ijawkid:
You and your twin bro are doing exactly that...I just showed ihedinobi a replica of the scripture he quoted to support his stance to help him see the real meanings of bible truths..but you guys turned a blind eye to it...



One thing you should know is that the more the verses the better...because the bible should be our final authority like you earlier said......if you claim or hold on to your position that billions of persons would be burning eternally in HELL fire,then you'll have to agree that nations like EDOM,babylon,sodom and gomorrah are still burning till this moment....the bible has to agree....



That is why they shouldn't be taken literally....rather should be applied symbolically.....

Revelation,isaiahs prophecy all speak the same thing....the lake of fire,fire containing sulphur and brim stone all connotes everlasting and complete destruction....



Those questions are actually very pertinent to verify if really the HELL fire is a literal place or a symbol of total destruction or death........if you try to runaway from those questions then you aint sincere.....

bros, you are welcome.

ijawkid:
You and your twin bro are doing exactly that...I just showed ihedinobi a replica of the scripture he quoted to support his stance to help him see the real meanings of bible truths..but you guys turned a blind eye to it...

No he did not and neither have I.

One thing you should know is that the more the verses the better...because the bible should be our final authority like you earlier said......if you claim or hold on to your position that billions of persons would be burning eternally in HELL fire,then you'll have to agree that nations like EDOM,babylon,sodom and gomorrah are still burning till this moment....the bible has to agree....

I agree that the more verses the better. All I am saying is that verse do not nullify other verses, rather they complement them. Also neither I nor Ihedinobi necessarily hold that Hell is a literal fire however we hold that the torment is undeniable. Please endeavor to get our position right before your critique.

That is why they shouldn't be taken literally....rather should be applied symbolically.....

Revelation,isaiahs prophecy all speak the same thing....the lake of fire,fire containing sulphur and brim stone all connotes everlasting and complete destruction....

The question before us is what is the nature of that destruction? It is eternal torment and chaos not annihilation or disappearance so to speak.

Those questions are actually very pertinent to verify if really the HELL fire is a literal place or a symbol of total destruction or death........if you try to runaway from those questions then you aint sincere.....

No they are not. They are irrelevant questions. For instance, you didn't ask the name of the paralytic that Jesus told to take up his bed and walk in order to prove whether it was literal or not. A name is irrelevant to a story's literalism.

Lord_Reed:

On what basis are you making that change? Where is the evidence?



Here you go:

by this your statement there was no need for christ to be resurrected by God since he was already alive.

I thought he went to the spirit in prison after his resurection like He went with satan during his temptations

Mr_Anony:

No they are not. They are irrelevant questions. For instance, you didn't ask the name of the paralytic that Jesus told to take up his bed and walk in order to prove whether it was literal or not. A name is irrelevant to a story's literalism.

Tell me , does the bolded make any sense ?

- The Paralytic man's healing was an EVENT !!

- The Rich man's story was a parable.

Stop this dishonesty , we are supposed to show some integrity as Christians.


In summary , if you want us to take the parable as a real story, we should take everything in the parable literally , which means that :

1. All beggars go to heaven when they die
2. All rich men go to hell when they die
3. People in Paradise can see their relatives in agony and torment with no qualms about it
4. All souls in hell actually have physical bodies with tongues that can lick water and hands that can be dipped in water.


Your Theology is seriously flawed.

Mr_Anony:


I agree that the more verses the better. All I am saying is that verse do not nullify other verses, rather they complement them. Also neither I nor Ihedinobi necessarily hold that Hell is a literal fire however we hold that the torment is undeniable. Please endeavor to get our position right before your critique.

And that's exactly what we are trying to do here...letting the scriptures explain itself.....that's how it works bro.....

One thing I know about your position is that both the righteous and unrighteous would spend eternity in different abodes....isn't it??

Now that's what I am against.....it is either one gains everlasting life or ceases to exist(perish).......that's how it has always been right from adam and eve.......

Mr_Anony:
The question before us is what is the nature of that destruction? It is eternal torment and chaos not annihilation or disappearance so to speak.

But from other verses it is well proven that torment in an eternal fire signifies eternal destruction....complete obliteration of the object,nation or person under consideartion....

Mr_Anony:
No they are not. They are irrelevant questions. For instance, you didn't ask the name of the paralytic that Jesus told to take up his bed and walk in order to prove whether it was literal or not. A name is irrelevant to a story's literalism.

How would you tell me questions like
[1..Where is adam and eve??
2..Was abraham in heaven when Jesus uttered that parable??]Etc....
Are not relevant to a story's literalism??....

Even if we decide to shun the name of the rich man there are many thougth provoking questions that should be asked to verify if Jesus' parable is to be taken literally or not....

Try to look into those questions,not discarding them....then you can rationally come to a conclusion.....

frosbel:

Tell me , does the bolded make any sense ?

- The Paralytic man's healing was an EVENT !!

- The Rich man's story was a parable.

Stop this dishonesty , we are supposed to show some integrity as Christians.


In summary , if you want us to take the parable as a real story, we should take everything in the parable literally , which means that :

1. All beggars go to heaven when they die
2. All rich men go to hell when they die
3. People in Paradise can see their relatives in agony and torment with no qualms about it
4. All souls in hell actually have physical bodies with tongues that can lick water and hands that can be dipped in water.

As I keep reminding you, I have never said that the parable is literal. My point is that names or no names doesn't make the narrative any more or less literal.

You seem very happy to argue over not-so-relevant details of the story, the more important question which you seem very eager to avoid is: What is the message of the story? Why would Jesus use a false condition to Illustrate a truth?

If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless.

William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."

William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18

The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?

Source

Just stumbled upon this and would like to join the discussion. I declear that the bible has the final say in my life. Again, God is holy and holiness is God. He is so holy he cannot look upon sin. He loves the sinner but hates his sin and thus punishes for unconfessed sins. The repentant sinner is shown mercy by virtue of the price Christ payed with his blood. The unrepentant sinner, after physical death is doomed for hell.

frosbel: If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless.

William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."

William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18

The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?

Source

as far as i know, paradise is like a resting place for the righteous dead. It isnt the place we will go to after the rapture

Mckybarf: as far as i know, paradise is like a resting place for the righteous dead. It isnt the place we will go to after the rapture

Can you show me in the bible where literally MAN is said to be an immortal soul.

Kindly let us have bible verses to back up your claims and not church traditional arguments.

frosbel:

Thank You.

frosbel:

Can you show me in the bible where literally MAN is said to be an immortal soul.

Kindly let us have bible verses to back up your claims and not church traditional arguments.

frosbel:

Thank You.

i am not giving any church traditional arguments here. Honestly, i am not good quoting exact verses from scripture though i do remember most of what i read. From what i have known from scripture, it is only the flesh that dies and is corrupted. The spirit doesnt. Christ confirmed this by quoting something 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' just to signify that though they be dead physically, are alive spiritually. Even he made mention of Lazerus and the richman to butteress this point that the sinner and righteous dont share the same place afteq dead.

Mckybarf: Just stumbled upon this and would like to join the discussion. I declear that the bible has the final say in my life. Again, God is holy and holiness is God. He is so holy he cannot look upon sin. He loves the sinner but hates his sin and thus punishes for unconfessed sins. The repentant sinner is shown mercy by virtue of the price Christ payed with his blood. The unrepentant sinner, after physical death is doomed for hell.

You totally miss the whole point of the death of Christ, he came to save us from SIN and it's consequence which is DEATH not eternal torment.

If our punishment was eternal torment then Jesus did not take this punishment for us. Our punishment is death and this is why Jesus came to defeat death , sin and the power behind these vices.

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil - Hebrews 2:14

Mckybarf: i am not giving any church traditional arguments here. Honestly, i am not good quoting exact verses from scripture though i do remember most of what i read. From what i have known from scripture, it is only the flesh that dies and is corrupted. The spirit doesnt. Christ confirmed this by quoting something 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' just to signify that though they be dead physically, are alive spiritually. Even he made mention of Lazerus and the richman to butteress this point that the sinner and righteous dont share the same place afteq dead.

sorry dear bro but may I say Fail !!

ijawkid:

And that's exactly what we are trying to do here...letting the scriptures explain itself.....that's how it works bro.....

One thing I know about your position is that both the righteous and unrighteous would spend eternity in different abodes....isn't it??

Now that's what I am against.....it is either one gains everlasting life or ceases to exist(perish).......that's how it has always been right from adam and eve.......

It is good that we are working towards the same thing. What we are divided on is what it means to "perish" as shown in scripture.

But from other verses it is well proven that torment in an eternal fire signifies eternal destruction....complete obliteration of the object,nation or person under consideartion....

Unfortunately the other verses prove no such thing. They talk about a destruction yes and the wicked being cut-off yes but what is clear also and very vivid is the depiction of conscious suffering for the wicked. You can't just airbrush that part out.

How would you tell me questions like
[1..Where is adam and eve??
2..Was abraham in heaven when Jesus uttered that parable??]Etc....
Are not relevant to a story's literalism??....

Even if we decide to shun the name of the rich man there are many thougth provoking questions that should be asked to verify if Jesus' parable is to be taken literally or not....

Try to look into those questions,not discarding them....then you can rationally come to a conclusion.....

As I said to frosbel, I don't necessarily hold that the story is literal. All I am pointing you to is the message of the story. Remember, a parable is an analogy. The aim is to use a simple story to illustrate a greater truth.

The real questions here are: What is the message of that story? Why would Jesus go through the trouble of describing the sinner experiencing pain if in reality, the sinner will merely cease to exist? Why would Jesus use a false condition to illustrate a greater truth? These are the questions we must consider

truthislight:

by this your statement there was no need for christ to be resurrected by God since he was already alive.

I thought he went to the spirit in prison after his resurection like He went with satan during his temptations

I am seeing comments but no scripture.

Mr_Anony:
It is good that we are working towards the same thing. What we are divided on is what it means to "perish" as shown in scripture.


Unfortunately the other verses prove no such thing. They talk about a destruction yes and the wicked being cut-off yes but what is clear also and very vivid is the depiction of conscious suffering for the wicked. You can't just airbrush that part out.



As I said to frosbel, I don't necessarily hold that the story is literal. All I am pointing you to is the message of the story. Remember, a parable is an analogy. The aim is to use a simple story to illustrate a greater truth.

The real questions here are: What is the message of that story? Why would Jesus go through the trouble of describing the sinner experiencing pain if in reality, the sinner will merely cease to exist? Why would Jesus use a false condition to illustrate a greater truth? These are the questions we must consider

[size=13pt]Jesus Christ came to save us from DEATH not ETERNAL Torment.[/size]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

Proverbs 11:19 The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


For the eternal torment cheer leaders, as horrible as DEATH is and as horrible as the Lake of Fire is , they are not satisfied. It has to be torment for trillions of years.

Will anyone want to worship a GOD who will torture his creatures made in his own image for Trillions and Trillions of years after which the punishment is only just starting. God's creatures being literally fried for ever and ever and ever and ever at over 1000 degrees centigrade.

Is it not true to say that only a SADIST in the person of SATAN will try to malign the character of GOD as he has done for eons ?

Is the catholic church not the conduit through which all these false doctrines flow into the world and is the Pope not Satan's mouth piece ?

How sicker can it get people.

Is Hitler more righteous than GOD, is Genghis Khan more righteousness than GOD , is Stalin more righteous than GOD.

Why are people so proudly and arrogantly hell bent on misrepresenting the character of GOD.

What father will beat his children for weeks and weeks non-stop because they stole a loave of bread ?


Get real , stick to the bible


True sequence of events ;

1. Man dies and is no more
2. Resurrection
3. Righteous get new bodies
4. wicked judged and thrown into the lake of fire with hades and death itself
5. wicked experience punishment in degrees
6. wicked perish forever
7. No more death
8. God's new everlasting kingdom is ushered in
9. The saints enjoy bliss forever and ever
10.the wicked are no more

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death., neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

According to the scripture above, there will be no more death, how can there be no more death when people are still 'DYING' the second death in the lake of fire.


Madness !!!

frosbel: If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless.

William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."

William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18

The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?

Source

Sweeet points.......

Perfect points.....

Pertinent points....

HEAVY WEIGHTS DUKING IT OUT. AM ENJOYING YALL. KEEP BRINGING OUT THESE POSTS. I MAY NEED TO GET SOME WINE FOR THIS HERE LOL. HOLY-TEXTUAL-PUGILISM. HTP.

ijawkid:

Sweeet points.......

Perfect points.....

Pertinent points....

SPP

frosbel:

You totally miss the whole point of the death of Christ, he came to save us from SIN and it's consequence which is DEATH not eternal torment.

And this is the point I keep hammering on: The Second Death by definition is Eternal Torment and Eternal Separation from God it is not an annihilation/disappearance.

obadiah777: HEAVY WEIGHTS DUKING IT OUT. AM ENJOYING YALL. KEEP BRINGING OUT THESE POSTS. I MAY NEED TO GET SOME WINE FOR THIS HERE LOL. HOLY-TEXTUAL-PUGILISM. HTP.

Lol......

Stay of that wine...I thought your whole mouth had been cut off and thrown into gehenna....lol..

I've got orange juice for YA......

We are aLl here to learn my bro......

PROGRESS REPORT
As it stands now, it seems we all have agreed to the existence of a place like hell.
The problem now is the nature of hell.
Correct me If am wrong.
Edited.

Mr_Anony:
And this is the point I keep hammering on: The Second Death is Eternal Torment and Eternal Separation from God it is not an annihilation/diappearance.

What other seperation does a person like satan need from God??

Has satan not being seperate from GOD for aeons??......remember satan will undergo this second death(lake of fire) alongside wrongdeors....you mean satan will be alife forever too??

Second death is total destruction .....that is the penalty dished out to satan and his cohorts.....

Death without the hope of rejuvenation/ressurection......DEATH!!!!!!........

Like I said earlier the nations of EDOM and babylon under went the purnishment or torment of eternal fire....

They are perfect examples of what awaits satan and his cohorts.......

If the person of satan is granted immortality then it means satan has proved God a liar.....

Reyginus: As it stands now, it seems we all have agreed to the existence of a place like hell.
The problem now is the nature of hell.
Anybody who is yet to agree should indicate.

HELL is the common grave of man......

It seems you've not been getting the point....

ijawkid:

HELL is the common grave of man......

It seems you've not been getting the point....

No. I get . The description is not what matters for now, but its existence.
Except you are speaking of a literal grave?

frosbel:


[size=13pt]Jesus Christ came to save us from DEATH not ETERNAL Torment.[/size]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

Proverbs 11:19 The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

My friend frosbel, it is the state of eternal torment that is referred to as the second death. Please get that straight.

For the eternal torment cheer leaders, as horrible as DEATH is and as horrible as the Lake of Fire is , they are not satisfied. It has to be torment for trillions of years.

Will anyone want to worship a GOD who will torture his creatures made in his own image for Trillions and Trillions of years after which the punishment is only just starting. God's creatures being literally fried for ever and ever and ever and ever at over 1000 degrees centigrade.

Is it not true to say that only a SADIST in the person of SATAN will try to malign the character of GOD as he has done for eons ?

Is the catholic church not the conduit through which all these false doctrines flow into the world and is the Pope not Satan's mouth piece ?

How sicker can it get people.

Is Hitler more righteous than GOD, is Genghis Khan more righteousness than GOD , is Stalin more righteous than GOD.

Why are people so proudly and arrogantly hell bent on misrepresenting the character of GOD.

What father will beat his children for weeks and weeks non-stop because they stole a loave of bread ?

Emotional argument again. What father will kill his child made in his image for trying to prevent his ark from falling? Arguing from emotion is a poor way to argue.

Get real , stick to the bible

I suggest you do the same.

True sequence of events ;

1. Man dies and is no more
2. Resurrection
3. Righteous get new bodies
4. wicked judged and thrown into the lake of fire with hades and death itself
5. wicked experience punishment in degrees
please explain exactly what you mean here. . . .and how it fits with the rest of your theology. Also cite scripture
6. wicked perish forever
how do the wicked die if death itself is also "dead"? this should be your first pointer that the nature of the second death is different from what you nominally know death to be
7. No more death
8. God's new everlasting kingdom is ushered in
9. The saints enjoy bliss forever and ever
10.the wicked are no more

My reservations to your account are highlighted in red

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death., neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

According to the scripture above, there will be no more death, how can there be no more death when people are still 'DYING' the second death in the lake of fire.


Madness !!!

Lol, the Second death is eternal torment. It is not a "dying" it is a death.

You quoted Rev 21:4. If you continued reading down to verse 8, you would have seen:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

ijawkid:

What other seperation does a person like satan need from God??

Has satan not being seperate from GOD for aeons??......remember satan will undergo this second death(lake of fire) alongside wrongdeors....you mean satan will be alife forever too??

Second death is total destruction .....that is the penalty dished out to satan and his cohorts.....

Death without the hope of rejuvenation/ressurection......DEATH!!!!!!........

Like I said earlier the nations of EDOM and babylon under went the purnishment or torment of eternal fire....

They are perfect examples of what awaits satan and his cohorts.......

If the person of satan is granted immortality then it means satan has proved God a liar.....

The nature of the devil's destruction is him in torment forever. (see Rev 20:10). Don't try to airbrush it out.

Reyginus: No. I get . The description is not what matters for now, but its existence.
Except you are speaking of a literal grave?

Yeah that is what HELL is....(literal grave).....

ijawkid:

Yeah that is what HELL is....(literal grave).....

Wrong. If it is a mere literal grave, why then would the bible make references to the fire of it?

Mr_Anony:
The nature of the devil's destruction is him in torment forever. (see Rev 20:10) Don't try to airbrush it out.

And verse 14 tells you it is the second death.....DEATH!!!!!!!!.....

If satan does not die then God lied to us.....

I have shown from other scriptures to show explicitly what eternal fire symbolizes....but you are closing your eyes to it....

DEATH and HELL itself will be thrown into that same lake of fire that satan is......

I want you to tell me how you would seperate the purnishment of"" death and hell" from satan and his cohorts there in the lake of fire.........

..........

Now I'll tell you this::::......what ever is the fate of ""death and hell"" would also be the same with satan and his cohorts....

Because they are all occupants in that LAKE of fire......

Mr_Anony:
Wrong. If it is a mere literal grave, why then would the bible make references to the fire of it?

I want you to go back and check out the greek word that was rendered HELL fire in the KJV.......

And let's discuss it......

frosbel: My position is :

Sin is a blight on God's creation and quite horrific in all it's implications.

Before SIN there was bliss, no pain , no death , no tears , no wickedness.

With SIN came all the aforementioned.

God's heart was grieved and he had to do something to restore order while saving this new creature MAN from extinction.

If God had left MAN to stay in the garden and eat from the tree of life , MAN would have lived forever in a sinful state , perpetual misery and always under the wrath of GOD.

So God sentenced MAN to death and creation to corruption with the intent of saving MAN from a catastrophic end.

Romans 8: "20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God" - RSV

God prophesied the salvation of Mankind through his WORD from the seed of a WOMAN.

Between that time and now , God has always punished SIN , for example the flood that destroyed the people of the old world, fire that wiped out Sodom , judgement with pestilence, disease, wars and death.

In all this , it has grieved the heart of GOD that MAN chooses sin over life and so God keeps wooing mankind to him with LOVE to avoid the ultimate punishment which is death.

Ezekiel 18 : 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." - RSV

God's final plan through his SON is to cast all sinners both dead and alive into the lake of fire , to purify the planet from wickedness and inflict appropriate punishment on the wicked with the ultimate destruction of their souls.

The Wrath of GOD is the destruction of all the wicked with fire with the consequence of eternal death , which means exactly what is depicts , death or a cessation of existence.

Death is the enemy of MAN, this is the ultimate wrath of GOD against SIN, MAN's worst enemy as plainly implied in the word of GOD is not eternal torment, something which is totally unscriptural but DEATH.

This last enemy DEATH is so evil that it shall also have to be destroyed .

1 Corinthians 15 :54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Corinthians 15 : 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Revelation 20 : 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

We serve a true God whose judgment is not only just but also unquestionable, unassailable, unimpeachable and unappealable. Speaking of hell and second death and judgment, I want to quickly contribute the following.

Death means the act of dying.
Dead means lifeless, without life.
Then will I not be correct to say that a person that is dead as the Bible puts it, the second death is actually a spirit/soul that is killed by God and consequently, unexistent? If this line of thinking is valid, then such a soul/spirit cannot feel any punishment or any pain or any agony or misery because that soul is dead and is no more, even the soul/spirit! But then, following a more imaginable scenario, such a soul that has been opposed to God while on earth is punished by eternal death which means eternal dying and ironically, such a soul can never get to a point that it will become dead. The punishment I think is in the eternal dying coupled with the pain and agony and misery but above all, the abject absence of the presence of God. It is then peple will know that God is actually omnipresent, cos His omnipresence will never get to such place as hell after the second death.

However, a third thoughtheory is that there is actually a place for the dead, where God abhors with immutable hatred and it is not the place one will desire to be.
My thoughts though.
Still reading. Page 2.