benalvino:

a trailer = car does not make a trailer an SUV
Both are called car but they are different kind of cars... if angel = messenger is your reason to put messenger there instead of angel... I want you to tell me how to know if hebrew is in reference to humans or the angels the question still comes

when the passage says messenger, what is it talking about as you say it is the correct translation
1: spirit like Gabriel
2: humans like elijah
3: pigeon

if he can answer this question then we can go on...

the funny thing is that he likes picking bible that has the wrong translation... the other 2 bibles that translate Malachi as angel that he claimed to be the most accurate because it thought they are older than King james didnt translate this passage as messenger... suddenly those are not accurate again but this YLT version which is the only bible that puts messenger there...

you people just like to look for wrong things that makes you guys look like you really have an argument...

The Question Which of the messenger is this YLT version talking about... the Host in Heaven? or the humans on earth?

oga truthislight can you answer this... please give me a direct answer.

BERNIMOORE:

we are still discussing in the old testament, christ pre human identity. he wasnt call 'jesus christ' in the whole OT.

[size=14pt]you are the one that just mentioned micheal now,to confuse y'self, not me! jesus christ was not mentioned too,in the whole old testament, so leave micheal out of this,and stop blabbing [/size]


diversion, you jump like toad,far more than frog i dont swallow your concortions



so you hate 'become'





jesus was a messenger in heaven!



[size=14pt]maybe until you tell us where thename 'jesus christ' his most popular name, was ever mentioned in old testament in during all his pre human activity, during the time he was BEFORE ABRAHAM, then i will just rest my case, answer now [/size]


really? yhwh indeed

messenger 'word'

benalvino:

Resting your case without answering the question...

since Jesus name was not mentioned why you say him be angel?

i have seen it and you did not make sense...

Malachi you quote john the baptist have earthly parents mother and father, therefore he is a messenger like elijah not like angel gabriel.
Jesus is also a messenger like elijah and not like Gabriel... he wasnt a spirit when he started his ministries on earth...
the messenger Yahweh says he will Send is John

"I will send my messenger[john the baptist], who will prepare the way before me[YHWH]. Then suddenly the Lord[jesus] you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger[jesus] of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty

The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD[YHWH]; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Isa. 40:3).

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: 'A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him'" (Mt. 3:1-3).

According to Matthew, the prophet Isaiah wrote about John the Baptist, who was to prepare the way for the Lord, or as Isaiah wrote the LORD (YHWH). Yet, it was John who prepared the way for Jesus:
The bible says God manifest in the flesh, it says the word became flesh...

I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Mt. 3:11).

John prepared the way for Jesus, according to Matthew, but Isaiah says John, who he called the voice, prepared the way for YHWH!

let me explain again

“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.

Behold, I send My messenger: This prophesied[b] messenger[/b] is none other than John the Baptist. Matthew 11:10, Mark 1:2, and Luke 7:27 each apply this promise to John the Baptist.

At the end of Malachi 2, Israel complained that God seemed to reward the wicked and did not exercise His justice in the world. God responds to their complaint by saying, “I will set things right with My Messiah, and before Him will come My messenger.”

And he will prepare the way before Me: In an ancient royal procession the messenger went before the King to announce his arrival, to indicate the route, and to remove any obstacles in the road. John the Baptist fulfilled this exact ministry for Jesus. The same idea is indicated in Isaiah 40:3-5.

God’s purpose for bringing this specific prophecy through Malachi in his day was probably because Israel complained that the Messianic promises of Haggai and Zechariah were not fulfilled. Here Malachi shows that the way for the Messiah must be prepared, and they aren’t ready yet.

Before Me: The Lord promises that He Himself will come - not merely a new or better prophet, but the Lord Himself.

Even the Messenger of the covenant: [size=18pt]This second messenger is the Lord Himself - Jesus [/size]coming to His temple as the fulfillment of the old covenant and [size=18pt]to institute a new[/size] covenant.
[/size]

Joagbaje:

The word means "minister " or messenger . So a christian minister who serves is an angel in this sense . It also means pastor .


Revelation 2:12
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; . . . KJV

Revelation 2:12
"Write this letter to the leader of the church in Pergamos:. . .. LNT

[size=18pt]So we have the human angels by the virtue of their ministerial office and we have spiritual beings called angels who are spiritual servants
[/size]
Galatians 4:14
. .. but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

benalvino: You still dont have say... we are all angels... even the pigeon. the dogs are all messenger... so whats your argument?

go back to 2(#g) you will get the answer there

BERNIMOORE: go back to 2(#g) you will get the answer there

benalvino: You still dont have say... we are all angels... even the pigeon. the dogs are all messenger... so whats your argument?

BERNIMOORE:

you have to recognise and respect the fact that you are discussing a religious matter here. and so,

bible 'messenger' is different from 'any messenger'

pigeon and dogs were NOT used or refer anywhere as messenger, if you come across any in the bible, bring it up, and let us see 'aggelloss' or 'malawk' used for the animals.


Note;

that 'bible messenger' are those whose task is to declare good news of Gospel, different from 'other messengers' sent on errands not connected to the Gospel

this is what i mean, i can provide you easily with a verse where human like you john was refered as 'my messenger' using aggellos which falls within 'bible messenger' and not 'any messenger'

Matthew 11:10
10 This is he of whom it is written,
q“ ‘Behold, I send my messenger'(aggellos)' before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’

i can further provide you with a bible verse USING KING JAMES VERSION 1611, where paul use angel for himself without fear inanywaywhatsoever and there was no opposition from his hearers, he even paralleled the usage of angel 'aggellos' to jesus christ himself;

Galatians 4:14 kjv
'but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus'.

now, your assignment is;


provide us anywhere in the bible where 'messenger' was used for, animals.first, i need direct use of 'messenger' by animal in the bible, NOW

im waiting, dont tell us that you have pass there, your usual way of evading questions

im happy that people can really discern from this thread that the only problem you have is YOU. and your case can be likened to when someone is trying to fill a basket with water, it will never be filled.

BERNIMOORE: and IF YOU FAIL TO BRING THEM ON, then you have to automatically accept the extent of those included as the bible 'messenger' which is different from 'any messenger' pigeon and dogs were NOT used,

so we cannot question Why God does not inspire his scripture writers to include animals as 'messenger' in bible's own aggellos[/b]you either accept that or remain annoyed for that exclusion.

Animals are categorised with humans in my post [b]2(#g)above





Animals belong to the nature in (1) above, to the extent that they share the phisical nature of humans,AND they 'breathe' air/ which is 'invisible' and depend on breathing the invicible 'air' to suvive,

no wonder the book of righly says this

[size=12pt][color=#000099]Ecclesiastes 3:18-21

"sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
but then, animals were not listed or enjoy the benefit of being listed amomg 'bible messengers'

conclusion on why dogs and pigeons are not listed amomg 'bible messengers'

it is simply because the 'bible messengers' are those whose task is to declare good news of Gospel, different from 'other messengers' sent on errands not connected to the Gospel

can you question God about the scriptures omission of animals in their defination? if even if you do, it amounts to nothing and irrelevant striving after winds lets go now!

benalvino:

Simply illogical...

So tell me How is the word messenger applied to Men and animals different?

BERNIMOORE: Philippians 2:7

but made himself nothing, [size=18pt]taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.[/size]

JESUS AS A MAN,(note the change in natures) Now TOOK A PHISICAL FORM IN (1)below (from (2(#g)[/b]above

[b]The two distinct categories of forms which falls under the (later usage) blanket name of 'spirit'

1, phisical beign/form/nature;human/animals= they breath air, and so the air/wind/breeze they breath sustains their body,keep it alive.
2, supernatural beigns/form/nature; God,angels,word,satan/demons= who are resides in air,breeze/wind and invisible

no wonder hebrew 2:9


King James Bible
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels [/b]for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.



statements below compared;

[b]''took the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men''.phil 2:7

"who was made a little lower than the angels" hebrews 2:9

agrees with (1) above 1, phisical beign/form/nature;human/animals= they breath air, and so the air/wind/breeze they breath sustains their body,keep it alive.

so, if jesus was lower than the angels during all his eathly course then he cant be equal 'at the same time with the father'

2(#G)

since the english word spirit was originally derived from latin word 'spiritus'=breath equivalent with the greek word pneo,which is the root to pne.uma which also corresponds with hebrew ruach,while neshama(inspiration) was opposite of ruach see 2(#f)

then we can establish two distinct categories of forms which falls under the (later usage) blanket name of spirit,note that spirit is used by the english translators later to be a blanket accomodating all various kinds of persons(supernatural/phisical human/animal)
just the way the word 'Lord' could accomodate different
things;God,jesus,court judges,husbands etc. however it is very easy for TRINITARIANS TO TURN YOU AROUND HIDDING UNDER THE BLANKET NAME 'LORD' but by sticking to the root derivative will keep argument in focus. because they are confused people on their own, so they want people to be like them, hence they attack anyone who has the got to explain into details by mischieviously forcing the argument back to the same point 'lord' so that anything can be lord even a he goat will be 'lord' to a she goat, grin grin grin thats trinitarians for

1, phisical beign/form/nature;human/animals= they breath air, and so the air/wind/breeze they breath sustains their body,keep it alive.
2, supernatural beigns/form/nature; God,angels,word,satan/demons= who are resides in air,breeze/wind and invisible

the difference in 1, and 2, above is that

a, (one) relied on a portion of (two) to sustain its phisical body,

b, (two) does not need any portion of (one) to sustains his supernatural form

so, 2 is independent on 1, but 1 is dependent on 2.

benalvino:

[size=18pt]You seem to drag me back all the time... Jesus was not a servant from the get go... Angels are created as servants... Jesus created them all... the bible says he was in the form GOD... angels was in the form SERVANTS...[/size] SOo Jesus Made him Self Servant... This alone has Shown that Jesus Shares same Nature as His father and not the Angels...

I have told you... Humans and animals are physical with flesh... But One is called animals and the other is called Humans... and Guess what... We are not of same nature... But same substance. Simple.

Till you get this into your Head you will keep making ridiculous statements like animals are the sons of men.

benalvino:

you keep saying the above which doesn't make any sense...

Check the hebrew word used for breath... then Check the hebrew word used for spirit... hebrew word for spirit that applies to the angel and God is applied to humans....

You dont seem to want to accept but bring latin words into this... which doesnt add to your argument...
try same with Greek words for breath and spirit...

[Compare Jude 19]:
"Apostates not having the Spirit, ,i.e., they have a human spirit which is dead - not being made alive by God the Holy Spirit. They are therefore spiritually dead."

you said we dont have spirit but we breath spirit or we breath air while angels resides in air or breeze... Human work is to breath in angels who resides in the hair. tell me what the above verse says or what you understand from the bold...

Are you saying the verse is saying we have breath which is dead? does it make sense? can air we breath be dead?

[I Cor 2:14]:
"The natural man, i.e., the unbeliever, who has a dead human spirit, is incapable of receiving the things of the Spirit of God - because they are spiritually discerned."

^^ see the above tell me what you understand? instead of you to be hiding in your baseless latin word explanation.

[Compare Jn 4:23]:
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will[b] worship the Father in spirit and truth[/b], for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."

Worship the father in breath we breath? see how senseless your explaination below is becoming


Jesus told the woman at the well: "They that worship God worship Him in spirit, [their human spirits] and truth" (which is Bible doctrine - God's Word: You cannot worship God except through the learning of the Word of God. A person is born physically alive but with a dead human spirit).

the statement above is out of utter ignorance... We have both physical and spiritual form... you failed try again.

benalvino:

BERNIMOORE you are beginning to go off the cliff... forget confusing your self. when God gave man Breath in Genesis 2:7 was it figurative?
Genesis 2:7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
^^^ hebrew for breath neshamah

The English word spirit (from Latin spiritus "breath"

(נְשָׁמָה nəšâmâh) or nephesh (in Hebrew neshama comes from the root NŠM or "breath"

BERNIMOORE:

Again i have treated the metaphorial usages you are bringing NOW before,Figure of speach, Metonymy: and 'neshama' which wikipedia spoted out as not in the categories, nits funny you said it does not mean sense before to your basket brain but now you are just attepting it, anyway

[size=14pt]see (2#e) and 2(#f) for my definations[/size]

again help your self, here is

[size=18pt]2(#e)[/size]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit



Spirit

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The English word spirit (from Latin spiritus "breath" has many differing meanings and connotations, most of them relating to a non-corporeal substance contrasted with the material body. The word spirit is often used metaphysically to refer to the consciousness or personality.


Etymology

The English word spirit comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning "breath", but also "spirit, soul, courage, vigor", ultimately from a Proto-Indo-European *(s)peis. It is distinguished from Latin anima, "soul" (which nonetheless also derives from an Indo-European root meaning "to breathe", earliest form *h2enh1- [2]). In Greek, this distinction exists between pneuma (πνευμα), "breath, motile air, spirit," and psykhē (ψυχη), "soul"[3] (even though the latter term, ψῡχή = psykhē/psūkhē, is also from an Indo-European root meaning "to breathe": *bhes-, zero grade *bhs- devoicing in proto-Greek to *phs-, resulting in historical-period Greek ps- in psūkhein, "to breathe", whence psūkhē, "spirit", "soul"[4]).
The word "spirit" came into Middle English via Old French. The distinction between soul and spirit also developed in the Abrahamic religions: Arabic nafs (نفس) opposite rúħ (روح); Hebrew neshama (נְשָׁמָה nəšâmâh) or nephesh (in Hebrew neshama comes from the root NŠM or "breath"[size=18pt] opposite ruach (רוּחַ rûaħ).[/size] (Note, however, that in Semitic just as in Indo-European, this dichotomy has not always been as neat historically as it has come to be taken over a long period of development: Both נֶ֫פֶשׁ (root נפשׁ) and רוּחַ (root רוח), as well as cognate words in various Semitic languages, including Arabic, also preserve meanings involving misc. air phenomena: "breath", "wind", and even "odour".[5][6][7])

BERNIMOORE:

LIE! BIG TIME LIE,

OK, YOU CHANGE TO USE OF SERVANT? YOU WILL MEET ME THERE; you are going to be tired of yourself with enough evidence you cant shove aside. here we go;

JESUS WAS GODS SERVANT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN, THIS IS OLD TESTAMENT ISAIAH ACCOUNT TESTIFIES JESUS IN SPIRIT FORM AS A SERVANT. dont think i have only malachi 3:1,

Again you fail to use the bible,

but here is old testament proof;

Isaiah 42:1-6 kjv

42[size=18pt] “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,[/size]
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles
2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 [size=18pt]“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,[/size]

these statements were made to jesus for Gods sake, while in heaven in spirit form when God could have said 'O God the son'

but rather God used my servant,

[size=18pt] “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold...bring forth justice to the Gentiles[/size]

compare this to what the spirit angel said to john when john wanted to show a sign of respect by bowing;

revelation 22:9;

"And he saith unto me, See thou do it not

[size=18pt]I am a fellow-servant with thee[/size] and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God".


if Angel are Gods servant

And God was calling jesus above 'servant' not yet here on EARTH but BUT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN,

what further proof do you want to be convinced that, jesus as Gods servant in heaven RIGHTLY FITS IN YOUR EARLIER SAY THAT ANGELS ARE SERVANTS.

AND IF GOD CALL JESUS 'servant' not yet here on EARTH but still RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN,

it shows that jesus is A SPIRIT SERVANT ANGEL/MESSENGER/SERVANT NOT equal with GOD, Evidence above said it all.



malachi 3:1 'messenger/Angel of covenant' in heaven

isaiah 42:6 'servant and covenant to the gentiles'

i will still not be surprised if you change this topic as usual,NOTE what we are discussing now was that jesus was never GODS SERVANT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN.

OYA CHANGE TOPIC AS USUAL AND DIVERT OYAAAA

BERNIMOORE: [size=14pt]oya answer, jesus is not servant as shown in isaiah 42

maybe you you change to assistant or whatever...dont change topic there ok?called servant in heaven or not[/size] im waiting to laugh at your clinical approach to the question, not only me here, i have few colleagues here in my office im showing your comments on my system, oya!

benalvino:

Its a shame that you are using wikipedia Lmao!

Questions...

When the Bible is talking about Human breath, what does it use?
a: neshamah
b: ruach

let me help you with some verses.
Isaiah 30:33: "the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone,"
Isaiah 42:5: "the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people
Daniel 10:17: "there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left"

^^ the above is for breath... go and check the hebrew word used for breath there...
Numbers 5:14: " And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she"
Numbers 5:14: "and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous"
Numbers 5:30: "Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous"
Numbers 11:17: "thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon"
Numbers 11:25: "unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto"
Numbers 11:25: "the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied,"

you can do the same with The Greek...
instead of you to answer the questions in the post you replied... you left it and post wiki... lol you should answer question directly.

And from your wiki post... the words you make so low says something important that goes against you, so you make it so small...

benalvino:

It is funny How you dont comprehend the bible or english...

3 question...
Did Jesus take the form of a servant? Yes or No....
Did the angels take or had choice to be servant or not? Yes or No....
Before Jesus became servant what form was he? a: a servant, b: God c:Human

After you post all that still phil 2:7 states that Jesus took upon the form of a servant... Now if you like say he took it in Heaven or on Earth! this will not change the fact that he wasn't a servant at first before he took upon the form of a servant... Another fail from you... try again.

For your information the angels are all servant of God... from when they are created to when satan rebel.... the righteous angels are all servants Of God till today.

So i guess you cant counter phil 2:7... It was clear that jesus was not servant when he was in heaven from the very start... Where he became servant heaven or earth doesnt matter anymore because at first he was not servant... He was in the form God... then took upon the form servant... the keep words are in red font. below

[size=18pt]6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.…[/size]

the red font is what you cant deny.

BERNIMOORE:

I SAID IT, you will change the issue, LAUGH LAUGH LAUGH, you throw us into laghter here! english langusge really.

[size=18pt]form [/size]of a bond-servant agrees with (1) in 2(#g)

BERNIMOORE:

LIE! BIG TIME LIE,

OK, YOU CHANGE TO USE OF SERVANT? YOU WILL MEET ME THERE; you are going to be tired of yourself with enough evidence you cant shove aside. here we go;

JESUS WAS GODS SERVANT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN, THIS IS OLD TESTAMENT ISAIAH ACCOUNT TESTIFIES JESUS IN SPIRIT FORM AS A SERVANT. dont think i have only malachi 3:1,

Again you fail to use the bible,

but here is old testament proof;

Isaiah 42:1-6 kjv

42[size=18pt] “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,[/size]
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles
2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 [size=18pt]“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,[/size]

these statements were made to jesus for Gods sake, while in heaven in spirit form when God could have said 'O God the son'

but rather God used my servant,

[size=18pt] “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold...bring forth justice to the Gentiles[/size]

compare this to what the spirit angel said to john when john wanted to show a sign of respect by bowing;

revelation 22:9;

"And he saith unto me, See thou do it not

[size=18pt]I am a fellow-servant with thee[/size] and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God".


if Angel are Gods servant

And God was calling jesus above 'servant' not yet here on EARTH but BUT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN,

what further proof do you want to be convinced that, jesus as Gods servant in heaven RIGHTLY FITS IN YOUR EARLIER SAY THAT ANGELS ARE SERVANTS.

AND IF GOD CALL JESUS 'servant' not yet here on EARTH but still RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN,

it shows that jesus is A SPIRIT SERVANT ANGEL/MESSENGER/SERVANT NOT equal with GOD, Evidence above said it all.



malachi 3:1 'messenger/Angel of covenant' in heaven

isaiah 42:6 'servant and covenant to the gentiles'

i will still not be surprised if you change this topic as usual,NOTE what we are discussing now was that jesus was never GODS SERVANT RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN.

OYA CHANGE TOPIC AS USUAL AND DIVERT OYAAAA