Speaking of colonization....Africa was mostly colonized due to the fact that most of Europe was industrialized. And industrialized nations>non industrialized. China met this same fate, because they refused to industrialize. This doesn't excuse Africans, because they could have industrialized. African leaders should have sent people to Europe and learned what the Europeans were doing and copied from the Europeans. China and Japan did this and now look at them.

Before China industrialized it was a sh*t hole, but look at it now.

I was addressing u , but talking in general at the same time you might b different but I'm tired of Africa pseudo past/old supremacy and claims all over the world.

My H Western civilization was too funny ..you see them screaming how they were kings and queens in Egypt like wtf..
Egypt was a monarchy just like many others African civilizations/ethnicities/kingdoms .most if not all were descendent of slaves/servants/prisoners/war spoils etc.

And African empires did 'expand' their empires, but just mostly not outside Africa. But...The Axumite Empire conquered lands outside Africa, like parts of Southwest Asia. The Almoravid empire conquered parts of the Iberian peninsula. And their were African kings that were kings of parts of India.

But anyways African empires DID in fact expand their empire, but just mostly outside of Africa. I mean a lot of empires didn't mostly expand outside their continent. The reason my European empires at the time were able to conquer so many lands was because again...They were industrialized. Meanwhile during Mansa Musa days Europe was a complete sh*thole.

Why didn't Alexander the Great conquer western Europe or northern Europe. He and his empire were like the strongest at the time.

KidStranglehold:

Before China industrialized it was a sh*t hole, but look at it now.

Not true, for most of human history China has been the greatest nation on earth.

Ask marco polo

and look up all the technological advances they made before Europeans could even dream of them.

CAMEROONPRIDE: I was addressing u , but talking in general at the same time you might b different but I'm tired of Africa pseudo past/old supremacy and claims all over the world.

True.

CAMEROONPRIDE:
My H Western civilization was too funny ..you see them screaming how they were kings and queens in Egypt like wtf..
Egypt was a monarchy just like many others African civilizations/ethnicities/kingdoms .most if not all were descendent of slaves/servants/prisoners/war spoils etc.

Again true and agreed.

And just pointing this out, but Ancient Egypt wasn't a slave state like many people believe.

CAMEROONPRIDE: I was addressing u , but talking in general at the same time you might b different but I'm tired of Africa pseudo past/old supremacy and claims all over the world.

My H Western civilization was too funny ..you see them screaming how they were kings and queens in Egypt like wtf..
Egypt was a monarchy just like many others African civilizations/ethnicities/kingdoms .most if not all were descendent of slaves/servants/prisoners/war spoils etc.

You are right I rather people deal with reality

KidStranglehold: And African empires did 'expand' their empires, but just mostly not outside Africa. But...The Axumite Empire conquered lands outside Africa, like parts of Southwest Asia. The Almoravid empire conquered parts of the Iberian peninsula. And their were African kings that were kings of parts of India.

But anyways African empires DID in fact expand their empire, but just mostly outside of Africa. I mean a lot of empires didn't mostly expand outside their continent. The reason my European empires at the time were able to conquer so many lands was because again...They were industrialized. Meanwhile during Mansa Musa days Europe was a complete sh*thole.

Why didn't Alexander the Great conquer western Europe or northern Europe. He and his empire were like the strongest at the time.

dude stop.

Was Spain industrialized when it conquered the Actec and Inca empires? was Rome industrialized when it took over half the known world?

Stop making excuses, the wealth of these nations was not even a fraction compared to Malis wealth and the maliens did nothing.

pleep: Not true, for most of human history China has been the greatest nation on earth.

Ask marco polo

and look up all the technological advances they made before Europeans could even dream of them.

Yeah and then after Europe(and Japan) industrialized they got their a$$e$ whooped. Large parts of China got conquered by Imperial Japanese Empire.
[img]http://rhapsodyinbooks.files./2011/03/japanese-empire.gif[/img]

And Japan didn't even have natural resources. They mostly relied on manufacturing.

Yeah before industrialization, China was great and advanced. I'm sure if China industrialized they too would have colonized people, but they didn't and couldn't.

China could have conquered all of Asia if they wanted to... but they didnt because it was against their pholosophy. That is why they failed

Medieval china had tributary states in africa during the 1400's

i cant get into much detail cuz im typing on my phone.. this thread is super interesting. lets continue tm, GN

pleep: dude stop.

Was Spain industrialized when it conquered the Actec and Inca empires? was Rome industrialized when it took over half the known world?

1. I am mostly talking about Africa.
2. I only said the colonization of Africa was mostly due to colonization which is TRUE. Because before that Africans were doing well against Europeans. Heck the Ashanti's beat the British in five wars.
3.Old war diseases mostly whipped out the Actec's and Incas's.
4. Rome didn't even conquer half the world. They couldn't even expand into the African interior because the Nubians acted as basically a buffer zone. My point with industrialization is that it made it easier to conquer people who were NOT industrialized.

pleep:
Stop making excuses, the wealth of these nations was not even a fraction compared to Malis wealth and the maliens did nothing.

No body is making excuses, its stating an opinion in this discussion. Its what makes the topic interesting... -__-

I agree the wealth should have been taken care of wisely. But when Mansa Musa died that when things went to sh*t. Mali was the one of the richest, most educated and successful empire at that time so Malians did do something. BUT...I NEVER disagreed with you on how he should have invested more into the military and expanded more...

Neolithic Revolution
9000 BC Asia
8000 BC Africa
7000 BC Europe

Bronze Age
3300 BC Asia
3200 BC Europe
3150 BC Africa

Civilization
3100 BC Africa
3000 BC Asia
1900 BC Europe

Iron Age
1300 Asia
1300 Africa
1200 Europe

Industrial Revolution
1750 Europe
1870 Asia
Africa has yet to ''Industrialize'' with South Africa being the first and only one which doesn't count as it was the British who did it.

Right now Europe(Western Europe/Western World) is leading in the Industrial age. Which is why the are the strongest.

And no I am not making excuses for Africans, because Africans SHOULD have industrialized.

pleep: No empire has ever lasted forever. But the ones who expanded have passed down a legacy to their decendants while the ones that didn't passed down a history of slavery and colonialization

which is better?

Well Mali did expand widely - within West Africa. The Malian army was still warring with surrounding peoples (such as the rebellious Gao kingdom, which they re-conquered) even while he was making his pilgrimage.

I would be interested in seeing what you think the rationale would have been for a devout Muslim leader to expand to the northeast and invade North Africa (which had a lot of Muslims) and the Middle East (which had a lot of Muslims) on his way toward world conquest, even as he was making a pilgrimage to the most important Muslim holy site and also trying to acquire more knowledge from other Muslims.

pleep: China could have conquered all of Asia if they wanted to... but they didnt because it was against their pholosophy. That is why they failed

Medieval china had tributary states in africa during the 1400's

Which African states were tributary to China?

Are you talking about Malindi, Mogadishu, and Barawa and other places on the eastern coast of Africa? I don't think those places were actually tributary. It seems like they were exchanging gifts as a prelude to opening up more trade. The Chinese gave them gifts as well. Here's a direct account which mentions one of the instances where the Chinese gave gifts when they visited a certain kingdom in eastern Africa: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xuq7QCmY6jQC&pg=PA44

PhysicsQED:

Which African states were tributary to China?

Are you talking about Malindi, Mogadishu, and Barawa? I don't think those places were actually tributary. It seems like they were exchanging gifts as a prelude to opening up more trade. The Chinese gave them gifts as well.

Yeah China did a lot of trade with Africa during that time. IIRC...I believe Swahili states have done trade with China.

Maybe he talk about the malindi 1415 they sent giraffe to the emperor of china as a gift.

For certain our history is not failure history how can first civilize history be a failure one? How ever it is hard for me read about mansu musa also and pleep could have some what case with the man wealth.

The way I see them if mali empire is manage more quality then no reason stands mali should not have been the first industrialize territory in africa. Rather early industrialize territory at that! If the man simple had not cloud his thought with so much non sense "go ride camel 3000 mile to worship black rock" better ideas for the improvement of the territory could have fill the void. This is why foreign religion big danger with africa.

all nice discussion men

heavenly_nzinga:

"go ride camel 3000 mile to worship black rock"

Lool

I mean the Mali empire was still successful under Mansa Musa. During that time it was way superior to anything in Europe. But its true Mansa Musa did have his flaws. But it really wasn't his fault, it was mostly his descendants that didn't even know how to handle the wealth. So pleep does have some what of a point that some black men don't know how to old on to their wealth for a decade.

KidStranglehold: I mean the Mali empire was still successful under Mansa Musa. During that time it was way superior to anything in Europe. But its true Mansa Musa did have his flaws. But it really wasn't his fault, it was mostly his descendants that didn't even know how to handle the wealth. So pleep does have some what of a point that some black men don't know how to old on to their wealth for a decade.

Hear you kidstrangle, but with kind of surplus commodities under musa influence gold, salt etc musa could have easy break influence of islam even if it mean finally put some wealth to real use by war. Let us just say the man could not see the forest for the tree.

heavenly_nzinga:

Hear you kidstrangle, but with kind of surplus commodities under musa influence gold, salt etc musa could have easy break influence of islam even if it mean finally put some wealth to real use by war. Let us just say the man could not see the forest for the tree.

Well not trying to sound ridiculous...The Mali Empire was like an 'African Athens'. It seems they didn't really care about building up their military, but developing their education. I mean HALF the population in Mali at that time were educated and in school. They had the best scholars and teachers. Also Islam during that time was at its height, their were MANY advanced Muslim civilizations, so I don't think they would have wanted to break away from it.

I mean the Muslim Moors literally civilized Christian Europe. And the Muslim Ottoman empire was so advanced and powerful that Europeans needed another way of reaching India, hence the accidental discovery of the Americas(sorta).

Not trying to d*ck ride Islam btw. I HATE Islam.

It was knowledge that civil europe not islam it was knowledge nothing more nothing less. Today there are many advance christian nation but really I hope we break away from the civil trade and tax policies they impose on us.

Musa did not want to break away for it was the caravan that would then be under constant attack by muslim.

heavenly_nzinga: It was knowledge that civil europe not islam it was knowledge nothing more nothing less. Today there are many advance christian nation but really I hope we break away from the civil trade and tax policies they impose on us.

I never said it was specifically Islam that civilized Europe, but a Islamic group. What I am trying to say is the people who worshiped Islam weren't always as barbaric as seen today.

PhysicsQED:

Which African states were tributary to China?

Are you talking about Malindi, Mogadishu, and Barawa and other places on the eastern coast of Africa? I don't think those places were actually tributary. It seems like they were exchanging gifts as a prelude to opening up more trade. The Chinese gave them gifts as well. Here's a direct account which mentions one of the instances where the Chinese gave gifts when they visited a certain kingdom in eastern Africa: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xuq7QCmY6jQC&pg=PA44

"The discovers" by daneil j. Boorstein lists those as tributary states.

heavenly_nzinga: Maybe he talk about the malindi 1415 they sent giraffe to the emperor of china as a gift.

Yes, exactly.

PhysicsQED:

Well Mali did expand widely - within West Africa. The Malian army was still warring with surrounding peoples (such as the rebellious Gao kingdom, which they re-conquered) even while he was making his pilgrimage.

I would be interested in seeing what you think the rationale would have been for a devout Muslim leader to expand to the northeast and invade North Africa (which had a lot of Muslims) and the Middle East (which had a lot of Muslims) on his way toward world conquest, even as he was making a pilgrimage to the most important Muslim holy site and also trying to acquire more knowledge from other Muslims.

lol did this stop the Morrocans from conquering the Songhai with a measly 2500 troops?

Did that stop the muslims states from fighting with each other?

I love religion... islam is a great religion, but why is it that when a negro gets religion he goes over board with it and self destructs?

There is something wrong with the brain here... this is a man who had control of almost all the salt and gold in the world, he could have recruited a mercenary army bigger than anything else on earth. Just compare him to the Phoenecians (Cartheginans) who raised an army big enough to take on Rome based on mercenary troops alone.

Musa was not even smart enough to capture a foothold in the mediteranian... he had the logistics to transport 60k men and billions of Gold and all he did was give it away.

dumb dumb dumb

Mansa Musa had nothing to do with the Songhai empire and its collapsed. That happened long after Mansa Musa.

Just saying.

dude.

Bro.

Speaking of Songhai.... the fall of Songhai at Tondibi is probably the most shamefull battle in human history.

Morocoo with 2,500 men vs shongai 9,700 infantry 12,500 cavalry.

Morocco fires a couple cannon shots... and all the niggas scatter. FML, why africa!

lol.

Over 20,000 troops vs 2500.

People love to talk about how great mali is, but i call BS... were are all the stone buildings? were is the remains of greatness, did rome's monuments disapear after the empire collapsed?

All mali has left is some mosque made out of mud, MUD

^ that thing wouldn't even be there if the people of Timbuktu didn't re-mud it every year for the last 600 years.

But Mansa Musa had enough gold to build 100 pyramids!, the pyramids cost the Eygptians around 5 billion each and Musa had 400 billion and he did nothing.

[size=20pt]What a dumbass![/size]