ravgach:
4. Ecc. 12:7 clearly answered your question number 1. It tells you, we go to heaven in this new dispensation while the old testament believers went to paradise until Jesus resurrection.

ravgach: A

The new heaven and new earth is the final thing that will happen. It will usher in the new world order which is commonly referred to in scripture as "The World to Come". It will be the final answer to the prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". It will be home of the saints. A restoration of the Garden of the Garden of Eden. An unhindered, uninterrupted fellowship between God and man. I can't wait to be there!

haibe:

I understand that the passage above tells us we will be where Jesus is, but other scriptures suggest that we will end up in the new earth, does that mean after we go to heaven that God will later deport us back to the new earth? It doesn't seem logical to me since christ said "there are many mansions", so why can't we stay in heaven forever?? if truely that's what He meant.

Am in no way saying its not Heaven(God's abode) that Christ meant but i think what Christ meant in that verse is that He goes to prepare the new earth/jerusalem for us, he goes on to say, that where i am there ye may be also, the new earth/jerusalem is such that the glory of God is always present, it depicts a place that has been 'prepared' for us by Jesus, the presence of God is always there and so its logical for Jesus to say "that where i am, there ye may be also".

"1. And i saw a new heaven and earth; for the first heaven and the first earh were passed away and there was no more sea.

2. And i john, saw the holy city, new jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven PREPARED as a bride adorned for her husband.

3.And i heard a great voice saying: the tabernacle of God is with men and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God" (Revelation 21:1-3)

From this passage it seems to me that this is the place Jesus said He was going to'prepare' for us, the holy city new Jerusalem which came down from God out of heaven, so Jesus will always be present with us in this new Jerusalem and so it logical for him to say "that where i am, there ye may be also"

So personally i think its this new jerusalem that Jesus went to prepare for us in heaven and not that we will dwell in heaven(God's abode).

So when paul talks about us going to holy city like the other brother quoted from corinthians, i think it would be wrong to conclude its heaven(God's abode), it could be this holy city(new jerusalem).

Please you can correct me if i am mistaking, God bless you.

salt 1: bible scholars generally agree that this is not a parable but a real thing. In other parables names are not mentioned. But the man in paradise has a name.

You are right in the second issue. No one will resurrect earlier than the first resurrection.

The wages of sin is death. Death is not the sleep which people do now which we erroneously call death. Death is eternal separation from Jesus

haibe: @JMAN05, i do not mean that the new heaven is God's abode, i never said anything like that, the word heaven is also used to denote the skies, so my point is that we will be in the new jerusalem which will come from God out of heaven down to the new earth and not some kind of heaven/paradise in the skies, and i do buy the idea that we go to heaven or hell immediately after we die, that's my point in simple term.

About the heaven and earth, i think this heaven and earth will pass away literally (2 peter 3:10-11)

JMAN05:


You said that we will either go to heaven or hell after death. if so, who then will be resurrected during christ's presence since all dead would have gone to heaven already?

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and[b] the dead shall be raised incorruptible[/b], and we shall be changed."

JMAN05:

I dont think so. why? I also gave my reasona above.

Peter was repeating a prophesy that once fulfilled among jews. God promised them when they were in babylon:

Isaiah 65:17 KJV
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

When that prophesy fulfilled, God didnt create a literal earth and a literal sky, did He?

rather what we saw was a new society of individuals (new earth) under new rulership (new heaven).

I think that this is the way its going to be, globally. that there will be a righteous society (new earth) after bad people are destroyed under new govt of God's kingdom ( new heaven).

haibe:

Can you kindly show me where i said this, lol you should also read well before replying me, i have said several times that i do not buy the idea, re-read my post before this, the idea of going to heaven after death rules out the necessity of resurrection, if we can get to heaven immediately after we die, then Christ did not need to die and resurrect before his ascension to heaven, it is this same hope of resurrection we believers have in getting to heaven not a kind of soul leaving body experience after death, man is a soul, he doesn't have a soul and the soul does die(ezekiel 18:4) but will be resurrected to eternal life or eternal damnation later on (John 5:28-29), it is after this that the righteous goes to heaven/paradise and the unrighteous are destroyed in the lake of fire which is synonymous with hell/gehana(a place of burning)

haibe:

I doubt this is what peter means, peter's words in those verses were literal not some kind of prophesy in babylon, you may be right about that but what peter meant here by earth is apparently not symbolic to mean "people", this is literal earth.

"10. But the day of the lord shall come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the element shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up.
11. Seeing all this things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we according to the promise look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dweleth righteousness. (2 peter 3:10-13)

This is obviously literal bro and not a kind of figurative earth here.

JMAN05:

grammatically, what is the meaning of "I do buy the idea"?

haibe:

Ecc 12:7 says: Then the dust shall return unto the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

So bro it did not go with your claim above.

This verse is simply saying when one dies he goes back to the dust since that's what he was made of, and his spiirt(breath) goes back to God who gave it.

Can you provide a simple scripture(not parable) that says when people died the old testament they went to paradise or hell?

And also show me where the bible says in this new dispensation when one dies he goes straight to heaven or hell even when the resurrection has not taken place?

ravgach:

I want you to know that:

1. The spirit is not mere breath.

It is the whole essence of the individual. Proverbs 20:27. Breaths are like smokes from the exhaust pipe of a working machine.
The smoke is not the machine itself but a sign that it is working. If spirits are mere breaths does it mean when the breath goes back to
God, He adds it to His or what? What does God do with ordinary breath? Spirits are the real man. The body houses that spirit. That is why
Apostle Paul calls the body "Tabernacle" 2 Corinthians 5:1. We would be invisible with our bodies. We only become invisible at dead. Is the
Spirit of God his Breath as well? No! Spirits engage in activities and communication Revelation 6:9-10; Acts 13:2; Mark 5:12. When you
say that one is possessed by evil spirit, does it mean the breath of evil entered into him? No. But an evil personality.

ravgach:

2. Believers who died in the old covenant and before the resurrection of Christ went to paradise. 2 Kings 2:11; Genesis 5:24; Luke 23:43;
1 Peter 3:18-20. This is on the strength of the assertion of Jesus Christ in John 3:13. The Words of Christ is sacrosanct!

ravgach:

3. Believers who die or have died after the resurrection Christ go to heaven straight while their bodies are buried under the earth. At
resurrection, their spirits through the power of God will quicken their bodies and they will be translated and have the body of angels.
I Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11. Some say they will be given a glorious body from heaven. This is half-truth. The truth is that it is the bodies of
the dead that will be quickened. If not there will be no need for resurrection to take place, their spirit which is already in heaven would
have just been clothed and that is all. Do not forget that even those living at that time will also be translated.

haibe:

Is there any scriptural prove that when a man dies he does not remain in the grave till resurrection? Or that when a man dies he goes straightaway to heaven or hell? I have already answered you on this one.
[/font][b][/b]
Firstly i don't buy the idea that man has a separate soul from his body and spirit, i think the combination of a man's body and spirit is what is called soul(Genesis 2:7), although some people see the soul as the heart of man. The issue here is not what idea you buy. The question is: Does the scripture support this? The answer is a big YES. James 2:26 makes the spirit and body distinct. In Genesis 3:19 God made the body from the dust. In Genesis 2:7 God animated the body (ground) by the "breath of life" and the man became a living soul. In other words, the blood that animated man, was created by the breath of God. Leviticus 17:11-14; Genesis 1:20-21. In Genesis 1:26-27 God made man in his own image (Spirit). John 4:24.

The issue of Jesus and the thief on the cross has been mis-interpreted due to slight mis-translation of that verse, the greek manuscript never had punctuations, neither did it have lower case letters and it was hardly spaced, this made translation a bit difficult.

That verse reads: "And Jesus said, verily i say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise"-this is how most versions put it, but christian theologians have found out the punctuation placement is wrong and should read:

"And Jesus said, verily i say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise"

So Jesus wasn't saying the thief would be in paradise with him that day, he says i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

This is right since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days and did not ascend to heaven until he resurrected on the third day, so its obvious Jesus wasn't telling the thief on the cross that he will be with him that day since he(Jesus) himself had not ascended to heaven until the third day. Paradise is the new jerusalem which God has promised the saints later after all the necessary end time events have occured, just like the garden of eden too. This is wresting the scriptures. Jesus was not just in the grave for 3 days. His body was there but he was out. I peter3:18-20;

The spirit of man is the breath of God in his nostrils and not something that can exist independently, stephen was only expecting God to receive his spirit(the breath which would leave him after his death).

haibe: @JMAN05, the words in the kjv sounds literal to me and not some kind of symbol but well, i will do a study on that.

ravgach:

4. Is there any proof that if a man dies he does not remain in the grave?

Yes! The body remains in the ground but his spirit goes out. Ecc.12:7; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59

haibe:

Let me ask:
1) Who are the dead people that will hear Jesus voice in mattew 5:28?? and who are those dead people that "you say" will go to heaven after they die? The dead are simply those whose bodies are now in the grave and whose spirits are with the Almighty God in Heaven if they are believers. This should not challenge your mind as with God all things are possible.

2) What is the essence of resurrection and putting on a spiritual body and why did the bible call resurrection our only hope of life if we can go to heaven immediately after we die without resurrection?

haibe: @ravgach how can you interprete 1 peter 3:18-20 to mean Jesus went to somewhere when he was dead or hell like you may think.

What that passage is saying is that Jesus "by the Spirit of God" preached to those disobedient people in the time of noah to set them free from prison(sin) simple,( whosoever comiteth sin is a slave(prisoner) to sin), you would understand this verse if you believe Jesus existed before coming to earth as human.

haibe:

Ecc 12:7 does not use the spirit in the context you mean it, the spirit is the breath of God which goes back to him when a person dies.

Job says the spirit of God is in my nostrils(job 27:3), it is the spirit of God(breath of God) that is in man's nostrils, that is what powers us to live, so solomon wasn't talking about a spirit being here.

Eccle 12:7 says: the dust shall return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

now if this spirit can go to heaven or hell, why did solomon restrict it to God? He says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, why not satan in hell?

ravgach:

You have to be a bit sophisticated here. Solomon I believe did not have the same privilege that we have to read many authors that where inspired by God. You and I have the privilege to read both the new and old testament scriptures, so we know better than Solomon today. He wrote from his limited knowledge but to show he was inspired, he was on point just that he was not specific. If I ask you after your brother who is in the university of Ife for instance and you say: "he is in school". What does it mean? A lay man can say he said his brother is in school that all. But anyone who know better will interpret that statement appropriately. When Solomon says "The spirit goes back to God who made it what does he mean? When Jesus in John 20:17: 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." What does he mean? Let us not be babes. He is simply referring to the place where the dead in the Lord go to when they die. Jesus Himself told us it is paradise.

ravgach: Do not confuse things here. Spiritual body does not mean that God has built a special body somewhere and kept it for their spirits to now occupy it. No. Spiritual body refers to the translation. Please refer to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That same body that was nailed on the cross was the one resurrected. That was why Thomas was able to put his fingers into the nail-pierced hands of Jesus. In the same way, the bodies of the dead will be animated by their spirit at the sound of the trumpet by the power of God. Romans 8:11. If there was a special body prepared somewhere, resurrection would not be required anymore for what is the need then? Moreover everyone will be judged according to what he has done in his BODY 2Corinthians 5:10.

haibe:

The same holy Spirit that inspired solomon is the same one that inspired other writers, solomon did not write through his knowledge but that of the Holy spirit, so the idea that he wasn't priviledge to know is invalid.

Jesus said he goes to the father doesn't mean he went immediately after he died, you fail to realise that Jesus has resurrected here and is ready to enter heaven, he could not have entered without this glorified body. obviously he was buried for three days and only ascended on the third day, he did not ascend to heaven till the third day, the idea that when He died he went to heaven straight in a spirit form is pure heresy and false, Jesus only ascended after the ressurection

"Jesus said unto her, 'touch me not for i am not yet ascended unto my father..." (John 20:17), this is three days after his death and he hasn't ascended to heaven.

haibe: My question: Who are the dead people that will hear
Jesus voice in mattew 5:28?? and who are
those dead people that "you say" will go to
heaven after they die?

Your answer: The dead are simply
those whose bodies are now in the grave and
whose spirits are with the Almighty God in
Heaven if they are believers. This should not
challenge your mind as with God all things
are possible.

@ravgach you did not answer my question, i wasn't asking who the dead are ordinarily.

My question is this: since you believe the dead to heaven or hell immediately after they die, who then are the dead that will hear Jesus voice and wake up in mattew 5:28??

"28. Marvel not at this things for the hour is coming in which THOSE WHO ARE AT THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE"
29. AND SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good unto the ressurection of life and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation"

So who are this people coming forth from the grave that hears His voice since, the dead(according to you) goes to heaven and hell straight??

ravgach:

We learn everyday.

1. Inspiration does not mean that the writers do not have that personal challenges. If you study the old testament properly, you will discover that the old testament believers had challenges with the issue of resurrection. Their spiritual capacity of their minds could not carry it. Job 19:26. So it was possible for them to have had difficulty comprehending the things revealed to them since they were not writing dictations. But you will know what they are saying even if they do not say it directly as the case of Solomon.

2. I told you that when a man dies in the Lord, his spirit goes to God in heaven immediately but you had issues with that. Now, look at what happened when Jesus died: His Spirit went to God “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Luke 23:46. On the resurrection morning His Spirit returned and quickened His body. There is not going to be any difference between our resurrection and that of Jesus. The same baptism the same resurrection. The same heirs. When Jesus' body was in the grave He was given assignment to lose those spiritually bound and also do some preaching. Hebrews 2:15; 1Peter 3:18-20. When He resurrected, He came out with some of them and took them to heaven Matthew 27:57

3. When Jesus resurrected, he did not allow anyone to touch Him until he had presented himself to the Father. He appeared spiritually but ascended to heaven physically for evidence purposes.

ravgach:

We learn everyday.

1. Inspiration does not mean that the writers do not have that personal challenges. If you study the old testament properly, you will discover that the old testament believers had challenges with the issue of resurrection. Their spiritual capacity of their minds could not carry it. Job 19:26. So it was possible for them to have had difficulty comprehending the things revealed to them since they were not writing dictations. But you will know what they are saying even if they do not say it directly as the case of Solomon.
.

ravgach:

This question does not arise as the bodies of the dead are still in the grave. They only go to heaven spiritually.