DrummaBoy: For me, Ayokun OP is a sort of middle line btw Goshen and the likes of Bidam
He talks about a righteousness as a gift of grace, then he talks of a walk to perfection. Pray, is that not scripture?!

But alas, the unteachable will remain so.

Gbile Akaani, many yrs ago, spoke of potential difference, PD. That for an audience to receive from a teacher, there must be a PD btw them so that knowledge can flow, same way U have it in electricity. Because, NL offers anonymity we don't know who each other and so cannot appreciate PD. But someone who with discernment should be able to see it.

Ayokun has PD in spiritual matters and we would do well to sit back and learn, and not waste time disputing what is undisputable.

Ihedinobi: @Ayoku777

Did you see my questions?

Bidam: but Christ is the lawgiver na..why can't you see it?

PhenomenonVFX: Obadiah777!!! Where be ye?! Thou scourge of atheists, bane of mainstream Christians, nemesis of caucasians and confuser of me. Thy attention be needed here


**twiddling my moustache** this is really going to be lovely

obadiah777: I BE HERE SIR. I TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM GRACE ARGUMENTS. THOSE WITH THE GRACE DOCTRINE ARE ATTACHED TO IT LIKE A BABY IS ATTACHED TO DIAPERS. YOU CAN NEVER SEPARATE THEM FROM THEIR GRACE. SUP GOSHEN

ayoku777: @ Ihedinobi

Read that passage in Matt 12 and draw conclusions from it. Jesus said what David did was UNLAWFUL and he also said the priests PROFANED the sabbath and yet are blameless. Profaning the priesthood and the sabbath are offences that condemnable under the law and I cited you the examples of Saul in 1Sam 13v9-14 and the man in Nun 15v32-36. They were judged for doing what David and the priests did and do, yet they were blameless

So Jesus used examples of scriptural characters who were called blameless even after doing 'unlawful' and 'profane' things to justify his disciples actions. Now that shows that he admitted what his disciples did, but he still called them guiltless, on the platform of the reason he gave in Matt 12v7, namely mercy.

And there is nothing wrong with inferring in scripture, as long as its not done arbitrarily or presumptuously, but with a pure, Spirit-led heart. Having issues with inferring will be like telling Paul that how did he know that Hagar and Sarah represented two covenants in Gal 4v22-24? Did the scripture say that exactly or he inferred. Ofcourse he inferred, but it was Spirit-led. Thanks, be blessed.

Candour: I'm so thrilled with the discussions going on between ayoku,ihedinobi and shdemidemi.You guys might not know it but i believe you are pointing towards the same conclusion which is Grace supercedes every other thing.

learning mode activated and i appreciate other contributors who have refused to turn this thread into another bashing thread.

Please continue so that students like us can benefit greatly

God bless you all.

Ihedinobi: @Goshen

To the Nation of Israel.

Ihedinobi: @Goshen

Now I ask you, does the Bible hold the nation of Israel to be a type of the Church?

Ihedinobi:

If you know where it's headed, then you're not a student. You're a master.

We may not reach a compromise here. Experience has taught me that we believers are ordinarily rather like a dog with a bone with our favorite doctrines. I understand that too because at each stage of development that we're at, there are certain understandings that are necessary to our growth. And we do not let them go easily. However, it is the way of the Lord to keep putting out calls to take us higher than those stages and beyond those understandings.

That is what my work here is. I will give what I have been given, tell what I have been told, pour out what I have received and trust the Lord to enlighten the hearers of His Word.

Finally, indeed it is true that we are converging on Grace but not as greater than anything else. Rather we are coming to the real meaning of Grace and how it relates to the Law.

Goshen360:

Then, on what scriptures do you or does it apply to the church?

Yes, the national Israel is a type and shadow of the church. Now that the substance or the types\shadows are ALREADY FULFILLED in Christ and the church, why do we still hold to the types and shadows or confuse the shadows with the substance?

Also, this type and shadow, national Israel is now part of the ONE NEW MAN, THE CHURCH. So, in Christ, no more Jews or Gentiles. Does the types and shadows still exist in Christ?

Candour:

Master ke?? i'm a student o

I just love the way the 3 of you open the bible and comment on the verses.i see depth and it edifies me.

you know my brother,even Abraham was called righteous simply because he believed in God(Gen 15:6).i think that's a testament to how great God's grace is in the salvation of our souls.

anyway....enough talk from this student.Let the teachers continue

God bless us all

DrummaBoy: @Ayokun
Let us assume that most readers of this thread have understood the grace doctrine;
Question: How then do we move unto perfection, still in the light of the grace of God?

My assumption is an ASSUMPTION, because it would take the GRACE of God for those Judaizers to 'get it' in this life.

Ihedinobi:

What new thing can I say in answer to this?

Ihedinobi:

So if the old Israel corresponds to the Church, what corresponds to the Mosaic Law?

Ihedinobi:

With regard to Grace, I will say to you what I said to Goshen on another thread as a summary. Grace means nothing without the Law.

Ihedinobi:

The bolded is one thing that I have no pleasure in. When we come together as we do on forums like this, it is not to impress with erudition. The show of knowledge can easily take the place of Love which edifies. When I give what I have received, I am also in hope that I will receive what anothwr has been given. But when it becomes a show and wrestling of wits, Christ is not even remotely glorified.

With regard to Grace, I will say to you what I said to Goshen on another thread as a summary. Grace means nothing without the Law.

It is because we are incapable of meeting God's Standard on our own that God offers to satisfy in our own behalf the demands of His Holiness. That is Grace. The Law reveals this Standard of His and also shows us our inability to meet it. If we did not know it, we would not try to meet it. If we did not try to meet it, we would not realize that we couldn't. If we do not realize that we can't even though we must, we cannot appreciate our need for help.

If we do not appreciate our need for help, we can neither ask for it nor accept it when it is offered. That help is Grace.

Goshen360:

You didn't answer the question. On what scriptural ground do you or does these mosaic laws then applies to the substance (the church) if it wasn't written to or given to them in the first place? Knowing that the types and the non types (gentiles) are now one new man, called the church.

That's the law of the Spirit, the law of Christ, love. That mosaic and\or Sinai was fulfilled and thereby null\void. Not that the mosaic still tallies or carried over into the new covenant for the church, no!

Goshen360:

On the above, in red; I completely AGREE & STAND BY THE TRUTH OF YOUR STATEMENT 100% BUT what law? Mosaic or messianic law? I do not teach that grace means lawlessness but what law are Christians under? Of mosaic or messianic?

Please answer to this so I clearly know your stand?

Ihedinobi:

My brother, please pay a little more attention. I implied that I had already answered the question and had nothing to add to my previous answers

Ihedinobi:

What is the relationship between a type and its anti-type?