As much as I agree with shdemidemi on the gospel of grace I do not share his views that healing has ceased with the apostles

I however consider it a minor point of doctrine which can be accommodated

What I cannot accommodate is neo-Judaism

DrummaBoy: As much as I agree with shdemidemi on the gospel of grace I do not share his views that healing has ceased with the apostles

I however consider it a minor point of doctrine which can be accommodated

What I cannot accommodate is neo-Judaism

I agree , healing has not stopped.

obadiah777: LOOK AT THIS GAINSAYER LOL. THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT AS EXPRESSED IN THE VERSE YOU QUOTED IS INSTRUCTIONS TO THE ELECT IN HOW TO NOW CONDUCT THEMSELVES SEEING AS THEY ARE NOW SEALED AND SAVED AND ABOVE THE LAW BUT HAVE NOT TRANSFERED INTO THE NEW COVENANT OF CORRUPTION INHERITING INCORRUPTION. HOWEVER TO THOSE NOT SEALED AND SAVED YET ? THE LAW IS THE GUIDANCE.

Me gainsayer?

Do you know those who the letter was meant for? Read Galatians 1 and stop trying to wear your left shoe on the right foot. Pauls ministry was different and he is not teaching the apostles. When he spoke before the apostles in acts we knew.

You do err you Reprobate pharisee

shdemidemi:

my friend, i believe the problem is in your head, sort that out then we can move on. What do you mean by what the conscience does?
I will try, I hope I can help you this time..the conscience interpret wrong from right in us.
May be this will help you a bit, when the bible refer to law or the end of it-it is talking about the law of Moses.

Sir, can i also say that the conscience was what Adam and eve made use of when they knew good and bad and it was transferred to their children?

Boomark:

Sir, can i also say that the conscience was what Adam and eve made use of when they knew good and bad and it was transferred to their children?

Yes, something changed after the fall. An old dispensation of innocence ended and a new dispensation of conscience started.sir

DrummaBoy: As much as I agree with shdemidemi on the gospel of grace I do not share his views that healing has ceased with the apostles

I however consider it a minor point of doctrine which can be accommodated

What I cannot accommodate is neo-Judaism

I respect your position, but the bible proves me right, time and time again. If you can open with me to letter to Timothy.
1 tim 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The devil have infiltrated the church, we now bring all sort of doctrine that divert us from the gospel of Christ to the doctrine of devil. Example of such doctrine are miracle, marriage, prosperity, e.t.c. The man told his 'son' to point out these doctrine of devil and stick to what he had taught him.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Notice, in verse 13 he did not tell him to be claiming anything,he says study and exhort the doctrine. Check the full story, there is nothing like miracle or any of such. If you don't study correctly your depth is shallow and you can be easily moved by the wind of any doctrine.

Notice Timothy never said any spirit spoke to him, he was commanded by Paul to carry out the same doctrine he has been taught. When people say spirit is speaking to them asides the word written in the scripture, it must be a seducing spirit from the devil.

shdemidemi:

I respect your position, but the bible proves me right, time and time again. If you can open with me to letter to Timothy.
1 tim 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The devil have infiltrated the church, we now bring all sort of doctrine that divert us from the gospel of Christ to the doctrine of devil. Example of such doctrine are miracle, marriage, prosperity, e.t.c. The man told his 'son' to point out these doctrine of devil and stick to what he had taught him.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Notice, in verse 13 he did not tell him to be claiming anything,he says study and exhort the doctrine. Check the full story, there is nothing like miracle or any of such. If you don't study correctly your depth is shallow and you can be easily moved by the wind of any doctrine.

What is wrong with marriage and miracles ? Miracles still happen, albeit you may never hear of the real ones that take place , because they are not announced to the world or used for show.

What does this mean :

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;they will speak in new tongues;they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." - Mark 16:18

There is a big different between prosperity that comes from hard work and the false doctrine of prosperity ? If some Christians do not prosper with their skills , how can they help their poorer less skilled counterparts ?

Let's use wisdom here please.

frosbel:

What is wrong with marriage and miracles ? Miracles still happen, albeit you may never hear of the real ones that take place , because they are not announced to the world or used for show.

What does this mean :

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;they will speak in new tongues;they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." - Mark 16:18

There is a big different between prosperity that comes from hard work and the false doctrine of prosperity ? If some Christians do not prosper with their skills , how can they help their poorer less skilled counterparts ?

Let's use wisdom here please.

I charge you to go read 1 Corinthian 13 properly. If these gifts were still present,God won't keep it as a private thing. Rather it will be in the open and the formula as stated in your quote will work every time. Without prejudice, look at the quote, it says those who believe. Therefore, if we put 20 believers together, at least 1 should be able to do these things. I have never seen miracles life and am not talking about trivial things or somebody saying God has replaced intestine and not Tb Joshua .


See if anyone has that power, he should just come to london hospital to heal all the people there, he will surely be on CNN tomorrow. Lets be careful of seducing spirit. God can do anything, even more than miracle but no man has that power to perform any miracle at his call.

^^^ Man, quit being ridiculous. Did Jesus or Peter or Paul heal everybody in the hospital in their city? You've finally revealed the truth about yourself. Yours is a powerless christianity without miracles to confirm the Word. Paul made it clear that was not the type of gospel he was preaching. His was a gospel evidenced by power - a demonstration of spirit and power. Yours is talk, talk and more talk. How sad.

shdemidemi:

I respect your position, but the bible proves me right, time and time again. If you can open with me to letter to Timothy.
1 tim 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The devil have infiltrated the church, we now bring all sort of doctrine that divert us from the gospel of Christ to the doctrine of devil. Example of such doctrine are miracle, marriage, prosperity, e.t.c. The man told his 'son' to point out these doctrine of devil and stick to what he had taught him.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Notice, in verse 13 he did not tell him to be claiming anything,he says study and exhort the doctrine. Check the full story, there is nothing like miracle or any of such. If you don't study correctly your depth is shallow and you can be easily moved by the wind of any doctrine.

Notice Timothy never said any spirit spoke to him, he was commanded by Paul to carry out the same doctrine he has been taught. When people say spirit is speaking to them asides the word written in the scripture, it must be a seducing spirit from the devil.

Lord, are you for real, my brother! So, Paul tells Timothy to watch out for seducing spirits. And you conclude that's about miracles and marriage? For goodness sake, I hope you're not a pastor, feeding the flock this garbage.

shdemidemi:

Yes, something changed after the fall. An old dispensation of innocence ended and a new dispensation of conscience started.sir

Huh?!! No conscience before the Fall? Hohohohahahahahahahahehehehe.....

Ihedinobi:

Huh?!! No conscience before the Fall? Hohohohahahahahahahahehehehe.....

no, it was all innocence. Man was perfect before the fall.

shdemidemi: no, it was all innocence. Man was perfect before the fall.

Hehehehehe.... What perfect person needs a law? Innocence is not the same is perfection, my friend.

nlMediator:

Lord, are you for real, my brother! So, Paul tells Timothy to watch out for seducing spirits. And you conclude that's about miracles and marriage? For goodness sake, I hope you're not a pastor, feeding the flock this garbage.

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach[b] no other doctrine[/b], 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

He said follow what I have taught you, it will be a total error if Timothy wakes up one day and says he got a new revelation. He kept on telling the boy, don't let anyone teach anything else.

2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The man even spoke against the doctrine of don't marry so you can be holy and starve so you can have more spiritual power. As strange as what I am saying is, it is right there in the scriptures. People just chose to neglect the truth.

Ihedinobi:

Hehehehehe.... What perfect person needs a law? Innocence is not the same is perfection, my friends=.

They didn't have a law my friend. God made man perfect.

shdemidemi:

They didn't have a law my friend. God made man perfect.

They didn't? What about God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? There were others but that one is best known so what about it?

About making Adam perfect, where does the Bible say so?

@shdemidemi

When you have time you may discuss your theology exclusively on a new thread

When U reveal your stands haphazardly on other threads it can be difficult to follow you.

Follow the style of Ihedinobi who took time to explain his position on that thread 'Grace came with Jesus...'

For now the debate is to still how to stop the mouth of these neo-Judaizers; a job I think you doing very well.

shdemidemi:

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach[b] no other doctrine[/b], 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

He said follow what I have taught you, it will be a total error if Timothy wakes up one day and says he got a new revelation. He kept on telling the boy, don't let anyone teach anything else.

2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The man even spoke against the doctrine of don't marry so you can be holy and[b] starve so you can have more spiritual power.[/b] As strange as what I am saying is, it is right there in the scriptures. People just chose to neglect the truth.

where is the bolded written. This is called reasoning from through scripture.

Boomark:

where is the bolded written. This is called reasoning from through scripture.

1 Timothy 4 and 1

DrummaBoy: @shdemidemi

When you have time you may discuss your theology exclusively on a new thread

When U reveal your stands haphazardly on other threads it can be difficult to follow you.

Follow the style of Ihedinobi who took time to explain his position on that thread 'Grace came with Jesus...'

For now the debate is to still how to stop the mouth of these neo-Judaizers; a job I think you doing very well.

I believe I have few threads that state my position clearly.. I am a dispensationalist,if there is any word as such. What that means is learning the scripture based on dispensations.(A dispensation is a period of time during which God deals with the human race in a particular way).

As for neo-judaizers, it will shock you that Paul had the same problem with Peter, James, John cos they could not just stop mixing the gospel of Christ with their Jewish traditions. They wanted gentiles to stop eating certain things and get circumcised to be accepted as part of the fold. Paul stood against anything of such cos it should be all about Jesus and no additional rituals.

Paul suffered so much to minister to the church but people till date still add rituals/judaism to the gospel of Christ.

Ihedinobi:

They didn't? What about God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? There were others [/b]but that one is best known so what about it?

Not true..They were given one and only one instruction at this time. He told them to keep the garden because He knows an intruder(the devil) would come, the same way he came to entice Christ. (Against what christians do by binding devil and all that, the only power we have as christians is to resist him like Christ did).
Genesis 2:15
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to [b]keep it.

God said to Adam to keep the garden because of this intruder/satan. The only way he could have kept it was to avoid the fruit God had said they should not eat from. It was more of God's truth against devil's lie but man fell to the devil.

Ihedinobi:
About making Adam perfect, where does the Bible say so?

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

They were made in a perfect(God's) image

shdemidemi:

Not true..They were given one and only one instruction at this time. He told them to keep the garden because He knows an intruder(the devil) would come, the same way he came to entice Christ. (Against what christians do by binding devil and all that, the only power we have as christians is to resist him like Christ did).
Genesis 2:15
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

God said to Adam to keep the garden because of this intruder/satan. The only way he would keep it is by avoiding the fruit God had said they should not eat from. It was more of God's truth against devil's lie but man fell to the devil.

Lol. What is not true? That there were more commands? Of course there were but no need to squabble over that, the simple issue here is that God gave at least one law to Adam. That means that you were wrong.

And, er, you don't need to give laws to perfect people.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

They were made in a perfect(God's) image

Uh huh. I actually wondered if you knew what the Scriptures said about it. You don't...once again

If they were perfect, they wouldn't have sinned. They were created upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29). That is, man was made with a "normal" of good, but that normal was only with respect to God's intent and purpose. Adam had the choice by the law that God gave to him in the Garden to follow that normal and become it or stray from it. We know that he strayed from it and became abnormal, that is, less than normal.

Perfect is what Jesus was declared to be after being tested in all forms. Nothing can be perfect or imperfect until it has been tested. That is why Adam cannot be said to have been perfect or imperfect before he was tested with the instruction in the Garden. And we know that he failed the test.

Ihedinobi:

Lol. What is not true? That there were more commands? Of course there were but no need to squabble over that, the simple issue here is that God gave at least one law to Adam. That means that you were wrong.
Uh huh. I actually wondered if you knew what the Scriptures said about it. You don't...once again
If they were perfect, they wouldn't have sinned. They were created upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29). That is, man was made with a "normal" of good, but that normal was only with respect to God's intent and purpose. Adam had the choice by the law that God gave to him in the Garden to follow that normal and become it or stray from it. We know that he strayed from it and became abnormal, that is, less than normal.
Perfect is what Jesus was declared to be after being tested in all forms. Nothing can be perfect or imperfect until it has been tested. That is why Adam cannot be said to have been perfect or imperfect before he was tested with the instruction in the Garden. And we know that he failed the test.

You like going round circles...Image, did you see image? Were they God? No, but they were made in that image of perfection. Think deep please, arguing for the sake of it is not edifying.

The instructions given to Adam is different from the laws Paul says we are dead to. The instruction was to a man that had no nature of sin but died spiritually after the transgression, the law on the other hand is to sinners, men that are dead in the spirit.

shdemidemi:
You like going round circles...Image, did you see image? Were they God? No, but they were made in that image of perfection. Think deep please, arguing for the sake of it is not edifying.

Lol. You think I'm arguing for the sake of arguing? Acts 18:26.

I jave not said that they weren't made in the image of perfection, have I? Now try and reread my post and see what I said.

The instructions given to Adam is different from the laws Paul says we are dead to. The instruction was to a man that had no nature of sin but died spiritually after the transgression, the law on the other hand is to sinners, men that are dead in the spirit.

Lol. Different, maybe, but we will come to that. The question here is whether or not God gave any law at all to Adam. Did He or did He not? What say you having seen what I have said so far?

Ihedinobi:

Lol. You think I'm arguing for the sake of arguing? Acts 18:26.
I jave not said that they weren't made in the image of perfection, have I? Now try and reread my post and see what I said.
Lol. Different, maybe, but we will come to that. The question here is whether or not God gave any law at all to Adam. Did He or did He not? What say you having seen what I have said so far?

Have it in hind sight that all that happened in the garden was the will of God. This is all God's cosmic drama, he put the tree in the middle of that garden because the devil would think it for evil but He would be playing out God's plan. God didn't want to make Adam a robot. Adam had a volition even as he was perfect to remain within God's domain. It was not a law like the law of Moses but an instruction.

shdemidemi:
Have it in hind sight that all that happened in the garden was the will of God. This is all God's cosmic drama, he put the tree in the middle of that garden because the devil would think it for evil but He would be playing out God's plan. God didn't want to make Adam a robot. Adam had a volition even as he was perfect to remain within God's domain. It was not a law like the law of Moses but an instruction.

Lol. So the Law of Moses was not an instruction? My friend, you are quite careless with the Scriptures, in fact, you're rather disrespectful of them when you speak.

Laws are instructions which one may disregard and face consequences or uphold and gain reward. So, there was Law even before the Fall.

And as I have already told you, perfect people do not require laws of any sort, they always do the right thing characteristically. So Adam was not created perfect.

Now, I ask you again: what was the Law of Moses?

Ihedinobi:

Lol. So the Law of Moses was not an instruction? My friend, you are quite careless with the Scriptures, in fact, you're rather disrespectful of them when you speak.

Laws are instructions which one may disregard and face consequences or uphold and gain reward. So, there was Law even before the Fall.
And as I have already told you, perfect people do not require laws of any sort, they always do the right thing characteristically. So Adam was not created perfect.
Now, I ask you again: what was the Law of Moses?

See, there are admonitions even among angels and in heaven, the instruction or the law as you would like to put it given to Adam does not make them less perfect. Jesus was tempted by satan the same way Adam was tempted, Jesus was under a law of Moses as well, does that make him less perfect.

This has to be the most unreasonable scriptural argument ever. I can't believe I am still explaining this.

Ihedinobi:
My friend, you are quite careless with the Scriptures, in fact, you're rather disrespectful of them when you speak.

what sort of statement is this? When I say most things, you especially, ask for scriptural reference. I give it to you and you have not been able to fault it.
Renew your mind and stop this unnecessary argument cos I see nothing edifying in this your argument. All I can see is pride from someone trying so hard to win an argument at all cost.

shdemidemi:

See, there are admonitions even among angels and in heaven, the instruction or the law as you would like to put it given to Adam does not make them less perfect. Jesus was tempted by satan the same way Adam was tempted, Jesus was under a law of Moses as well, does that make him less perfect.

This has to be the most unreasonable scriptural argument ever. I can't believe I am still explaining this.

Don't believe it, bro, 'cos it ain't true You see, you haven't even begun to explain at all.

Now, regardless what I actually believe, do you know for a fact that there are "admonitions among angels"?

Next, what is your problem, my friend? Are you deliberately mixing up perfection with the question of when the Law came into existence?

If you want me to concede that Adam was perfect so that you can answer the question I asked about the origins of the Law, I'll make you a deal. Leave the question of perfection alone for now and I promise that we'll shortly come back to it so that you can pour out the wonderful, hidden revelations that you and the "select few" have come to possess.

Tell me very simply: do you yet recognize that you were wrong in insisting that there was no law before Moses? If you don't, then how was God's command to Adam concerning the Tree in the middle of the Garden not the Law? And how did Cain do wrong in killing his brother? What was the sin that God was speaking of to him before he murdered his brother?

Ihedinobi:

Don't believe it, bro, 'cos it ain't true You see, you haven't even begun to explain at all.

Now, regardless what I actually believe, do you know for a fact that there are "admonitions among angels"?

Next, what is your problem, my friend? Are you deliberately mixing up perfection with the question of when the Law came into existence?

If you want me to concede that Adam was perfect so that you can answer the question I asked about the origins of the Law, I'll make you a deal. Leave the question of perfection alone for now and I promise that we'll shortly come back to it so that you can pour out the wonderful, hidden revelations that you and the "select few" have come to possess.

Tell me very simply: do you yet recognize that you were wrong in insisting that there was no law before Moses? If you don't, then how was God's command to Adam concerning the Tree in the middle of the Garden not the Law? And what did Cain do wrong?

Have i not said this before, when the scripture mention law, It means the law of Moses. What happened before the law of Moses is not regarded as a law but as an instruction, SIMPLE

shdemidemi:
Have i not said this before, when the scripture mention law, It means the law of Moses. What happen before the law of Moses is not regarded as a law but as an instruction, SIMPLE

Lol. I think you're tired. Perhaps you should rest awhile before you take a little time to think and figure out the difference between God's commands (I'm sure you know that's what He called the "instruction(s)" in the Garden) and the Law.

Ihedinobi:

Lol. I think you're tired. Perhaps you should rest awhile before you take a little time to think and figure out the difference between God's commands (I'm sure you know that's what He called the "instruction(s)" in the Garden) and the Law.

How does that change my last statement. Anywhere you see the 'law' in the new testament, it is not referring to this command you are talking about but it is simply referring to the law of Moses.

shdemidemi:

How does that change my last statement. Anywhere you see the 'law' in the new testament, it is not referring to this command you are talking about but it is simply referring to the law of Moses.

What then is the Law of Moses?