way you are made to be. Can you switch your thought tracks?

You aptly made use of the word 'think' in all your posers. Note that I might think these things, but that doesn't make my thinking correct. Thus, I am meant to allow for doubt. Do you not see that your questions apply more to you, as you seem absolutely certain of the nature and intent of God you have described previously? So should I take this as a concession that you are not really certain of everything you think about God?

I supposed you would know that I was being rhetorical in my answer. You want assurances that what I say is the truth or that things which are not seen now are truth and I ask you back what assurances do you have for your continued existence with the host of possibilities that could bring about your (sudden) demise?

buzugee: THE GARDEN OF EDEN IS ACTUALLY THE WHOLE WORLD ( THE EARTH ). WHEN IT SAYS THEY WERE KICKED OUT OF THE GARDEN OF EDEN, IT IS A METAPHORICAL STATEMENT WHICH MEANS THEY WERE KICKED INTO SUFFERING. THEY WERE KICKED OUT OF COMFORT INTO DISCOMFORT. KICKED OUT OF JOLLOFMENT INTO 'SHUFFERING AND SMILING'
AND ANIMALS WERE NOT PUNISHED. WATCH AN ANIMAL GIVE BIRTH. THEY JUST KICK THE BABIES OUT WITH NO PAIN AND THEN UP AND LEAVE AND CONTINUE DOING WHAT THEY WERE DOING ( EXCUSE ME FOR SCREAMING. I LOVE THESE CAPITAL FONTS )

Uyi Iredia: The curse applied strictly to man. There's nowhere and I mean NOWHERE in the Bible where animals were cursed/punished at the fall.