@4Him:

This is the 3rd time i am correcting this deliberate lie . . . which of the 10 commandments did Paul overturn?

To answer your question, I I had to post the 10 commandment, as provided by Esss. I highlight the portions that I deem compromised by Paul and Company. It is now that you have to defend it. Prove me wrong, considering what Jesus said that is so clear about his fulfillment of these very 10 Commandmends. And also his injuctions of not diminishing as to obliterate the least of its parts. How then, in addition can Trinity finds its way to post Jesus era, in the light of these 10 Commandments and Mark 12 Verse 29?

THE TEN COMMANDMENT OF GOD TO THE ISREALITES THROUGH MOSES

Exodus 20:1

And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants} : Please note that Jesus, when was threatened, the first time, his parents ran off with him, for preservation of his life, in the same Egypt! Was he the One Who brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt, under Moses? We must consider that, according to the Bible the 3 wisemen had already shown him to be a king, he had already had been displaying some good knowledge of the scripture, even in the Temple!



3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.: Is Trinity therefore an antithsis of this very verse, if one look at the Mark 12 Verse 29 of the bible? What exactly will this Mark 12 Verse 29 supports, Trinity of 3 manifested persons or the One God whereby any other form of existence of gods is nullified?


4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:: The cross and all the imageries, etc, if they are not against this very verse, what then is against this verse?


5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Please tell me is what the Christians doing today, Praising Jesus and serving him not directly against this verse, after knowing fully well that Jesus declared himself, in Mark 1 Verse 29, that he is neither God nor Lord ver anyone! Read it again. You will see that it goes directly to the meat of this 5th commandment. Interestingly, that verse has Lord and God in the same way as Mark 12 verse 29.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. : THis is Saturday. Jesus observe it, with the addition of doing life saving work. That is holiness. What have the Christians, except a few did? Completely abandoned it for another day; Sunday.


9[b] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:[/b]: Do the Christians follow this rule?


10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Do the Christians observe this law? The lifesaving deed performed by Jesus is in line with though shall not kill. If he had left out the performance of that deed, it could be taken as if Jesus himself had murdered him.


16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.: Who could be jesus' neighbor, except those who claimed to be his disciples and then his earliest of apostles? These were the people who formulated Christianity and Churches and Bible, etc. Please somebody should tell me how Jesus became god, in the face of Biblical New Testaments that clearly contradict it? Look at Mark 12 Verse 29, for a starter. Where did worshipped in a Church, when it was always in a Jewish Temple? Did he himself bulit, participated in building one? Is this not the same light of case, which are clearly thoughts of deceiving the gullible, specifically after jesus had left the world stage?

It reminds me of the guy who is alluciating and claimed that he heard Jesus talking to him from heaven. Whereas the fellow never was known to Jesus, while he was on earth. He was the only person hearing this heavenly jesus voice, while he himself did not hold any prophetic office from God Lord Almighty! Those who lied against Jesus, claiming for Jesus, what he did not claim for himself, are no less that false witnesses and actually liars.

@4Him:

You laid the false allegation, the burden of proof is on you. Find me circumcision and dietary laws in the 10 commandments.

Though, the circumcision and dietary laws are not in the 10 commandments. They are however parts of the major laws in the Old Testaments. They were nonetheless observed by all prophets, including Jesus son of Mary. Do I have to remind you that Jesus, from his own lips said that he came not to abolish, but rather to fulfil all the laws that were given before him. He therefore warned the people who will live after him, not to abolish and never to encourage anyone to fail in observing these laws. What did Paul do? He discouraged compulsion of circumcision, and encouraged the consumptions of Pork!

The circumcision is still very much around - water baptism . . . Read Colossians.

When the foreskin is removed, there is blood. Replacing this rite with the so called water baptism is like calling the servant in the family, the head of that family. Did Jesus have his foreskin removed? Did Jesus, at anytime advocate for a water baptism as a replacement for the removal of foreskin from the Instruments, which is worldwide known as circumcision for males? Are you circumcised? Its a Yoruba rite. Mine is primary because of islamic religion. Even my boys have their removed. One in Brookly's kings County Hospital. The other in Newark, NJ's St Michael's Hospital. I guess I am a follower of Jesus more than you. Yours is lip service, only.

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 10:08:14 PM
Let me use your analogy here to illustrate, the matriculating effort of the Berean Christians: The Professor who is teaching them, and the tutor who is given tutorial and the more learned colleague are one in different bodies/manifestions! Each with a different name though. Hogwash!

Your statement here is not only grammatically incorrect, it makes no sense whatsoever . . . hogwash is perfect description for it i agree.

I leave my response intact for others to see, so that they will know how deceitful you are!
Some how, you developed reader's blockage to my writing. Do not forget that you had laid claims that the Berean Christians were being tutored by Paul. He was there Professor, was he? Then you said that the Berean Christians were consulting the Holy ghost/spirit for understanding of what he, Paul had taught them. When I look at the verse of the Book of Act, that you quoted, there is no inkling of holy ghost being consulted by the Berean Christians. How come? Did you infer this from your own deduction, or there is a verse that indicate it, in the Act?

If there is no verse, then how can I believe that you are not to pull wool over my eyes? This is your Book. Its not complicated for you. Unlike me, Bible is not something I pick up to read, routinely.

Again, since Jesus, was the professor, textbook and most knowledgeable with his disciples, realising that they would not need holy ghost. We see co-god, Jesus is available. Who are the entities now playing the same roles in the lives of the Berean Christians? Tell me by name, who is the Professor, who is the textbook and who is the more knowledgeable colleague? And finally what is the role of the holy ghost that is not there, in the quest for scriptural knowledge effort mounted by the Berean Christian, in the context of the Book of Act verse you quoted? David, there was no Holy ghost/spirit in the Verse of the Book of Act! You simply have invented it. You can not draw the conclusion from any inference.

There are plenty of verses where Christ said - I and MY FATHER ARE ONE.

You wrote a long riposte . . . most of it was unintelligible nonsense.

You lied. You and your father are not one. Proof; His wife testifies to the fact that you are not her husband. Your father is a husband. Your father's parents are very clear who is their son. Your father is their child, while you are their grandson. Your father's friends know who their friends from youth is. Definitely not you, because you shared none of the histroy/knowledge of their youth. (Do you know anything about the 1960s? Anything, David? This reminds me of Jesus not knowing the time of the Hour!). Your father's colleagues in his office or emplyment know who can rightfully sit in his seat. It aint you, David. You can not sign with any authority where he will sign. If you did, you will charged for fraud. Just imagine you trying to notarize a document, passing up as your father? How can you pass for 50 something man, at your age? (THis remind me the foolish claims that the Christians have made for Jesus, as the own who will save and also judge. Even they exagerate the roles of the 12 disciples/apostles to be judging 12 nations of Israel!

What will be the role of God? Who will be judging the rest of mankind?

@Davidylan:

. . . they on the other hand had the scriptures of the prophets and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide them.

It seems as if you are telling us that the holy spirit did not dwell inside people until post Jesus era? Is that so? I remember that even John who later bermitva Jesus according to the Jewish culture/law had the holy sirit dwelling inside him, while he was still in his mother's womb! So were others, with different experiences of the holy spirit dwelling inside them.

They had the torah, they had some of the gospels, they definitely had the books of the old testament prophets as Christ and the other apostles quoted liberally from them in some of their letters.

If the Torah was the scripture and some gospels, the two books must have agreed with each other about God. Otherwise, there would have been so much redflag about 3 gods manifestations, known as trinity? We see that the Jews were up in arm to kill Jesus for what they considered as blasphemy to God, since they take his word, indirectly to mean that he was equal to God! Tell me, how did trinity came about since the Old Testament is not aware of its possibility?

Above you had mentioned that the apostles quoted liberally the OT in their letters. WWould you not see that their letters were admixtures of the Scriptures and personal opinions? Could both, especially the personal opinion parts of the letters be considered God's own words? You see where and how the Bible is corrupted now? This is just an example.

[/quote]
Every true born again child of God has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Its not too farfetched to assume the Holy Spirit was guiding them in their spiritual walk with God.
[quote]

It seems therefore, again you are insinuating that the companions of jesus were not truly born again? How can he not have a good selection of followers, at the end of his prophetic life? Should he have been capable of molding them to first class born again? The best of his followers?

Paul did not overturn any commandments. Like i said earlier please remove your head from the sands of deliberate lies . . . circumcision and dietary laws are not part of the 10 commandments.

As I read about the 10 commandments, I just can't but notice that Paul, acted as a usurper in the company of his expected "more learned," companions. Afterall, the original disciples had the luxury of the master himself, Jesus as their noble professor. At best Paul, to this people could never be able to serve more than a tutorial instructor, while they they, the disciples are supposed to be the professors and head of departments and dean of school! But it seems now that he had overcome them and actually is teaching and they were listening to him. Explain that to me, David!

Is it possible that you, a young man be lecturing your older sibling or cousins, the family history, while they had spent long time within the family structure/compound in Nigeria, and actually listened to grandpa tell them directly, while you were being raised up in boarding school? Then ending up in Overseas, for as long as you had? Could you be an authority in your family history over these other family members? If your answer is no, since they painstakingly listened to grandpa tell it to them, and you did not, then, know that this is the same condition with paul versus the true companions of Jesus Christ!

Quote from the intro on the 10 Commandment from Wkipedia: Still others believe that the Sabbath remains as a day of rest on Saturday, reserving Sunday as a day of worship. In reference to Acts 20:7, the disciples came together on the first day of the week (Sunday) to break bread and to hear the preaching of the apostle Paul. unquote.

alhaji, who has time to read your meaningless epistles? Did you learn summary in secondary school?

KunleOshob:

A lot of christians may not be aware but what they are practising and what obtains in most churches today is not chrisitanity but churchianity. If we agree that true christianity as inspired by christ is based on his teachings and we believe the apostles were directed by christ to establish the church and we read an believe our bibles, then we would realise that what is being practised today is definitely not christianity but an adulterated version of it designed primarily to suit church leaders. Anybody who as truly studied the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ would easily attest to the fact that the greatest message of Christ was love as such that should be very foundation of any church that professes christianity but it is the opposite we have today.

Matthew 22:35-39:
35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”
   37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

Love was the central theme of the gospel of christ, christ also taught us to love our enemies and he demonstrated to us that to love God you must love your fellow men. In otherwards to be a christian you must be full of love for every body and you must demonstrate that love by helping people around us who are less priviledge. This is the most important thing we can do as christians. The unfortunate thing is that this central message of christianity as been lost by the church and "christians" people are now "christians" because of what they think they can get from the church (salvation and prosperity) were as the true christian spirit should be about giving and showing love. Although churches today encourage you to give( which we should) they are only interested in you giving to the church and nobody else, this totally against the christian spirit of helping those in need.

Peter is the apostle Jesus directed to establish the church quoted below is Jesus last instructions to peter regarding the church before his acension

Passage John 21:14-17:
14 This was the third time Jesus had appeared to his disciples since he had been raised from the dead.
   15 After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?[a]”

   “Yes, Lord,” Peter replied, “you know I love you.”

   “Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him.

   16 Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

   “Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love you.”

   “Then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said.

   17 A third time he asked him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

   Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.”

   Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep.

Here Jesus is clearly directing peter (the church) to take care of his followers and attend to their needs but today it is the other way round, it is the followers that are taking care of the church leaders. The above passage also demonstrate that loving God means showing love to our fellow human beings and not necessarily making offerings to the church as some pastors would have you believe.
Let us now examine the practise in the early church inspired by Jesus and established by the apostles
Acts 2:45:
45 They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need
Acts 4:32-35:
    32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all. 34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need.

we can see from the above passage that collections in the early church was primarily meant to help the needy (both within and outside the church) but today the church doesn't care about those in need all collections go towards what they call "running of the church" even those in need are also expected to contribute to the church so that they can receive "blessings". If we examine the practise in the early church you would observe there was real love there as inspired by christ but today that practise of sharing and demonstrating love by the church is conspiciously absent and our church leaders couldn't care less. Even if you have a problem and you approached the church the best they would do about it is to pray about it, you would hardly see any church coming to a members aid financially. some of them would even try and exploit you further by suggesting that you are having difficulties because you don't tithe faithfully.

The truth is that true christianity that was established by the apostles and inspired by Jesus is no longer being practised ( at least in any church i know of) because true love is the cental theme of the Jesus message to us. that message is not being practicalized in most churches today. However jesus himself predicted that we would be led astray

Matthew 15:8-9:

   8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

   9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

A lot of teachings in today's churches are commandments of men being presented to us as the word of God, the great apsotle Paul also had something to say on this topic:

Romans 16:17-18:
   17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people.

Today christianity as been seriously hijacked and that is why we now have several different denominations each one preaching their own biase, but most of them if not all having departed from the original church practise of sharing and demonstrating love amongst beleivers. I hereby call on all true believers and followers of christ to return to true christianinty as established by the apsotles and inspired by our Lord Jesus christ. we should challenge our church leadership because they have led us astray. We should study the churches the apostles established and emulate them. For us to fully understand what the true christian church should be like , i encourage every one to read the Acts of the apostles and all the espitles written in the new testament. You would discover that we have departed from true christianity and what is being practised is DOCTRINES of men being presented to us as the word of GOD.
 

I just want to say. . .   THANK YOU for this.

@Davidylan:

alhaji, who has time to read your meaningless epistles? Did you learn summary in secondary school?

Yes I learnt it in High school. And also did technical writing in College. BBut for you, I got to be generous. maybe Over kill. Since you are not honest about what the real world is, then i have to go the extra mile.

But all of these mean nothing to a heart that has not faith! Now, go and acquire faith first. You will see what it means to be thorough. You can't assume that i am saying something else, since an point specific.

olabowale:

@Davidylan:
Yes I learnt it in High school. And also did technical writing in College. BBut for you, I got to be generous. maybe Over kill. Since you are not honest about what the real world is, then i have to go the extra mile.

But all of these mean nothing to a heart that has not faith! Now, go and acquire faith first. You will see what it means to be thorough. You can't assume that i am saying something else, since an point specific.

what is the islamic definition of faith FROM THE QURAN?

Faith is belief in Allah as your Only Lord and adhere to all His commandments. Thats the shortest and direct summary you can have of this. But it is more complex that that. But I guess your heart can not handle anything deep right now.

olabowale:

Faith is belief in Allah as your Only Lord and adhere to all His commandments. Thats the shortest and direct summary you can have of this. But it is more complex that that. But I guess your heart can not handle anything deep right now.

Is this in the quran? Were is the verse that explicitly deals with faith as a quranic concept?
I'm tired of paraphrased opinions dressed up as fact.

@Davidylan


I have never seen a confused human being like you and a very treacherous person indeed. You couldnt profer rebuttal to his posts but decided to turn the table and divert to another issue 'faith'. Are you not ashamed of your long lost battle? Why not accept Islam and be saved. Mind you, I wanted to come in with regards to the 10 commandment as being what will aid you in gaining paradise in contrary to believing in the blood of a creation that couldnt save himself but didnt want to divert the topic. I wouldnt know where you got your fabricated doctrines from having read verses when Jesus plainly told a man to follow the commandments in he would gain eternal life and never told you to just believe in his blood and you would be saved.

In addition, without playing the game of dishonesty, you know that Paul kicked against most of the doctrines preached by OT prophets and even Jesus in which you could have seen some in those 10 commandments up.

In order not to deviate from the topic at hand. I leave you in the hands of my knowledgeable brother but would come in when I see you misrepresent biblical verses.

Good luck in your quest for truth (Islam)

@Davidylan: Its a good thing that you are from the stock of people who have better than average IQ. Otherwise, you would be a very bad student. At your age, you can't do a research on Faith in God from Islamic perspective? What if you are one of the Berean Christians? You would never have hit the scriptural books and seek the guidance of the "Holy Spirit," that never was! No wonder your phrase hook, line and sinker about Paul. You are the prototype to fall for a thing like that.

From Wikipedia first: There definition of Islamic Iman, without Qur'anic verses. I will in time post the verses from the Qur'an.

[edit] Islam
Main article: Iman (concept)
Faith in Islam is called iman. It is a complete submission to the will of Allah which includes belief, profession, and the body's performance of deeds consistent with the commission as vicegerent on Earth, all according to Allah's will.

Iman has two aspects

Recognizing and affirming that there is one Creator of the universe and only to this Creator is worship due. According to Islamic thought, this comes naturally because faith is an instinct of the human soul. This instinct is then trained via parents or guardians into specific religious or spiritual paths. Likewise, the instinct may not be guided at all.
Willingness and commitment to submitting that Allah exists, and to His prescriptions for living in accordance with vicegerency. The Quran (Koran) is the dictation of Allah's prescriptions through Prophet Muhammad and is believed to have updated and completed previous revelations Allah sent through earlier prophets.


Iman or Faith

Iman is the unshakable belief, without a shadow of doubt, arising out of knowledge and firm conviction, in:

A). the existence of one and only true God with all His attributes, (Qur'an 2 verses 2 and 284)

B). all the true Prophets of the past, Mohammad (P*) being the last Prophet, (Qur'an 2 Verse 284)

C). all the revealed unaltered Holy Books of God, (Qur'an 2 Verse284)

D). the angels of God, (Qur'an 2 Verse 284)

E). life after death and the Day of Judgment, (Qur'an 2 Verse 4)

F). fate (Qur'an 2 Verse2)

Note there are many more verses I could quote in addition to the above. But, if I know you well, I by now, I now the style you are used to, I need you to helo your own soul now. We in Islam have met your challenge, every way till sunday. Now you should fear the fire of Hell. Take your experience here to better your own life and improve others. Start from your own family. They are the first that must benefit from you.

Iman or Faith Previous Next

Iman is the unshakable belief, without a shadow of doubt, arising out of knowledge and firm conviction, in:

A). the existence of one and only true God with all His attributes,
B). all the true Prophets of the past, Mohammad (P*) being the last Prophet,
C). all the revealed unaltered Holy Books of God,
D). the angels of God,
E). life after death and the Day of Judgment,
F). fate



A) Faith in the existence of one and only true God with all His absolute attributes as described previously:


He must believe in Him whole heartedly and obey His commandments. Believing in God without any doubt and obeying His commandments without any hesitation, guides a person to follow the path that leads to eternal life and salvation.




B) Faith in all the true Prophets of the past, Mohammad (P*) being the last Prophet:


A Muslim must believe and accept all the true Prophets of God. He must not make distinction between any of His messengers. He must show the highest respect to each and every prophet of God, even when the followers of other Prophets do not show any respect to Prophet Mohammad (P*). You will not find a Muslim on the earth who will say one disrespectful word against Prophet Moses, Jesus (P*) or any other Prophet. Besides Christianity, Islam is the only religion on earth which accepts the miraculous birth of Prophet Jesus (P*) in its Holy Book. A Muslim must add "peace and blessings of God be upon him" after pronouncing the name of every Prophet. Muslims show the highest reverence to Moses (P*) and Jesus (P*). Unfortunately many of their followers have not been able to show respect to the Prophet of Islam.

Prophet Mohammad (P*) is the last of the prophets and there will be nor more Prophet till the Day of Judgment.




C)Faith in all the revealed unaltered Holy Books of God:


Holy Books of revealed religions are guidance from God to mankind. A Muslim must believe in all the original revelations of God to the earlier prophets.


The earlier revelations were not recorded by the Prophets properly. In later years they were mixed up with legends, false stories, rituals, and man-made laws. The earlier Holy Books did not have complete guidance for mankind. They were addressed only to a specific group of people of a specific period in time. They were also lost and were re-written from stories circulating in the communities. What we have today are not in the language of the Prophets. They all are translations.


A Muslim is obliged to believe in the existence of Holy Books from God in the past. All commandments and stories that agree with the accurately recorded and unaltered Holy Book of Holy Quran, is acceptable to him. The revealed unaltered Holy Book from God should be standard for determining the accuracy and authenticity of the contents of other revealed Holy Books.




D) Faith in the angels of God:


Angels are invisible creations of God, created from spirit. God conducts the affairs of the universe through them. They do not have any freedom of choice and are incapable of disobedience. In contrast to the angels, there is another invisible creation of God called Jinn. They are created from fire and have limited freedom of choice like the human. Satan belongs to them.




E) Faith in life after death & Day of Judgment:


A very firm and unshakable belief in life after death and Day of Judgment is the single most important factor that determines the behavior of a person in this life.


There is always extra effort and hardship on every person who wants to lead a righteous and just life on this earth. If a person is told that, on the "Day of Judgment", he will not be accountable for all his deed on this earth, will he care to undergo the hardship of a righteous and just life? If he is further told that someone else has already paid in advance for all his sins, will there be any limit to his unjust and immoral behavior? If one looks at the life of people around him, who do not believe in the accountability on the "Day of Judgment`, he will notice how immoral life these people lead and how unjust are their deed.


Many of the evils of the society stem from the belief that someone else has already paid in advance for all their sins that they already have committed and will commit in the future!
Every person who has firm faith in (1) life after death, (2) Day of Judgment, and (3) accountability for his deed in this life, has to try to live a righteous and just life. He will always try his best to avoid evils and be fair to others. Every pious and righteous person wants to please God. Anything that pleases God is good.


One day this world will end. There will be resurrection of the dead, followed by the Day of Judgment. People will be rewarded, forgiven or punished according to their life in this world and will end up in heaven or hell. The precise time and date of the end of the world is only known to God.



F) Faith in ultimate fate:

A Muslim must believe that everything in the universe that has happened in the past and that will happen in the future are within the knowledge of God and with His permission. We have a limited freedom of choice. Many things will depend on our choice. Whatever we shall choose and the results, good or bad, are already within the knowledge of God and He permits it to happen.

blabs787, bleating as usual. Either answer the question or shut up.

olabowale:

At your age, you can't do a research on Faith in God from Islamic perspective?

I asked a relevant question, it is your duty to either answer it or shut up. Why are you asking us questions too? At your age, cant you do a research on trinity urself instead of spamming the board?

olabowale:

What if you are one of the Berean Christians?

The Berean christians wont be digging into the quran for anything.

olabowale:

You would never have hit the scriptural books

What "scriptural" books?

olabowale:

From Wikipedia first: There definition of Islamic Iman

You are a complete disgrace . . . i ask for the meaning of FAITH in the quran and u're going to wikipedia?

what is the meaning of FAITH as defined clearly, explicitly, without any ambiguity IN the quran?

Surely if you so use the word it shld be in your "scriptural" books not so?

you're fraudulently mixing two things together . . . there is a clear difference between "belief" and "faith".

You can have a "belief" in Christ, the old testament prophets, miracles . . . and yet have NO FAITH.

How is this defined in the quran? That is all i ask and pls dont tell me to go "researching" . . . i will no longer entertain that hypocritical muslim game of trying to dodge questions by pushing it on the questioner.

@Davidylan:

I asked a relevant question, it is your duty to either answer it or shut up. Why are you asking us questions too? At your age, can't you do a research on trinity yourself instead of spamming the board?

I did. But what i came up with are many; The word Trinity does not occur in the pages of the Bible. How you can then defined the unknown beats me! Further the concept of 3 to equal 1 is very strange. The Old and New testaments verses do not support it. None of the Prophets ever hinted it. The Jews never knew it. This was the very reason they took jesus to be a fake and blaspamer. So they were determined to shame his soul by killing him on the cross.

The following Biblical Verses go against trinity: Check the first part of the 10 Commandments and then the NT's mark 12 verse 29. Now its your turn to tell me what you have done on faith or Belief  from the Pages of th Qur'an. Please quote verses. Then the whole nairaland will witness for you or for me. This is between you and me now, as people of different faiths, but still brothers from Adam and Eve. lol.


I can not but post the materials from the excellent human being. He was a former Christian. Proving the ahadith about the good people outside islam are always better people when they become Muslims. They have reason to do good; God!

                                    About Gary Miller, the author

Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) shows how we can establish true faith by setting standards of truth. He illustrates a simple but effective method of finding out the right direction in our search for truth.

G.R, Miller is a mathematician and a theologian. He was active in Christian missionary work at a particular point of his life but he soon began to discover many inconsistencies in the Bible. In 1978, he happened to read the Qur'an expecting that it, too, would contain a mixture of truth and falsehood.

He discovered to his amazement that the message of the Qur'an was precisely the same as the essence of truth that he had distilled from the Bible. He became a Muslim and since then has been active in giving public presentations on Islam including radio and television appearances. He is also the author of several articles and publications about Islam.

babs787:

In addition, without playing the game of dishonesty, you know that Paul kicked against most of the doctrines preached by OT prophets and even Jesus in which you could have seen some in those 10 commandments up.

Where are these "doctrines" Paul kicked against? It is not enough for cowards to make false claims without proof.

babs787:

In order not to deviate from the topic at hand. I leave you in the hands of my knowledgeable brother but would come in when I see you misrepresent biblical verses.

Start from understanding ur own quran . . . what is its definition of faith that u use so flippantly?
you hypocrites spend too much time on "biblical verses" . . . why is that?

olabowale:

@Davidylan:I did. But what i came up with are many; The word Trinity does not occur in the pages of the Bible. How you can then defined the unknown beats me! Further the concept of 3 to equal 1 is very strange. The Old and New testaments verses do not support it. None of the Prophets ever hinted it. The Jews never knew it. This was the very reason they took jesus to be a fake and blaspamer. So they were determined to shame his soul by killing him on the cross.

About to fraudulently dodge the question by changing topic?

olabowale:

I can not but post the materials from the excellent human being. He was a former Christian. Proving the ahadith about the good people outside islam are always better people when they become Muslims. They have reason to do good; God!

About Gary Miller, the author

Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) shows how we can establish true faith by setting standards of truth. He illustrates a simple but effective method of finding out the right direction in our search for truth.

G.R, Miller is a mathematician and a theologian. He was active in Christian missionary work at a particular point of his life but he soon began to discover many inconsistencies in the Bible. In 1978, he happened to read the Qur'an expecting that it, too, would contain a mixture of truth and falsehood.

He discovered to his amazement that the message of the Qur'an was precisely the same as the essence of truth that he had distilled from the Bible. He became a Muslim and since then has been active in giving public presentations on Islam including radio and television appearances. He is also the author of several articles and publications about Islam.

What a pile of garboil. All these trash and no definition of faith in the quran yet? could it be because the quran is shockingly silent on this word you hypocrites use so often?

Stop telling me about confused men, i need to hear what YOU as a muslim for the last few decades has to say about faith in the quran . . . have u never thought of it?

@Davidylan:

How is this defined in the quran? That is all i ask and please don't tell me to go "researching" . . . i will no longer entertain that hypocritical muslim game of trying to dodge questions by pushing it on the questioner.

The whole jibiti of Ijebu people is actually in your pocket. Just continue to dock with all your semantics. our conscience is surely aware of your deceitfulness.


                                                  Dilemma of Applying Reason

Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks, "WHY?" If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know "WHY?" When you explain it is sharp, he asks "WHY?" And so you explain, "in order to cut fruit," and he asks, "WHY?" And so it goes.

It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first.

What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards of proof and they take a look at their subjects and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.


                                                       
                                                                         Setting Standards

The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about the standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine. In particular I will apply this to the Qur'an.

Ask a thoughtful Christian why he is a Christian, and he will usually reply, "The miracle of the Resurrection." The basis for his belief being that about two thousand years ago a man died and he was raised from the dead. That is his miracle, his 'touchstone', because all else depends on that.

Ask a Muslim, "Well, what is your miracle? Why are you a Muslim? What is your miracle? Why are you a Muslim? Where is your miracle?" and the Muslim can go over and take his miracle off the shelf and hand it to you because his miracle is still with us today. It is the Qur'an; it is his 'touchstone'.

Sign of God

While all the Prophets have their signs, Moses had the competition with the magicians and the Pharaoh, Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and so on, one Sign was given to the last of the prophets. According to the Muslims, this is the Qur'an. And this one Sign is still with us. Does not that after all seem fair, that if prophethood is to end that the last prophet should bring something that stays with us so that, in fact, a Muslim who takes his religion seriously suffers no disadvantage to Muslims who lived fourteen centuries ago?

Those people who kept company with the Prophet had access to no more of the necessary information than we have today. They had the Qur'an. That was the sign for them. It is still a sign to us today, the same miracle.

Well, let us test the Qur'an. Suppose that if I say to a man, "I know your father." Probably he is going to examine the situation and see if it seems likely that I have met his father. If he is not convinced, he will start asking me questions like: "You know my father, you say, is he a tall man? Does he have curly hair? Does he wear glasses?," and so on. If I keep giving him the right answers to all these questions, pretty soon he is going to be convinced. "Well, I guess this man did meet my father like he said." You see the method.

The Big Bang Theory

Verses in the Qur'an claim that the author of Qur'an was present when the universe first appeared, when life first began billions of years ago.

We have a right to question this claim. We ask the author, "Well tell us something to prove to us that YOU were there when they world began, life began."

In reply to our challenge, the Qur'an contains a dumbfounding statement. It reads, "Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" (21:30)

(in the Qur'an, 'We' is used not to show plurality, that several Gods exist but rather as a sign of respect)

There are 3 key points in (21:30). First of all, it is the disbelievers who are mentioned as being those who would discover that the heavens and the earth were one piece and then parted and it is the DISBELIEVERS (non-Muslims) who will DISCOVER that all life came to be made from water.

Coincidentally, the universally accepted theory of 'the origin of the universe' is now the BIG BANG THEORY. It maintains that at one time ALL OF HEAVENS AND THE EARTH were one piece, the 'monoblock' as it is called. At a particular point in time, this 'monoblock' burst and it continues to expand. This is the origin of the universe we have today.

This is a recent confirmation.

Oh Lord, have you people nothing upstairs that you have to resort to cutting and pasting? Even you alhaji?

[size=14pt]What is FAITH according to the quran?[/size]

This is a recent confirmation.

The Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded only a few years ago to those who confirmed the Big Bang Theory origin of the universe. It was only 200 years ago that Leeuwenhoek and others perfected the microscope and discovered for the first time that living cells are composed of 80% water.

The above information which was scientifically confirmed only in the last 2 centuries, can be found in the Qur'an which originated 14 centuries ago! Could it then have been written by an ordinary man or can it only be the work of God?

The verse above, (21:30) states that disbelievers will scientifically prove the Big Bang Theory and that living cells are made of water -- Those Nobel Prize winners and the Dutchman who invented the microscope were not muslims. And yet they confirmed the vital statement that at one time, the universe was one piece, that life was made from water, just as verse says,

"Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" (21:30)

Does this not prove that the author of the Qur'an, has indeed met the challenge, "Was He there when the universe began, when life began."

what is the relevance of all these nonsense? How does it answer the question?

[size=14pt]What is FAITH as defined by the quran?[/size]

If its not there just say so and stop decieving urself.

Taking a Stand

Everyone must be committed to something. You have to put your foot down some place. It is impossible to be neutral at all times. There has been a point of reference in the life of any thinking individual. You have to take a stand somewhere. The question, of course, is to put your foot down in the right place. Since there is no such thing as a proof of a proof and so on, in order to find the right place to put one's foot down, to take a stand, we have to search and find that place and it is by a method that I hope to illustrate here.

It is a question of finding a point of convergence. You see, we search for truth in many places and we begin to know that we are succeeding in finding the truth if all our different paths start to converge; they start to come together at the same point.

If we are examining a book, looking for evidence of divine origin, and we are led to Islam, this is one path. If at the same time, we examining the words of all those who were called prophets and we find ourselves led to Islam, we have a firmly grounded basis for belief. We started looking for truth in two different places and found ourselves going down the path headed for the same destination.

No one ever proves all things. We have to stop at some point being satisfied with our standards as I have mentioned earlier. The point is, in order to take a stand and to be sure it is in the right place, we want to examine all the evidence around us and see where does it lead us and anticipate this point of convergence; to say it looks like all things are pointing to this place. We go to that place and then look at the data around us to see if it fits into place. Does it now make sense? Are we standing in the right place?

The Expanding Heavens

Let me first show more of our examination of the Qur'an, and then an examination of some words of prophets to find this point of convergence. In Chapter 51, verse 47, it is mentioned that the heavens are expanding. As I mentioned earlier, this is in connection with the 'Big Bang' origin of the universe, as it is usually called, and it was in 1973 that the Nobel prize was awarded to three men who were confirming that, after all, the universe is expanding.

The comments of Muslims over the centuries on this verse which speaks of the heavens doing exactly that is very interesting. The wisest among them stated that the words are very clear, that the heavens are expanding, but they could not imagine how that could be so. But they were content to leave the words as they were, to say: "Allah knows best."

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The City of Iram

The Qur'an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of Iram has been unknown to History, so unknown that even Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur'an as being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a city.

In 1973, the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay tablets ever assembled. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus contains more clay tablets that are more than four thousand years old than all the other tablets combined from all other sites.

Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National Geographic of 1978 which confirms that in those tablets the city of Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the people of Iram. So here in 1973, comes confirmation of the fact that, after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it was. How did it find its way into the Qur'an, we might ask?

Those Muslims who may have offered their comments, trying to explain away this reference that they were uncomfortable with, were outsmarted by the author of the Qur'an. They were those who would attempt to outsmart the author of the Qur'an. Primarily, their activity would involve trying to produce the evidence that the author of this book had a primitive understanding of the world around us.

The Smallest Matter

For example, there is a word which is translated today usually in Arabic as Zarrah. This is usually translated as 'atom' and it is usually thought of in Arabic as being the smallest item available at one time. Perhaps, the Arabs thought it was an ant or a grain of dust. Today, the word is usually translated as 'atom'.

Those who would outsmart the author of the Qur'an have insisted that, well, the atom is not after all the smallest piece of matter because in this century it has been discovered that even the atom is made of still smaller pieces of matter. Is it them possible to outsmart the author who chose to use this word? Well, there is an interesting verse, in chapter 10, verse 61, which speaks of items the size of a zarrah, (atom) or smaller. There is no possibility that on this subject someone is going to say a new discovery has outdated the words of the Qur'an on the issue of the size of matter or the ultimate particles. The verse talks about items the size of a zarrah (atom) or smaller. [hence, it IS written in the Qur'an that an atom IS NOT the smallest particle!]


Forgiveness

Speaking of outsmarting the author of the Qur'an, the Islamic point of view is that when a man embraces Islam, his past is forgiven from the very beginning. This has been the invitation to Islam: come to Islam and all is forgiven from the past.

But consider this. There is only one enemy of Muhammad, peace be upon him, who is mentioned by name in the Qur'an: one Abu Lahab. In a short chapter of this book, he is condemned to punishment for his sins.

As it happens, the man himself was alive for many years after this revelation. He could therefore have finished Islam very easily. He needed only to go to the Muslims to announce his conversion. They had in their hands the revelation which said that this man is doomed to punishment. He could have gone to Muslims and say: "I accept Islam, am I forgiven or not?"

He could have confused them so much as to finish this small movement because he would have been pointing out to them that they were now in confusion. The policy was instant forgiveness of the past, but their own revealed scripture announced that he was not forgiven. As it was, Abu Lahab died without accepting Islam.

Yup, usual islamic game . . . drown out their inadequacy with a barrage of meaningless plagiarised posts off google.

Predictions

In fact, the Qur'an confidently predicted a number of things only a few years before they came to pass. The fall of the Persian Empire, for example, was predicted in spite of the fact that it had just suffered a serious military reverse. The evidence was all to the contrary. But in the chapter entitled Rom, the fall of the Persian Empire who were recently victors over the Romans was predicted.

When all the Muslims in the world could meet in one room, the revelations were already discussing their future successes. In confidence, they were planning for the day when they would be in charge of the city where they were forced at that time to hide for their very lives.

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                                                           Evidence of Divine Origin

Some people may like to find any number of things in the Qur'an. But an honest method in examining this book, looking for evidence of the Divine origin, is to take things at their value, to look for things that are clear and to look in those places where we are invited to look. Remember the passage that I quoted earlier: "Have not the disbelievers seen, " This a common phrase of the Qur'an: "O Man, Have you not seen." The invitation is to examine the evidence in these places. We are doing the sensible thing if we examine the words used to look for the doubted meaning and to find evidence of the Divine origin.

Each one of us is an expert on something. One does not have to have a degree in a particular subject to decide that now, "I can take my expertise to the Qur'an and see what I can find." We all now something for some from our own experience and life.

I heard a story, several years ago in Toronto, of man who was given the Qur'an to read. The man was a member of the merchant marines who spent his life on the sea. When he read a verse in the Qur'an describing the wave on the ocean, "waves within waves and the darkness between," he was surprised because the description was just what he knew the situation to be. When he returned the Qur'an to the man who gave it to him to read, he asked him (because he was completely ignorant of the origins of Islam): "This Muhammad, was he a sailor?" Well, of course, he was quite surprised to know that the man spent his life in the desert. So he had to ask himself: "From where did he get this knowledge of what looks like on a stormy sea?"

We all know something that we can be confident of and if we can turn to the Qur'an to read what it says about that subject, we are asking for confirmation of our belief in the Divine origin of the book.

The Two Phenomena

A friend of mine from the University of Toronto, had the experience of dealing with a man who was doing his doctorate in psychology. He chose as his subject: 'The Efficiency of Group Discussion'.

He suggested a number od criteria as to what constitutes an efficient discussion. He graphed the process; that is, he achieved a measure of efficiency of all groups in their discussions according to an index by his system. On his graph he indicated the progress made by the discussion groups of various sizes.

The interesting thing that happened which he did not expect to find when he began his project was that, while there were some differences between the size of any given group and how well they did in discussions, he was surprised to find that groups of two were completely off his scale! In other words, when people sit down to discuss something, they were so much more efficient than any other size of group that it went completely off his scale of measurement.

When my friend heard about this, something went on at the back of his mind. My friend, being a Muslim, thought there was something familiar here about this idea. The psychology researcher was not a Muslim. He was debating with himself on changing the topic of his thesis. Should he call it 'The Phenomenon of Two' or 'The Two Phenomena? He was SO surprised at his discovery.

Meanwhile, my friend found that there is a verse in the Qur'an, and he found it for himself on the same night, which speaks on discussions and the size of groups and how efficient they are. And maybe we should not be surprised to find that it is the groups that are two in numbers that do the best in achieving results. The main verse in the Qur'an reads, concerning discussion groups, that when discussing the Qur'an one should sit alone and reflect on its meaning or discuss it in groups of two.

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Use and Mention of Words

For myself, as I said everyone knows something for sure or has an interest and experience in life; my interest is in mathematics and logic. There is a verse in the Qur'an which says:

"This a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded." (11:1)

Which tells me that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information.

This directed my attention to a particular mathematical subject, a logical subject, and I examined the Qur'an to see if I could find something of what I knew to be the case.

A revolution in logic has occurred in the last one hundred years, primarily over the difference between use and mention of words. A structure of logic seemed to be in danger of collapsing about a hundred years ago because it came to the attention of the people who studied these matters that the structure was not quite sound. The issue involved 'self-reference' and the use and the mention of words which I will explain briefly.

Aristotle's law of the 'excluded middle' was the statement that every statement is either true false. About a hundred years ago, somebody pointed out that the law of the excluded middle is a statement and is therefore not a law after all. It could just as well be false as well as true.

This was a tangled knot for the logicians to untie until they came to understand the difference between the use and the mention of a word.

When we use a word, we consider its meaning. When we mention a word we are discussing the word itself. If I said Toronto is a large city, I mean Toronto, that place, is a large cit. If I say Toronto has seven letters, I am talking about the word 'Toronto'. In the first case I used the word and in the second I mentioned the word. You see distinction.

what has all the above to do with the question:

[size=18pt]What is the definition of FAITH in the quran?[/size]

Jesus and Adam

Connecting these ideas and the idea that the Qur'an composed of verses that are perfected and then expounded for us, consider the verse which says:

"The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59)

It is very clear that what we have in the statement is an equation. This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. But more than that, I got to consider the use of the mention of words.

The words are used clearly enough. Jesus is like Adam and by Jesus and Adam, we mean those two men. But what about the mention of the words? Was the author aware of the fact that if we were considering the words as words themselves, this sentence also read that 'Jesus' is something like 'Adam'. Well, they are not spelt with the same letters, how can they be alike in this revelation? The only answer came to me fairly quickly and I took a look at the index of the Qur'an.

The index of the Qur'an has been made available only since 1945. This book was the result of years of work by a man and his students who assembled a book which lists every word in the Qur'an and where it can be found.

So, when we look up the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. So, following up on this idea, I continued to examine the index looking for every case where something was set up as an equation, where the likeness of something was said to be the likeness of some other thing. And in every case, it works. You have to example a verse which reads:

"The likeness of this who reject our signs is as the likeness of the dog." (7:176)

Well, the phrase is Arabic for 'the people who reject our signs' could be found in the Qur'an exactly five times. And so is the Arabic word for 'the dog' (al-kalb). And there are several instances of exactly the same occurrence.

It was some months after I found this for myself that a friend of mine, who is continuing this investigation with me, made a suggestion that there are also some places in the Qur'an where one thing is said to be not like another thing.

As soon as he mentioned this up to me, we both went for the index and had a quick look at several places where on thing is said to be not like another thing and counted their occurrence in the Qur'an. We were surprise and maybe should not have been to find that, after all, they do not match up. But an interesting thing does happen. For example, the Qur'an makes it very clear in the verse that trade is not like interest. The two words will be found six times for on and seven for the other. And so it is in every other case.

When one thing is said to be not like another, they over for a difference of one time. It would be five of one and four of the other, or seven of one and eight of another.