Even if we debate this matter till eternity the truth is that government has made up its mind.
They have started mass awareness campaigns and my sincere advice to all is to

[size=14pt]"AVOID ANYTHING IN THE COLORATION OF THESE OFFENSES".[/size] .

A friend of mine recently had his bus towed away by government. It will either be crushed in EPE or he needs to cough out a handsome N50,000 to reprocess the bus.

He was given ample time to comply but, like every Nigerian he said they cannot do such.

See what is happening with the enforcement of the BRT lane matter.

What we need to do is try to help enforce these new laws by educating friends and relatives.

We are too quick to analyze, criticize and say how this and that won't work.

We all need a change of mindset.

A majority of Nigerians are guilty of this one way driving offense.

I BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO PAYS THE FINE ONCE OF TWICE WILL HAVE A SERIUOS RETHINK THE NEXT TIME HE WANTS TO DRIVE AGAINST TRAFFIC.

EKO ONI BA JE!!

Implementation is everything.

We heard this same song and dance about Sharia law being a way to keep crime in check - until the first Christian was flogged

You can be fined up to $500 for throwing chewed gum in the streets of Singapore. Not $5000. There's a difference between stiff fines and draconian fines.

@texazzpete i don't think just because it is done somewhere else becomes an automatic precedence for Nigerians to follow however since you needed to mention singapore, so how much is $500 in naira? And all for spitting out chewing gum? And now how clean is the place?

@Skyblue
My point is a stiff fine worked without being overly draconian.

Singapore is clean, yes, but they could have achieved the same result by beheading anyone found guilty of dumping gum on the roads.

A recent bill in the Senate to arm the National Civil Defense corps was narrowly shot down. While many senators followed your school of thought that more armed deterrent would serve to reduce crime, Many others were rightly concerned at the thought of arming poorly trained recruits of unknown mental stability and sending them out on the streets.

@texazzpete you want to compare paying very stiff fines which is used as a deterrent for easily potentially fatal road behaviour with beheading and you think that is a fair comparison given the context?

the Lagos state government should start penalising drivers for unnecessary/excessive honking!!
the noise level in Lagos is just crazy

Sky Blue:

@texazzpete you want to compare paying very stiff fines which is used as a deterrent for easily potentially fatal road behaviour with beheading and you think that is a fair comparison given the context?

a large percentage of people driving one-way isn't how you painting it as taking another road during hold-up. it could be something as easy as driving down a road that was improperly marked or with the one-way marker removed. You think claiming innocence here will buy you any relief from lastma then?

A friend of mine came into lagos from the Uk and fell victim to this. He's spent three years away in the UK. He had to shell out 30 pounds to go scot free.

I myself have been in a car in Benin that fell into this kind of trap. We entered a road only for police to jump out claiming the road was 'one-way' we had to part with N5000 before going on.

There's potential for abuse. The more the fine, the higher the bribe the Police office knows he can demand for.


Finally: Previously, when you're arrested for frivolous reasons like that you could do the right thing and insist on going to the station to pay the fine. at least then the official fine would be only a few thousand more than the amount being extorted, but you'd have the pleasure of not allowing one greedy policeman to eat your cash.
now, that strategy is clearly not an option. Cue in policemen demanding for N50000 bribe or else you face paying N250000 officially.

@texazzpete now we are definately going round in circles lol. You keep on bringing up reasons of how the implementation will fail without actually bringing up solid reasons as to how the fine itself would not if properly implemented serve as a means of scaring people into being more cautious and doind the right thing. You keep on using excuses of how there is room for the police and officers to abuse such a system without aknowledgng that Nigerians also always find ways to abuse the system too. You reason that if the fine was reduced then people will be more inclined to pay. What makes you think if it was 1000Naira fine that people won't pay the officers 500Naira bribe or are you just speaking for yourself?

I still don't see the problem with the fine and have stated numerous times that its success lies in its implementation and aggressive info campaing to inform the public of the way these fines are to be implemented, etc. Yes it is if allowed very easy for such a system to be abused by not just the police officers but also by the citizens and drivers. Take some responsibility too.

@Sky Blue
You don't live in Nigeria, do you?
I mean, it's curious that you casually allow that the law could easily be abused by policemen. If you were on the receiving end of any attempted extortion, you'd see that paying N250000 when you're innocent is pretty galling.

At least in the UK they have surveillance cameras or tickets that are physcially issued.

Don't get me wrong; i'm all for public decency. I even had cause to dwell on this matter 2 days ago when i spent three hours in hold up because of drivers illegally forming a third lane, blockin goff part of the incoming traffic. I've voted for the ban on spraying money during weddings and a total ban on street parties. But i'm not keen on any system that can be abused easily. At least with harsh fines (not the draconian ones) the deterrence is still in place with the added benefit of having a not-too-high opportunity cost if you're hit by these lawless policemen.

@texazzpete when did i ever casually allow that the law be abused by policemen and how? I have on numerous occassions had the Nigerian Police Experience and rituals of "thanksgiving" and "offering time" at illegal police "check points". You were so quick to point out that the system is open to abuse by the police and i stated that it has been open to abuse by Nigerians too. What you don't seem to see is that again, your problem is with the implementation of the fines and how it can be abused, but with the lower fines that have been in place and continuosly abused. My suggestion for this is that people inform the government with regards to this and i have stated on previous posts what could be addressed about the implementation so i won't repeat.

So exactly which law among the listed ones are you worried about? Is it that easy for the police to fake that your car was abandoned if it was not parked by the express way? What about overloading? What about one way driving on the express way which does occur? The thing is that if the fines are reduced as i have continuosly stated what makes you think it won't just be a matter of reduction of bribes whereby people will be more willing to risk breaking the law because they know the bribe is less? You yourself know how crazy the road system is, as long as signs are put up and the public is well informed about the whole issue and fines are paid to latma (or even better the government) not its officials then i am fine with this. If well implemented, by the time the fines has shocked order into the system and enough time has passed then the fines can be reduced.

Sky Blue:

One way driving in most cases as reported and seen occurs in broad day light by totally sober people who think they are the only ones who need to get somewhere, by big men who seat in cars and pretend not to see what their drivers are doing and a lot of the time by taxi drivers and bus drivers who want to cut traffic and get ahead at the expence of endangering everyone else while the passengers say nothing as they want to get ahead too as if they are the only ones that need to get somewhere.

I can't believe i had to explain that because i am quite sure you know this so let us not be coy. If you see things differently fine but permit me thesame. You said it was obvious that such a law was there to generate revenue and i said not for me. For me i think it is obvious that the government put such law in place to encourage passengers to hold their drivers more accountable to behave and comply with the laws especially bus and taxi drivers. If passengers were all complaining to the driver and conductor that they should not break the law because they the passengers don't want to be fined would the drivers and conductors not feel extra pressure to comply to paying passengers? Lagos is not New York or Paris, you can't compare the level of blatant daylight and sober disregard for laws to those countries. Have a nice day

Sky Blue, honestly I still am struggling to understand your argument about one party being fined for another party's act.

Did you even bother to read the document well?

Can't you see that the passenger fines only apply to NON-COMMERCIAL VEHICLES?

Some of you guys need to stand understanding the wider perspective of law defining and the entirety of implications that might derive from setting a law in a certain way. So are you telling me that if a young boy or girl (lets say 20 yrs old) takes a free ride from a neighbour or relative (lets say 50 yrs old) that they hold in the usual african reverence (or even fear) and this neighbour/relative breaks this laws, it is fair to fine the youth for the adults acts that is out of their control? WHAT DA F! I don't understand this reasoning.

"encourage passengers to stop drivers from breaking the law"!!! What kind of reasoning is this! You are telling me you support authorities in passing their responsibilities to passengers?

What next? All passengers in a plane would be arrested if one is found transporting drugs? Or everyone walking on a street would be arrested for not encouraging one pedestrain from dropping litter?

This thinking is beyond me.

deor03:

@ somze

I guess the issues of including the passangers is because most ' big ' men on Lagos roads are passagers in their cars. They are not just ordinary passangers, they are the ones controlling the innocent drivers.

Laws are supposed to have a feel of the context in which it is being applied.  How many people have drivers in UK?

Something tells me that if you had thought this through you will realise that when a fine is imposed for a driver under the instruction of his big man, then the big man would be most likely picking up the bill anyway as it is his car that would be impounded. Hence the stupid passenger liability law should be redundant.

But with this stupid passenger liability law that you support for ONLY ONE scenario, we have a wide variety of situations where it can be misapplied but you still see sense in it.

Law enforcement is the responsibility of authorities NOT a passenger.

Na real wah for una.

LOL, @Sagamite you claim i did not read the document but i think you might be guilty of that. First of all at what age in Nigeria does the law begin to regard a person as an adult? So out of all the fines in the document is it only the driving against traffic fine you are against? What is the point of a deterrent exactly? And just to show that this seems to have been considered did you actually notice that all the other fines have what seems to be a fixed fine payment, however in only the one way driving does it state that the fine is not to exceed a certain ammount, did you not see that? What do you gather from that then? It seems to me it is up to the disposition of the officer and actually shows that this particular issue was thought of, it seems more severe in the sense that it involves passengers because for such a dangerous traffic offence (as i have continuously stated) it is common practise. However you paint the picture of teenagers getting fined which we both know is simply not going to be the case considering they are not regarded as adults under the law. So what about people who habour criminals that are liable to prosecution for doing so, could they not also be regarded as "passengers"?

Is the system open to abuse when put in a Nigerian context? Of course it is. But does that then make the problems the fines themselves? What i just did not get was the shock and horror factor attatched to the fines at the first page.  I simply did not get that, it is as if we were all living in denial as to how bad and dangerous the Nigerian style of driving is and how it continously causes traffic due to inconsiderate and toutish driving. It is just complete lawlessness. Can the fines be regarded as steep? Of course they are, but if it is going to make people more cautious when driving then i will not dismiss it considering how bad driving actually is.

Considering that this is Nigeria and lagos we are talking about, with the level of disregard for others on the road and the obscene height it has reached we can't just without putting a system to seriously deter people in place expect people that are used to the chaos to automatically behave. Something has got to give.

wirinet:

Skyblue

I want to dispel a lot of wrong notions that you have;

If the fines are reasonable and payable, people with rather pay than bribe. Let me give you one example, of when i decided not to bribe.
I was going for a 8:30 appointment one morning  at V/I, I was leaving surulere through stadium. At the bus stop opposite stadium, the danfo drivers had blocked the side road turning right, so i went straight towards stadium gate and turn sharp right joining cars coming from under the bridge (opposite Teslim Balogun Stadium). Immediately I turned LASMA officials from hiding jumped in front of my car, I stopped and asked what is happening. They said I took one way, i explain that it was not one way, they insisted it was. I said they should show me the sign. They said it has just been declared one way and the sign was not ready. I was so enraged that i decided not to bribe. They impounded my car,
then a tow van came from under the bridge to tow my car. I insisted on driving to their office and that their men should enter my car, they refused. Now the distance from Stadium to their office at Iponri is less than 2km. About 30m from their office the tow van broke down and i had to drive the remaining distance. After entering their office, i was given a fine of N5,000 for driving one way and N2,500 for towing of my car. I complained to every senior officer that i could fine with no avail. I was also informed that my fine will increase by N500 per day that my car spends on their office.


To pay the fines, I had to go to GTB Ikeja to get a teller (by taxi of course), then take the teller to Alausa to get a release letter, before coming back to Ipronri to get my car. By the time I got back to Iponri, it was already 4:00pm, and they close at 4, so i had to bribe to get my car out or else i would have come back the next day.
So when i say i would rather pay a bribe of N5,000, i know the trauma of paying fines in lagos

Another wrong notion is that the ruling elite can be lawless while asking the ordinary people to be lawful. Let me state categorically that:- A SOCIETY IS AS LAWFUL AS ITS LEADERS.
In england a minister can be in Jail for a mere traffic offense, In the US a senator can go to jail for an unappropriated behavior (sex). So the ordinary citizens dare not break the law.

This is a perfect example of my point that this whole thing is two ways.

How dare you request a fine for a one way offence when you have not even created the signs yet. NO SIGN, NO FINE!

How can an authority not implement a system that makes it easy to pay fines then also fines you for lateness of payments?

If you want western style sanity from consumers then you should provide western style infrastructure. You can't have a pothole bigger than a Baghdad suicide bomber's crater for over 15 years and then complain when people decide to drive on the better road rather than wait 3 hours to pass a place that should take them 10 mins. Even though they are wrong, the madness is a reaction to the mad actions of the authorities (who funnily now think they are entitled to fine these people).

As far as I am concerned, these fines should only apply to roads that have been conducively repaired, reasonably signposted and marked with traffic lines even if they can't put a yellow fever or traffic light.

@Sagamite if you were referring to other states i might take that whole infrastructure arguement as a serious one but you paint a picture of a state that has left things the way they are and just put these fines to make money because the standards are unattainable. However knowing that infrastrucure is being seriously addressed i won'tt be so quick to paint the picture you want to paint. Why not ask wirinet about the numerous rehabilitation projects that have been completed and those that are going on? Are the standards that unattainable though? Is it so hard to not abandon your car or overload it? Are the rules that ridiculous? Don't drive one way, wow that really is difficult. What wirinet narrated was an example of the system being easily abused because its implementation leaves a lot of room for this. I have not dispeled this fact and have said the success of such lies in its implementation. I was not in the car so i cannot state authoritatively. However the fines i will continously state seem at this point necessary to me.

When i say 'at this point', i mean at the point whereby there is not yet a tight nationwide system to properly identify cars etc, so taking registeration numbers might not be so succesful. Also the situation is not yet at the point where there are cameras everywhere. That could be worked on right now so what is going to happen at the interim with all the new roads springing up to ease traffic then? Continued breaking of the law from all directions? Even if there were cameras everywhere then you will have a situation whereby the police will be overswamped with offenders because people flout these laws like no mans business, why? Partly because the deterrent is not in place. Taking of licence points as was suggested earlier is just silly when the system is not in place to check this. Even if cameras are put everywhere as people have suggested, a deterrent is still needed to instill a better road safety culture.

Sky Blue:

So exactly which law among the listed ones are you worried about? Is it that easy for the police to fake that your car was abandoned if it was not parked by the express way? What about overloading? What about one way driving on the express way which does occur?

Yes, it is easy for the police. You yourself know Nigeria. If the police/lastma is obviously trying to exploit you, where is the avenue to raise an objection if you are not highly connected? Even if there is an avenue, what reasonable guarantee is there that the civil servants responsible for decision making in this avenue would be objective instead of forcing you to pay at least sonthing (if you don't want to pay the full fee) and sharing the loot with your accusers? And if you refuse or even object initially, it is you that would suffer because your car would be impounded for some serious weeks until you see common sense (i.e. at least drop sonthing).

As you said implementation is fundamental. What gives road users guarantees that it is not the lastma guys that would intentional damage roads to force people to break rules so they can get something to chop by catching them? It is Nigeria, mate.

@Sagamite so does that mean that you agree it is the implementation and the system not the fines that is the problem? This is something that seriously needs addressing and can be addressed, the deterrent is still inspite of this, there. At least there will be no abandoned tankers on express roads anymore which are seriously dangerous. The next thing should be certifying vehicles for road use worthiness.

Sky Blue:

LOL, @Sagamite you claim i did not read the document but i think you might be guilty of that. First of all at what age in Nigeria does the law begin to regard a person as an adult?

Yes that is why the adult that commited the crime should be the one to be punished not the authorities passing their responsibility to the passenger.

What next? The police would arrest everyone in a neighbourhood that has just been robbed because the residents didn't stop the crime?

The state has its reponsibilities and has no right to pass it to anyone with a threat of a fine.

Sky Blue:

So out of all the fines in the document is it only the driving against traffic fine you are against? What is the point of a deterrent exactly? And just to show that this seems to have been considered did you actually notice that all the other fines have what seems to be a fixed fine payment, however in only the one way driving does it state that the fine is not to exceed a certain ammount, did you not see that? What do you gather from that then? It seems to me it is[b] up to the disposition of the officer [/b] and actually shows that this particular issue was thought of, it seems more severe in the sense that it involves passengers because for such a dangerous traffic offence (as i have continuously stated) it is common practise.

The boldly highlighted text says it all. You are going to trust the disposition of someone that is paid N20K or less a month on potential avenues to enrich himself and provide for his family?

I have a problem with the whole concept not just passenger fines in cases where the authorities cannot provide and have not provided conducive transport infrastructure and planning.

Sky Blue:

However you paint the picture of teenagers getting fined which we both know is simply not going to be the case considering they are not regarded as adults under the law. So what about people who habour criminals that are liable to prosecution for doing so, could they not also be regarded as "passengers"?

You must be joking!

What is not going to happen? A chance to LASTMA guys to charge double (mother and son) and make more for themselves?

That 'harbouring criminal' analogy does not work for me, mate. If it was a case of a passenger shielding the driver from fine payment then i would say the analogy works.

Sky Blue:

Is the system open to abuse when put in a Nigerian context? Of course it is. But does that then make the problems the fines themselves? What i just did not get was the shock and horror factor attatched to the fines at the first page.  I simply did not get that, it is as if we were all living in denial as to how bad and dangerous the Nigerian style of driving is and how it continously causes traffic due to inconsiderate and toutish driving. It is just complete lawlessness. Can the fines be regarded as steep? Of course they are, but if it is going to make people more cautious when driving then i will not dismiss it considering how bad driving actually is.

This is what I have been trying to tell you. All the boldly highlighted phrases above are INDUCED by the imcompetence of the authorities that leads to lack of transport amenities and lawful behaviour.

We are not born mad. People in Benin Rep don't drive like us despite being next door and having almost the same blood and gene like us. Their infrastrusture is better and road markings/signs exist to INDUCE sanity.

Sky Blue:

@Sagamite if you were referring to other states i might take that whole infrastructure arguement as a serious one but you paint a picture of a state that has left things the way they are and just put these fines to make money because the standards are unattainable. However knowing that infrastrucure is being seriously addressed i won'tt be so quick to paint the picture you want to paint. Why not ask wirinet about the numerous rehabilitation projects that have been completed and those that are going on?

Well you are the one that lives in Lagos, I have not been there in the last 10 months. So I will not argue out of ignorance, and will have to take your word for this that changes are taking place. I wasn't impressed the last time I was there.

Sky Blue:

When i say 'at this point', i mean at the point whereby there is not yet a tight nationwide system to properly identify cars etc, so taking registeration numbers might not be so succesful. Also the situation is not yet at the point where there are cameras everywhere. That could be worked on right now so what is going to happen at the interim with all the new roads springing up to ease traffic then? Continued breaking of the law from all directions? Even if there were cameras everywhere then you will have a situation whereby the police will be overswamped with offenders because people flout these laws like no mans business, why? Partly because the deterrent is not in place. Taking of licence points as was suggested earlier is just silly when the system is not in place to check this. Even if cameras are put everywhere as people have suggested, a deterrent is still needed to instill a better road safety culture.

In regards to implementation, probably sanity can be achieved by requiring in most cases that police/lastma provide video evidence when fining people. That is, they film you discretely and then stop you. It won't be that hard.

With the current photographic capabilities of mobile phones, motorists can also film situations where the signs don't exist whether due to lack of provision or due to lastma people taking it down to make money.

The key there is for the AUTHORITIES to provide EFFICIENT, RELIABLE, NEAR INSTANT RESOLUTION and EASILY ACCESSIBLE avenues for ALL motorists to raise objections and challenge unjustified fines.

@Sagamite when last where you in lagos? I asked you not to take my word for it but to ask anyone living in lagos as i don't live in Lagos but due to interest follow the developments there very carefully. I said ask others, research and see what is changing. It really is not that difficult i can actually refer you to some places where you can see for yourself and when next you are in lagos you will be able to witness the changes. Lagos roads are not thesame as they were this time last year @texazzpete true or false? The camera idea is an obvious choice but is it that practical? I definately agree that an avenue should be made available whereby people should be able to object, however i hope you are aware that it is again stating problems with how the fines are going to work or be implemented.

Sky Blue:

@Sagamite so does that mean that you agree it is the implementation and the system not the fines that is the problem? This is something that seriously needs addressing and can be addressed, the deterrent is still inspite of this, there. At least there will be no abandoned tankers on express roads anymore which are seriously dangerous. The next thing should be certifying vehicles for road use worthiness.

I personally don't care if they charge one million or cut of your genitals if you break the rules.  

My argument is that, they need to make it undesirable for you to break the rules and easier (note I am not even saying 'easy') not to do so by making transport infrastructure and markings rise to a decent standard (note I am not even saying 'world class'), not the shambles that lagos has.

On a more serious note, I get a bit of texazz arguments about the level of the fines.

With such a high rate in fines, people are more likely to pay bribe even if they did not do anything wrong because (1) it is not as easy to be defiant by refusing to pay bribe and instead pay full and obtaining a receipt to ensure no one pockets your money for no reason and (2) they know there is unlikely to be an avenue to raise objections and even if their was one, the length and effort to resolve it might not be worth your attempt.

Sky Blue:

@Sagamite when last where you in lagos? I asked you not to take my word for it but to ask anyone living in lagos as i don't live in Lagos but due to interest follow the developments there very carefully. I said ask others, research and see what is changing. It really is not that difficult i can actually refer you to some places where you can see for yourself and when next you are in lagos you will be able to witness the changes. Lagos roads are not thesame as they were this time last year @texazzpete true or false? The camera idea is an obvious choice but is it that practical? I definately agree that an avenue should be made available whereby people should be able to object, however i hope you are aware that it is again stating problems with how the fines are going to work or be implemented.

Forgive me, mate. I have lost hope with my sources.

They kept on telling me year after year that Tinubu was doing well only for me to be heavily disappointed everytime I visit.

I guess my sources' standards are just plain low due to the extent of incompetence they have had to endure.

Take for example Muritala Muhammed Airport. Have you guys not noticed the hazard of the airport on arrival because arrivees have to queue on moving escalators? And within a 12 month period between my last 2 visits, no one has resolved this.

The authorities in Nigeria are more mad than the people.

For those that keep referring to the sanity in places like London, the authorities do so much that if you are ever fined, you will usually have no option but to blame yourself because everything is in place for you not to break the law or to fight your case quickly if you feel wronged.

This makes it easier to feel obligated to pay the fine although some still complain about the high cost of fines. But the authorities are so good (unlike Nigeria) that they even lower the fine by 50% if you pay within a 2 week period.

My argument reiterated: Good/decent systems justifies rules or fines.

This is what I am talking about, Repair and then legislate.

http://www.punchng.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art200807201223246

Good job.