@ AKO

I'm not sure you were addressing my post. Whatever daylight miracle means, 'Pastor Chris miracles' are done in the daylight, so thats not the issue here. It's unbelievers that need to see before they believe. May be you should search your bible again for the definition of FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 comes in handy. Remember also, without faith no man can please God. So faith is not just about miracle alone. Your relationship with God, which qualifies you to be called a Christian, is through faith.

In Hebrews 11:1-

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.


3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible

From the above, you see that faith itself is the EVIDENCE. Thats the principle of Christianity.

Unbelievers may need to see to believe. A Christian uses faith as the evidence.

now to Pastor chris issue, in the early days of his ministry, critics were mainly talking about arranged miracles. These days it's the source of the power they talk about.

If you need evidence, go to the Christ embassy healing school next month and see.

@ A_K_O
I am applauding you. Infact you are too much. I love people that knows what they are defending and how to go about. Not those that argue or yap for yapping sake.

@fyneguy
Abeg no vex go sleep. Until u really read ur bible, meditate and comprehend some basic principles in it through the help of the Holy Spirit of course. Then can u come to a public forum to start defending ur beliefs. As for now u are really contradicting yourself and the bible.

Just take a break _{(preferably a hike, because Pastor Chris will be so much ashamed of you, seeing the way you are defending him so clueless)}

@fyne guy:

I'm not sure you were addressing my post. Whatever daylight miracle means, 'Pastor Chris miracles' are done in the daylight, so thats not the issue here.

This is what I said: "in broad day light and were provable." You ignored the word 'provable'.
If I am believing God for a car and 1 year down the line I am still trekking, my faith for the car is still active. However, once the car comes, my faith for the car terminates because I have seen it, it is no longer 'not seen'. This now strengthens my faith for any other thing I may want to ask for in the future. Like I also said, when a 'miracle' that ought to have been performed on the spot is medically questionable, I think it is perfectly okay to doubt it's genuity.

Unbelievers may need to see to believe. A Christian uses faith as the evidence.

I agree with you that faith is the bedrock of christianity. I am a bit concerned however, about your interpretation of the concept of faith. I need faith to receive a particular miracle from God but ONCE IT IS PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED, I don't need faith TO BELIEVE FOR THAT PARTICULAR THING!!. An unbeliever cannot have faith to believe God for something but once they see that particular thing manifested, they do not need faith, they just believe because their eyes have seen.

Hence, if a miracle is supposedly done by Pastor Chris and (for instance), someone is supposed to have been cured instantly from HIV and they go to the hospital only to find out that the virus is still there, I do not need any faith to believe that the virus had been removed. According to the Pastor, it had been removed, i.e. the miracle had been manifested. It is different if it were to be a gradual process. If it is still there, it was not removed. Period.

now to Pastor chris issue, in the early days of his ministry, critics were mainly talking about arranged miracles

I do not think you bothered to read the first post of this thread. I't all about arranged miracles, pastors paying people to fake it. So you missed it on that point my brother.

Nothin is accidental under the sun

Lol Bro Ako,

I can see some aspects of faith is STRONG MEAT for you.


The strong meat is this, i know u may not catch it, FAITH is not trying to get it. FAITH means I have it and I act in the knowledge of it. I will give an instance. If I have faith as per buying a car, I will go and process my driver's licence and prepare a packing space for it. I am already acting as though I have it in the physical realm. An unbeliever would ask me if I already bought the car or why process my licence and prepare a space for it. It wouldnt make sense to unbelievers, They would say "Bro, wait first, let your prayer be answered" Thats for babes in christ or unbelievers. For 'faith Christians' you possess it in the spiritual realm and it definitely will manifest in the physical.

For the barren that has 'real faith' she would go shopping for baby wears, even when theres nothing to show that a baby is coming. When they ask her: "madam how far, are u pregant', she says "YES'!  she hasnt lied
It means she's pregnant spiritually and it definitely will manifest soon.

Like I said earlier, this is strong meat words of faith and it takes Christians in ZION, who has GINOSKO (speacialised knowledge of God and His words). Christians with Zoe as opposed to SUKE (carnally minded).

I insist only babes in christ and unbelievers wait to see it manifest in the physical realm before they believe they have it.

FAITH is the evidence u have it!  Faith doesnt try to get it!, "Get it" is at teh spiritual realm. You start praising God at that level.


Now as regards healing, If a pastor prayed for you as per malaria, for instance,and he said, you are healed. If you felt feverish later. It doesnt mean you are not healed. Thats the test of faith. You insist that you are healed. You reject the symptoms. Thats physical. Faith is consummated at the spiritual level. Again thats some strong meat.

Take Peter for instance:

And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.”
29 So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw that the wind was boisterous,[a] he was afraid; and began to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!”

He walked on the water until he looked at the boisterous wind which he felt could sweep him off his feet. well thats logical/reasonable. the wind could do that. However, thats anti-Faith. walking onthe sea itself is not logical, so why consider the logical power of the wind?

FAITH doesnt wait till it's manifested in the physical brotha, I pray u get to that STRONG MEAT level with christ.

Lastly, faith is not all about miracles and prayers. Your relationship with God itself is by Faith. He may ask you to do certain things which aint reasonable or logical, but faith would make you do it.

fyneguy,thanks man.
what u wrote is so edifying.it takes a spiritual minded person to comprehend that.Faith is not in the physical seeing.it reminds me of that sunday school song :IF GODS SAYS IT,AND I BELIEVE IT ,THAT SETTLE IT.

U know av come to realise something as a christian even if u're standing, ur heart goes after people that are not living right as a christian u pray for them and wish that they come to the knowledge of the truth,u're not condeming them ,critiscing ,judging.Till christ comes no one can condemn anyone until he comes.CHRIST DIED FOR ALL.To those that have made themselves christian validator i.e what they validate becomes right,u know,they have to endorse it for it to be right,it just really baffles me.

fyne guy this might dissapoint you but I didnt regard what you said as STRONG MEAT

Let me even give you scripture

Mr 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

We see from this scripture that receiving in the realm of the spirit is different from having in the physical realm. So I knew all you said before you said it, k?

Christians with Zoe

All christians have zoe, the LIFE OF GOD in their spirits.

Now as regards healing, If a pastor prayed for you as per malaria, for instance,and he said, you are healed. If you felt feverish later. It doesnt mean you are not healed. Thats the test of faith. You insist that you are healed. You reject the symptoms. Thats physical. Faith is consummated at the spiritual level. Again thats some strong meat.

It is either you did not see or you ignored the fact that I focused on 'instant' miracles i.e. miracles that are physically manifested immediately. Thats what most of the pastors offer, in yourba we call it 'lesekese', you may have seen that on a handbill somewhere. When a miracle is reported like that and it is medically questionable, thats what Im talking about here. Even the guys that receive later, how do we know that they had genuine problems before? By faith?
The only solution to this crisis in the church is that some of us christians and pastors need the boldness to do instant miracles, Jesus style. For example when an amputated limb grows out or when a person rises from the dead, thats what I am talking about. we aint seen that yet.

fyneguy:

Like I said earlier, this is strong meat words of faith and it takes Christians in ZION, who has GINOSKO (speacialised knowledge of God and His words). Christians with Zoe as opposed to SUKE (carnally minded).

these people must be reading another bible.

i'm still shocked at the spirited defense of men of God. such denial has ran many catholic dioceses in the US to bankruptcy. these men are human not GODS.

bawomolo:

i'm still shocked at the spirited defense of men of God. such denial has ran many catholic dioceses in the US to bankruptcy. these men are human not GODS.

lies upon lies

what lies??

http://www.emailwire.com/release/12482-CATHOLIC-CHURCH-Bankruptcy-News-Issue-No-120.html

sick, hisses

Hey,never knew Thomas was goina come back to this life again.


for all u pastor Chris haters,im sorry, go listen to the tape "A MAN SENT FROM GOD", where is Fame magazine today,Tempo,vintage,global Excellence, Excel journal to mention a few,their publisher are so broke that the even beg for money. Go ask Ade Osijola of Excel,he waalks round the street,looking fir whom to borrow from.
All of you that are still dicussing this issue,u are just playing with your future,anything contrary ti the NAME OF JESUS is fake,so why on earth will someone be using that great name to work "FAKE" miracles,i pray that the annointing will not crush anyone of u.

fyneguy:

@ owi11

I have no problem with him criticizing Pastor Chris "style'. However, from his statement:

'''Please - why does Pator Chris only heal the people with unnoticeable diseases. When I see a withered hand fully transform on the screen before my very eyes, then I will believe he is real'''

He wants to confirm the genuineness of a miracle by what he 'sees'. Thats so unchristian. Christianity is not based on PROGNOSIS. It is by faith which is not based on what you see!

wealthyman:

Hey,never knew Thomas was goina come back to this life again.


for all u pastor Chris haters,im sorry, go listen to the tape "A MAN SENT FROM GOD", where is Fame magazine today,Tempo,vintage,global Excellence, Excel journal to mention a few,their publisher are so broke that the even beg for money. Go ask Ade Osijola of Excel,he waalks round the street,looking fir whom to borrow from.
All of you that are still dicussing this issue,u are just playing with your future,anything contrary ti the NAME OF JESUS is fake,so why on earth will someone be using that great name to work "FAKE" miracles,i pray that the annointing will not crush anyone of u.

Dear, this is nothing but the spirit of the devil. Christ was crucified, spat on, beaten, reviled, slapped YET He was busy forgiving His enemies and still found strength to save a dying thief.
Paul and the other early apostles suffered for Christ and YET still prayed for their enemies, healed the sick and brought salvation to the homes of their Roman conquerors . . .

How many times did any of the above go around threatening to crush others with the "anointing"?

No ones threatening anyone here, its just a prayer.
the problem here is that ppl refuse to see.
Badagry is the poorest town in this country today not becos theyy are not part of lagos,as a matter of fact thats the first town missionaries stepped upon.but there many men and women of God were killed,their blood still cries,remember God warned, touch not my annointed and do no harm unto my prophet

Africa enslaves the Isrealites,way back during the years of the Pharoahs,today they are still the poorest continent in the world.u dont touch Gods ppl and go free.

America is where they are today because they are Isreals number one ally. think about this

4 Him:

Dear, this is nothing but the spirit of the devil. Christ was crucified, spat on, beaten, reviled, slapped YET He was busy forgiving His enemies and still found strength to save a dying thief.
Paul and the other early apostles suffered for Christ and YET still prayed for their enemies, healed the sick and brought salvation to the homes of their Roman conquerors . . .

How many times did any of the above go around threatening to crush others with the "anointing"?

wealthyman:

u don't touch Gods people and go free.

my dear, only false prophets emphasis this. Our early apostolic fathers were busy evangelising even their jailors.

4 Him:

my dear, only false prophets emphasis this. Our early apostolic fathers were busy evangelising even their jailors.

you will kill someone o

@AKO

First, your statement: ''Even the guys that receive later, how do we know that they had genuine problems before?''

I insist as a matured christian, you dont bother yourself with this. Leave that for carnals to find out and sort out the so called medical question. A christian who has really come to know God wont use medical confirmation to ascertain the genuineness of a miracle. The carnals go for

Now, I want to get your point right. Are you saying Pastor Chris doesnt do instant miracle? or Instant miracle is not possible so whoever engages in it is fake/from the devil?

I like to get your point right

@Ako

On ZOE, there are 2 types of christians

1. They believe Jesus is their Lord and Saviour but they still live according to their senses/feelings.

2. They have come to know Jesus and who they really are and live according to the spirit

Zoe is beyond saying "Yes I believe Jesus came to die for me and rose again the 3rd day. Thats why I go to church, bla bla bla"

Zoe means you have come to know you derive your life from the spirit not from the blood in your veins. You have submitted yourself to the direction of the spirit. You feed on the words of God. hence your mentality has changed and it reflects in your words and actions.

You can claim to be a christian yet you havent activated the life that has been made available to you. Hence, you still dont have zoe. Zoe is just available but you havent accepted it.

First, your statement: ''Even the guys that receive later, how do we know that they had genuine problems before?''

I insist as a matured christian, you don't bother yourself with this. Leave that for carnals to find out and sort out the so called medical question.

I insist that as a mature christian, I ensure that I am listening to preachers who are connected to the real source. So it's important that they are spiritually and medically transparent for the benefit of 'mature' and 'immature' christians alike.

On ZOE, there are 2 types of christians

1. They believe Jesus is their Lord and Saviour but they still live according to their senses/feelings.

2. They have come to know Jesus and who they really are and live according to the spirit

Zoe is beyond saying "Yes I believe Jesus came to die for me and rose again the 3rd day. Thats why I go to church, bla bla bla"

Zoe means you have come to know you derive your life from the spirit not from the blood in your veins. You have submitted yourself to the direction of the spirit. You feed on the words of God. hence your mentality has changed and it reflects in your words and actions.

You can claim to be a christian yet you havent activated the life that has been made available to you. Hence, you still don't have zoe. Zoe is just available but you havent accepted it.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who taught you this stuff? You couldn't even quote one, one passage of scripture.
NOw let me share the biblical take on zoe.
Zoe is a Greek word, literarilly translated in English as life. However, like you said, this is not talking about the life that keeps us breathing because the Greek word for this (in the bible) is chay. All living creature have chay in them, e.g.
Ge 1:20 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let the waters <mayim> bring forth abundantly <sharats> the moving creature <sherets> that hath <nephesh> life <chay[/b]>, and fowl <`owph> that may fly <`uwph> above <`al> the earth <'erets> in the open <paniym> firmament <raqiya`> of heaven <shamayim>.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> God <'elohiym> formed <yatsar> man <'adam> of the dust <`aphar> of <min> the ground <'adamah>, and breathed <naphach> into his nostrils <'aph> [b]the breath <n@shamah> of life <chay>; and man <'adam> became a living <chay> soul <nephesh>.

Above is the difference between chay and zoe.

Hence what is zoe? Zoe is the life of God:
Joh 1:4 In him was life <zoe>; and the life <zoe> was the light of men.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


So we see that life is one of the characteristics of God, like love is. How then do men receive zoe?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life <ZOE>.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life <ZOE>.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


From this last scripture in particular, we see that the only prerequisite for receiving and having zoe is believing on Jesus, what we call being born again. The word 'everlasting' is the word 'aionios' in Greek, meaning ; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting (literarilly).

So do you agree with me that myself, yourself and all other christians have the substance called zoe in their spirits? More importantly, do you agree that scriptures cleary and directly contradict what you said:

You can claim to be a christian yet you havent activated the life that has been made available to you. Hence, you still don't have zoe. Zoe is just available but you havent accepted it.

Oh yes. Zoe.
Whatever happened to that (419) Zoe Ministries??

Their pastor suddenly went underground.

Did his own Zoe expire?

lol AKo, now I see another problem, You seem to know some greek words.

Now, go find out what it takes to HAVE. The word is LANBANO in greek. The life was made available through the belief but you must HAVE (lanbano- receive it) it. That part of receiving is left for you to do. You have to take it. SHALL HAVE (zoe is made available to him) but he still has to receive it himself, lanbano, go and find out man

imhotep:

Oh yes. Zoe.
Whatever happened to that (419) Zoe Ministries??

Their pastor suddenly went underground.

Did his own Zoe expire?

I have absolutely no idea and do not care about what you are saying. How can something thats everlasting expire?

A_K_O:

How can something thats everlasting expire?

I am asking the same question.

fyneguy:

lol AKo, now I see another problem, You seem to know some greek words.

Now, go find out what it takes to HAVE. The word is LANBANO in greek. The life was made available through the belief but you must HAVE (lanbano- receive it) it. That part of receiving is left for  you to do. You have to take it.  SHALL HAVE (zoe is made available to him) but he still has to receive it himself, lanbano, go and find out man

Anyway, its either one of us is checking the wrong dictionary or we are both taking the word out of context, due to our inablility to speak Greek.

I went back to my Strong's Greek Dictionary just like you said. In John  3:16, what I saw as 'have' is 'echo' meaning:
a primary verb; to hold such as possession; ability, contiuity, relation, or condition):--be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany I also suggest that you check this link for the correct interpretation of 'have' in good old John 3:16 :http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/frequency.cgi?number=2192&book=joh&translation=nsn

With regards to Lambano, here is a good example of the correct context in which it is used:
"Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive (lambano), so that your joy may be made full.


Now, looking at it from your own point of view, it IS possible for a christian to be ignorant of the 'zoe' in them. But the fact that they are ignorant does not mean it isn't there, I choose to stand by that.
Thanks for the discussion anyway, at least now I know the difference between lambano and echo. That's what healthy debate like this is for anyway. However, people like imhotep would only see it as 33,000 sects bickering at each other.  

imhotep:

I am asking the same question.

Well, it does not because its perpetual, okay? The dictionary defines perpetual as continuing all the time without changing or stopping. Isnt that synonymous with everlasting?

A_K_O:

Now, looking at it from your own point of view, it IS possible for a christian to be ignorant of the 'zoe' in them. But the fact that they are ignorant does not mean it isn't there, I choose to stand by that.

fyneguy has a slightly different view below ==>

fyneguy:
You can claim to be a christian yet you havent activated the life that has been made available to you. Hence, you still don't have zoe. Zoe is just available but you havent accepted it.

Now, this is the perfect recipe for future disagreement and division.

A_K_O:

Thanks for the discussion anyway, at least now I know the difference between lambano and echo. That's what healthy debate like this is for anyway. However, people like imhotep would only see it as 33,000 sects bickering at each other.

Disagreement and division leads to the creation of more sects that bicker at each other.

@AKO

I'm happy you are doing some research work on lambano.

Now lets get it right. Zoe is something that comes with attributes. When you have zoe, it reflects in your thoughts, your words, your actions and what happens to you. Zoe is no zoe when one is ignorant of it. It is the awareness/knowledge of zoe that makes it a virtue in a christian (this knowledge is called Ginosko)

That is why the word of God (logos) doesnt work just because it's in the bible(the letter killeth, anyway). It is when it becomes Rhema (through application to a certain situation) that it becomes useful and the power thereof is released. Now it depends on who is handling/applying the word. I liken it to the Constitution of a country. It is useless if not applied.

The bible says "My People perish for lack of knowledge", the words 'my people' 'perish' 'lack of knowledge' are very key. God's people ordinarily shouldnt perish because it's against the principle of eternal life. However, if you dont know and you are still God's people- christians- you may perish. If you have Zoe, are you expected to perish? NO! but you must 'lambano' zoe through the knowledge of God and His fullness, which breeds strong faith in God.

imhotep:

fyneguy has a slightly different view below ==>
Now, this is the perfect recipe for future  disagreement  and division.
Disagreement and division leads to the creation of more sects that bicker at each other.

Think about this: Is there really any CHURCH UNITY since in your opinion, the 33,000 sects keep bickering at each other, and the RCC  is perpetually disagreed with the protestants & vice versa? Why do you see the 33,000's disagreeing with each other as disunity, but the RCC's disagreement with protestants as the RCC's unity? What puts the RCC in that special class of its own that makes it unified even though it disagrees with others, yet the protestants are disunified for the same reason ? Please don't give me the bulahlah about the approval of the bible because we have exhaustively dealt with that.

Could the beaking up of the church into 33,001 sects be seen as the RCC's (since ya'll believe in apostolic succession) utter failure to keep the church together? If Jesus built His rock/church on Peter and Peter handed down to everyone else till Benedict-da-16th, should/should not the breaking away of some members of the church to other sects be blamed on poor leadership somewhere along the line?

I have said time and time again that I am personally not particular about what sectarian umbrella I am under; that the most important thing is doing what is in the bible, period. If you choose to see me as protestant just because I dont pray to Mary, etc, you are in a world of your own where I am concerned. I dont do a lot of what the RCC does because a lot of it is extra-biblical doctrine that has been approved by the leadership of the RCC but is not bible, hence is not compulsory for me to do. For clarity, I would no longer like to be referred to as 'protestant'. When next you want to generalise the 33,000, count me OUT. Your pride should not be in the fact that you belong to a '''unified''' sect, but that you are on your way to heaven and will get a good reward there.

Just some food for thought.

_{chei we don deviate from topic oh!!!}

God knows the truth if we, People are rite or they are just making up crap 4 d fun of it. Me i fear people more than anything. Oluwa ooooo they can use their small little mouth 2 destroy u n dey can also help u.

the battle is the lords