Alwaystrue:

Romans 2:28-29
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision
29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

Same thing I said, do you think your statement is different?
Romans 2:11
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Bidam: My understanding of the book of Galatians is that there were recent Jewish converts who had an incorrect or incomplete view of faith/salvation.

Actually,the Galatian church was predominately Gentile Christian founded in the city of Galatia up in asia minor which is present day Turkey.They were converted through Paul's preaching from a chiefly pagan background.However Judaizers had started infiltrating them and telling them in addition to faith in the saving blood of Christ,they also had to keep the law of Moses(Torah) just like they did to the Gentile Christians in Antioch(Acts 15:1)

This is shown in several places including; 2:3-5; 3:1-4; 5:2-11 and 6:12-15. These people were telling new Galatians converts that you had to do certain things for salvation, other than trust in God through Jesus. They were of the same faction mentioned in Acts 15.

i am in agreement with you here.

Note however, that these men also had an incorrect idea on what Paul was in fact teaching, accusing him of teaching against the Torah. If ever Paul had the opportunity to show that we no longer had to follow the Torah, this was it -- However, Paul denied the charge that he taught against Torah in the strongest way possible, by taking a Nazarite vow (Acts 21:21-26). This involved him performing sacrifices and offerings (Numbers 6:1-21).

The crux of this book is Paul telling these Gentile converts that they had no business with the Torah.the charge Paul denied was the accusation that he was teaching Jews who were among Gentiles to forget about Moses.see
Acts 21:21
''And they are informed of thee,that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,saying that they ought not to circumcise their children,neither to walk after the customs.''

The position of the Apostles on how the Law relates to the Gentiles had already been settled at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:1-31 which is Gentile Christians(you,i and every other contributor on this thread) had no business with the Torah.

When Paul shaved his head and performed the sacrifices,it was to show to James and the rest of Isreal that he was not against the Torah himself being a Jew however,Gentile believers like you and i have no business with it otherwise we should still be re-enacting those sacrifices that Paul and obviously the apostles still practiced.this confirms that the 12 Apostles in Jerusalem were still neck deep in Judaism hence confirming what Paul said in
Gal 2:7
''But contrariwise,when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision(Gentile audience) was committed unto me,as the gospel of the circumcision(Jewish audience) was unto Peter:''

Paul had the gospel of uncircumcision(Grace) while peter had the gospel of circumcision(based on the law and prophets)

Paul's message to the Galatians is to remind them of the correct equation:

Torah-based faith + Nothing Else = Salvation

This is the same message Moses gave his people in his day.

Gal 3:7
''Know ye therefore that they which are of faith,the same are the children of Abraham''

Abraham was justified(Gen 15:6,Rom 4:3)500 years before Moses appeared with the law.It wasn't Torah based and since we are linked directly to Abraham(Gal 3:14),we too are justified without the Torah.

The correct equation is simply Faith + Nothing else=Salvation

Paul does discuss "lifestyle" at the end of this letter. In Galatians 5:16-22, Paul makes a comparison between "walking in the spirit" and "walking in the flesh." He defines those who walk in flesh in verses 19-21 (adulterers, fornicators, sorcerers, etc.) What do those all have in common? They are all transgressions of the Torah. They are violators of the "negative commandments" of the Torah.

Yes Paul does discuss lifestyle of the flesh and it all stems from a lack of love.If you love God,surely you'll love your Neighbour and if you love your Neighbour,adultery,fornication,sorcery will not come close to you.A born again Christian is one who has received new nature(2 Cor5:17) and the spirit of God which suppresses the love of the things of the flesh enumerated in Gal 5:20-21.In Gal 5:22-23,Paul lists the fruit of the Spirit and concludes that no law can find fault with this.How can somebody who has the temperance(self control) of the spirit ever seek for illicit pleasure through adultery or fornication? it doesn't add up.

The Law was our schoolmaster(Gal 3:24) letting us know what God doesn't like and our inability to do good by our self but the Spirit of God empowers us not to run foul of the law by helping us express true love for God and our neighbours through the fruits of the spirit.Jesus Christ summed up the totality of the law when he said ''Love God and love your Neighbour as yourself''

Any 'CHRISTIAN' who sees nothing wrong in SIN as partially enumerated in Gal 5:20-21 is very doubtful.

Because modern interpretation of Scripture is founded on a Greek/western approach and not a Hebrew one, verse after verse in the "New Testament" are stripped from the original context in which the Torah-observant authors wrote them. In place of this, an anti-Torah "spin" has been placed on the Word of the God of Israel.

taking what the scripture says without trying to make it say what we think it should say will help us mitigate this problem.

peace my brother

Alwaystrue:

Romans 2:28-29
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision
29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

I think I already told our brothers this. Thank you for producing the Scripture.

Ihedinobi: If you ask me what Law and give me options when I have consistently held that there is only one Law, what do you expect me to answer, Zikkyy? Choose which Law you prefer. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, there is only one Law and it is Christ. And I have not minced words about that in any discussion pertaining to this issue.

Na so you talk am? okay o so i can update that ya post na

Ihedinobi:
With regard to Grace, I will say to you what I said to Goshen on another thread as a summary. Grace means nothing without the Law Christ.

i think this one make sense. abi, how you see am?

edit: so i expect you guys to teach Christ o! i don't wanna read any old school law stuff around here

Bidam:
The whole bible is NOT a logical book, it is a spiritual book.

i ask one question and you are responding to something else all i wanted to know was how to classify the Nigerian law? Natural or spiritual. that simple question was all it take for you start speaking in tongues

May Christ grant us understanding, if i have to type all the scriptures i have to back up this revelation it will be like writing a book. Christ and the law can't co-habit under the same covenant. Why did God ask Peter to kill and eat the same animals that he forbad under the law, if the law still had a say under grace? Why did Moses and Elijah vanish on the mount of transfiguration, leaving only Jesus? Jesus did not come to give Moses a hand, he came to end his dispensation. Many many many more instances in scripture where God preached this truth. The law is done away with, that is an unapologetic truth in scripture

Bidam:
Paul's message to the Galatians is to remind them of the correct equation:

Torah-based faith + Nothing Else = Salvation

Na wa o!

Galatians 3:2 (NIV)
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

My quoting Galatians 3:2 is based on the assumption that you actually received the spirit i could be wrong

For people like you Jesus was wasting his time on the cross

Zikkyy:

Na so you talk am? okay o so i can update that ya post na



i think this one make sense. abi, how you see am?

edit: so i expect you guys to teach Christ o! i don't wanna read any old school law stuff around here

And have we not been teaching Christ?

Ihedinobi:

And have we not been teaching Christ?

oga read my post very well. am not saying you have not been teaching Christ all am saying saying is that i don't wanna read any old school law stuff from you. Anyways, have seen the reason why you said 'the law' sorry Christ is very relevant to Christians (on the tithing thread )

Ihedinobi:

And have we not been teaching Christ?

NO! You teach Christ and ADD Obedience to the LAW OF MOSES! The law was put in place UNTIL Christ should come, so that we can see the need we cannot fulfill the law of Moses and in need of a Saviour. Now that Christ had already come, we no longer need the MOSAIC LAW to tell us what is right or wrong. We now have the Spirit of God in us to convict us of right and wrong! That's the whole essence of this debate. Teaching Christ and adding the mosaic law = Christ + Judaism and that is = Christ of NON EFFECT (or CUT OFF FROM CHRIST) which is also = fallen from Grace of God! Galatians 5:3-4

New Living Translation (©2007)
I'll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.

Zikkyy:

Na wa o!

Galatians 3:2 (NIV)
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

My quoting Galatians 3:2 is based on the assumption that you actually received the spirit i could be wrong

For people like you Jesus was wasting his time on the cross

@ zikkyy

thanks for the scripture you brought up, this truth is so simple, im amazed it has brought up such a long debate. If works had no say in our receiving the spirit, then it cant have a say in our keeping him. The law cant revoke what it didnt provoke, and the law didnt provoke our receiving salvation, righteousness and the holy spirit.

Goshen360:

NO! You teach Christ and ADD Obedience to the LAW OF MOSES! The law was put in place UNTIL Christ should come, now that Christ had already come, we no longer need the MOSAIC LAW to tell us what is right or wrong. We now have the Spirit of God in us to convict us of right and wrong! That's the whole essence of this debate. Teaching Christ and adding the mosaic law = Christ + Judaism and that is = Christ of NON EFFECT!

@ Goshen

thanks, why would we need to know what the law says to do and what not to do when i can just be spirit-led and let him live out the life of Christ through me. People thing the holy spirit is given to help us obey the law, no, he helps us manifest the life of Christ in us

@ Alwaystrue & Ihedinobi & Bidam & perhaps, Enigma,

When you guys says Grace helps us to keep the law. You guys need to tell us which law? Mosaic law or Christ law? However, there's nothing like Grace helps us to keep the Mosaic law. No where in scriptures did Christians received Grace so they can continue to live by the Mosaic law. If you find one, please show us.

@ Ihedinobi,

As per Grace is DIFFERENT from law and you said there's only one law but I said there're two, of Moses and of Christ; here are the scriptures.

1. New Living Translation (©2007)
This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." Galatians 3:12

2. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

3. New Living Translation (©2007)
When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21

4. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9

5. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; Luke 2:22

Now, tell us, is "the law of Moses" the SAME AS "the law of Christ"?

ayoku777:

@ zikkyy

thanks for the scripture you brought up, this truth is so simple, im amazed it has brought up such a long debate. If works had no say in our receiving the spirit, then it cant have a say in our keeping him. The law cant revoke what it didnt provoke, and the law didnt provoke our receiving salvation, righteousness and the holy spirit.

Honestly, I had to read Galatians again and again and it was full of revelation. Saved by Grace and continue to keep the salvation by the law of Moses is strictly no Christianity! What law did they (Galatians) obey to be saved? That was Paul's question to them. If none, how then do they begin in the Spirit (saved by Grace through faith) and going back and want to make perfection by keeping the mosaic law?

Zikkyy:

oga read my post very well. am not saying you have not been teaching Christ all am saying saying is that i don't wanna read any old school law stuff from you. Anyways, have seen the reason why you said 'the law' sorry Christ is very relevant to Christians (on the tithing thread )

So you have, have you? Pray tell, what's the reason?

ayoku777:

@ Goshen

thanks, why would we need to know what the law says to do and what not to do when i can just be spirit-led and let him live out the life of Christ through me. People thing the holy spirit is given to help us obey the law, no, he helps us manifest the life of Christ in us

This is the problem am having with the law lovers, how can somebody that claimed to be spirit led be reading the law for guidance? in a way i see it as the spirit himself flipping through the pages of the mosaic law for direction. Its either you are book-led or you are spirit led. to return to the book implies doubt or lack of confidence in the spirit.

Goshen360:

NO! You teach Christ and ADD Obedience to the LAW OF MOSES! The law was put in place UNTIL Christ should come, so that we can see the need we cannot fulfill the law of Moses and in need of a Saviour. Now that Christ had already come, we no longer need the MOSAIC LAW to tell us what is right or wrong. We now have the Spirit of God in us to convict us of right and wrong! That's the whole essence of this debate. Teaching Christ and adding the mosaic law = Christ + Judaism and that is = Christ of NON EFFECT!

@bolded: the obvious question is where the Scriptures say so. But I'm not as interested in that as I am in the sense in what you said here. What is the right and wrong that the Spirit convicts us of? How do we know that we have been convicted of a wrong or encouraged in a right?

Ihedinobi:

So you have, have you? Pray tell, what's the reason?

abeg go to the tithing thread jor have stated the reason there

Goshen360:
@ Alwaystrue & Ihedinobi & Bidam & perhaps, Enigma,

leave Enigma out of it, i think the man just want you to exercise some caution. That's all

I am blessed just reading tro this thread. My contribution is this, the bible is the word of God, he has integrity and can defend himself. Our problems is that some of us prefer our human teachers to the Holy Spirit. Now i undastand Grace tro my identification of 4 major dispensations in the existence of man 1. The dispensation of Life(gen 2:7), 2. Death (gen 3 - exo 20) the bible says in Rm5:14 "nevertheless DEATH REIGNED from Adam to Moses...", 3. The dispensation of Law, from gen 20 to the death of Jesus and finaly 4. Grace, from after the death of Jesus till date. Today belongs to Grace, the Law had it aloted period and served the jews as it was intended, even during it reign the non- jews had no portion in it, as a Calabar man my projenitors knew nothing and were not served by the law. The law came so that any jew who kept it will have the full benefits, pls refer to the encounter between Jesus and the rich young ruler in Matt 19:16-20, today the law is not needed but Grace, and by the grace of God tro Jesus we who had no God and who were not a people, are a people of God. Tro the grace of Jesus man has been restored back to the original purpose of God to be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, subdue it and have dominion over other creations of God no need for sacrifice, tithe, sowing of seeds and other carnal activities. God bless.

Ihedinobi:

@bolded: the obvious question is where the Scriptures say so.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; C an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [ faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24].

Galatians 3:24-25.

Ihedinobi:

But I'm not as interested in that as I am in the sense in what you said here. What is the right and wrong that the Spirit convicts us of? How do we know that we have been convicted of a wrong or encouraged in a right?

Ihedinobi,

You're still allowing the Mosaic law which wasn't written to you as a Christian to tell or guide or lead you as to what is right or wrong. That's Judaism, a religion according of the law of Moses. When Christ, Grace and the Spirit came, you are now set free from the law of Moses to serve in the newness of spirit. It used to be the law that tells people what is right or wrong but now, it is the Spirit of God that tells Christians what is right or wrong through the knowledge of the word of God.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In the same way, my brothers and sisters, ·your old selves died, and you became free from the law [ you died to the law] through the body of Christ. This happened so that you might belong to someone else—the One who was raised from the dead—and so that we might ·be used in service to [ bear fruit for] God.

Romans 7:4

You remember this scripture we were sharing from the other thread right? I'm sure you do. Now, it's like this; when you as a Nigerian leave the country and migrate to another country and becomes the citizen of the new country. This new country is where you live, earn your income, make a good living and meet all your needs. Should anything happen say for instance, war. Who are you gonna bear allegiance to?

This is the same way Paul described the WAR between the Spirit and the flesh (the law). Now when you died or crucified with Christ, you died to sin, its appetite and also died to the law (of Moses), Romans 7:4 because through the law is the knowledge or consciousness of sin, Romans 3:20 & 7:7 and you're left with the Spirit to guide or lead you. This the the war going on between most Christians and they don't know how to win this war. Simply submit or yield to the leading of the Spirit, you're already dead to the law and its consciousness to tell you what is right and wrong. Put in a better way, the Spirit in this dispensation had replaced the law of Moses to tell Christians how to live right or wrong.

Zikkyy:

leave Enigma out of it, i think the man just want you to exercise some caution. That's all

I understand him though, thanked him and have apologized. Sometimes, I play too much you know and get carried away.

ayoku777:

@ Goshen

thanks, why would we need to know what the law says to do and what not to do when i can just be spirit-led and let him live out the life of Christ through me. People thing the holy spirit is given to help us obey the law, no, he helps us manifest the life of Christ in us

@bolded: what are the characteristics, features or qualities of this Life? How is it identified and distinguished from any other Life?

Candour: The crux of this book is Paul telling these Gentile converts that they had no business with the Torah.the charge Paul denied was the accusation that he was teaching Jews who were among Gentiles to forget about Moses.see
Acts 21:21
''And they are informed of thee,that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,saying that they ought not to circumcise their children,neither to walk after the customs.''

The position of the Apostles on how the Law relates to the Gentiles had already been settled at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:1-31 which is Gentile Christians(you,i and every other contributor on this thread) had no business with the Torah.

When Paul shaved his head and performed the sacrifices,it was to show to James and the rest of Isreal that he was not against the Torah himself being a Jew however,Gentile believers like you and i have no business with it otherwise we should still be re-enacting those sacrifices that Paul and obviously the apostles still practiced.this confirms that the 12 Apostles in Jerusalem were still neck deep in Judaism hence confirming what Paul said in
Gal 2:7
''But contrariwise,when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision(Gentile audience) was committed unto me,as the gospel of the circumcision(Jewish audience) was unto Peter:''



The correct equation is simply Faith + Nothing else=Salvation

As an Orthodox Rabbi, Paul taught that Torah was indeed for Gentiles -- not for salvation, but as the direction they should be encouraged to follow subsequent to coming to faith. (As i mentioned, this was proclaimed by the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:21).

Zikkyy:

i ask one question and you are responding to something else all i wanted to know was how to classify the Nigerian law? Natural or spiritual. that simple question was all it take for you start speaking in tongues

My brother read between the lines.Once have i spoken....

Mehn oga Goshen, you sabi type o, wish i had your patience to show all the scriptures to back up points. More grace

Zikkyy:

Na wa o!

Galatians 3:2 (NIV)
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

My quoting Galatians 3:2 is based on the assumption that you actually received the spirit i could be wrong

For people like you Jesus was wasting his time on the cross

@ the emboldened before the compilations of the NT. WHAT BOOKS ARE READ IN THE SYNAGOGUE EVERY SABBATH?

Goshen360: @ Alwaystrue & Ihedinobi & Bidam & perhaps, Enigma,

When you guys says Grace helps us to keep the law. You guys need to tell us which law? Mosaic law or Christ law? However, there's nothing like Grace helps us to keep the Mosaic law. No where in scriptures did Christians received Grace so they can continue to live by the Mosaic law. If you find one, please show us.

@ Ihedinobi,

As per Grace is DIFFERENT from law and you said there's only one law but I said there're two, of Moses and of Christ; here are the scriptures.

1. New Living Translation (©2007)
This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." Galatians 3:12

So which is the law of Moses and which the law of Christ?

2. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

What does the law of Moses say regarding this?

3. New Living Translation (©2007)
When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21

I see three laws here: the Jewish law, the law of God and the law of Christ. Which of the first two is the law of Moses and how come there's a third when you said there are only two?

4. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9

And what does the law of Christ say about it?

5. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; Luke 2:22

What does the law of Christ say about this?

Now, tell us, is "the law of Moses" the SAME AS "the law of Christ"?

Well, if the two are different laws, they should differ on issues or address different things, I hope you can show their differences.

Zikkyy:

This is the problem am having with the law lovers, how can somebody that claimed to be spirit led be reading the reading the law for guidance? in a way i see it as the spirit himself flipping through the pages of the mosaic law for direction. Its either you are book-led or you are spirit led. to return to the book implies doubt or lack of confidence in the spirit.

I imagine you can reconcile this with the same Scripture you quoted on Goshen's thread from Paul's first letter to Timothy talking about how all Scripture is inspired by God and useful for instruction, correction, rebuking, exhortation and making perfect the man of God. I'd like to hear the reconciliation.

Zikkyy:

This is the problem am having with the law lovers, how can somebody that claimed to be spirit led be reading the reading the law for guidance? in a way i see it as the spirit himself flipping through the pages of the mosaic law for direction. Its either you are book-led or you are spirit led. to return to the book implies doubt or lack of confidence in the spirit.

I think you might as well tear the OT from your bible.This your statement get as e bi..are you telling us Jesus never read the Torah or Paul and the others for guidance?

Goshen360:

Honestly, I had to read Galatians again and again and it was full of revelation. Saved by Grace and continue to keep the salvation by the law of Moses is strictly no Christianity! What law did they (Galatians) obey to be saved? That was Paul's question to them. If none, how then do they begin in the Spirit (saved by Grace through faith) and going back and want to make perfection by keeping the mosaic law?

We are to search and study, rightly dividing the Word (according to Torah) with God's Spirit. We are not to casually read and wait for some "personal enlightenment." This is how false teachings come about, how cults are formed and how people fall into grave sin without realizing it.

Zikkyy:

abeg go to the tithing thread jor have stated the reason there

Well, since you mentioned it here, I figured it's just as well that we carry it on here especially considering that others may have been looking for the fire too.

So this is why?

zikkyy: Lol! i knew there has to be a reason for your loving moses  am yet to see a lover of moses with no tithe sorry strings attached 

BTW am not making it an issue it's your life, live it. Just don't preach it sha