Pastor Kun: Acts 15:5-11



5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by [b]putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?[/b] 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Bidam:

Acts 21:21-26 -And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [b]save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them [/b]entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Pastor Kun: ^^^
Story!!!

DrummaBoy: Is there any further proof that Bidam and MostHigh are Judaizers, than this thread?

I will answer ur question when power is restored here.

obadiah777: what is a judaizer ?

MostHigh:

Derogatory term.

A Slur word

Used for those that uphold the efficacy of the law

It is nowhere found in scripture

The council of Laodicea states in cannon 29:


Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Why did the members of a Heathen council consider Saturday worship a sin and even worthy of such punishment? Why were Saturday worshipers on the same level as heretics and enemies of the professed earthly church?

Also, why would the professed earthly church state something that is in direct contrast with the ten commandments? Calling the Sabbath rest Judaizing is one thing, but then it says to do it on Sunday.


8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


Dan 7:25 And he [the little horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

obadiah777: very poignant and apt post sire especially the daniel 7 vs 25 reference. i believe i can add one more reference verse >>>>>

revelation 20 v 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,

DrummaBoy: @MostHigh
You raised two questions and I will endeavor to answer them accordingly. :
1. Can you tell me why you are quoting Paul’s words and only Paul’s words to fight against Yashua and NOT DOING AS PAUL DID?
2. And even after you have seen Paul as a JUDAIZER, as you put it, why are you still raging and imagining vain things?
I will answer your question under two topics: Dispensation and Paul was not a Judaizer. I have learnt on nairaland.com that rather than answer questions piecemeal, it would do one’s readers great good to do a thorough job at answering questions so as to silence any gainsayer that may arise and to make one’s position to be as clear as the noon day. So please endure the essay below in answering MostHigh prodding:

Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16).

From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a Jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught.

Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26).

The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it.

But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so, (1 Corinthians 15:10).
The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14.

This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church.
The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians:

[b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9
2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21.
3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3
4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14
5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24
6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9
7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1
8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14
10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are not obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23[/b]

An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.

My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry.

Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel.
In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood:

Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbathdays: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds.

In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretiansarealway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time.

DrummaBoy: Answer to question 1:

DISPENSATIONS






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I will not be treating dispensations in an exhaustive manner (my readers may refer to Google or other authorities on dispensation for better understanding on that doctrine) but simply to answer your query of why folks like us who preach a gospel of grace always quote Paul. It is simple. Jesus the Son of God had a purpose in coming to the earth, this purpose was to save man from his sins (Matthew 1:21)

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To achieve this people he was brought to life through a woman and born to the lineage of David so as to fulfill the prophesy that he was to be called the Son of David. Born in the lineage of David made him a Jew in every aspect. This mission of saving man from his sin was to be fulfilled in two manners: 1. The one to save humanity must obey perfectly the good laws a righteous God had given His people. A law that the people never could keep. Jesus kept this law perfectly and fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law. That is why he could say he never came to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus was born under the law and kept the law perfectly. 2. Those who will enjoy what Christ has done can only do so by be faith – an extension of God’s grace.

@ MOSTHIGH You are spot on here regarding the LIFE and WALK of the master, and I thank you for the reference to math 5 where he states the bolded in your response

Now to reveal the bolded in the true context one must read math 5:18-19 as well, and it reads

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, [b]till all be fulfilled.
[/b]

And we all know tha ALL has not been fullfilled from the world we live in today.


19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Verse 19 reveals the full penalty for the actions of Goshen, Shidedemi and drummaboy for they teach men to speak against the LAW and PROPHETS


Bible teachers call the period Jesus lived on earth in the flesh the Christocentric dispensation. This is if we divide the whole of time to three dispensations: the theocentric, the Christocentric and the eschatological dispensations. Under the Theocentric dispensation we have the age of the gentiles (the time of Abraham and his calling out to follow God) and the age of Isreal (mainly the time of Moses and afterwards); the Christocentric dispensation has the Hypostatic Union (the time Jesus lived in the flesh) and the Church age (from the moment of Christ ascension until the catching away of the church); the eschatological dispensation will include the time of tribulation and the Millennium. We are in the church age presently.

@ MOSTHIGH Even if we are to agree with your dispensationalism it in no way negates the actions of the master who is our chief model our GLORY.

Under the Christocentric dispensation, we have Jesus’ coming and the purpose of his coming: this period is termed the Hypostatic Union and it has the unique characteristic of being the only time in all dispensations that law and grace came into union. This was necessary so that Jesus could fulfill the law perfectly in one hand and grant the benefit of this fulfillment to men (you and me) in the church age who will come to Him by faith. Thus the scripture concludes that the law was given through Moses but grace and truth came with Jesus Christ (John 1: 17). The grace of God through Jesus is then extended to those of us in the church age. So there is no need for us to follow and keep the law anymore since it has been fulfilled in Christ; we only appropriate this fulfillment by faith in Him.

@ MOSTHIGH Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: that is my respone to the bolded.

Now you know where you stand The master says to label you and your kind the LEAST.

We of the way are of the firm belif in the miaphystic union one person one character made up of two characters unmixed and undivided

Any other definition is plain magic and sorcery, hope you are aware this is the reason why the east and west are divided today, it is because of thier christology or simply put thier definition of the nature of christ



Because Jesus lived in the time of the law and was to bring grace to the church, he could not preach the gospel of grace as revealed to Paul or it will nullify his purpose of coming to earth: to fulfill the law. So Jesus words are scripture and Paul encourages us to allow Christ words to dwell in our hearts richly (Colosians 3:16) but Jesus words must be seen in the context of which they were stated and thus the need for sound bible teachers to rightly divide the word of God, keeping to the truth of Scripture. The Christian is not again held bound by the law Jesus operated under and which he came to fulfill.


@ MOSTHIGH Now you are being ignorant and blasphemous. You are also expressing you VAIN opinions regarding the master and GRACE..

Who in scripture is more graciouse than yashua Ibn Joseph?

The sermon on the mount is liberating.

I say liberating because here we have God in flesh schooling all who read the book about the coming kingdom and its constitution. Throughout the sermon one can see that the master openly reveals to all true desciples that the offence has been tramnsferd from the OVERT ACT to the INTENTION

POINT TO NOTE IS THAT THERE IS STILL AN OFFENCE BUT now it is the intention that is important

Also

Your conviction that the Christian is not again held bound by the law Jesus operated under and which he came to fulfill is very wrong and misleading, his very words were carry your cross and follow me.

Now how do you expect to achieve that drummaboy? seeing you rage against math 5:18-19?


Paul the apostle was chosen by God to be the harbinger of this unique gospel of grace. He made it clear in Galatians that this gospel was his gospel revealed to him by God and there was to be no other. This gospel is the message the church in the church age was to be built upon and it is no mere accident that Paul’s writing constitutes two-third of the New Testament: God providentially orchestrated this.

@ MOSTHIGH The bolded is a complete fantasy and a product of projection and classic mind controll techniques

Paul has no GOSPEL OF HIMSELF you make him sound narcissistic when you say such things.

THE GOSPEL IS OF YASHUA

You are talking about what the church is being built upon

So what about the kingdom what is the constitution of the kingdom of heave?



So any sound Bible scholar must understand Paul; must preach Paul; all under the auspices of the Holy Spirit and ofcourse subject to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Paul in 1 Corinthinas 12 said that no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God; he was not just talking about mouthing such talk - anyone can do that. He was saying no one can preach Jesus the way he is doing it except the Spirit of God gives such a man utterance. That is the reason why I cannot be quoting Paul and be accused of fighting against Christ. The two are not congruent because there is no single passage in all of Paul’s epistle were he disparaged Christ. He exalted Jesus to the end and so do we.

@ MOSTHIGH In other words Christ time don pass now na paul get the full revelation



The reason why we quote Paul is because Paul had the message for the church age. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles like us and whatever he had to say was relevant to us. It makes sense to us state succinctly that if we preach and quote Paul, then we also do what Paul did. Thus leading me to answer the next question: Paul did not live subject to the law; Paul was not a Judaizer.

Pastor Kun: ^^^
@Drummaboy
You sef suppose write book oh!

Pastor Kun: Acts 15:5-11



5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

MostHigh: This post is addressed to Goshen Shidedemi and drummaboy.

I will make it short and simple.

You have all been quite evasive over the issue of paul observing all jewish traditions and cultures as witnessed by scripture

Not one of you have been able to defent your position when asked this question

Shidedemi tried by propsing the vows taken by paul were from a different lifetime and that after his conversion he was compelled to complete it.

I have kindly shown him his errors by stating acts 18:18 happend after his conversion.

My question is..

1. Can you tell me why you are quoting pauls words and only pauls words to fight against yashua AND NOT DOING AS PAUL DID?

2. And even after you have seen paul as a JUDAIZER as you put it why are you still raging and imagining a vain thing?

AWAITING RESPONSES

JesusisLord85:

If I had a £ for each time I saw this passage misquoted, I would be a multi millionaire. Remove that 'Pastor' from your name

Pastor Kun:

Olodo why don't you then quote it properly if you think you know better.

Pastor Kun:

Olodo why don't you then quote it properly if you think you know better.

JesusisLord85:

verse 11 shows you the context:

" No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

They were saying you must observe the law FIRST in order to be saved. It takes a year or more to fully convert to Judaism. Thse guys wanted them to pass through the usual rights, but now, through Christ, you are saved by faith and are a convert {to the religion of the Jews if you will, NOT some new religion called Christianity}. Notice what else James says:

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

In other words, let them come to the faith. They will learn the rest (the law) as they attend synagogue every sabbath day.

You see. Judaizers all the way. Stop reading bible back to front.

DrummaBoy: @ Kun

Wetin person go do now. Lol!!!

I had to write all that to help this MostHigh chap but if after now he doesn't change. I leave him to himself

Pastor Kun: