korrej: @Ihedinobi. Im waiting...

Joagbaje:

It could have fallen on peter or John . Rember Satan came for Peter also.

Luke 22:31-32
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee. . .

Satan always look for common denominator in a person as an entry point. He entered the serpent in genesis because there was common character trait

Genesis 3:1
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Peter had some instability but he had a honest heart. But. Jesus had to pray for him so that Satan won't have him. Satan could have gotten Jesus also but Jesus had nothing of him.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

But for Judas he heard the teachings of christ but he was not following with a true heart like Peter and others . He was even stealing from Jesus . He had lust for money.

John 12:6
(Judas didn't say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief. He was in charge of the moneybag and carried the contributions.)

Zikkyy:

I don't know how you want to interpret the bolded,you can imagine the type of punishment that awaits judas for this act. is it not better judas was never conceived? it has nothing to do with predestination.

mkmyers45: The biblical account sef is even wrong and biased but all i know is that if Jesus said he shouldnt have been born then how will the scripture be fulfilled..

mkmyers45: He prayed for peter and not for Judas..what does that tell us? John13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But that the
Scripture will be fulfilled ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Ihedinobi:

Well, there you go, bro.

Ihedinobi:

Please forgive my cutting in, but which account is not biased?

korrej:
Got it,interesting!
Hmm! Then it had to be one the disciple

Ihedinobi:

Can you accommodate the idea that it didn't have to be anyone? Can you believe that nobody need have done that job at all? God was not looking for some human agent to use and destroy, sir.

What if I told you that from the Garden of Eden, it became a given that someone would do it? Would that be so outrageous as to be unreasonable? Is it thinkable that the existence of a choice to betray Jesus or not was a product of the choice to obey God or not in Eden?

I submit that there never had to be a choice to betray Lord Jesus or not but for the fact that Adam chose to disobey God. I also submit that God never orchestrated nor does He orchestrate situations such as Jesus Christ's Death on the Cross. I submit that He knew what would happen and what choices each player would make and being a Player too, worked into His Own Grand Schemes each of those choices. Therefore could it be said that He reacted to situations as much as they reacted to Him.

Ihedinobi:

Can you accommodate the idea that it didn't have to be anyone? Can you believe that nobody need have done that job at all? God was not looking for some human agent to use and destroy, sir.

What if I told you that from the Garden of Eden, it became a given that someone would do it? Would that be so outrageous as to be unreasonable? Is it thinkable that the existence of a choice to betray Jesus or not was a product of the choice to obey God or not in Eden?

I submit that there never had to be a choice to betray Lord Jesus or not but for the fact that Adam chose to disobey God. I also submit that God never orchestrated nor does He orchestrate situations such as Jesus Christ's Death on the Cross. I submit that He knew what would happen and what choices each player would make and being a Player too, worked into His Own Grand Schemes each of those choices. Therefore could it be said that He reacted to situations as much as they reacted to Him.

Ihedinobi: Continuing from previous post......

So, God's continuous presentation of the decision to Pharoah through Moses with attendant signs and wonders could have forced him to make a final decision about God. As for which decision he made, it is not right to say that God forced him to choose against Him. The Bible says that God's desire is for the sinner to repent and change his ways not for them to harden in their sinful ways so He did not force Pharoah to stand against Him. It makes more sense to reason that perhaps Pharoah had been vacillating (which fact events later proved true) and God intended to force him to take his true stand, whether for or against Him and make this stand abundantly clear to all concerned.

Therefore, I submit that God's hardening of anyone's heart is not the same as man's manipulation of people into choices they prefer for them. Rather is it a "concretizing" of the hidden decisions in a person's heart.

Esau
Before ever this one was born, it was said that God had loved his younger twin and hated him. The inference from that fact that God had sealed his destiny and condemned him to His hatred no matter what he did is wrong because it does not take account of God's Eternity.

You see, with God, past, present and future is an eternal NOW. God is not subject to Time which is a Creation of His. Therefore does He call Himself I AM. If this is true, then Esau's birth, development and demise were already before Him before they became history. In other words, His hatred of Esau must have been more than just an arbitrary action that events of history had to conform to. In fact, if you consider that God is Himself Love, then the question becomes "how can He hate at all?"

My answer is that Hatred is actually the total absence of Love. And there are two ways Love can be absent: (1)that it is not given at all and (2) that it is repudiated or not received at all. The question then arises "which is better suited to the situation between God and Esau?" Our understanding of the error of anthropomorphism declares that we must not assume that because man can withhold Love, God must necessarily do the same. We understand from the Bible that God loves. He loves regardless the worthiness of the object of His Love. He will love even when He is insulted to His Face by those He loves. So, it cannot be that He refuses Esau His Love. Thus option (1) may be struck out.

As for option (2), we have the history of Esau to tell us how even though the Promise of God to Abraham and Isaac should have naturally passed on to Esau that he had no respect for it and treated it as a mean thing. He, in fact, displayed total contempt for his natural, unearned birthright by selling it for a meal. If he did that, is it absurd to infer that he would have spat at the Promise itself which, in fact, was symbolized by that birthright? I think not.

It is therefore within reason to conclude that the absence of God's Love from the individual Esau's and the lineage and subsequent nation Edom's life was because of his and their repudiation of It.

Therefore, it is an error to say that it was some whim on God's part to choose to hate Esau in favor of his brother.

Finally, Uzzah
Why did God kill Uzzah for trying to prevent His Ark from falling? Well, even in the question there is a beginning to the answer. Whose Ark was it? God's. As such, did He have idiosyncracies concerning it? The Bible says He does. Should they have been respected? As much as He Himself should have been. There are the answers.

God Himself was extremely specific as to how His Ark was to be handled. See Numbers 4 and 1 Chronicles 15 (especially v13). Because His Ark was identical with Himself, mishandling could not be tolerated. Therefore did Uzzah perish. Great zeal and passion to do right are acceptable things but if they are not guided by a knowledge of that which is right, they result in great evil such as Uzzah's mission was associated with.

Conclusion
Finally, I conclude that predestination is not the same as whimsical assignation of destinies to individuals or clusters. That any human being or group of human beings meets any particular end is because they chose that end of their own will and desire. The only sense in which God is responsible for their choosing it at all is that He created them despite knowing what they would choose.

Uzzah's example indicates that there is no arbitrariness with God. He has reasons for everything He does and anyone who operates without knowledge of and respect for those reasons will find himself fighting against God.

mkmyers45: He prayed for peter and not for Judas..what does that tell us? John13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But that the
Scripture will be fulfilled ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Ihedinobi:

Can you accommodate the idea that it didn't have to be anyone? Can you believe that nobody need have done that job at all? God was not looking for some human agent to use and destroy, sir.

What if I told you that from the Garden of Eden, it became a given that someone would do it? Would that be so outrageous as to be unreasonable? Is it thinkable that the existence of a choice to betray Jesus or not was a product of the choice to obey God or not in Eden?

I submit that there never had to be a choice to betray Lord Jesus or not but for the fact that Adam chose to disobey God. I also submit that God never orchestrated nor does He orchestrate situations such as Jesus Christ's Death on the Cross. I submit that He knew what would happen and what choices each player would make and being a Player too, worked into His Own Grand Schemes each of those choices. Therefore could it be said that He reacted to situations as much as they reacted to Him.

Delafruita:
frankyl,the judas story is just as ridiculous as the jesus story.

what was the betrayal of judas?he kissed jesus as a way of letting the soldiers identify him.now this is just bollocks.jesus was supposedly a popular figure.a man who supposedly fed 3000 and 5000 people on differenticcasions in a city of less than 50,000 people.a man who was well known to the leaders of the pharisees.a man who was very popular then becomes a man whose identity is unknown to the point the pharisees(who know him) have to pay someone to identify him with a freaking kisss.how ridiculous does that even sound?

Delafruita:
in all fairness,you always try to reason out this issues as best as you can.it was quite a task reading the entire post(parts 1 and 2).however,all your conjectures are just that,conjectures.going by your analogy,when yahweh granted nebuchadnezzer victory over isreal,its not that yahweh granted him victory,its actually that yahweh removed himself from the equation and nebuchadnezzer won.

however,in the case of pharaoh,yahweh made it clear in his own book that he hardened the heart of pharoah because he wanted glory which he wont have gotten if pharaoh had just let them go when moses asked.as for judas,even his death was prophesied.peter said in acts that judas died and his bowels littered the field "so that the prophecy may be fulfilled".yahweh makes things happen so that his words dont go void.for example,matthew says joseph settle in nazareth so that the prophecy may be fulfilled that "he shall be a nazarene".
even the thirty pieces of silver was already recorded in psalms.his entire history had been written before he was even born.he had no say in the matter.he was just a pawn on yahweh's chessboard as are we all(according to christians).

ok then it means satan didnt know the significance of christ death on time

this is plain dumb.if satan didnt know the purpose of jesus in the world,why did he attempt to tempt him three times?was the death of jesus not prophesied by the books as claimed by christianity?did isaiah and david not prophesy of his birth?even herod attempted to kill him at birth and you say satan with alll his disappearing act and absolute power and knowledge didnt know what jesus came to do.

Delafruita:
in all fairness,you always try to reason out this issues as best as you can.it was quite a task reading the entire post(parts 1 and 2).however,all your conjectures are just that,conjectures.going by your analogy,when yahweh granted nebuchadnezzer victory over isreal,its not that yahweh granted him victory,its actually that yahweh removed himself from the equation and nebuchadnezzer won.

however,in the case of pharaoh,yahweh made it clear in his own book that he hardened the heart of pharoah because he wanted glory which he wont have gotten if pharaoh had just let them go when moses asked.as for judas,even his death was prophesied.peter said in acts that judas died and his bowels littered the field "so that the prophecy may be fulfilled".yahweh makes things happen so that his words dont go void.for example,matthew says joseph settle in nazareth so that the prophecy may be fulfilled that "he shall be a nazarene".
even the thirty pieces of silver was already recorded in psalms.his entire history had been written before he was even born.he had no say in the matter.he was just a pawn on yahweh's chessboard as are we all(according to christians).

He prayed for peter and not for Judas..what does that tell us? John13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But that the
Scripture will be fulfilled ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled

however,in the case of pharaoh,yahweh made it clear in his own book that he hardened the heart of pharoah because he wanted glory which he wont have gotten if pharaoh had just let them go when moses asked.as for judas,even his death was prophesied.peter said in acts that judas died and his bowels littered the field "so that the prophecy may be fulfilled".yahweh makes things happen so that his words dont go void.for example,matthew says joseph settle in nazareth so that the prophecy may be fulfilled that "he shall be a nazarene".
even the thirty pieces of silver was already recorded in psalms.his entire history had been written before he was even born.he had no say in the matter.he was just a pawn on yahweh's chessboard as are we all(according to christians).

what was the betrayal of judas?he kissed jesus as a way of letting the soldiers identify him.now this is just bollocks.jesus was supposedly a popular figure.a man who supposedly fed 3000 and 5000 people on differenticcasions in a city of less than 50,000 people.a man who was well known to the leaders of the pharisees.a man who was very popular then becomes a man whose identity is unknown to the point the pharisees(who know him) have to pay someone to identify him with a freaking kisss.how ridiculous does that even sound?

korrej: @all. I have really gained from this discourse. Thanks to everyone that made comment. Before now i had a different perspective about this topic but now i think im refined by your posts. Again, thank you!

mkmyers45: ^^^^ Jesus in his omniscience knew what he will do? that says it all then..

mkmyers45: ^^^^ Jesus in his omniscience knew what he will do? that says it all then..

Image123:
maybe, but note that Jesus knew, not that He made or destined him to it.

mkmyers45: whats ur perspective?

Zikkyy:

You stubborn sha am begining to think you are pre-destined to keep arguing this pre-destination thing knowing what will happen does not equate to controlling events that will lead to the expected outcome.

mkmyers45: but remember that the fate of the betrayer was already sealed no? whoever it was he/she was stepping into an already written script..

mkmyers45: in Physics it does...

mkmyers45: ..Its not about stubborn but about the truth...

korrej:
That judas was just a tool that was used for christ's death and he couldnt have avoided it. In today's life application that i might also be in judas's shoe and cant avoid it(but wasnt sure that's why i started the thread).

Image123:
don't quite work that way. more like. a ultrasound telling or knowing what's inside a woman, since when, till when. etc The machine knows even more than the subject woman but did not cause or seal her faith. she can still have a miscarriage, a stillbirth, a premature etc. the 'omniscient' machine gave the written script but did not write it, and even that written still depends on the pregnant lass.

Zikkyy:

What do consider as truth? Is it what is written in the bible? or your interpretation of it?