KunleOshob:

Please note that the more established and better organized Orthodox churches don't preach tithes and they don't lack in any thing.

How many of them do you really know? I know and have mentioned several better organised orthodox churches that preach tithes and they don't lack. Try to leave room for a balanced view, especially when you know very little of the real situation on ground.

Ilelobola:

It's interesting I was watching a programme on how foreign aid is used in Africa (well mainly Uganda and Sierria Leone) 2 days ago and with the poverty shown on TV, I thought to myself, what is the role of the church in all this? And I come across this today.

Before the TV programme, I had been seriously reconsidering what I do with my tithes i.e. pay it to the church or actually pay it to an orphanage in Nigeria where I know it will make a positive difference. I still haven't been able to decide and whilst the original article does make score a few points; I am still unclear. I have started paying the equivalent of my tithes to a Nigerian orphanage caring for underprivileged children and still pay my tithes to the church but one has to give way at some point as I cannot afford both for long.

I certainly am not happy when we are shown the church's annual reports that shows that more was spent on visiting guest ministers and other types of hospitality than was actually spent on charity. Something like 10:1! The reports suggests what is given to charity is an after thought. Half the time we are asked to make special contributions for charity if it is Xmas presents for underprivileged children or to build a refuge in Uganda when visiting pastors stay in the best hotels with funds taken from the church's accounts. We build the largest churches in the world but our people languish in poverty.

One day the church has bought a building with the building funds, another day, they say we are renting the building. Do they think people forget? I believe in God but I can't help but feel some pastor's just see tithes as free money.

One of my friends is a treasurer at a new start-up church in London (she's unpaid but it just so happens that she is the only one with a finance qualification in the church and the responsbility fell on her). It was started 5-10years ago and the pastor's bought 2 properties (fully paid up) in London and more in Nigeria in that time. Question is, where did he get the money from , she always reserves her comments.

I do agree with some parts of the original post but if we don't tithe where will the maintenance of the church come out from? Where will pastors and church staff be paid from if we don't pay tithes and would it not be hypocritical to be part of something and not contribute towards the upkeep? These are the questions that I still have no answers to that make me pay my tithes still.

All of these have left me very disillusioned.

Hi Ilelobola,

Very pertinent questions. I’ll post what I believe to be some pointers to the questions you raised. It was a cause for concern for me also at one point, but I looked to God and searched for truth, being willing to follow wherever it led. So whilst I’ll post my thoughts and discuss if you so wish, I’ll heartily exhort that you do likewise. Don't take my word for it, seek truth for yourself.

God served notice long ago that he no longer dwells in physical – houses, temples – buildings , in fact, almost immediately we entered this current dispensation.

Acts 7:48-49 - However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?

Act 17:24 - God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands

Along with physical building, out the window went a mediatory priesthood between God and His own. Oh yeah, and observance of holy days and mandatory sacrifices. Welcome to liberty in Christ.

But men won’t have it; they love their rituals, traditions, position, power, pomp and pageantry. Religion by any other name. The Lord spent a lot of time railing against it and them.

One has to have a clear understanding – from the biblical narrative – of exactly what church is. It’s not buildings made with hands, it’s one of living – people – stones. It’s not an institution, it’s a family. Alive! It’s not an organisation, it’s an organism – a living breathing thing.

As a facade for their love of religion, men will build temples and tell you God lives there. No He don’t. Like the organisation they’ve made it, it’ll need a hierarchy, staff, a board, steering committees etc. If it gets large enough, it’ll make sense to have them full-time and salaried. Like all organisations, it’s reason for being will be itself, it’s own survival and growth, overcoming or eliminating threats to it’s existence. This long stopped being about God by the way, although His name will be used liberally to justify it. Along of course with other religionese such as, “my ministry”, “my pastor “, “my church”.

So don’t wonder why money is spent on the “leaders” or visiting “ministers, rather than the needy, it’s just organisations doing what comes naturally. Did you mention “annual reports~?” Yes O! Organisational/ Institutionalised religion.

Churches don’t require “maintenance”, buildings do. People require care, nurture love and their physical needs met.

And lest I forget, the tithe. A necessary but mostly fraudulent re-introduction by the same religionists – along with temples, mediatory MOG’s, set worship times and “programs” – to fund this delusion or madness, or evil; take your pick.

Without the mandatory tithe and other forms of coerced giving, the “church” – in the space we are talking about namely African/Nigerian/Black Pentacostal type would almost certainly never have got off the ground, or it would cease to exist in it’s current form.

But take the mandatory tithe away, coerced giving away and imagine the shape the church would take. Look no further than the book of Acts.
I’ll stop now, but like I said, happy to discuss further, but you don’t really need me. Seek the truth with all your heart.

Your dissilussionment is almost certainly not with Christ, it's with needless, empty religion.

I wish you well

God bless
TV

Hi again, TV01,

TV01:

And lest I forget, the tithe. A necessary but mostly fraudulent re-introduction by the same religionists – along with temples, mediatory MOG’s, set worship times and “programs” – to fund this delusion or madness, or evil; take your pick.

Without the mandatory tithe and other forms of coerced giving, the “church” – in the space we are talking about namely African/Nigerian/Black Pentacostal type would almost certainly never have got off the ground, or it would cease to exist in it’s current form.

But take the mandatory tithe away, coerced giving away and imagine the shape the church would take. Look no further than the book of Acts.
I’ll stop now, but like I said, happy to discuss further, but you don’t really need me. Seek the truth with all your heart.

Your dissilussionment is almost certainly not with Christ, it's with needless, empty religion.

A few observations. As I read through yours, I sadly shook my head with a solemn thought: when will Christian brethren learn to start loving without this sanctimonious apologetics? I don't mean to come across negatively; but why is it so hard for opposers of tithe to understand that a whole lot of Christians give tithes and offerings WITHOUT a sense of being coerced or feeling mandated to do so? And why dictate to others on how they ought to use their offerings - whether to build places of worship or for other missionary activities? Why is it so easy to be bothered about others who don't bother you, and yet keep repeating the very same thing about mandatory and coerced giving that have been retired ages ago as non-starters?

Grace, bro. . . grace. Enlarge your thinking beyond these complaints. Cheers.

@TV01
You are truly blessed, i cannot but say your previous writing is a divine revelation. Very thought provoking. The truth is there for all those who seek the truth to see.

Yes, the "truth" is there for all who have hearts to seek it in simplicity. This has become a much abused refrain these days, so that even those who are asserting their own biases can also backslap one another with party loyalties. If someone should point out how mistaken they are, it no longer becomes "truth" - their "truth". Truth, if we care at all, was not given to deride people who don't belong to our preferred denominations.

pilgrim.1:

Yes, the "truth" is there for all who have hearts to seek it in simplicity. This has become a much abused refrain these days, so that even those who are asserting their own biases can also backslap one another with party loyalties. If someone should point out how mistaken they are, it no longer becomes "truth" - their "truth". Truth, if we care at all, was not given to deride people who don't belong to our preferred denominations.

I really don't know what you are about, you have already admitted on another thrad that tithing is not compulsary for christians "even though you tithe". I don't have a problem with that even though the basis with which you claim you tithe (melchizedek priesthood) is not relevant to christianity. We are both aware that most pastors preach tithing as compulsary and non-negotiable which you agree with me is wrong. Why then are you always eager to attack me and refrain me from telling people the truth about tithes. I have always said i don't have a problem with people giving, my problem is with the false doctrine being preached and the preachers spreading the false doctrines. All the truths about tithes as been examined and it is glaring it was never directed at christians that is except you want to be in denial.

KunleOshob:

I really don't know what you are about, you have already admitted on another thrad that tithing is not compulsary for christians "even though you tithe".

It is this type of unreasonable projections that makes me feel sorry for folks like you. If something is not compulsory, it does not mean it is condemned. Please let that simple fact sink into your soul. Marriage (as Analytical said sometime) is "NOT compulsory"; but would it not be actually unreasonable for anyone to start saying therefore that it is "condemned"? The problem is with attitudes - not once did God ever condemn it, but your won't ever want to see that simple fact!

KunleOshob:

I don't have a problem with that even though the basis with which you claim you tithe (melchizedek priesthood) is not relevant to christianity.

Did you type that in a hurry? Do you claim that the Melchizedek priesthood is not relevant to Christianity? This is even sadder from someone who prides himself with "telling truth". Make yourself clear and think less about the person you're discussing with.

KunleOshob:

We are both aware that most pastors preach tithing as compulsary and non-negotiable which you agree with me is wrong. Why then are you always eager to attack me and refrain me from telling people the truth about tithes.

Kunle, don't feel "attacked". I cannot sit mute and allow you to "attack" other people with your false assertions, for you have not been telling people the truth about tithes. What you have been doing is mix up vague misconceptions, spring from a false leg about 613 laws which you cannot defend, and then launch your own perjoration against others for your perceived "truth". Calling your attention to that very fact is not to be read as "attacking" you - that is why I have often invited you to look again into these matters. Would you ever want to even pay any attention? If it seems your forte to keep castigating others under the misconception of that false idea about 613 laws, what is my worry? We all know that those who keep schlepping this weak campaign have always done so on the mistaken idea that EVERY tither is coerced and mandated to part with their money! That is not like seeking to discuss, and I wonder why non-tithers have to keep repeating that very same thing EVERY time!

KunleOshob:

I have always said i don't have a problem with people giving, my problem is with the false doctrine being preached and the preachers spreading the false doctrines.

Oh, really? Are you really concerned with false doctrine? Here's a starter: it is false to keep asserting what you don't know about 613 laws being repealed. That is false, Kunle - be concerned about that as well if you're going to be honest!

KunleOshob:

All the truths about tithes as been examined and it is glaring it was never directed at christians that is except you want to be in denial.

I am not in denial but have always invited you guys to examine the issues. If you start off on a false leg about the Law, would it surprise anyone at all that you would spin off with wrong statements - even sometimes making assertions that you have to come back and keep adjusting?


Kunle, I'm not attacking you. . . rather, I invite all non-tithers with a simple challenge: refrain from using false assertions to attack anyone so that we can all discuss honestly, healthily, without sanctimonious pride, and for our own good. Is that too much to bear?

Shalom.

@pilgrim.1
I really don't feel like debating this issue with you anymore there is nothing more to say, we have been through several pages of this issue on another thread and i believe it was sufficiently thrashed out. I don't know why you keep bringing up semantics to win arguements when the facts are obvious. Why do you keep hammering on the mosaic laws i have shown you sufficient scriptures which establishes they are not meant for christians. that is not to say some parts of it might not be relevant or useful. But to say we have to keep Mosaic laws would mean we should all be stoned to death since i am quite sure no christian observes the sabbath rule of not working (including the seventh day adventist). Please stop all this semantics it really pieces me off. and it is a very cheap way of arguing. if you don't have any substance, you don't have to post. The issue being addressed on this thread is "the truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes" and not my opinions or yours. These truths were clearly stated in th opening post and backed with relevant scripture. So what exactly is your beef? The issues raised should be addressed. issues like why don't pastors preach to me that i can eat and drink from my tithes as stated in the bible, issues which make it clear that biblical tithes is produce of the land and not money as pastors falsely preach, issues such as tithes(agricultural produce) for the levites which is every third year not weekly or monthly money/income tithes the characters preach. Instead of addressing these issues you go and cook up unrelated scripture and try and justify this crime against christians.

ps: I would also like to repeat clearly here that the Melchizedek does not have a place in christian doctrine. the fact that he was once compared to Jesus does not make him our christ. Neither were christians directed to observe the occurence of Abraham's one off tithes to him.

Ilelobola:

It's interesting I was watching a programme on how foreign aid is used in Africa (well mainly Uganda and Sierria Leone) 2 days ago and with the poverty shown on TV, I thought to myself, what is the role of the church in all this? And I come across this today.

Before the TV programme, I had been seriously reconsidering what I do with my tithes i.e. pay it to the church or actually pay it to an orphanage in Nigeria where I know it will make a positive difference. I still haven't been able to decide and whilst the original article does make score a few points; I am still unclear. I have started paying the equivalent of my tithes to a Nigerian orphanage caring for underprivileged children and still pay my tithes to the church but one has to give way at some point as I cannot afford both for long.

I certainly am not happy when we are shown the church's annual reports that shows that more was spent on visiting guest ministers and other types of hospitality than was actually spent on charity. Something like 10:1! The reports suggests what is given to charity is an after thought. Half the time we are asked to make special contributions for charity if it is Xmas presents for underprivileged children or to build a refuge in Uganda when visiting pastors stay in the best hotels with funds taken from the church's accounts. We build the largest churches in the world but our people languish in poverty.

One day the church has bought a building with the building funds, another day, they say we are renting the building. Do they think people forget? I believe in God but I can't help but feel some pastor's just see tithes as free money.

One of my friends is a treasurer at a new start-up church in London (she's unpaid but it just so happens that she is the only one with a finance qualification in the church and the responsbility fell on her). It was started 5-10years ago and the pastor's bought 2 properties (fully paid up) in London and more in Nigeria in that time. Question is, where did he get the money from , she always reserves her comments.

I do agree with some parts of the original post but if we don't tithe where will the maintenance of the church come out from? Where will pastors and church staff be paid from if we don't pay tithes and would it not be hypocritical to be part of something and not contribute towards the upkeep? These are the questions that I still have no answers to that make me pay my tithes still.

All of these have left me very disillusioned.

You need not be disillusioned about giving to God's work
May I refer you to pilgrim.1's reply to another threadhere

I will encourage you to read the Bible yourself, starting with the New Testament and relate what you do and what your pastor/church is doing to what Christ and the early Apostles did in establishing CHRISTianity vis-a-vis tithes (10%) and/or offering (any % of income) for the purpose of maintaining the church & its workers (including pastor) and meeting the needs of teh less priviledged in their midst then.
May God continue to bless you and make you a shining example, like the light on the hilltop for your giving to the orphanage-Amen
I always ask my church/pastor focused friends and relations, who they taught would have been raptured of the Samaritan, priest and levite in the Luke 10: 25-37 story

anonimi:

I always ask my church/pastor focused friends and relations, who they taught would have been raptured of the Samaritan, priest and levite in the Luke 10: 25-37 story

Brilliant question

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim.1
I really don't feel like debating this issue with you anymore there is nothing more to say, we have been through several pages of this issue on another thread and i believe it was sufficiently thrashed out. I don't know why you keep bringing up semantics to win arguements when the facts are obvious.

It has become the often repeated song to appeal to semantics when you no longer wish to discuss a matter, that doesn't make it true. My discussions are not about winning an argument as much as you desire to keep on that road i it appeals best to you.

KunleOshob:

Why do you keep hammering on the mosaic laws i have shown you sufficient scriptures which establishes they are not meant for christians. that is not to say some parts of it might not be relevant or useful.

See what I mean by constant adjustments in your posts? Please stop confusing yourself and your readers by constantly asserting that 613 laws of Moses were REPEALED by Christ's death when you know you cannot defend! You will never be able to defend that fallacy, Kunle; so why do you keep using that as a false leg to condemn what God never asked you to condemn? It is because that campaign of opposing tithes has often been based on this fallacy that is why I often invite those using them to be go back and check out their untennable ideas before trying to pride themselves on this mistaken adventure of "telling truth" while assuming others have no clue. You can now adjust the "613" figure you constantly claim, or keep asserting it as such and then come back to complain when they are pointed out as untrue and unreasonable. If you are not sure of the so-called 613 laws, cease from pushing that idea - it is false, Kunle.

KunleOshob:

But to say we have to keep Mosaic laws would mean we should all be stoned to death since i am quite sure no christian observes the sabbath rule of not working (including the seventh day adventist). Please stop all this semantics it really pieces me off.

Get pissed off as much as you want, even though there's no reason in mine to make you so. I have constantly appealed to you to be careful what you say about the fallacy of this 613 laws you assert were repealed. Many people who have borrowed that fallacy have been using it to attack others on this issue of tithe; and when their attention is called, they get "pissed off"! How could non-tithers be using this false assertion to castigate others over this matter when they cannot defend it at any time? Every time (here on this forum or elsewhere) when this issue is discussed, I have tried to be reasonable - my wonder in it all is that those using them have never gone back to check, but they would rather get so deeply offended.

Let me help you out here (if you can take it anyways). Whoever broached the fallacy that "613 laws of Moses" were repealed by Christ's death only offered it because such a person had no clue what they were saying. It's not wise to be offended when asked to go back and check it out. Sadly, this fallacy is what non-tithers constantly appeal to when condemning tithes and tithers; and one should wonder why these fellows can justify their own mistaken assertions and use that fallacy to oppose tithes. The only thing they can do is go back and count the 613 laws again and come back and show us that they were ALL repealed - or make the necessary adjustments and not use the same fallacy to slur tithers. Don't get pissed off - be willing to check the simple truth about this matter instead of getting so upset!

KunleOshob:

if you don't have any substance, you don't have to post.

What substance is there in posting the same fallacy about 613 laws as having been repealed? Do you have to keep posting it every time on tithes when you know you can't defend it?

KunleOshob:

The issue being addressed on this thread is "the truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes" and not my opinions or yours. These truths were clearly stated in th opening post and backed with relevant scripture. So what exactly is your beef?

I have no beef with anyone. Truth be told as simply, people should not use their own fallacies to push the idea of telling "truth". It is from the same Scripture I have shown that idea to be a fallacy, so what is the reason for getting pissed off?

KunleOshob:

The issues raised should be addressed. issues like why don't pastors preach to me that i can eat and drink from my tithes as stated in the bible, issues which make it clear that biblical tithes is produce of the land and not money as pastors falsely preach, issues such as tithes(agricultural produce) for the levites which is every third year not weekly or monthly money/income tithes the characters preach. Instead of addressing these issues you go and cook up unrelated scripture and try and justify this crime against christians.

Sorry O, Kunle. I'm not worried about your accusations - if you invited a discussion, all the more I have ben glad to partake. Who cooked up the very thing about 613 laws being repealed for which I got really serious to call your attention to it? Who has been saying he would never respond to my posts again while I have been inviting a dialogue? It's way too easy for people to justify their accusations and yet preach about "love". Well done.

KunleOshob:

ps: I would also like to repeat clearly here that the Melchizedek does not have a place in christian doctrine. the fact that he was once compared to Jesus does not make him our christ. Neither were christians directed to observe the occurence of Abraham's one off tithes to him.

There's a difference between the priesthood of Melchizedek and Melchizedek himself. You mentioned "melchizedek priesthood" as having no place in Christianity, why drop the "priesthood" now and pretend it was all about Melchizedek alone?

@KunleOshob,

I don't want to drag any issues with you. If you are happier using unhealthy assertions to justify your arguments, please yourself. It does not necessarily mean you have been presenting the truth; and perhaps it may be more helpful to present your views and save the unjustified slobbers. If not, do as makes you happiest.

Shalom.

For the benefit of those who maybe confused concerning Pilgrim.1 severally repeated statements on wether the Mosaic laws are relevant to christianity or not, i would post relevant scripture and allow you to judge. I had declined repeating this posts b4 but as the saying goes a lie repeated too often assumes a dimension of truth, hence i have to clearify things cos it is now quite glaring to me that someone is deliberately trying to manipulate scripture.

Hebrews 7:11-18:

11 So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron?[a]

12 And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it. 13 For the priest we are talking about belongs to a different tribe, whose members have never served at the altar as priests. 14 What I mean is, our Lord came from the tribe of Judah, and Moses never mentioned priests coming from that tribe.
15 This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16 Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless.

More on the laws and it's irrelevance to christianity

Galatians 3:10-25:

   10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”[a] 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” 12[b] This way of faith is very different from the way of law,[/b] which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”[c]

   13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.

  15 Dear brothers and sisters, here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. 16 God gave the promises to Abraham and his child. And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ. 17 This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise. 18 For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

   19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.


20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[a] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

KunleOshob:

For the benefit of those who maybe confused concerning Pilgrim.1 severally repeated statements on wether the Mosaic laws are relevant to christianity or not, i would post relevant scripture and allow you to judge. I had declined repeating this posts before but as the saying goes a lie repeated too often assumes a dimension of truth, hence i have to clearify things because it is now quite glaring to me that someone is deliberately trying to manipulate scripture.

The lie repeated about "613 mosaic law" being repealed by Christ's death assumes a dimension of truth, yes? Why don't you share on that instead of making all these pretences and screaming about pilgrim.1? Kunle, please be gentlemanly enough to go to those 613 Mosaic law and show us how you have repealed ALL those 613 Mosaic laws by Christ's death.

And as you do so hastily without a consideration for the appeal I have severally offered you, please spend some time looking at the same verse I have often offered for your consideration:

Romans 3:31 - "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law".

You can scream about pilgrim.1 as if I ever tried to piss you off; but as you do so, please have a heart reconsider your own assumptions instead of taking this personally. If all 613 Mosaic Laws have been repealed (your own asserted word), you have no business being selective.

More of what the bible as to say about the law and christianity

Galatians 5:4-21:
4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
  5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

  7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

  11 Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended. 12 I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves.

  13 For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. 14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself. 15 But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.


  16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.
  19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

kunle this matter still dey give you night mares.  se what people said in linda's blog

ababoypart2 said,
I don't buy the con, so I dont give

November 13, 2008 12:19 PM


Anonymous said,
Hey Linda.

i 100% believe in it, let me just give u a little example from, last saturday i lost £250, the following sunday i got a ticket fine for parking on a doulble yellow line and monday i went through a no entry zon ewith all tcket and fine coming up to £180. all the people i told there was only one question they asked "are you paying your tithe?" and which i have not being paying for the last couple of months due to the credit cruch. so i believe in it and iif you hve the opportunity to do so, u should pay your tithe too, because god will repay it back in million time and more doors will also open for u.
Also can i say is what you are saying if you are a christian is you don't believe in bible or jesus, because it is the bible, that you should give 10% of you income and earnings.
that's all i have to say, its up to u to decide if you want to pay it or not.

November 13, 2008 1:10 PM


Jayjazzy said,
Hi u, I strongly believe in the concept of tithing, it works and trust me it isnt a lie, even for those who dont really believe in God, tithing works. When i was in school and i would have this not too much allowance, i would still try to pay and i rarely lacked that period, it was crazy. and oops scary picture, we need to be grateful for life

November 13, 2008 1:34 PM


Gloria said,
Linda, i am not a Pastor but since you asked, i'm giving you my personal opinion as a Christian. I also used to struggle with tithing initially until i realised that if i died today, i'd be unable to even enjoy the mere 10% of the money that i was trying to protect in the first place.

God has instructed us to tithe, so we should. If we think deeply about it, God is only asking for 10% of our earnings so we have the other 90% to keep. He also said that if you tithe, He would open the windows of Heaven and bless you so much that you would not have enough room to take it in (Malachi 3:10-12). God cannot lie, so i believe Him.

Abraham tithed (Genesis 14:20) and God blessed him very much. He was one of the richest people in the bible (Genesis:13:2) and he still went to Heaven. So he was rich both on earth and now in Heaven.

I know there are people that argue that pastors use our money for personal gain yada yada, but my own stance is that i am giving my tithes and offerings to God, so as far as i am concerned, i have no business with what happens to the money after i have given it. God did not appoint me to investigate what pastors are doing with my money. We should let God be the judge of that.

Take care

November 13, 2008 1:41 PM


9ja's OT said,
tithe is God's commandment not an option, it does not matter if you beleive in it or not. if you do it He will prosper you more than you can imagine!! just 10% of your total earnings

November 13, 2008 2:53 PM


~Mimi~ said,
Tithing is a requirement if one says one is a Christian i.e. a follower of Christ, because it is there in the bible, and one may say it is in the Old testament but there are cases in the new testatament where offerings (which i believe included tithes)were given, also

Tithing is an avenue of opening up the blessings of God.

Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

I guess it just all boils down to how much of the bible one believes or not.

November 13, 2008 3:08 PM


Bukky said,
No you are not a bad person but you are ignorant on spiritual principles. Let me show you a more excellent way.
Giving of Tithes (10% of your income or increase) and offerings are ways of showing God that you appreciate and honour Him for being your provider and life giver; that you also trust him to bless the remaining 90% of your income.
See Mal 3:10-12 (Please read). Paying tithes has its blessings
1. The windows of heaven (divine ideas, provisions) things that money can not buy are guaranteed to you.
2. The Lord will rebuke the devourer (such as sickness, unexpected/ unnecessary expenses, hole in pockets e.t.c) for your sake.
As a UK residence i pay my taxes and you can pay 14%, 17% or 25% depending on if you are a low income earner or a high earner.

In conclusion, just as much as taxes have their benefits(good roads, healthcare, good educational system etc, so paying tithes have its spiritual/ financial benefits as well. Try it and prove the Lord and he will show himself strong on your behalf.

To pay your tithes, make sure it is paid in your home church where you are being nourished spiritually.

I have been doing it since i was 16years old in Nigeria, i'm now 32yrs with my family in the UK and God has been faithfull over the years.

Regards,
Bukky

November 13, 2008 3:24 PM


Anonymous said,
HI girl!
Do u believe in God? Do you understand how he works? Do you understand why the sun shines when it does and why He chose to bring you into the world when He did? many questions, The awesomeness of God is beyond human comprehension. When God says we should give our tithe, it is not because He needs ur money. Tithe is meant to cater for the needy and the fatherless in the church. Paying my tithe has brought numerous blessings on my life because i keyed into the promise of God that He would rebuke the destroyer for my sake if i paid my tithe (its in the book of Malachi). My belief is that everything i have comes from God so my tithe does not hurt my pocket. However, everything you do must be because U believe.

November 13, 2008 3:28 PM


Anonymous said,
I forgot to add that u shd be open to God's Word. Research on the Scriptures URSELF. Go through scriptures that have to do with tithes. Bless you!

November 13, 2008 3:42 PM


Russell Earl Kelly, PHD said,
1. Post-Calvary Christian giving principles in Second Corinthians are superior to tithing. (1) Giving is a "grace.” (2) Give yourself to God first. (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will. (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift. (5) Give out of a sincere desire. (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability. ( Give to produce equality. (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually. (11) Give to continue growing spiritually. (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached.

2. Abraham's tithed in Genesis 14 in obedience to pagan tradition. (1) He did not "freely" give. (2) His was NOT a holy tithe from God’s holy land by God’s holy people under God’s holy Covenant. (3) His was only from pagan spoils of war required in many nations. (4) In Num. 31, God required 1% of spoils. (5) His tithe to his priest-king was a one-time event. (6) Not from his personal property. (7) Kept nothing for himself. ( Is not quoted to endorse tithing. (9) Most commentaries explain 14:21 as pagan Arab tradition, it is contradictory to explain the 90% of 14:21 as pagan, while insisting the 10% of 14:20 was obedience to God’s will. (10) If Abraham were an example for Christians to give 10%, he should also be an example for Christians to give the other 90% to Satan, or to the king of Sodom! (11) As priests, neither Abraham nor Jacob had a Levitical priesthood to support; they probably left food for the poor at their altars.

3. Although money was common and essential for worship for over 1500 years, biblical tithes were always only food increased by God from inside Israel (Lev. 27:30, 32; see site for all 16 texts).

4. Since only farmers and herdsmen tithed, there was no minimum standard requirement for most. Tradesmen such as carpenters (Jesus), Peter (fishermen) and Paul (tentmakers) did not qualify as tithe-payers. The poor and Gentiles did not tithe.

5. Tithing was only commanded to national Israel under the terms of the Old Covenant. Tithing was never commanded to the Church after Calvary (Ex 19:5-6; Lev 27:34; Mal 4:4; Mt 23:23 matters of the law).

6. Those who received the first whole tithe did not minister atonement (Num. 18:21-24; Neh10:37b). Priests only received 1% (a tenth of the tithe) (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38).

7. In exchange for receiving tithes, both Levites and priests forfeited all rights to permanent land inheritance inside Israel (Num. 18:20-26).

8. Firstfruits are not the same as tithes. Firstfruits were a very small token offering (Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-37; Num 18:13-17). Tithes were the tenth and not the best; only 1% of the tithes included the best (Lev. 27:32, 33).

9. There were 4 O.T. tithes: (1) Government taxes (1 Sam 8:14-17). (2) Levitical (Num. 18:21-28; Neh. 10:37-39). (3) Festival (Deu 12:1-19; 14:22-26). (3) Poor tithe every 3rd year (Deu 14:28-29; 26:12-13).

10. Tithes were often taxes used to support Levite [politicians (1 Chron, chap 23 to 26; esp 23:2-5; 26:29-32; 27:5). Tithes never supported mission work (Ex 23:32; Heb 7:12-18).

11. OT Levitical tithes were brought first to the Levitical cities and not to the Temple (Num 18; Neh 10:37-39; 2 Chron 31:15-19). Most Levites required tithes in their Levitical cities where 98% stayed (Num 35, Josh 20, 21).

12. Malachi 3 is the most abused tithing text in the Bible. (1) Malachi is OT and is never quoted in the New Covenant to validate tithing. (2) Tithes are still only food. (3) His audience reaffirmed the OT curses (Neh.10:28-29). (4) The blessings and curses of tithing are identical to and inseparable from those of the entire Mosaic Law (Deu 28:12, 23-24; Gal 3:10/Deu 27:26). (5) “You” in Malachi refers to the dishonest priests and not the people (1:6-14; 2:1-10; 2:13 to 3:1-5). (6) The “whole” tithe never went to the Temple! (Neh 10:37b). (7) The Levitical cities must be included in a correct interpretation. ( The 24 courses of Levites and priests must be included. (9) The “storehouse” in the Temple was only several rooms (Neh 13:5, 9). (9) “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse” only makes contextual sense if it is only commanding dishonest priests to replace the tithes they had removed from it or had failed to bring to it.

13. The OT Temple and priesthood have been replaced by the priesthood of every believer. NT elders and pastors more closely resemble OT prophets who were not supported by tithes.

14. Tithing was not legalized as a church law until AD 777. If was not introduced as a local regional law until the 6th century. See any reputable encyclopedia.

15. NT giving principles are: freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls.

From the book, Should the Church Teach Tithing?
www.tithing-russkelly.com russell-kelly@att.net

November 13, 2008 5:04 PM


Anonymous said,
Hello Linda how r u?

ok first of, NO u r not a bad person for not paying thites lol,

d thing is if u believe in God or are a practicing xtian then u r expected to pay ur thites. there are sooooooo many verses in d bible that command us 2 pay our thites and if u believe in Gods word (i mean every word of it) then we hve to pay our thites

but i think we xtians (esp me lol) tend to do selective bible readin where we choose parts of the bible to follow that suit us or does not take us out of our comfort zone (u knw wat i mean abi) but we shouldnt do this

more so, if u really think about it at d end of d day everything we own belongs to God in d first place and HE is so kind that he asks us to keep 90% of his wealth and give him back only 10% and not only that HE goes on to add soooooo much more blessings to what we already have, malachi 3: 10 says "Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my temple. if u do says the Lord of Heavens army, I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you wont have room enough to contain it"

so put God to d test and encourage urself to thite, cheerfully lol
mwah xxxxxxxxxxxx

November 13, 2008 5:08 PM


Anonymous said,
Like you, I dont believe in giving tithes, God doesnt need anyone's money and I personally believe that he hasn't like the tax man, placed a percentage of one's earnings that he prefers for you to part with to show 'gratitude & reverence' to him, i think its good to give but not necessarily to the 'church', loving your neighbour as urself and doing the best u can do for ppl in need is true service to God and man and not the imposed tax by the church on your earnings, even giving offering in church for me is unnecessary. i'ld rather feed the hungry and give the needy than put my money in 'offering' to God during a church service, its all fake and eye service if u ask me, not surprising that ppl think i'm nuts and i will go to 'hell'! as if money ever bought anyone a ticket to heaven! lol

November 13, 2008 6:34 PM


Anonymous said,
I think it's a personal decision. What don't you believe in? You must have seen it in the bible. Or are you saying you don't understand why you should give up 10% of what's yours to God, when he doesnt really need the money?
The same bible says "give it shall be given unto u, "and all the rest it says.

Titles are used for the work of God. You dont expect God to send physical cash from heaven( drop like manna)to do stuff for the church do it. It's used for church repairs, payn church workers, printing booklets and most stuff d church will use money for.

Some pple think "oh that my red eyed(greed) pastor and his flashy wife will use my money to better themselves". I give and ask God to use for the advancement of his word.Whatever the church uses it for is their business. And God blesses me immeasurably whenever I pay tithes.

November 13, 2008 7:50 PM


Anonymous said,
Wow,I made first!At first I didnt want to make my comment,wanted to come back on a latter because of the , "Tithe Offering",
Anyways,as a Christian and believe so much in it,it is a must for everyone both christians and non-christians apart must take part,not everything,that's why He didnt ask of all of it(because He knows it will be difficult) but just one-tenth of it to say Thank You Lord for this month and for giving and providing me with this.
But as per you,I dont think u are wrong(dont have to judge u),since u dont believe in it but I advice u do because it's anoda way of thanking God and wat can we do that will be enuf for God,so ,think about it and start now and the funny thing is,There is Always a Reward for Paying Your Tithe.
Take care and keep doing wat u know how to do best,luv ya!


Oluwayemisi

November 13, 2008 7:54 PM


Anonymous said,
Please take the picture down.

November 13, 2008 8:28 PM


InCogNaija said,
i believe in tithing, i think when you give, you receive. Even circular organizations are taping into that now,
it doesnt make u a bad person that u dont do it, but you can receive more if and when you do.

November 13, 2008 8:30 PM


KAM BABY said,
Its a miracle little Rachael still alive. But oh my, wat a gory sight! I'm tempted to ask u to have mercy and take it down, but i wont. I think i'll save it on my computer so that whenever i see it, i will seriously thank God for my life.Here i am complaining about the little headaches i have in the mornings, and the fact that my tummy has started coming out when a girl as little as that is going through so much suffering. Thank you father for my life, and i pray you visit Rach and do something 'bout her condition.

Now about tithes

I pay once in a while, but that dosen't mean i dont believe in it. Those few times i pay, God showers me with blessings, and i'm always aware that it's as a result of my tithe. My sister pays her tithe regularly, and i tell u the truth, Malachai 3:10&11 happens in her life, she dosen't have room anymore to recieve the blessings God pours out on her.

Infact, there's no need for long 'tory. Try it oneday and see u'll testify!

November 13, 2008 9:33 PM


Anonymous said,
I don't believe in tithing either. The idea that you have to give exactly 10% every time regardless of your situation to a house of God is just something that the Holy men of those days just made up. Last month I gave a large sum of money to a friend to help her out, and the pastor still expects me to give him 10% of my salary, not happening. I think that you can give whatever amount you feel like giving, as long as it is from your heart, and it doesn't have to be to the church, it could be to a friend or family member in need.

Jesus said we should love others, treat them the way we want to be treated, and that is all that matters. Tithing is not a cardinal rule of mine

November 13, 2008 9:43 PM


Anonymous said,
Tithe and offering is to one's own benefit, it doesn't make God any richer. The reason for it is for the running and upkeep of the church and to help the needy, and also for the well-being of church workers. Think about it, if no one pays their tithes and offering, how will church buildings be built/rent paid for?How will equipments, chairs etc be bought? who will pay the salary of full-time pastors? how will the needy in the church/society be catered for? etc,
Check Malachi:3:8-12,
Not giving ur tithe and offering is robbing God according to the scripture, and it also prevents u from fully maximizing ur potentials esp. financially. Personally, i have seen God's wonderous promises come to pass for me because i tithe and give offerings, some pple say they wont give because the funds r sometimes misused, well that is not my business to judge, lest i misjudge, let God judge them that do so, all thats important is that u've done ur own part, and u'll still receive ur blessings regardless. I cant count how many times God has mysteriously provided me money from nowhere wen i am in need of it, i'm talkn of serious money o!, and in really mysterious ways like money appearing in my account from nowhere even after verifying with the bank and proving that it wasn't a mistake on the bank's part, this has happened to me twice this yr, the first was $3,000 and the second $300, not to mention the numerous favor of God thru pple, I tell u, giving is to one's own benefit, it really opens up the windows of heaven in ur favor in a way u will not believe!, "give and it shall be given unto. Good measure; pressed down, shaken and runneth over shall men receive!", The head and tail of the story is that if u take care of God(i.e. his ministry), he will take care of u too, even more!

PS: even my plane ticket to naija was a mystery on its own, i fasted and prayed, reminding God of my tithing and offering, challenging him to fulfill his promises, and that same day someone paid for it!, we're talkn $1,400 o!, this was at a time wen i had not even a shi-shi, totally broke, God is not a joke, and his word is not either!

Nma

November 13, 2008 10:39 PM


Healthynaija said,
Thanks for your post Linda, your blog is a joy to follow. Anyway, I grew up tithing and have tried my best to tithe to the best of my ability. It is a Biblical principle that I think Christians should try and follow, I understand that some Churches take advantage of peoples tithes(that's why we should try to find a good Word based Church, so our tithes can be used to reach out to people, provide for communities and do things that the Church will have to do in place of the government).
In Malachi 3, it says " Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it".
I don't tithe for reward sake but I promise you there have been times that all I had in my bank account was my tithe amount and I tithed(sp?) and God really showed up for me. This is just my opinion though like you asked, sorry I didn't mean to get preachy. God bless you and your magazine and all your future endeavors. Have a great day.

November 14, 2008 1:13 AM


Anonymous said,
well, with regards to ur tithe offering, the truth is clear. the bible says it all-without faith, it is impossible to please God. i really dunno y u dnt believe in tithe offering, but ma dear, if u really believe in the bible and u believe in God, then i fink it should be d whole of it nd not part of it. ma dear, u cnt choose wat to believe in the bible nd wat not to believe-u r either in or out.and for ur best interest, i find you shld consider the benefits of tithe offering.the mistake we all make is we fink we are paying our tithe to God. He owns all things already. we are just giving Him back a 10th of wat He owns already as honour and thanksgiving.at the end of the day, its for our good cus den He opens the windows of heaven unto us. please do not make the mistake of limiting the blessings of tithe offering to monetary terms alone.think abt the spiritual battles dat are fought for us,the favour,unconditional love of God,grace,mercy,and even life itself. for all these, dnt you fink a 10th of wat u earn is even too small.

November 14, 2008 1:40 AM


Anonymous said,
In regards to tithing, from my opinion it all depends on your faith.
Personally i tithe because it has made me understand that not only will i constantly receive uncommon blessings it also stops the enemy from interfering with my finances which could either be through poverty, hospital bills, business loss that involves huge sums of money.
Also tithing makes us learn how to be good givers and greatful to God. Some may argue this but like i initially said it depends on ur faith.

November 14, 2008 1:49 AM


Anonymous said,
Linda read malachi 3: 8-12, all u need to know about tithing is stated clearly in that verse
wendu

November 14, 2008 2:07 AM


Nikky said,
hey Linda! on the issue of tithe and offering, that's a delicate issue n i think it depends on personal conviction and the belief each individual has about it.but one thing is that when we believe it or not, it's a principle in the bible that God says we should pay tithe with the promise that we should try him and see if He would not open the windows of heaven and rebuke the devourer for our sake.so for this reason i stive to pay my tithe and i pray with expectation on it, and i can happily say that i get results.that's my opinion.

November 14, 2008 2:26 AM


Paris said,
i dont believe in it either and i'm like the most generous person u'll ever meet.
there's 2much corruption in the world and i'll be damned if my money is making some man of God cruising around in expensive cars, flying 1st class around d world and building mansions when people are suffering.

i'll gladly donate that money 2 charity and know where my money is going 4 real.
besides isn't that sumtn in the old testament?? Only in naija

November 14, 2008 2:49 AM


Paris said,
oh and that lil kid pic is so sad. it's been circulating the net for months now.

November 14, 2008 2:49 AM


Anonymous said,
Hey Linda, I don't have a problem with tithe, but I just have a problem with greedy pastors, who have manipulated and taken the bible out of context to get money from the congregation. I give not based on what any pastor says or any traditions, I give coming from my heart, doesn't even matter how much but I try to give HIM my best, because God deserves it all. All these pastors bother so much about how much people should give or how they should give etc and not even mention anything about how our lifestyle should be pleasing to God. Mehn, I've been going through so much, and I was so down today, crying, and even to the point of wishing I was dead or should die. But while all these thoughts was running through my mind, I kept hearing, be thankful and grateful that you have all your organs correct and you are still alive, because there are people out there who don't have, and are thankful to be alive. We are busy getting frustrated, angry, sad, depressed about what we don't have, and we forget to be thankful for what we have which is life, and been able to wake up every morning. The pic of the little just brought tears to my eyes, and I will definitely keep her in my prayers.

November 14, 2008 5:06 AM


World Famous Simon Seez said,
I'm sure u know whats the right thing to do, i miss payin it sometimes which is bad, but not ti pay at all and not to believe in it is not right,

give God whats due him,

November 14, 2008 7:46 AM


Linda Ikeji said,
I don't mind giving out 10% of my earnings, I really dont mind. God has blessed me so much, but I'm not comfortable giving it to the church, they have too much already. Is it ok to give it to the needy? Is that not tithe?

November 14, 2008 8:35 AM


Nikky said,
hey linda! in response to ur comment.tithe is different from church offering and it's also different from what you give to charity.i do all those things.but the harder one for me to do is tithing,and i keep striving to do it but whenever i do it, God blesses me according to what i ask for and more.i used to think it wasn't fair for a student to be paying tithe, but since i tried it i think i prefer to pay than not to.the kind of rewards i get are not understandable and unexplainable.try it and see.don't even bother concerning urself with whether the church ahs enough or more already.just do it, and u can still continue to give to charity.it just means more blessings.there are certain and different rewards for each.trust me its important

November 14, 2008 9:25 AM


Sykik said,
Dearie,

I also don't want to preach however, God's commandment about tithe is explicit.Malachi 3:10 says it should be brought into his storehouse. I am sure your church has a welfare team who donates to the needy and the less priviledged. Anything you as a person gives to the needy is not tithe. Also like Gloria pointed out earlier, obey God and not bother yourself about whether the church needs it or not. You are givig it to God and not the church, it is God that rewards/blesses and not the church.

November 14, 2008 9:38 AM


Anonymous said,
Linda dear, like I said before, like u, I dont believe in tithing.As we all know, God never came down to write the bible and it was written by ppl 'inspired' by God, as we also know, the bible was used as a political tool to control ppl and kings modified its contents to serve their personal goals, some ppl here are saying to withold tithe is 'wrong'! i hate it when religious apologists utter such drivel, who died and made them judge? nothing is this world is absolute except God thus there is nothing that is fundamentally wrong or right, that one believes in something doesn't make it 'right' or 'wrong',

anyway, i digress, giving is always good, and no, it doesn't have to be to the church, left to me, the church shud be the last place money is given in charity, the church has even become more corrupt than most govt ministries in nigeria, giving with a happy heart, free from coercion and doing the best u can for ur fellow man (in both word,thought & deed -financially & otherwise) is IMO what God expects from us and not a mandatory 10% of ur earnings to be given to HIS church! BOLLOCKS!

at the end of the day, u must do what u are most comfortable with, and i admire the fact that u are one of the few born-christians that is not afraid to question biblical reasoning rather than swallow whatever is fed to by mr pastor hook, line and sinker, u are on the path to true spiritual greatness and would like u to know today that u intuition is GOD speaking to you (no, he didnt stop speaking directly to us after adam and eve! lol) and that my friend is more reliable than anything the bible can ever tell u (which altho hold some truth & wisdom, remains secondary information)

Bottomline; go with ur gut feeling!

November 14, 2008 1:33 PM


Anonymous said,
Miss Linda, it seems my comments were not published. Anyways, Peronally, you can give to the needy if you do not want to give to the church, It is all about the sincerity from your heart. Personally i have been giving my tithe to the less privilege, to those on the streets or even the blind people.

November 14, 2008 2:34 PM


Anonymous said,
It all depends, my tithe often goes to the less privilege not the church, In as much as its 10percent i believe its going out to God.
I give my tithe to the poor i do not see it as charity donation or offering, it is between myself and my God who sees indepthly that i have seperated the money uno him. And just like you feel Linda, i feel the same way about giving to he church personally because i feel there are those out there wo need money and they cannot afford it yet i believe my giving them my tithe would help alleviate their sufferings. In other words, i feel tithing should not be limited to church only. After alll in the Genesis, Abraham gave his one tenth offering otherwise known as tithe to MELCHIZEDEK AND Melchizedeck was a Priest.
Linda iike i said oooo, its the sincerity and genuineness of your heart of paying your tithe that matters, I hope this helps, Love always your blog fan.

November 14, 2008 2:44 PM


Nollywood Forever said,
Is that really a real picture? I'm in shock!

November 14, 2008 4:37 PM


SET said,
If you believe the Boble you have to believe in tithing as well. You may not do it but its a truth once its in the Bible. I give to others, church, orphanage, someone in need or so, i dont subject myself to paying every month but I do frequently throughout the year. One day I hope I can do it all the time.

November 14, 2008 5:11 PM


Anonymous said,
May God bless that child and heal her according to his will.

Being frank, it is clear that God blesses in many ways, not strictly finance, so also tithing must not be strictly finance and must not always go to your local church, give your time, effort to charity, help the needy, be your neighbours keeper. Those are what each will be judged on, not by the 10% each contributes to church.

I know people who are these things and are blessed in the true sense, again it saddens to note that Nigerians particularly associate blessing with money.

Tithe as your soul guides you,not according to the interpretation and dictates of 'hungry' Pastors

Pete

November 14, 2008 5:16 PM


Nikky said,
i would like to add one thing, i think the issues of 'fake pastors' , chuch spending money, most esp.in Nigeria are over exaggerated and generalized.if u read passages in the bible that discuss tithing, i believe they were pretty precise and straight to the point.there are also other parts of the bible that discuss offerings,charity donations.charity giving, offering n tithe are different thns.pls do not interpret the bible in ways that would fit ONLY ur thinking and mentality.there r some parts in the bible that u can interpret in multiple ways, but i believe the one about tithe was precise enough for anyone to read n know that it should be paid directly to church as tithe!do not obsessively or overly concern urself with wat is being done with the tithe, cos thats when a wrong spirit starts giving u stupid ideas and suggestions on y u shouldnt pay tithe, remember the enemy enemy wants to deny u of ur blessings as much as possible.i;m not sayn u shouldnt be concerned on how ur tithe is being spent, but pls do no try to reason for God.pay tithe to the church where u r constantly being groomed n nourished spiritually n if ur pastor does the wrong thing with ur tithe, i believe God is powerful enough to deal with such pastor and still bless u!remember Tithe is a covenant that attracts covenant blessings!

November 14, 2008 6:29 PM


Anonymous said,
Hi Linda, i have another question to add to yours. I don't know if this is the same in other countries, but here in Canada, when you pay tithes, offering or whatever, u are supposed to put it in an envelope with ur name and address on the envelope, so that u can get a tax receipt from the church to file for income tax purposes. Is it okay to do this and if u do get some money back from the govt, are u still paying 10%? People who give to charity actually get a tax break for this, which is why SOME of them do.

November 14, 2008 7:55 PM


Paris said,
Interesting how every1 who pays tithes talks abt the rewards they get afterwards.
is that why ur paying it in the first instance? 2 receive more??
Not judging or anything because hey! 4 all i know, i may be wrong and u may be right.

however, most Churches like someone mentioned do what is called "building principles based on selective quotes from the bible."
That is why we have variety of churches under the same christian ideology. Meanwhile, i don't think it's the same in Islam.

As i was saying, they (d churches) tend to pick quotes that benefits them the most or represents their principles more and focus immensely on that portion of the bible. While most times, taking it out of context.
i know a man whose Big church organization is built on the principle that there is no such thing as sin and trust me he gets his quotes from the same bible.

In naija, u have 2 tie a scarf and not wear pants and all that stuff 2 go 2 church. Here in d states, they say, Jesus said come as you are.
i remember a certain time the popular Father Mbaka came here and i was expecting him 2 chase everyone out of the church since we were all there in pants and no head-ties. lol. I still ask, WHY D DOUBLE STANDARD??
Why are some things utterly wrong in Naija but seems okay here??
If u tell me that culture does not play a part in the building of a church then i'll show u a Liar. lol

I'm sorry, i tend 2 go with what my instincts tell me on pretty much anything in this life.

And someone mentioned other non-christian organizations following suit to the tithe rule??
Gee! y do u think?? b'cos MONEY (d root of evil) is INVOLVED! duhhhh Why else??

like i said b4, i'll gladly give 2 a charity or even a church that appears 2 be in need of it and not as a LAW that i should abide by.

Now when it comes to offerings, i dont bat an eye lid, maybe with exception 2 those churches that go all d way up to 7 collection, lol

when it comes 2 matters of religious beliefs, i try 2 stay clear b'cos i dont like 2 judge any1 and i don't like any1 judging me either. Do what feels right in ur heart.
like the saying goes, CHURCHIANITY IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. Paying tithes does not necessarily make u a wonderful christian or person.

Why do i feel like this tithe issue is mainly practiced in developing countries?? there are not many churches in d western world that still practice it.

Afterall, Christianity did originate from the West,

November 14, 2008 8:16 PM


michelle said,
im michelle, nd i do think its a thing that must be done i mean paying tithes, its an honour to god.if god gives u without being worthy of it we shud at the same time give him: one tenth of it,i mean that aint to much, except we are tryna rob god. lets do as the bible tells us yall we got nothing to loose especially when it comes to GIVING!!!!!

November 14, 2008 9:19 PM


Anonymous said,
well, i'll tell you that tithing is entirely your own option it does not make God richer BUT if you want God to open the heavens and keep out the devourer then my dear TIHTHE, SIMPLE!

November 14, 2008 9:20 PM


Anonymous said,
It is a personal choice. As for the bible, it is a compilation of people's words as led by God (or so they believed)however let us be mindful that during the period the bible was compiled to the changes made by King James, there was not much seperation between church and state. So religion was used as a means of control as well as finacial gain by the church as well as the state. So to quote the bible just because, does not really reflect spirituality.

As for owing God, sentiments. When your father gave you allowee as a student, were you expected to give 10% back to him?

November 14, 2008 10:41 PM


ibironke said,
i stopped paying tite when my pastor acquired a JET. i dont drive a car

November 15, 2008 9:29 AM


ibironke said,
i stopped paying tite when my pastor acquired a JET. i dont drive a car

November 15, 2008 9:30 AM


Anonymous said,
Others have said tithes go to church maintenance and administrative expenses. I go to a church that does a lot of community work and am happy to contribute towards those efforts through my tithes. Hardly does my church ask for offerings for special projects - in fact in the last 6 months they've taken offerings for projects just once.

I also noticed that periods when I "had" and didn't tithe, somehow I lost money - unforeseen expenses, accidents, theft, damages, etc. There was a period that I'll never forget I was dead broke - had enough to pay bills and that was it. I paid my tithe in coins and believe me God blessed me tremendously I got the gift of a job and since then I try to pay my tithes religiously. I just do it in faith.

I have no qualms paying tithes to other churches when I'm away from my home church but when I feel this pastor is one kind I save my money and pay it to my home church.

I challenge ppl who say they would rather see their money put to good use than to some pastor's extravagance to go to another church. If u don't trust a pastor don't put ur money and more importantly ur spiritual life under his/her tutelage.

Ultimate clarity and direction on all things spiritual comes from God sha.

Disclaimer: I'm a work in progres Christian but this issue has impacted my life.

Goodluck

November 15, 2008 9:43 AM


Anonymous said,
@ Paris I live in the "Western world" and the churches I have attended do "practice this" - oh and they are not naija churches

November 15, 2008 9:46 AM


Wild Boy said,
Girl I believe, though i'm not a regular tither, im working on it, No aplologies, let the pastor but the jet or SUV-whatever, he answers to God on that one. You just pay so you wont be on the losing end at the end of the day, cos for real the day's gonna end.

November 15, 2008 12:41 PM


Anonymous said,
Thank God you brought this issue up ,I have been thinking about it for a while. I don't believe in tithe and offreing reason is 10percent is not really huge to give to God but this money does not go to God ohhhhhhhhhhh it goes to a man, who will use my money to do as he wishes. I know they say dont worry where it goes, just give but that is blind faith which i dont and will not do.
Most of all these people shouting the lord the lord ,let me ask you a question .if all you had was your 10 percent tithe in your hand and you where on your way to church, and you just saw a friend who's child is very sick and she needs that exact amount to save the childs life what do you do?
I asked someone and she said she will still go to church and that some how the person will be taken care of. I was in shock!It is said in the Bible what so ever you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me.Why not use this money and help someone you see in need buy things take it to a shelter, motherless babies home do something !!!!
I am a proud Catholic , i don't go every single sunday to mass but i can beat my chest and say the little offering we give you can see where it goes to, to help the homeless, go to prisons,visit the sick , the list goes on.
When was the FIRST /last time your chuch had a collecting to feed the poor ? and i don't mean during your once a year thanks giving oh!
but with these BIG churches who collect 10percent of your cash it is untracable can you say you know where your money goes ?please don't say upkeep of the church.Because the catholic church have been here for ages and without the 10percent they have been doing fine !

November 15, 2008 2:36 PM


Anonymous said,
Bill Gates who never goes to church, does not tithe, but has a massive charity foundation that contributes to international society more than any other African Government, has his barns so full he cannot contain the money he makes.

I guess God forgot to shut his window of blessing. Tithers- Keep living in a dream world.

Take a child who has abilities but cannot support himself through college, sponsor that child and you would see wonders in your life, that to me is tithing.

John Obi

November 15, 2008 4:01 PM


Ladybrille said,
I believe in tithing. I have seen many miracles right from my youth when my family practiced tithing. On a personal level, it has been quite a challenge sometimes. You just made this money, you promised to tithe and then something comes up and you direct your tithe money for something else. At some point, I also started giving my tithe money to charity. I did so because I felt the Church did not need it a I could not say whether the needy in the Church were getting it or whether it was just being applied to the Pastor's salary.

But, like many have said, I realized that God knew there was charity but still specifically required tithing from us.

I also try not to believe what I feel most of us are indoctrinated with growing up. The idea that God is this mean person that will punish you every moment he gets if you mess up. For example because you have not tithe as one commenter seemed to imply, is why you are broke or bad things happen to you. I believe God is merciful and while there are consequences for actions, he is not out to punish us because we don't tithe.

Anyway, it is an area I need to get much better and stronger at. I am glad you raised the issue out in the open.

Cheers,

--Uduak

November 15, 2008 5:25 PM


Anonymous said,
Pastors and so many religuous folks have exploited the Bible for personal gain, and its really sad. Its complicated. I don't believe in when pastors say give a certain money so you can be blessed or have more money. All the verses in the Bible relating to tithe has been taken out of context, and has just confused too many people. I was discussing the same topic with my mama, and she told me not to worry too much about it, what I should be worried about is doing what I need to do as a born again christian not based on what the pastor says or anybody but based on the word of God. I don't believe that people give to God, because you are expecting something from HIM. We should freely give to God to appreciate Him. You don't have to give directly to church because the money is usually for the pastor to expand his extravagant lifestyle. There are so many charities out there, that are really doing what they promise, so you can give to any of those charities. Fortunately, I attend a small church that are really using the church money to do something. CHECK OUT P4CM.COM

November 15, 2008 8:07 PM


Ladi said,
I give tithe in my home church ECWA because I know it would be used for God's work (missionaries, build schools, churches, charities etc)

I don't tithe in pentecostal churches when I'm in london because I don't really trust the pastors. Instead, I donate 10% to a fund raiser of a worthy cause.

I think you should tithing to God might not necessarily be increasing the pastors luxuries but giving to Godly cause like orphanages, missions, etc.

When you give you receive.

November 15, 2008 9:34 PM


coolgal said,
i give what i can afford simple

November 16, 2008 3:58 AM


World Famous Simon SEEZ said,
Linda,

Really exciting views on this issue, i took my time to read everyones point of view, i guess everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion but however,what the bible says about tithing is clear, what ur pastor does with ur money is his own cross, just do ur bit, i'm catholic, does it mean if my priest sins, i would not collect communion from him, i believe i am not receivin it from him but from God,cos thats what he instructed, ow r u sure ur pastor has not prayed for u on a particular day he wasnt in Good terms with God, does it mean if ur needs are real, God will not answer u because of the sins of your pastor?

Linda, please keep supporting charity, get an estimate of how much u earn a month and pay ur tithe,

November 16, 2008 5:52 PM


Waffarian said,
Since you asked not to tell you to take the picture down, then I won't.

However, I have never believed that one can appreciate one's own fortunes by reminding oneself of another's misfortune.

I think its extremely sad that a little girl's illness should be the one to remind anybody of just how lucky he/she is.

Very sad.

November 16, 2008 8:46 PM


Anonymous said,
I forgot to add that my church mails an equivalent of an income statement to all members and it reflects how much they spent on what and how much they received. They also send an account of how much the member paid in tithes and offerings (I guess for those who choose to take tax deductions) - I know not all churches do this but tithing is a form of charitable contribution and why not give to an organization (the church that can reach more people than I can).

November 17, 2008 6:01 AM


Anonymous said,
Tithing is an issue of covenant and not laws, if u claim to be in a covenant with God thereby accessing the privileges of the covenant, by all means do tithe. If not, dont! You'll still go to heaven if you're born again! Whn you get to heaven, then ask God for his thoughts.

November 19, 2008 12:55 PM


Anonymous said,
This is in response to the question asked by someone about writing your name and address on your offering envelope. I personally do not write my name or address on my tithe offering and if i use my check, I indicate on it that I don't want a record of it for tax break. The reason for me is that i think it is does not serve the purpose God's instructed us to tithe.
Linda, U can give your 10% to the needy if you will comfortable and do it is sincerely. One of my closest friend's husband does that just for same reason you gave and he is blessed abundantly. Our God is a sincere God and He knows your heart. He is an understanding God.
I personally don't care what my church does with the money, I care about my part and that is what I can control.

November 20, 2008 6:14 PM


Anonymous said,
i was tithing regularly until i had to give £200K as tithe. i reasoned why would the church get the money?what would they do with it? wont they now know i am that rich? all the questions i never knew i could ask were flowing. i sat with the wife and discussed the matter. she said just obey God because God is bigger than the church. i gave it as bank draft so they never know who gave it.from then it was easier. God owns it all.i can say tithe is a blessing because God is only asking for what He has given not what he has not given. by His grace we have never have to use more than 1% of the rest 90%. we need to be grateful. dont go give the homeless thinking that is tithe. you are no priest. you dont have the right to use God's money the way you see fit. it is His portion and honour.

November 25, 2008 11:15 AM


Anonymous said,
@ annon -November 20, 2008 6:14 PM
"Our God is a sincere God and He knows your heart. He is an understanding God.
I personally don't care what my church does with the money, I care about my part and that is what I can control."
God will never change His word for nobody. it is better to obey His word than do sacrifices. i ma blessed too and like your friends we use drafts that is just because we want to be left alone to live our lives as anonymous as posible.we had to leave our church five yrs ago because we felt we were being taken advantage of. having learnt our lesson we adjusted

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=9174986572743472561&postID=1169967612890004864

pilgrim.1:

You can scream about pilgrim.1 as if I ever tried to piss you off; but as you do so, please have a heart reconsider your own assumptions instead of taking this personally. If all 613 Mosaic Laws have been repealed (your own asserted word), you have no business being selective.

I believe galatians 5:14 squarely answers your postulations.

Galatians 5:14:
14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]

KunleOshob:

More of what the bible as to say about the law and christianity

KunleOshob:

I believe galatians 5:14 squarely answers your postulations.

What are the "613 mosaic laws"? Are they repealed or not?
If they are, why are you being selective?
What does Romans 3:31 tell you, KunleOshob? What do you mean by "repealed"?

KunleOshob:

I believe galatians 5:14 squarely answers your postulations.

Galatians 5:14:
14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]

I'm grateful, thank you. First, they are not my postulations - I didn't postulate anything other than call your attention to your own postulations about a "613 mosaic law" being "repealed" by Christ's death.

The reason why I'm glad you quoted Galatians 5:14 is because I would ask us and others who discuss this issue to practise what we preach. If we are going to "love" our neighbour, what is the sense in slurring them because their own take on tithes is different from what we hold?

@Jjyou
It would be appreciated if you don't spam this thread with such gibberish. I am quoting from the bible and you are psoting comments of misguided, ill informed and manipulated people and you expect me to read it.

@Pligrim.1
How many of the 613 mosaic laws do yu observe?? I need a clear answer on that b4 i can respond to any other question you raise on that topic.

pilgrim.1:

I'm grateful, thank you. First, they are not my postulations - I didn't postulate anything other than call your attention to your own postulations about a "613 mosaic law" being "repealed" by Christ's death.

As i said b4 yu thrive on semantics wether the laws were repealed, summed up, ammended, cancel nullified or set aside the fact still remains that christianity is not based on those laws and the demands of those laws are not made on christians except the one of tithes (in a modified) version to fufill filthy lucre desires of those that preach it contrary to the spirit of christian giving taught by Christ and the apostles.

KunleOshob:

@Pligrim.1
How many of the 613 mosaic laws do yu observe?? I need a clear answer on that before i can respond to any other question you raise on that topic.

@KunleOshob,
Do you really want to know my answer? Here: pilgrim.1 never said the Law amounted to 613! That is the whole point! I have said so many times that people who make that assertion should go back and CHECK before launching any other idea from that fausse patte.

Now, if you believe in a specific 613 Mosaic law, are you at all aware that is just an abitrary figure chosen for convenience? Not even the Jewish scholars quoting that figure are agreed what constitutes the precise body of "613 laws" - they all hold different opinions and make up different listings. This is why my reason for asking that people should go back and check is so that they do not make themselves the unncessary victims of other people's arguments. If you're happy to hold unto the idea of "613 laws" and then argue that they were "repealed", good for you. It is either you mean what you say or you would only use it in the case of tithes but be happy to soft-pedal in other issues. This is a matter of being consistent: if the number of laws that were "repealed" were 613 in your view, please list them and let's see if indeed all the 613 were repealed as you are happy to keep asserting.

Meanwhile, if you want to know my take on the Law in the new covenant, a good place to start is Romans 3:31 which I recommended. Many Christians never take the time to carefully see the import of that statement, and that is why any time someone brings up the issue they get pissed off! I didn't explain Romans 3:31, I didn't pen those words - if they are in the Bible, let those who are often asserting the 613 laws as "repealed" do us the honour of considering that verse as well! It is unhealthy to see only some verses and be selective while ignoring others! Since it has become the culture that anything I try to offer is dismissed out of hand, I have only now been asking questions. Since our "lovable" brethren can accuse others and justify them, no worries - they can "love" us by answering these questions as well.

KunleOshob:

As i said before yu thrive on semantics wether the laws were repealed, summed up, ammended, cancel nullified or set aside the fact still remains that christianity is not based on those laws and the demands of those laws are not made on christians except the one of tithes (in a modified) version to fufill filthy lucre desires of those that preach it contrary to the spirit of christian giving taught by Christ and the apostles.

Learn to discuss and drop this childish game of "semantics". When you use them, I never accused you perjoratively.

Okay, I hear. By repeal, I should take it that you mean (among others) -

     -  ammended

     -  cancel

     -  nullified?

Sorry, I don't see how "repeal" is the same as "amended". This is how -

         repeal - "the act of abrogating; an official or legal cancellation"

         amended - "modified for the better"

So which one is it - have the 613 laws been "modified for the better" or "cancelled"? I don't want to risk misreading you, so please don't be careless in what you say and then come back accusing me of semantics.

pilgrim.1:


So which one is it - have the 613 laws been "modified for the better" or "cancelled"? I don't want to risk misreading you, so please don't be careless in what you say and then come back accusing me of semantics.

Galatians 5:4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]

Galatians 5: 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

I would address the issue of romans 3:31 in my next post.

In response to your over flogged assertions on Romans 3:31 i would post the preceding verses here for everybody to read. Reading a verse in isolation can be very misleading, dangerous and subject to misinterpretation. I would then leave others to draw whatever conclusions they deem fit on this issue of law.

  Romans 3:21-31:
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
   23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

   27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
   29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, [b]does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Well what conclusions do we draw??

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

Galatians 5:4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]

Galatians 5: 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

I would address the issue of romans 3:31 in my next post.

How does that answer the simple question about your meaning of the word "repealed" that you used? Repeating the same thing and throwing words carelessly about is not the same thing as making yourself any clearer. Which meaning did you intend - "make better" or "cancel"?

KunleOshob:

In response to your over flogged assertions on Romans 3:31 i would post the preceding verses here for everybody to read. Reading a verse in isolation can be very misleading, dangerous and subject to misinterpretation. I would then leave others to draw whatever conclusions they deem fit on this issue of law.
. . .

Well what conclusions do we draw??

Mr, rather than use these verses by dancing around a simple question, what have you said about your often repeated "613 mosaic laws" being repealed? I already have said I don't want to risk misreading you, that was why I waited for you to clear your cacophony between "cancel" and "amended". Which is it?

KunleOshob:

31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Haba, oga Kunle, haba! You who hope to highlight the "misleading, dangerous and subject to misinterpretation" you see in others should be careful what you drive yourself to say. The New Living Translation you used only managed to mislead you further. Consider this:

    (a) "if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not!"

Even the NLT is not saying the same thing that you have been asserting forever about REPEALING the Law. If repealing the Law means to "cancel" it, why does the NLT admit that you cannot forget about the Law? This is why I have appealed to you to consider the meaning of the word "repeal" that you keep flogging about.

   (b) "In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

Did the people of the OT not have faith at all? And if they did have faith, did they also fulfill the Law? Did all those who were men of faith under the OT (some of them as found in Hebrews 11) also fulfill the law by having faith?

The whole point here is that the NLT has applied its own ideas into that verse and not what it says at all - and you can confirm this by comparing with other translations. I may be wrong, ^{(bearing in mind I'm aware of Romans 8:4)} but if you feel that the NLT is correct, please compare with other translations to show us where that verse is saying that we "fulfill" the law - the same law which you said were numbered about 613 and repealed! Does "repeal" and "fulfill" mean the same thing to you, Kunle? Could I offer to quote the (b) part of that verse from a few translations? Here:

    NIV      - "Rather, we uphold the law"

    KJV      - "yea, we establish the law"

    NASB   - "On the contrary, we establish the Law"

    AMP     - "On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law"

    ESV     - "On the contrary, we uphold the law"

Please Kunle, go back and check again. Even if one were to read this verse in all those translations and versions, are they saying the same thing you have initially been repeating every time about the 613 mosaic laws being "repealed" by Christ's death? How does "repeal" mean the same thing as your "fulfill" of the NLT? or, how does "repeal" mean the same thing as to "uphold, confirm, establish" the Law?

Kunle, please for clarity: how does your argument of "repeal" mean the same thing as to "uphold, confirm, establish" the Law? If you "cancelled" the Law by "repealing" it, how can you then argue that you uphold or establish what you cancelled?

Point of correction,

Earlier, I said this;

God served notice long ago that he no longer dwells in physical – houses, temples – buildings , in fact, almost  immediately we entered this current dispensation.

Acts 7:48-49 - However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?

Acts 17:24 - God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands

If anything, the point was actually made - earlier - intra-dispentianally;

John 4:19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

My bad, I apologise, if I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

But seriously, that's part of the reason why He gave His life. Not just to free us from sin, but also mindless ritual and law-bound institutionalised religion. Which not only could man not abide by, didn't actually afford true intimacy with God - that is what this is all about right?

And lest I am remiss and forget, freedom from the religious terrorists who would not go to Him and stop you from going to Him also. As He said, thy'd make you twice a son of hell as they themselves.

Matthew 23:15 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

How many times did the Lord have encounters with satan? But think of the amount of time He spent railing against the hypocrisy and abuse of the religious establishment. Those are the one's to watch out for. There the one's that'll fool you with their hyper-religiousity and fake piety.

They're pretty easy to spot, they often come with temples attached and try and chain you to it, whilst binding you to them. They'll claim spirutal authority, over you. And demand your obedience. They'll control your time and money, busy you with programs and "the work of God". Tragic. They certainly won't leave you time for Him or point to Him. They'll name "ministries" after themselves and put their imprimateur on everything.

John the Baptist sought decrease, that "He may increase", not with this bunch, hell no! They'll claim to be holier than the early saints and more knowledgable, point out the errors of the apostles, increasing only in filthy lucre and there denial of Him. Paul was clear that the Lords strength was magnified in his weakness. Not these ones, they brag about their worldly accomplishments and accroutements as they plan their dominion, their reign and their territorial advancement. Don't be fooled His Kingdom is not of this earth, His love, not for the things or those of this world. Seek truth, that you may enter His kingdom and not be caught up in their carnal ambitions.

And please don't get me wrong, I have no beef with those that want to build temples, hire priests - 10 shekels a suit of clothes and sustenance - write themselves laws, subject themselves to men and assign themselves spiritual badges or even fund their fancy at whatever percentage they so choose. But why do they have to drag the name of Jesus into it

Good evening.

God bless
TV

pilgrim.1:

@KunleOshob,

How does that answer the simple question about your meaning of the word "repealed" that you used? Repeating the same thing and throwing words carelessly about is not the same thing as making yourself any clearer. Which meaning did you intend - "make better" or "cancel"?

Mr, rather than use these verses by dancing around a simple question, what have you said about your often repeated "613 mosaic laws" being repealed? I already have said I don't want to risk misreading you, that was why I waited for you to clear your cacophony between "cancel" and "amended". Which is it?

Haba, oga Kunle, haba! You who hope to highlight the "misleading, dangerous and subject to misinterpretation" you see in others should be careful what you drive yourself to say. The New Living Translation you used only managed to mislead you further. Consider this:

(a) "if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not!"

Even the NLT is not saying the same thing that you have been asserting forever about REPEALING the Law. If repealing the Law means to "cancel" it, why does the NLT admit that you cannot forget about the Law? This is why I have appealed to you to consider the meaning of the word "repeal" that you keep flogging about.

(b) "In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

Did the people of the OT not have faith at all? And if they did have faith, did they also fulfill the Law? Did all those who were men of faith under the OT (some of them as found in Hebrews 11) also fulfill the law by having faith?

The whole point here is that the NLT has applied its own ideas into that verse and not what it says at all - and you can confirm this by comparing with other translations. I may be wrong, ^{(bearing in mind I'm aware of Romans 8:4)} but if you feel that the NLT is correct, please compare with other translations to show us where that verse is saying that we "fulfill" the law - the same law which you said were numbered about 613 and repealed! Does "repeal" and "fulfill" mean the same thing to you, Kunle? Could I offer to quote the (b) part of that verse from a few translations? Here:

NIV - "Rather, we uphold the law"

KJV - "yea, we establish the law"

NASB - "On the contrary, we establish the Law"

AMP - "On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law"

ESV - "On the contrary, we uphold the law"

Please Kunle, go back and check again. Even if one were to read this verse in all those translations and versions, are they saying the same thing you have initially been repeating every time about the 613 mosaic laws being "repealed" by Christ's death? How does "repeal" mean the same thing as your "fulfill" of the NLT? or, how does "repeal" mean the same thing as to "uphold, confirm, establish" the Law?

Kunle, please for clarity: how does your argument of "repeal" mean the same thing as to "uphold, confirm, establish" the Law? If you "cancelled" the Law by "repealing" it, how can you then argue that you uphold or establish what you cancelled?

In as much as i believe you have a better understanding of the point i am driving than you express since we have been through this topic b4 on the other thread i would for the benefit of other readers of this thread explain again what is meant my the laws(written) being reapealed or cancelled or amended or summarised or obsolete or irrelevant. It is quite glaring that Pilgrim.1 loves playing around with words even when she knows what you are driving at hence the reason i posted all words expressing the law is no longer in force as it was in biblical times. Even though i have previously posted several biblical scriptures to establish this Pilgrim.1 still pretends either not to have read them or not to understand what they mean hence she is still pulling at the straws of the law being reapealed(as if the laws are still in force today). To summarise what all thess scriptures were saying about the law which were strict lettered words i would state the following: The law had a purpose which was to bring the children of Israel closer to God in righteousness. The purpose of the law was fufilled with the death of christ as a living sacrifice and all we need to be closer to God is to accept Jesus and his commandments to be closer to God. The law was then summarised into loving God and our Neighbours. In other words for us to fufill the law love should be our guiding principle and we should do good to others. In essence what is done away with is the letters of the law, the spirit of the law is meant to be fufilled. I hope i have made myself clear now and pilgrim.1 would stop looking for loopholes in my statement just for the sole purpose of attacking my submissions

Hallo TV01,

That God does not dwell in temples made with hands is not breaking news as if it happened yesterday - Acts 17:24 and ancillary verses are not new to us. However, the real gist of my concern is this:

TV01:

How many times did the Lord have encounters with satan? But think of the amount of time He spent railing against the hypocrisy and abuse of the religious establishment. Those are the one's to watch out for. There the one's that'll fool you with their hyper-religiousity and fake piety.

There you have it - and on many accounts, while we think to justify our accusations and finger pointing at "others", the fact is that we are often the ones most guilty of this kind of sanctimony. I qualify this with a "we", because I've been there before - and that is why I often these days try to caution our brethren to be more loving, understanding and share their views without seeking to be constantly perjorative against anyone. Like I asked earlier: "what justfies accusations against anybody - whether generalised or personalised?" It so happens that when we make assertions that we cannot defend and they are pointed out, we get so offended that reason completely exits and a stubborn sanctimony takes center stage!

Did you realise that while it is easy to "spot" those who say that they are of Paul, of Cephas or Apollos. . there was (and is) a sanctimonious group who deride others by saying "and I am of Christ"? See 1 Corinthians 1:12. When we study who these latter groups are and how they behave, you just come off shaking your head in pity - for they assume that they have so much of what other Christians never have. It is to that sort of sanctimony that the apostle addresses this remark: "Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's" (2 Cor. 10:7). It is easy to see others as the modern Pharisees, but how many times do those who accuse others realise their own sanctimony is no better than those they perjoratively "spot out"?

Back to this issue - tithes. While some may say they have no beef with anyone, it is difficult to see the grace they hope to display. What saddens me besides whatever arguments people hold on either side are these: (a) many people opposing tithes constantly make untenable assertions that they cannot defend; (b) they never take time to consider that their assertions might be wrong when shown from Scripture; (c) they keep making such false assertions and get upset when pointed out; (d) they start off on wrong premises and use that false platform to attack tithers; (e) they make generalised statements which they borrowed from loud talkers who have no clue what they are saying; (f) and when they cannot show answers to simple questions, they then turn to the enquirers and resume their ad hominems!

It seems to me that every time you listen to an opposer of tithes argue, these are the very elements you will find every single time in their submissions. Even when you invite them to a reasonable discussion minus the slurs at anyone, they find it too difficult a challenge to speak what truth they suppose they have without being perjorative. They think themselves so super-spiritual and "free" from the bondage they allege against others, that they cannot for a moment realise how steeped in their own untenable world they have become! Now, TV01, please don't get me wrong - these matters here are not merely about posters here on Nairaland - I've spoken with and debated so many tithe-opposers outside this forum. The result? It is always the very same attitude I find in them. Whether tithes or any other subject, people make assertions that they cannot defend while castigating their brethren.

@TV01,

My challenge with a plea is this: if tithe opposers actually have anything of real substance to share, they can do so without being pejorative towards anyone. Truth was never given to us as believers to attack and justify our accusations against anyone - but when would "Christians" learn to truly love others with true humility and share truth (even if their own fancy of "truth" without seeking to be pejorative and contemptuous towards those who don't agree with them? I have been there, done it - but one thing with me is that (God help me) I don't ever have the desire to justify such an attitude in my faith. I am not ashamed to own up where I have been wrong, and that is why I can freely apologise to those who point out my wrong.

If you may permit me just this few lines more. My attitude these days is to not push myself - for which reason I may not be posting arguments one way or another as much as I used to. I can be thankful that God blessed me with very mature believers as friends from so many denominations, and in true challenging love I have learnt so much from them. One of them challenged me to refrain from arguing so much about Islam and rather show them love regardless of their attitude. Such a challenge, but my heeding that advice has helped so many others far more than I could ever have accomplished by debating some more.

Same with Catholics - infact, as if God was watching over me (sure He has always been faithful), He sent a friend my way and from that moment I have learnt to respect even Catholics. Most of the scholars that Protestants cannot deny are Catholics - G.K. Chesterton, Alvin Plantinga, etc. We are grateful to people like them, and I have since learnt that we know far so little in the things of God that we should be cautious of making assertive statements in pretentious sanctimony. I don't know all about tithes, God knows. I don't see where God condemned or repealed them (if those words are given their proper meanings). People may not agree with me in my submissions - I have always maintained that it is not in my place to castigate or clobber them. Truth is not popular, but those who tithe can testify of the reality of God's power in their lives. Others may not give ecause they feel they are always being manipulated to do so. I only have come to be converted to the truth about tithing that I previously derided. God would not come down from heaven to argue with us - if we rubbish what He never commissioned us to condemn or ridicule in anyway, we show the condition of our hearts before Him and before men.

May God help us to be truly humble, loving and understanding. How true it is that God uses those we consider as foolish to humble our spirits before Him. It is not the loud mouths claiming "and I of Christ" that He is seeking - rather, He may endure our long and boring arguments and sanctimonies and yet bless those who truly understand the meaning of giving tithes without justifying it on the Mosaic Law.

God bless you richly.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

In as much as i believe you have a better understanding of the point i am driving than you express since we have been through this topic before on the other thread i would for the benefit of other readers of this thread explain again what is meant my the laws(written) being reapealed or cancelled or amended or summarised or obsolete or irrelevant. It is quite glaring that Pilgrim.1 loves playing around with words even when she knows what you are driving at hence the reason i posted all words expressing the law is no longer in force as it was in biblical times. Even though i have previously posted several biblical scriptures to establish this Pilgrim.1 still pretends either not to have read them or not to understand what they mean hence she is still pulling at the straws of the law being reapealed(as if the laws are still in force today). To summarise what all thess scriptures were saying about the law which were strict lettered words i would state the following: The law had a purpose which was to bring the children of Israel closer to God in righteousness. The purpose of the law was [b]fufilled with the death of christ as a living sacrifice and all we need to be closer to God is to accept Jesus and his commandments to be closer to God.[/b] The law was then summarised into loving God and our Neighbours. In other words for us to fufill the law love should be our guiding principle and we should do good to others. In essence what is done away with is the letters of the law, the spirit of the law is meant to be fufilled. I hope i have made myself clear now and pilgrim.1 would stop looking for loopholes in my statement just for the sole purpose of attacking my submissions

Good morning. I have not been looking for loopholes, and please save your religious sanctimony - it is become too boring to be endured. If you want to discuss, I am available; if not, save your the gimmicks.

What is wrong with you, KunleOshob? You have been throwing words carelessly and I endured it for a while. Anything in the past that I tried to share with opposers of tithes was unreasonable to you guys, and even though I called for calm and reason it didn't make any sense. That was why I refrained from posting anything but started asking questions. If you cannot answer them, what is this sanctimony now of always seeking to make up the garboil of alleging semantics as if that is a better alternative to cower under for the vacancy of thought in your arguments?

If it would help you, here: the one reason why I took up this issue of the "613 mosaic laws repealed by Christ's death" is because -

(a) you have been using that fallacy every single time to argue endlessly against tithes; whereas you had no clue that the people who claimed a "613 mosaic law" did not even agree or know what they were talking about! So how could you be using another person's confusion as you veritable bastion for what you cannot and have not been able to defend?

(b) those who have been opposing tithes have been using that same false claim of "613 Mosaic Laws" to argue constantly against this subject - and whether here or outside Nairaland, everytime I asked them to carefully delineate the 613 Laws of Moses and choose out how many were "cancelled", they get upset and NEVER oblige my simple request. Why? Because they probably found out too late that they have been talking hot breeze that have no bearing on the ground!

Now, you may or may not have noticed that the NLT that you quoted was a waste of space. I was ready to just post you an article written by somebody else about how dubious the NLT is, but I would spare that. My reason for focusing on the words you have used is that you may not realise how confusing you are making things for yourself. I mean, have words no meaning any longer to us Christians that we should be so careless in our assertions? If we can afford to be this careless and so stubborn to even check again, then it is not surprising to me why unbels will laugh and ridicule believers for the pitiful drivel we sometimes display in public! Where has our God-given intelligence gone?

Let me show you and all who care to see - the words you are carelessly bantering about are not the same thing in meaning; so please stop cheating yourself about this super-spirituality you have been waving in our faces. Here:

You said the "613 mosaic laws" were REPEALED by Christ's death, not so? And I was wondering how that could be when it is a FACT that Christians are still obeying most of those 613 Mosaic Laws - for which I quoted Romans 3:31. It does not come as a surprise to me that you would confuse issues further by the following highlighted words in your reply, as if to REPEAL is the same thing as -

- amended, or

- summarised

Are those 613 Mosaic Laws "AMENDED" or repealed?

Are those 613 Mosaic Laws "SUMMARISED" or "cancelled"?

Even the NLT you quoted does not say that they have been repealed or cancelled or amended or summarised or obsolete or irrelevant. I believe that when people are speaking "truth", they should not confuse their audience and appeal to more confusion. If I was sitting and listening to you, would I not wonder since when English speakers made "repealed" equal to "AMEND"? The NLT even argues on Romans 3:31 that you cannot forget the Law! For those who have been bantering this fallacy about the "613 Mosaic laws", it has happened again in just this instance that you could not show what you meant - as so many others in various places who have been making the same assertion!


KunleOshob, I have no worries with anyone. But it is sad that everytime people say that they are led by the Spirit (as if others are not) and they make these false assertions of 613 mosaic laws as repealed and "irrelevant", they have never for once been able to defend their assertions. Bless the day that they can show us where God ever told them such a thing, and yet they would still quote us the NLT that says you cannot forget the same Law that they repealed!

In one summary, Kunle, stop making this false statement. Realise that wherever you borrowed such sentiments, those who claimed it do not have a clue what they are saying. If you still want to keep forcing this false statement and not be able to defend it (not even the NLT defends it), then I leave it for you to be happy with. It just confirms one more case of how much people are willing to use fallacies to argue spiritual sanctimony as I have seen in so many other places. If I was the one confusing "repeal" for "amend", I know how many people would have pulled me up! Thank you and God bless.