There is no law on earth that makes one person liable for an offense took NO part in.

winnteam:


As for the fine extending to the passengers, I also agree 100%. Why?

Most of the commercial drivers are encouraged by passengers in a "hurry" to drive on the wrong side. Even passengers in a private vehicle will not question the driver of the vehicle when he does such.

Some "big" men sit at the back of their card pretending to be reading while their drivers break laws. It is when the wahala comes that they come down and speak rubbish English when it would only have taken them to just instruct them not to do so.

If I witness a man being murdered how does it make me an accomplice to murder?

If a driver drives against traffic, my opinion as a passenger is irrelevant unless the law can prove that I not only own the car but controlled the driver's decision.

Even if I advised the driver against breaking the law how does this new law protect me if he went against my wish? This law was probably done in a hurry.

Passengers should not be held responsible for a driver's error.

If your driver knocks down a pedestrian should you be held legally responsible for that too?

Have you seen where a driver driving on one-way caused accidents, killing innocent people?

Have you seen where an overspeeding driver killed people, senselessly?

Do you have access to the number of people killed by wrong and careless driving?

How much is 250,000 compared to a human life? Laws are meant to be deterrant.

Not taking that one-way because of avoiding 250,000 fine could save someone's life. Funny enough that person could be you.

@deor03

[size=15pt][center]NO BETTER WAY TO SUMMARIZE THIS MATTER.
THANK YOU![/center][/size]

corruption has not affected us only in monetary terms but also in our activities. Most of our 'calamities' are caused by us.

the truth is that I must pray e'time while driving 'cos both the educated and non-educated have less differences on Lagos roads. Impatience will kill some of 'em. Traffic laws are written for whoever feels like reading 'em. Thank Goodness, there's LASTMA or else, our roads woulda become war zones!

with the way the danfo guys park indiscriminately on an expressway to pick passengers, who would be blamed for that?

deor03:

Have you seen where a driver driving on one-way caused accidents, killing innocent people?

Have you seen where an overspeeding driver killed people, senselessly?

Do you have access to the number of people killed by wrong and careless driving?

How much is 250,000 compared to a human life? Laws are meant to be deterrant.

Not taking that one-way because of avoiding 250,000 fine could save someone's life. Funny enough that person could be you.

Try to read before making posts.

I have not issues with fining drivers.

MY ISSUE IS WITH PUNISHING PASSENGERS

What do you have to say about that?

Mustay:

with the way the danfo guys park indiscriminately on an expressway to pick passengers, who would be blamed for that?

Why are they no laws agains this?

It is obvious this law was made to increase revenue and nothing else.

Nigerians will never see a situation for what it is.

@somze the issue about taxing passengers was already discussed on the first page. It might be obvious to you that the scheme is to generate revenue but to me it isn't. To me it is obvious that the scheme is there do deter people from breaking the law. If you don't want to enrich the state and add to the increase in revenue then it is simple. Don't break the law.

I have reduced the empty logic used in the first page to the rubble it truly is. You may want to see my reply in the first page.

Sky Blue:

Don't break the law.

Perhaps you know so little about the law. Only the driver breaks the law NOT and NEVER the passenger.

You can go through case after case and the results would be the same whether it was driving against traffic, drunk driving or manslaughter charges (knocking down pedestrian). You can check it out for yourself.

To make it elementary enough for you, consider this scenario - A couple of friends are drunk, driving back home from the club. The driver loses control of the vehicle and crashes into another vehicle killing the vehicle's driver instantly. Who will be punished? Or better still how many people will be punished?

In certain circumstances,vicarious liability will apply to make liable the owner of a vehicle for the conduct of a driver using the vehicle for the owner's purposes.

Beyond that,I think its absurd to hold passengers liable for a driver's malfeasance.

The prosecutor still needs to make the case for Vicarious Liability.

I've seen lots of cases where a junior worker was held liable for his actions, even when common sense will point to the fact that those actions may have been influenced by his superior.

This law leaves no room for such. It is more like a military decree - If you do so and so, then pay fine.

There was no bill on this, no evidence that the House of Assembly deliberated on it too.

How can such a law be put into practice when it fails to even meet the standard set by its institution?

@somze instead of patronising and attacking me why not just try and look at things from a Lagos and Nigerian perspective. What do you actually believe the intent of such a law was in the lagos situation? Do you actually believe that one way driving is used to target people who are drunk and driving with passengers? Why do we have to be coy about the situation? One way driving in most cases as reported and seen occurs in broad day light by totally sober people who think they are the only ones who need to get somewhere, by big men who seat in cars and pretend not to see what their drivers are doing and a lot of the time by taxi drivers and bus drivers who want to cut traffic and get ahead at the expence of endangering everyone else while the passengers say nothing as they want to get ahead too as if they are the only ones that need to get somewhere.

I can't believe i had to explain that because i am quite sure you know this so let us not be coy. If you see things differently fine but permit me thesame. You said it was obvious that such a law was there to generate revenue and i said not for me. For me i think it is obvious that the government put such law in place to encourage passengers to hold their drivers more accountable to behave and comply with the laws especially bus and taxi drivers. If passengers were all complaining to the driver and conductor that they should not break the law because they the passengers don't want to be fined would the drivers and conductors not feel extra pressure to comply to paying passengers? Lagos is not New York or Paris, you can't compare the level of blatant daylight and sober disregard for laws to those countries. Have a nice day  

Always learn to read a post and understand it before attempting to click the reply button.

The drunk scenario was an instance to show that passengers can not be held liable for a drivers mistake. It has NOTHING to do with driving against traffic.

I attempt to show that as much as you can not punish passengers in a scenario where their driver has an accident, you can not do the same for passengers in this scenario where the driver is going against traffic. Simple and plain.

Dude the logic is simple - You can not make the passenger liable for the driver's error except of course prosecution can prove Vicarious liability.

Ask a lawyer about the issue.

You assume that the passengers in private cars are most definitely the owners, this assumption is woefully wrong. Let me ask you one thing, have you ever entered someone else's car?

Your "big man" scenario truly does exist, but another scenario exists also like I have shown by that question. If the owner of the car is not the passenger, then the passenger in the car must not be fined. If the owner of the car is the passenger then the State must prove Vicarious Liability. Anything except from this is absurd and wrong.

Shekena

It's easy to sit behind a PC and applaud this move - until you realise you're entrusting the implementation of a draconian law on the Nigerian police - a body that has been known to arrest people for wandering, and keep them locked up for months on end.

Many of you are sitting down in a country where the burden of proof of guilt is on the police and are celebrating the passing of a draconian decree in a country where the burden of proof is on the accused. There are cameras in the US and the UK. there are NONE in nigeria. It's your word against that of a police 'officer'. Guess who's got the short end of the stick?

The whole thing is a sham.

Like I said earlier, this is just a means to reach the N15billion a month revenue, the Governor wants each month.

somze:

Always learn to read a post and understand it before attempting to click the reply button.

You seems to be the only person reading this post before replying or its simply the other way round

a driver is responsible for what decisions he takes.

how many passengers know traffic rules

e'body's impatience influences drivers' decisions.

Passengers should be left outta this

Dis is more than highway robbery and a right fucking rip off!

@somze i think you are just not reading my posts. You used the drunken scenario to try to prove a point that if a drink driver with passengers flouts the law and gets an accident then it is the driver that should be held responsible, i used that same scenario to state what you and i already know that in the Nigerian context flouting of traffic laws is seen as normality up to the extent that far from being discouraged it is actually in most cases just ignored or encouraged by passengers in a car. Whether the passenger owns the car or not is not the issue. You keep on throwing at me how you level of reasoning is such simple logic that if i cannot see it then i must be illogical. That is fine i don't really care if you see me as being illogical but i won't just agree with you on an issue i just can't see from your side with the arguement you have stated. The intent of that law is to encourage people who are not driving (the passengers) to also demand that drivers in vehicles they are in desist from the blatant and fatal stupidity that is one way driving.

If you are in a car or vehicle in which the driver is doing this you have the option of either demanding such stupidity is refrained from (which is the intent of this law) or to tell the driver to stop so you can get out of the car and hence you as a passenger does not become liable. In this context it was so obvious to me that the law was targeted at danfoe and molue and other bus drivers who just cause such a nuissance on Nigerian roads in general. In such context it is obvious that the fine we speak of is put there to encourage passengers of commercial vehicles and non commercial vehicles to demand compliance from their drivers. And please stop using New York or wherever as an example as such places don't see the level of disregard for law as Nigerian roads witness. Drastic situation seems to have understandably invited drastic measures and deterrents from such selfish, toutish, irresponsible and fatal behaviours.
 
I don't know how else to put it. We both read the same law on the first page, you saw red and daylight robbery, i saw a very strong deterrent which might be necessary in order to install order in the road chaos that is in lagos and Nigeria. I am tired of repeating thesame thing over and over again so i won't. With this continued line of arguement you make i don't believe i need to say anything else that i have not already stated in previous posts so take it or leave it. Have a nice day.

Sky Blue:

The intent of that law is to encourage people who are not driving (the passengers) to also demand that drivers in vehicles they are in desist from the blatant and fatal stupidity that is one way driving.

Seriously, except from the military law, what other laws have you been governed under?

How can an unjust fine be used to encourage?

The problem I see here is we are too used to being ruled by military decrees.

In the UK where points are deducted, whose licenses are the points deducted from? Perhaps they should start deducting it from the passengers also, in a bid to encourage them.

@ somze

I guess the issues of including the passangers is because most ' big ' men on Lagos roads are passagers in their cars. They are not just ordinary passangers, they are the ones controlling the innocent drivers.

Laws are supposed to have a feel of the context in which it is being applied. How many people have drivers in UK?

@somze if you must UK as an example, UK where drivers respect traffic laws in comparison with Nigeria, UK where people don't drive against traffic as a norm, i could go on, but if you must use UK as an example whereby a system is put in place to "encourage" people to comply with the law, then why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people not to smoke in public? Why not familiarise yourself with the hefty fines used to "encourage" people not to drink in public designated 'no alcohol' zones? Why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people to abide by railway laws, eg buy tickets? Should i go on? Familiarise yourself with all of that and also use places like Toronto and New York or other places where spitting chewing gum on the floor makes you liable to a fine. So even if such places did not have those laws then you won't see the situation in lagos for what it is? Terrible to say the very least and hence deserving of drastic measures? I think this arguement is getting futile. However i will only advice you on this, when next you want to drive on lagos roads and your driver on either bus or car or taxi or whatever feels like endangering the lives of everyone to get you to skip traffic that everyone else is enduring also, "encourage" such a driver not to, not because we had this arguement and you agreed with me, but because you will if caught get fined!!!  Good Day.

deor03:

@ somze

I guess the issues of including the passangers is because most ' big ' men on Lagos roads are passagers in their cars. They are not just ordinary passangers, they are the ones controlling the innocent drivers.

Laws are supposed to have a feel of the context in which it is being applied. How many people have drivers in UK?

The problem is that the law will also affect "non-big men" who are mere passengers in the car they are in and have no say in the matter.

Sky Blue:

@somze if you must UK as an example, UK were drivers respect traffic laws in comparison with Nigeria, UK were people don't drive against traffic as a norm, i could go on, but if you must use UK as an example whereby a system is put in place to "encourage" people to comply with the law, then why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people not to smoke in public? Why not familiarise yourself with the hefty fines used to "encourage" people not to drink in public designated 'no alcohol' zones? Why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people to abide by railway laws, eg buy tickets? Should i go on? Familiarise yourself with all of that and also use places like Toronto and New York and other places where spitting chewing gum on the floor makes you liable to a fine. So even if such places did not have those laws then you won't see the situation in lagos for what it is? Terrible and hence deserving of drastic measures? I think this arguement is getting futile. However i will only advice you on this, when next you want to drive on lagos roads and your driver on either bus or car or taxi or whatever feels like endangering the lives of everyone to get you to skip traffic that everyone else is enduring also, "encourage" such a driver not to not because we had this arguement and you agreed with me, but because you will if caught get fined!!! Good Day.

All the fines you raised in the UK ONLY affect the offender and NO one else.

I also don't understand how passenger tickets make you abide by railway laws. You may want to explain that one.

In UK, people break Traffic laws like every other place in the world and they are rules to purnish the offender and deter people from engaging in such. These rules are strictly for the offender.

Let's take CCTV for example, if your car is caught breaking a traffic law and points were to be deducted, they would be deducted from you of course. But say you were not the one driving the car at the time and you remember who was driving it, authorities will deduct it from the person not you irrespective of the car ownership.

Lagos new traffic law does not address this case where the passenger has nothing to do with the car or the driver (ownership does not exist). Hence the case of vicarious liability. Why this law even saw the light of day is beyond me. Do we really have lawmakers in Nigeria? What does the house of Assembly, Reps and Senate do?

@somze the whole point of raising railway tickects was the fines a passenger is liable to if they are found without a ticket. You keep saying things like 'people break traffic laws in UK just like any other place in the world'. That right there, i just don't get it. Can you really compare driving in lagos and Nigeria in general to any other normal place on the planet that is not a film set? Even if, which i seriously doubt is possible, does that make it ok? It is horrendous. I think that is where we differ. If a situation is deemed drastic then people will be more willing to accept drastic measures but you don't even see how bad traffic violations really are in Nigeria. You might need to experience it again. I did not mention those laws to use as defence for others been liable, but to cut this whole illusion that these fines are ridiculous or too hefty, since some people won't accept anything unless you say it is also as hefty in "the west".

I keep referring to the intent of the law because that is what i seem to see whereas you see something else. People should take responsibility for their actions and in the case of taxi and bus drivers or even drivers of 'big men', passengers should also take responsibility and be more concerned at the way they reach their destination. It is like people who want to be enviromentally consious that demand that companies whose services they patronise should take more responsibility in doing their bit for the environment. Such a culture of demanding better from people in control in Nigeria (in this case the driver) DOES NOT EXIST. Nigerians don't care as long as they can eat or they might get there faster. It is so shameful. This law is meant to force people to do that, except this case it is to force passengers to tell whoever is driving there vehicle not to be so stupid as to drive one way driving.
Can you imagine? Does that not show or tell you how screwed up things really are that a passenger has to be forced to tell their drivers not to drive on the other side of the road? Just think about that for a second, it goes to show how normal such a phenomenom is and you want to compare this with other places in the world? LOL. You make it seem as if the passenger is liable for every other offence which is not true. The passenger becomes liable for ONE WAY DRIVING only. Drastic? perhaps. But if it is going to force people to do such, if it is going to force people to question and demand an iota of sanity or to patronise people to state the obvious by telling their drivers "please don't drive on the other side of the road so you don't run a child over" (CAN YOU IMAGINE), then i am for it. Get involved.

I think we just have to agree to disagree,

By common accepted rule,(intentionally did not use "logic", hope it makes you happy ) it may be deemed strange or even autocratic to make such drastic laws that seems to purnish non-offenders who were merely witnesses to an offense. If this law targets the car owners (your big men) when they are present IN the car at the time of offense, then it should state so emphatically.

This is Nigeria where we don't have a choice, you want the passengers from a private vehicle or a public one to stage a mass protest by exiting the vehilce when a driver attempts to break a traffic law under in hot sun in a dead-locked traffic? Come on bro, look at it from two angles. You can fine the drivers, that is fine, but why fine passengers?

Anyway I respect your opinion, I think we can safely call it a wrap.

I thought i am through with this post, but the same old stupid argument keeps cropping up.

Skyblue, your arguments are warped, it does not make legal, social or even intellectual sense, i think you and your supporters are having "Military" hangover for the past 9 years.

Let Start by informing you that i have lived in Lagos and have been driving almost daily for the past 22years and have experienced the evolution and effects of traffic laws in Lagos. I had been apprehended and fined (illegal fines of course) so many times, that i have lost count on so many frivolous excuses by almost all the numerous traffic regulation agencies, i believe me I ALWAYS obey traffic laws. I can give you numerous examples, but one of the most annoying one was the one at Ikeja. I was on my way to Iyana Ipaja though Ikeja, I was trying to link the Oshodi express way from the link road from Ikeja Bus stop. When i a big sign with three arrows pointing right in front after the council, I was not sure what it meant, i was not sure whether to go straight or turn right. I stopped in the junction, and sighted a yellow fever by the council building, I then stuck my head out of the window and called him, I then asked him if the road was a one way, he answered yes. But the added that he was arresting me. In suprise, i said what for, he then said for taking one way, I was mad, as iwas still in the junction and had not even crossed the junction yet. He got into my car, called the rest of his colleagues, and order that i enter the council building.
I resisted leading to a fight, with passer's bye interferring. At the end of the day i parted with N1000 before i was let go. This is just one example, I have too many.

Now for the law itself;
It is only a mad man that expects a different effect from the same action under the same conditions.
Ten years ago, the fines were barely N1000 and the argument was that the fines are too small and it does not discourage offenders, so it was hiked to about N5000, and every other year it is hiked further. The present one is between N10,000 to N25,0000 and an offender is to undergo psychological evaluation (costing a further N5,0000).
Now has the spade of traffic violations stopped or even reduced? Do you think if the fines is hiked to N200,000, the situation would improve? I am waiting for the result of this latest hike.

What pains me most is the bashing the poor average Nigerian faces. He is blamed for everything that befall nigeria, he is blamed for corruption, lawlessness, etc meanwhile the actual people causing all our problems go unpunished. Have you ever heard or seen a big man being held for mere traffic violations in Nigeria. No in Nigeria, a "BIG MAN" is above
the law.

The annoying thing is that Nigerian believe that Law is an end unto itself, so lawyers argue letters and words of the law, leaving out the essence and what the law was meant to correct.

@wirinet go to the first page before you castigate me. If you want to make this about the enforcement of the fines themselves then fine, i understand and i am with you on that. I believe the way these fines are implemented is what is going to make a break the sucess of its intentions. I believe that a very aggressive campaign should be made to inform the public and that it is made clear that the fines are payable to the office of latsma and not to officers so that when you are confronted to pay up you can confidently challenge the officers. This i have already stated earlier and is what you are actually arguing. Where in the law does it say you pay the fines to officers? This is something that the authorities or governor can be contacted about so as to add clarity to the fines and their implementation because it is still not quite clear how these fines are to be implemented. Can you confidently say you know how the fines are to be implemented? If everyone is informed about how it is supposed to be implemented THEN we can now start shouting fair or unfair and we can confidently challenge officer who want to add jara to the law and implementation. However for the fines themselves, i understand the intentions and i am not against them. again, the sucess lies in the implementation.

Skyblue

Yes i understand there is a problem of implementation, but the exorbitant fines itself would defeat its implementation. i would rather pay N5,000 illegally than pay N50,000 legally. All the new fines would do in increases the illegal fines for traffic offense (real or concocted) from the present N500 to N3,000 (depending on thew severity of the violations to between N5,000 to N10,000. the traffic officers would be doing thanksgiving because of the new law now.

Skyblue, if the fines are N5,000 and enforced religiously without "partia" i am sure it would have its desired effect.

About fining passengers, why stop with passengers, why do u not charge a withness to a murder with the murderer for not stopping the murder. What about tax evaders, criminals and 419, in fact it should be written in our constitution, any body that witnesses a crime and does nothing to stop it is liable for the crime.

Nigeria only punishes ordinary people for petty crimes, the Yerimas of the world are in the senate, while the Jaga's have their hand chopped off for stealing a goat. Also it is only in Nigeria that a court would find that an election is massively rigged, but the riggers are not liable for punishment, now which is a more serious crime to a society, election rigging(treason) or traffic violations.

@wirinet, this is the thing, the understandable frustration which one can easily feel about the Nigerian situation has led you to justify wrong doings because people higher up are not punished. The fact that people like Odilli, Ibori, etc are walking free pains me a lot, it really does. Howver, does that automatically make black become white? Does that automatically make wrong become right? You say if the fine become 5000Naira and is enforced strictly then all would be OK, so what makes you think Lastma officers won't want to take 3000Naira bribe? And i find it amusing that you can compare a situation whereby the driver of a car you are in can go purposely drive against traffic endangering everyone and you sit there and say nothing or absolve yourself of any responsibility and liken such with witnessing a murder. Are you actually making that comparison? Yes you are right, they are EXACTLY thesame thing, LOL. You know what i mean but if you want to be coy then fine.

The fact that you say you rather pay 5000Naira illegally than pay 50000Naira legally says a lot about the Nigerian situation, does that mean you will be keeping 5000Naira in your pocket for when you want to break the law? The fact that such a fine can traumatise people shows that it is having the desired effects. With the rampant undisciplined and unruly behaviour that has become the norm, such fear and trauma into doing the right thing might be necesary. It is just the system of implementation that needs to be fine tuned. One easy way of doing this is if Lastma officials themselves can be fined and charged whenever they offer anyone an easy way out by bribery. That is just me brainstorming but i am sure people paid to come up with these idead can come up with much better systems to make sure the implementation is sucessful. AFTER sanity has been shocked or flogged back into existence THEN the fines can be reduced. Again i say it is the implementation and not the fines that are the problem.

Skyblue

I want to dispel a lot of wrong notions that you have;

If the fines are reasonable and payable, people with rather pay than bribe. Let me give you one example, of when i decided not to bribe.
I was going for a 8:30 appointment one morning at V/I, I was leaving surulere through stadium. At the bus stop opposite stadium, the danfo drivers had blocked the side road turning right, so i went straight towards stadium gate and turn sharp right joining cars coming from under the bridge (opposite Teslim Balogun Stadium). Immediately I turned LASMA officials from hiding jumped in front of my car, I stopped and asked what is happening. They said I took one way, i explain that it was not one way, they insisted it was. I said they should show me the sign. They said it has just been declared one way and the sign was not ready. I was so enraged that i decided not to bribe. They impounded my car,
then a tow van came from under the bridge to tow my car. I insisted on driving to their office and that their men should enter my car, they refused. Now the distance from Stadium to their office at Iponri is less than 2km. About 30m from their office the tow van broke down and i had to drive the remaining distance. After entering their office, i was given a fine of N5,000 for driving one way and N2,500 for towing of my car. I complained to every senior officer that i could fine with no avail. I was also informed that my fine will increase by N500 per day that my car spends on their office.


To pay the fines, I had to go to GTB Ikeja to get a teller (by taxi of course), then take the teller to Alausa to get a release letter, before coming back to Ipronri to get my car. By the time I got back to Iponri, it was already 4:00pm, and they close at 4, so i had to bribe to get my car out or else i would have come back the next day.
So when i say i would rather pay a bribe of N5,000, i know the trauma of paying fines in lagos

Another wrong notion is that the ruling elite can be lawless while asking the ordinary people to be lawful. Let me state categorically that:- A SOCIETY IS AS LAWFUL AS ITS LEADERS.
In england a minister can be in Jail for a mere traffic offense, In the US a senator can go to jail for an unappropriated behavior (sex). So the ordinary citizens dare not break the law.

@wirinet again all you have stated is problem with the implementations not the fines themselves. And yet again even if we have both agreed that leaders of the country have ben lawless to say the least you still want to use this as a justification for wrong doing.

Sky Blue:

@wirinet again all you have stated is problem with the implementations not the fines themselves. And yet again even if we have both agreed that leaders of the country have ben lawless to say the least you still want to use this as a justification for wrong doing.

that is the point that so many of you refuse to come to terms with - the execution of laws by police, lastma, ferma, frsc, KAI, and all the myraid bodeis in lagos is never about ensuring citizens do the right thing - but about extortion. none of those officials give a damn about people breaking the law - all they are concerned with is how much they can hit them up for.

i have not seen any of these guardians of the road campaigning for rehabilitation of existing roads, aboilition of cars of a partitcular age grade - its all about money.

until any of the eager advocates of 'sanity' become the victims of the area boys of the law, they will not understand - i can't wait to see if this fine will also apply to all those navy pricks and bullion vans who flout the no siren rule .ditto for soldiers. when lastma\ferma\police sees any of them breaking traffic laws they suddenly turn blind.