well i think the best thing to do is to pray for him and believe that God will reveal himself to him, cos as a person there is little or nothing you can do to change him

Friend, pray and believe God is going to revive your friend. Don't worry about when this shall come to pass, for God Himself is the controller of time.
Thanks.
From Timothy.

are u sure its your friend? give him ten reasons for believing

Well said to all parties but I think the time has come for us to take a more systematic approach to this discourse.
quoteFirst I want to note that the only place you find christians united is when you try to question the existence of God and after that is over they just go ahead and tear at each other until they can form at least 30000. I[b] just posted in a thread about a pastor that drowned himself while trying to do baptism which is a very fundamental part of christianity and just there the catholics start going at the other denominations as to how it should be done.[/b]With your permission my friends with questions lets start from inside the religions and then move outwards towards the existence of the Supreme being and I hope you Christian brothers agree.
If every party agree maybe one side should take the initiative and start with a very very good foundation which for the christians and muslims which is do you christians and muslims agree that your holy books are AMBIGUOUS?     

Very good observations.

@ poster:- As many have said; “pray for your friend”.

I do not like arguements, especially when it has to do with God or things about God. As human beings, we tend to get angry or impatient when a friend or someone we care about doesn’t believe in God but we forget that it is not about us but about God. When we force God or our belief on the person, we are making it about us; hence we tend to take the glory that would have been given to God. Be warned though, that by praying for your friend, it doesn’t mean he would automatically come to believe in God immediately, it can only come at the timing of God.

Don’t forget that it is actually God that orchestrates the repentance of man and those that come to him (Romans 8:29-30). Personally, I would say that salvation is not for everybody; It is only those God has called that would believe and repent. John 6:44 says no one can come to Christ or come to believe and repent except God actually draws him/her. He shows mercy to whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills; at one point, Saul did not believe in Christ, until God decided to show mercy on him; he revealed himself to him, changed his heart of stone, called him to repentance and sent him on an assignment.

When Pharaoh refused to believe in God, it was God that planned it; for the scripture tells pharaoh “for this reason, I raised you up: so that I may display my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (Romans 9:16)

You might preach all you can to your friend, argue with him till day break, but unless it’s the will of God and timing for God, he will still have a hardened heart, so pray that God shows mercy on him by revealing himself to him, and pray too for yourself for strength/will power to stand in the face of his criticisms and arguments.

Finally, be careful that he does not take you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human reasoning, based on science or elemental forces of the world and not based on Christ (Col. 2:8a/b). If you believe, you believe, pray he doesn’t sway you from your faith and pray for him too.

Pray, pray and pray again, when you are done praying, get down on your knees and pray some more.

monshege:

@ poster:- As many have said; “pray for your friend”.

I do not like arguements, especially when it has to do with God or things about God. As human beings, we tend to get angry or impatient when a friend or someone we care about doesn’t believe in God but we forget that it is not about us but about God. When we force God or our belief on the person, we are making it about us; hence we tend to take the glory that would have been given to God. Be warned though, that by praying for your friend, it doesn’t mean he would automatically come to believe in God immediately, it can only come at the timing of God.
Don’t forget that it is actually God that orchestrates the repentance of man and those that come to him (Romans 8:29-30). Personally, I would say that salvation is not for everybody; It is only those God has called that would believe and repent. John 6:44 says no one can come to Christ or come to believe and repent except God actually draws him/her. He shows mercy to whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills; at one point, Saul did not believe in Christ, until God decided to show mercy on him; he revealed himself to him, changed his heart of stone, called him to repentance and sent him on an assignment.

When Pharaoh refused to believe in God, it was God that planned it; for the scripture tells pharaoh “for this reason, I raised you up: so that I may display my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (Romans 9:16)

You might preach all you can to your friend, argue with him till day break, but unless it’s the will of God and timing for God, he will still have a hardened heart, so pray that God shows mercy on him by revealing himself to him, and pray too for yourself for strength/will power to stand in the face of his criticisms and arguments.

Finally, be careful that he does not take you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human reasoning, based on science or elemental forces of the world and not based on Christ (Col. 2:8a/b). If you believe, you believe, pray he doesn’t sway you from your faith and pray for him too.

Pray, pray and pray again, when you are done praying, get down on your knees and pray some more.

Ichie Monshege

Ekene m ghi O!

But, this your post brings a totally new twist to this issue.
Look at me for example, I no longer believe in god and christianity nor any religion. Are you saying it is God that hardend my heart??
Are you saying God hardened the heart of pharoah, and killed off over 1000 egyptian horsemen in the red sea just to please himself and show his powers??
Or the muslims heart is hardend by God??

Please, I would love for you to educate us, cos you have confounded most of us with your post.

P.s; Note the red, highlighted portions of your inserted quote.

Thanks

Okija_juju:

Ichie Monshege

Ekene m ghi O!

But, this your post brings a totally new twist to this issue.
Look at me for example, I no longer believe in god and christianity nor any religion. Are you saying it is God that hardend my heart??
Are you saying God hardened the heart of pharoah, and killed off over 1000 egyptian horsemen in the red sea just to please himself and show his powers??
Or the muslims heart is hardend by God??

Please, I would love for you to educate us, because you have confounded most of us with your post.

P.s; Note the red, highlighted portions of your inserted quote.

Thanks

The mistake we make sometimes is using the things of the world to try to understand spiritual things or things about God. If i may even go further, i may say understanding the things of God is not for everyone just as i said that salvation is not for everyone.

In my opinion, it is good we start off not believing because the best believers are those who actually know what they believe in, you cant believe in something except you know about it and know what is it about that thing that makes you wanna believe. so perhaps, you have chosen not to believe, because you dont truly know everything you wanna/need to know about God or christianity. You may have chosen not to believe because of a fellow human being, because of what you see, hear or believe you know about God, but based on my belief (since it is aligned with your question), God is in charge of everything and that includes what you choose to believe or not

Believing is about God, God is all about the bible, and the bible says that no one can come to Christ or come to believe/repent except God draws him. In the same way, he shows mercy to whom he wants and hardens the heart of whom he chooses (O bu m dere?).. Based on that explanation, if your heart is hardened, it is because God allowed it

If i start explaining, you may not understand, but the beautiful thing about life is that we have been given wills; we have willpower where we chose to do what we decide or want to do. I believe in God, and as a beliver, i chose to believe in what has been laid out for me. You do not believe in God because you chose not to; you chose not to believe because you have the will not to, however you are not the boss of your own self (My take). the creator is the boss of you and even though you have the will, he still has greater authority on you and chooses to either allow you enforce your will or withstand it. You know how i know there is a higher power? because there are many things I cannot control (circumstances beyond my control is what we call it). If i knew everything about life or that needs to be known or had power over everything then yeah i will believe that there is no God, but since I know i am not the highest authority, i believe there is an authority over me to whom i respond to.

since what you are questioning are biblical sayings, i would use the bible to explain the bible; human beings are likened to clay and God is likened to the potter, the potter chooses to mold the clay into what he wants. I dont know if you played with clay as a kid but when you get the clay and mold it, you hardly ever end up taking whatever you made into your house. you mold the clay into some sort of animal or pot/cup and at the end of the day, you dismantle it (I did). we do that because we have control over the clay, in the same manner, God has control over us; he chooses to do with us as he wills. you might say as i have heard a lot of people say "that is wicked, that is unfair, why, why, why, " but that reasoning was also explained in the bible "and what if God desiring to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? and what if, he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand". He does these things to display his power and glory because we are bunch of unbelievers;he's probably thinking, if the only way they would understand is through destruction, then so be it, i will endure the people that would be lost but by these people dying, people will come to believe (My take).
Pharoah: Pharoah is a biblical example, and based on the biblical explanation for that incident, God hardened the heart of Pharoah to display his power and so that his name will be proclaimed in all the earth. at least today, wherever the story of pharoah and the Isrealites are told, the name of God is brought into it, hence his purpose has been achieved.

i believe in God and not in religion, i believe in having a relationship with God but not in religion, I believe in wanting to know more but not in religion

Okija_juju, O bu m dere?

monshege:

@ poster:- As many have said; “pray for your friend”.

I do not like arguements, especially when it has to do with God or things about God. As human beings, we tend to get angry or impatient when a friend or someone we care about doesn’t believe in God but we forget that it is not about us but about God. When we force God or our belief on the person, we are making it about us; hence we tend to take the glory that would have been given to God. Be warned though, that by praying for your friend, it doesn’t mean he would automatically come to believe in God immediately, it can only come at the timing of God.

Don’t forget that it is actually God that orchestrates the repentance of man and those that come to him (Romans 8:29-30). Personally, I would say that salvation is not for everybody; It is only those God has called that would believe and repent. John 6:44 says no one can come to Christ or come to believe and repent except God actually draws him/her. He shows mercy to whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills; at one point, Saul did not believe in Christ, until God decided to show mercy on him; he revealed himself to him, changed his heart of stone, called him to repentance and sent him on an assignment.

When Pharaoh refused to believe in God, it was God that planned it; for the scripture tells pharaoh “for this reason, I raised you up: so that I may display my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (Romans 9:16)

You might preach all you can to your friend, argue with him till day break, but unless it’s the will of God and timing for God, he will still have a hardened heart, so pray that God shows mercy on him by revealing himself to him, and pray too for yourself for strength/will power to stand in the face of his criticisms and arguments.

Finally, be careful that he does not take you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human reasoning, based on science or elemental forces of the world and not based on Christ (Col. 2:8a/b). If you believe, you believe, pray he doesn’t sway you from your faith and pray for him too.

Pray, pray and pray again, when you are done praying, get down on your knees and pray some more.

you sef which church you dey go?  and your point is no wonder there are over 30,000 sects(religions) in christianity each knocking heads and fighting with each other and postulating that their sects alone knows the ultimate truth. the fact still remains that any body can chery pick what ever makes sense to him from the bible and say that its the holy spirit that told him. there is no answer in the bible if there is they would''nt be over 30,000(religions) sects in christianity. so many of the sects even have nothing in common with each other. but they all draw their inspirations from the bible and each are quick to quote and defend their beliefs with valid and coherent points and passages from the bible, their is simple no answer even in the bible cos if there were, there would''nt be over 30, 000 sects most of which have nothing in common with each other. apologist will forever be explaining while copy and pasting from the bible but that has resulted into nothing and the division keeps occuring on a daily basis.

monshege:

The mistake we make sometimes is using the things of the world to try to understand spiritual things or things about God. If i may even go further, i may say understanding the things of God is not for everyone just as i said that salvation is not for everyone.

In my opinion, it is good we start off not believing because the best believers are those who actually know what they believe in, you can't believe in something except you know about it and know what is it about that thing that makes you want to believe. so perhaps, you have chosen not to believe, because you don't truly know everything you want to/need to know about God or christianity. You may have chosen not to believe because of a fellow human being, because of what you see, hear or believe you know about God, but based on my belief (since it is aligned with your question), God is in charge of everything and that includes what you choose to believe or not

Believing is about God, God is all about the bible, and the bible says that no one can come to Christ or come to believe/repent except God draws him. In the same way, he shows mercy to whom he wants and hardens the heart of whom he chooses (O bu m dere?).. Based on that explanation, if your heart is hardened, it is because God allowed it

If i start explaining, you may not understand, but the beautiful thing about life is that we have been given wills; we have willpower where we chose to do what we decide or want to do. I believe in God, and as a beliver, i chose to believe in what has been laid out for me. You do not believe in God because you chose not to; you chose not to believe because you have the will not to, however you are not the boss of your own self (My take). the creator is the boss of you and even though you have the will, he still has greater authority on you and chooses to either allow you enforce your will or withstand it. You know how i know there is a higher power? because there are many things I cannot control (circumstances beyond my control is what we call it). If i knew everything about life or that needs to be known or had power over everything then yeah i will believe that there is no God, but since I know i am not the highest authority, i believe there is an authority over me to whom i respond to.

since what you are questioning are biblical sayings, i would use the bible to explain the bible; human beings are likened to clay and God is likened to the potter, the potter chooses to mold the clay into what he wants. I don't know if you played with clay as a kid but when you get the clay and mold it, you hardly ever end up taking whatever you made into your house. you mold the clay into some sort of animal or pot/cup and at the end of the day, you dismantle it (I did). we do that because we have control over the clay, in the same manner, God has control over us; he chooses to do with us as he wills. you might say as i have heard a lot of people say "that is wicked, that is unfair, why, why, why, " but that reasoning was also explained in the bible "and what if God desiring to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? and what if, he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand". He does these things to display his power and glory because we are bunch of unbelievers;he's probably thinking, if the only way they would understand is through destruction, then so be it, i will endure the people that would be lost but by these people dying, people will come to believe (My take).
Pharoah: Pharoah is a biblical example, and based on the biblical explanation for that incident, God hardened the heart of Pharoah to display his power and so that his name will be proclaimed in all the earth. at least today, wherever the story of pharoah and the Isrealites are told, the name of God is brought into it, hence his purpose has been achieved.

i believe in God and not in religion, i believe in having a relationship with God but not in religion, I believe in wanting to know more but not in religion

Okija_juju, O bu m dere?

chie no be small thing ohhh. every body with him own explanation. all i know is that if there is a god he would'nt need men like you to explain his positions on his behalf , he would do it himself.

monshege:

The mistake we make sometimes is using the things of the world to try to understand spiritual things or things about God. If i may even go further, i may say understanding the things of God is not for everyone just as i said that salvation is not for everyone.

Monshege, We live in a physical world, why are you so concerned about the supernatural?? You say salvation is not for everybody, so I guess some people were already destined for damnation even before they were born, is this what you are implying??

monshege:

In my opinion, it is good we start off not believing because the best believers are those who actually know what they believe in, you can't believe in something except you know about it and know what is it about that thing that makes you want to believe.

This right here is sound logic. I cant argue with this. I started off not believing in gravity, through studies and science, I have now come to the understanding of what it is all about, I am a believer. Now we talk about God, creator of the universe, overseer of all mankind, wealthy beyond imagination, has a son, and a spirit, and a whole platoon of angels at his disposal. The list of accolades are just endless. How do I believe in something that there is no evidence of.

monshege:

so perhaps, you have chosen not to believe, because you don't truly know everything you want to/need to know about God or christianity. You may have chosen not to believe because of a fellow human being, because of what you see, hear or believe you know about God, but based on my belief (since it is aligned with your question), God is in charge of everything and that includes what you choose to believe or not

I have chosen not to believe because there is no evidence of his existence and the attributes which I hear are characteristic of him are not evidence in everyday living. For an all loving God, we seem to have too many bloodshed, unnecessary loss of lives, unwaranted fatal accidents, immeasurable natural disasters, abundant diseases and plagues, famines, e.t.c. No God who really loves he creations would let such predicaments befall them on a daily basis.

monshege:

Believing is about God, God is all about the bible, and the bible says that no one can come to Christ or come to believe/repent except God draws him. In the same way, he shows mercy to whom he wants and hardens the heart of whom he chooses (O bu m dere?).. Based on that explanation, if your heart is hardened, it is because God allowed it.

So I guess if you are right ad there really is a God and rapture does occur, is this going to be a good defense for me?? So are you saying that God allows for everything that happens to me?? like when I had the accident that almost killed me and cost me over 10,000 dollars and still is, in medical bills, he allowed for it?? he allowed me to stop believing in him even when he knows my not believing in him would lead me straight to hell?? _{(Nna na wah o!)} .

monshege:

In my opinion, it is good we start off not believing because the best believers are those who actually know what they believe in, you can't believe in something except you know about it and know what is it about that thing that makes you want to believe. so perhaps, you have chosen not to believe, because you don't truly know everything you want to/need to know about God or christianity. You may have chosen not to believe because of a fellow human being, because of what you see, hear or believe you know about God, but based on my belief (since it is aligned with your question), God is in charge of everything and that includes what you choose to believe or not
Believing is about God, God is all about the bible, and the bible says that no one can come to Christ or come to believe/repent except God draws him. In the same way, he shows mercy to whom he wants and hardens the heart of whom he chooses (O bu m dere?).. Based on that explanation, if your heart is hardened, it is because God allowed it

If i start explaining, you may not understand, but the beautiful thing about life is that we have been given wills; we have willpower where we chose to do what we decide or want to do. I believe in God, and as a beliver, i chose to believe in what has been laid out for me. You do not believe in God because you chose not to; you chose not to believe because you have the will not to, however you are not the boss of your own self (My take). the creator is the boss of you and even though you have the will, he still has greater authority on you and chooses to either allow you enforce your will or withstand it. You know how i know there is a higher power? because there are many things I cannot control (circumstances beyond my control is what we call it). If i knew everything about life or that needs to be known or had power over everything then yeah i will believe that there is no God, but since I know i am not the highest authority, i believe there is an authority over me to whom i respond to.

I think you just contradicted yourself in the post. How can you say we have "will", according to dictionary;

Will
power to decide: the power to make decisions
Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

and you still say a higher being has authority, which according to the dictionary explanation means;


Authority
1. right to command: the right or power to enforce rules or give orders

Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

in the same post. It's like saying I have the "will" to do whatever God will make me to do.

This is so confusing.

monshege:

since what you are questioning are biblical sayings, i would use the bible to explain the bible; human beings are likened to clay and God is likened to the potter, the potter chooses to mold the clay into what he wants. I don't know if you played with clay as a kid but when you get the clay and mold it, you hardly ever end up taking whatever you made into your house. you mold the clay into some sort of animal or pot/cup and at the end of the day, you dismantle it (I did). we do that because we have control over the clay, in the same manner, God has control over us; he chooses to do with us as he wills. you might say as i have heard a lot of people say "that is wicked, that is unfair, why, why, why, " but that reasoning was also explained in the bible "and what if God desiring to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? and what if, he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand". He does these things to display his power and glory because we are bunch of unbelievers;he's probably thinking

Do you hear how this sounds?? Try reading it again. We are talking about humans o!! Not effigies, not robots, not puppets, not zombies. Humans with brains, that can think for themsleves, feel pain, have emotions, e.t.c.
And a supreme being that supposedly created us in his loving kindness and in his image would deem it fit to "dismantle" us at his will. Or pour down his wrath on us. To prove what??
You just painted God to be a dude who just sits there picking off his less favorite creations at random using different techniques.

Example.

God; O! look at New Orleans. I think they dont know what my wrath feels like. How about I use a hurricane and wipe them off.

or

God; Hey wouldnt it be cool to dismantle my creations in Indonesia. Hmm! How about I submerge the whole Island in water.

WOW!! (Nwanna, does this sound like what a God would do!)

, if the only way they would understand is through destruction, then so be it, i will endure the people that would be lost but by these people dying, people will come to believe (My take).

So I guess its like divide and rule tactic huh!! Kill some to get some.

monshege:

Pharoah: Pharoah is a biblical example, and based on the biblical explanation for that incident, God hardened the heart of Pharoah to display his power and so that his name will be proclaimed in all the earth. at least today, wherever the story of pharoah and the Isrealites are told, the name of God is brought into it, hence his purpose has been achieved.

So you are saying that the egyptians were an acceptable sacrifice in Gods eyes just to make his name known, is that it??
So its like Yaradua killing off the Niger Deltans just to make his name remembered when ever the word iger Delta is mentioned. DAMN!!

monshege:

I believe in God and not in religion, i believe in having a relationship with God but not in religion, I believe in wanting to know more but not in religion

So if you dont believe in religion, are you saying any religion is good as long as your ultimate target is God??

monshege:

Okija_juju, O bu m dere?

Ajuju!! Onwe onye ozo ghi na ya nor?? Or ghi de.

To drive my point home.

In the bible, according to the book of Genesis, God created the world, Adam & Eve inclusive. It was beautiful.

Why did he place that bloody tree in the garden.

It's like an earthly father leaving a two year old in a room with a loaded pistol at his/her reach and actually sits back and watch the child pick up the gun, point it at his/her head _{(still doing nothing to stop the child)} and watch the child pull the trigger and say it was the childs fault. _{Nigger Please (I feel insulted)}
You say he controls our actions, he sees everything, He knows everything.

The obvious question is why did he let them eat it knowing the consequences thereof, why create the devil that he knew would one day be a traitor?? Why didnt he stop Eve from eating the fruit of even Adam fron eating the fruit. Why didnt he destroy Adam and Eve _{(since they were now corrupt)} and create brand new humans _{(No harm, no foul)} .

The questions are so many if anybody feels like it I will press on.


The truth is that there is no God, and even if there is one, he prolly doesnt give a damn about us humans. Period.

Okija_juju:

Why did he place that bloody tree in the garden.

this is a very funny and absurd question. The goal of a school is to educate a child and make him progress to the next level, why place a tough exam before him?

Okija_juju:

The obvious question is why did he let them eat it knowing the consequences thereof, why create the devil that he knew would one day be a traitor?? Why didnt he stop Eve from eating the fruit of even Adam fron eating the fruit. Why didnt he destroy Adam and Eve _{(since they were now corrupt)} and create brand new humans _{(No harm, no foul)} .

why didnt your teacher write your exam for you?

Okija_juju:

The truth is that there is no God, and even if there is one, he prolly doesnt give a damn about us humans. Period.

choose one position pls . . . there is no God . . . uhmm wait ok he does exist but He doesnt care about us . . .

which one is your choice?

Abeg like i always say, its not by force to read the bible . . . if you think God doesnt exist why do you even bother to respond to religious posts? Isnt that in itself a contradiction? I see too many athiests struggling so hard to rubbish the bible . . . one would have thot they wouldnt care about such a book they consider full of fables.

tisk! tisk! tisk!

David the artful dodger.

You skimmed through my post, picked the passages to which you could easily employ your rhetorics and conviniently disposed the rest.

Why not destroy adam and eve (the corrut prototype) and create new ones??

Okija_juju:

tisk! tisk! tisk!

David the artful dodger.

You skimmed through my post, picked the passages to which you could easily employ your rhetorics and conviniently disposed the rest.

Why not destroy adam and eve (the corrut prototype) and create new ones??

Stupid and false assertion. I tackled the MOST IMPORTANT and ONLY questions on your post. What else did i miss?

Dodging what? Suddenly i expose your post and so-called questions for the harebrained silliness they are and now i'm an artfull dodger?

Your main premise was this - why did God allow an avenue for sin in the garden? Why didnt he just make it in such a way that the devil wouldnt even exist to tempt them . . .

To which i ask a very VALID question - why didnt your own teachers just pass you to the next class without any exam?

Now you've come back with another subtle but frankly silly question - Why not destroy adam and eve (the corrut prototype) and create new ones??

to which i answer with yet more questions - why didnt your teachers just expel every student who failed at least one subject in school and recruit more intelligent ones?

Where are the athiests who can at least ask cogent questions?

davidylan:

Stupid and false assertion. I tackled the MOST IMPORTANT and ONLY questions on your post. What else did i miss?

Dodging what? Suddenly i expose your post and so-called questions for the harebrained silliness they are and now i'm an artfull dodger?

Your main premise was this - why did God allow an avenue for sin in the garden? Why didnt he just make it in such a way that the devil wouldnt even exist to tempt them . . .

To which i ask a very VALID question - why didnt your own teachers just pass you to the next class without any exam?

Now you've come back with another subtle but frankly silly question - Why not destroy adam and eve (the corrut prototype) and create new ones??

to which i answer with yet more questions - why didnt your teachers just expel every student who failed at least one subject in school and recruit more intelligent ones?

Where are the athiests who can at least ask cogent questions?

So you in other words saying, the tree in the garden (which according to the bible is the cause of sin was an appropiate test for his new creations). A loaded gun is an acceptable test of obedience/restraint for a child. That test cost us all the troubles that abound in the world today. _{(according to your bible)}. I am only comparing the accounts as written in the bible of the origin of sin and the image of a loving God as portrayed in the bible.

The thing I have noticed about you is that, you have crated out a nifty approach to evading or basically deviating from a topic, using understated mockery to demean those to whom you are responding to.

Well it is quite obvious that I am not going to be able to have a civilized debate with you on this topic so I have decided not to indulge you further tonight.

Okija_juju:

So you in other words saying, the tree in the garden (which according to the bible is the cause of sin was an appropiate test for his new creations).

Lets ask the question this way . . . are you the one who tells your teacher what is appropriate for a test?

Okija_juju:

A loaded gun is an acceptable test of obedience/restraint for a child.

Now even you know that is a stupid analogy.

Okija_juju:

That test cost us all the troubles that abound in the world today.

More evidence of confusion. How can that test be the cause of all your trouble when you dont believe the God that set the test even exists? If you believe that the test is your problem then why is it so hard to believe that the same God shed His own blood on the cross as the antidote to failing that test?

Take one position hypocrite, its either the God who set that test exists or not . . . you cant disbelieve that heaven exists and yet be clinging to the coat tails of what happened in the garden of eden as an excuse for your own failures.

Okija_juju:

I am only comparing the accounts as written in the bible of the origin of sin and the image of a loving God as portrayed in the bible.

Compare the OPPOSITE account, that same loving God as portrayed in the bible gave Himself as the perfect sacrifice for sin.

Okija_juju:

The thing I have noticed about you is that, you have crated out a nifty approach to evading or basically deviating from a topic, using understated mockery to demean those to whom you are responding to.

the one thing i have noticed about you huxley and co is that you are not used to people taking apart the silly nonsense you people post here as "questions". You are rather used to demure "christians" who come here to beg you, bleat meekly about christianity being all about faith (without any reasoning) or threaten you with hell if you do not repent.

I do nothing of the sort, rather i choose to show you in quite plain language that you sir have no case.

Okija_juju:

Well it is quite obvious that I am not going to be able to have a civilized debate with you on this topic so I have decided not to indulge you further tonight.

Good . . . you're not the first person to use this escape route. If it had been the other fumbling christians indulging your silly pretence for questions you'd have been posting pages of pathetic tomfoolery.

hello,if the person is truely your friend pls quote jer 32vrs 27 and by his grace its well also jer 29vrs 11 alrite peace make him understand that there is time for everything eccl 3 vrs 1- end

Perhaps I am being somewhat perverse here, but I find I haven't an inclination to pray for my friend,and I've explained why: Some of the questions he asked me I have wondered about myself, and so have a majority of the responders here.

Just labelling something 'science' or 'scientific' seems to elevate it beyond reproach, into something infallible. But science isn't infallible. It is a human machine on a journey that is as noble as it is without end, and at no point and in no field does science claim to have arrived.

I think there's a God. There's something. And what on earth do labels matter? I think we have a soul or a spirit. I think there is a spiritual dimension as real and as vivid as this one, in which it is at home.

A friend once described to me how, from the bedroom she shared with her sister, she astral-projected into the family living room, floated near the ceiling, and watched her mother upraid her brother for some infraction or the other. There was a very thin 'ropy' thing that connected the floating she to the she in the bedroom, at the belly button, exactly like an umbilical cord. "Were you, like, two consciousnesses or what?" I remember asking her. It was really weird, she said, because she could see everything happening round her, and so could the other she. When she went back inside herself, she said, she felt 'heavy' and 'pretty tired.'

This conversation took place about two decades ago. She sat next to me in class, in SECONDARY SCHOOL!

Tell her or any Eckist or New Ager or animist there isn't a 'spiritual' otherworldly dimension to things, and they would laugh you to scorn. There's so much out there beyond our comprehension. Why, for instance, is planet earth giving off musical notes beyond man'a aural range? Scientists discovered this recently. There are facts in science, but it's also a babel of experts  and authorities in conflict, and controversies and diverse theories and quacks, just like religion. Evolution is backed up by lots of data, but it hasn't been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Perhaps the current level of proof would do for other answers sought, but for something as terrible as the origin of life, it simply has to do more.

The world wasn't created in 6 literal days. Genesis is a written account of the oral history of the Jews, which Moses transcribed when he wanted to record their triumphant exodus. So he started from the very beginning, recording an account of creation generations of Jews had handed down for centuries. Is it any wonder inconsistencies abound in the stories? Who knows what really happened? Adam and Eve perhaps, but the number you are calling is unavailable at the moment. I don't set much store by accounts of events that occurred before scholarly writing was invented. The 'day' is probably a stage that could be anything from thousands to millions of years. What has He got if not lots of time? It's intriguing that evolution describes life's progress in the same order the Bible did: Water, Plants, Animals, Man. Perhaps God created the world by evolution. After all the event happened aeons ago, and 'creation' and 'evolution' are relatively recent man-made labels: Who knew what it was it was called back then, what He called it?

But I find the God of the old testament hard to like. He punishes the slightest infraction,demands sacrifices, asks his friend to sacrfice his only son, and to prove what? You want to know if he's loyal, take a peek into his heart why don't you? You can, can't you? Job is going about minding his business and he signals the devil and says, 'Have you considered my servant Job?" A man is transporting the ark, it's about to slip off the cart, he touches it to stop it from falling and God strikes him dead, knowing his innocent intent. Berate islamic fundamentalists and their senseless jihads all you want, but didn't the old testament God send the Jews on God-sanctioned holy wars as well? If he were a man I would call him an insecure, fickle,vengeful,insatiable,unpleasant, unpleaseable jealous megalomaniac. But he's not, is he?

So I cannot pray for my buddy because I know where he is coming from. I believe, but I won't be guided by blind,unreasoning religion. Why should I? Why should he?  Answers are what he wants. Perhaps he may not find them all, but he certainly has a right to ask, and to seek. So do I.

@david since you seem to be the most intelligent christian around, back to the clay teacher child exam analogy I can understand when you say he created us and can do what he likes but does that mean we are just for his amusement, Mad_Max asked valid questions about the God of the old testament because if you ask me he had a very bad temperament and is not the all loving God all if seemed to do was test his servants in a way an insecure scientist would do and not the Almighty. Secondly do you agree with the scientists dating of the earth at 4.5 billion years old? How about the fossils that were found in ethiopia that supports the fact that life originated in africa? Because that would mean the garden of eden would be there and that puts serious dents in the already dented bible. I know science does not have all the answers as their facts and hypothesis might have flaws, but seriously could any of those 5.8 million year old fossils be eve?

Mad_Max:

But I find the God of the old testament hard to like. He punishes the slightest infraction,demands sacrifices, asks his friend to sacrfice his only son, and to prove what? You want to know if he's loyal, take a peek into his heart why don't you? You can, can't you? Job is going about minding his business and he signals the devil and says, 'Have you considered my servant Job?" A man is transporting the ark, it's about to slip off the cart, he touches it to stop it from falling and God strikes him dead, knowing his innocent intent. Berate islamic fundamentalists and their senseless jihads all you want, but didn't the old testament God send the Jews on God-sanctioned holy wars as well? If he were a man I would call him an insecure, fickle,vengeful,insatiable,unpleasant, unpleaseable jealous megalomaniac. But he's not, is he?

Do i find the God of the old testament hard to like? My answer is a resounding no.
Do i think you have a right to dislike the God of the old testament? Again a resounding Yes.
Do i however think you have a basis to dislike Him? A resounding no.

Why?

Because many read the old testament primarily with the critical mind of "i must find something bad". The same God you claim punished every single infraction, was fickle, vengeful and unpleasant was the very same God who took Joseph from the dungeon of Egypt to the pinnacle of one of the World's most powerful civilizations. Was it the same God who took a shepherd boy to the throne of Israel? the same God who time and time again delivered His people with resounding victory and gave them for a possession a land that was not theirs?

The same God in Ruth, Esther, Psalms, Nehemiah, Daniel? The same God who would come to walk with Adam in the cool of the night before the fall? the same God who appeared to Abraham and spared Lot destruction in soddom? the same God who delivered another from the mouth of the Lion?
The VERY SAME GOD who came down on the cross to die for our unrighteousness?

If you look very hard, i'm sure you will find these same attributes in your own father . . . do you also hate him?

Mad_Max:

So I cannot pray for my buddy because I know where he is coming from. I believe, but I won't be guided by blind, unreasoning religion. Why should I? Why should he?  Answers are what he wants. Perhaps he may not find them all, but he certainly has a right to ask, and to seek. So do I.

"You believe" . . . but may i ask IN WHAT do you believe? In a God whom you dislike?
Is christianity blind and unreasoning or is the REAL PROBLEM our primal nature that inherently rebels against the nature of God?

Answers indeed are not what your friend wants . . . at the end of the day EXCUSES are what he seeks.

I looked very hard. I find few of the same attributes in my father. Even if I did,  my father isn't God. He's a man. Why should he be measured by the same parameters? Rationalism and spirituality aren't mutually exclusive. I believe there's more to life and the world that meets the eye. That's what I believe. And while I may practice religion, I won't practice it blindly, without looking for answers to questions that disturb me or mine. If you've answers to those questions, supply them. Even if it's just speculation. That was what I asked for. I'm not interested in a theological debate that digresses from what I asked, and my feelings about God aren't subject to debate either. They're my feelings and if and when they are resolved, the process will be entirely mine to undergo.

Like Max I totally believe in the spiritual dimension I believe there is something intelligent about this design and if you say it was by God then fine but if you ask me to believe in your bible theories! There is just too much ambiguity in it for me to believe in that inspiration, what I would say is that if there is a God and he has given us all we need, intelligence and free will to do what you like but there are natural laws which he has put in place one being that if you work hard you will reap your hard labour regardless of whether you acknowledge it or not, how else would you explain adolf hitler kill 6 million of God's people who did nothing truth is I think there are no chosen ones as long as you work along those principles then you will get these results throw am apple from a height and it will fall to the ground regardless of whether it is a muslim apple or a christian apple. All religion has done is try to explain what man does not know but without evidence.

Mad_Max:

I looked very hard. I find few of the same attributes in my father. Even if I did, my father isn't God. He's a man. Why should he be measured by the same parameters?

Certainly not . . . God is not your father. But that again is a fickle excuse . . .

The old testament is a compendium of God's dealings with the JEWS and not with man as a whole. Roll on the new covenant, sealed with the precious blood of the lamb on the cross of calvary . . . salvation became open to ALL MEN.
Is this same God asking you to kill your neighbours, hate your tormentors and putting you through trials of fire like the 3 friends of Daniel?

I find it clumsy that most people who DESPERATELY NEED a reason to hate God cling so desperately to the old testament that is pretty much Jewish history . . . what of the new testament God? You know the one who says to love your enemies and do good to those who despitefully use you?

Chrisbenogor:

Mad_Max asked valid questions about the God of the old testament because if you ask me he had a very bad temperament and is not the all loving God all if seemed to do was test his servants in a way an insecure scientist would do and not the Almighty.

The God of the old testament dealt primarily with the Jews. If any shld be hating Him it should be them and not we who are simply looking for excuses to back up our own unbelief.

Chrisbenogor:

Secondly do you agree with the scientists dating of the earth at 4.5 billion years old? How about the fossils that were found in ethiopia that supports the fact that life originated in africa? Because that would mean the garden of eden would be there and that puts serious dents in the already dented bible. I know science does not have all the answers as their facts and hypothesis might have flaws, but seriously could any of those 5.8 million year old fossils be eve?

The bible indirectly indicates a pre-adamite world once existed. I sent some verses to Huxley to read and as usual he prefered to run rings around them. Its utter folly even for a christian to believe that the earth began from the garden of Eden. We know its not true.

David is there some way to shake your hand through nairaland good point so life existed before the garden of eden at least we both agree on that great! That makes the book of genesis very cryptic then. Now second point is the old testament is an account of the history of the jews is it binding on us? The God of the new testament is very loving and Kind and I love that God but then we come to the next point. I do not think I did something right by being born into a christian family and I am 80% sure if you were born into the saudi royal family you would be saying different things by now my point is do you think christianity is the sole right religion throug which one can be saved?

Please could you also send your verses about the pre adamite world

Chrisbenogor:

Now second point is the old testament is an account of the history of the jews is it binding on us?

1 Corinthians 10 gives you a pretty good answer. From verses 1-10 brother Paul chronicles, in a nutshell, the 40 yr journey of the jews through the wilderness before getting to the promised land . . . but in verse 11 he frankly answers your question . . .

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

In essence he is saying - much of the old testament (God's dealings with the jews) are written NOT as laws binding on us (upon whm the ends of the world are come) but as examples and an admonition.

This is not to say that the old testament is useless to the christian but in there are things that we can learn about how God deals with us as children seeing it from the eyes of the old testament jews.

Chrisbenogor:

The God of the new testament is very loving and Kind and I love that God but then we come to the next point. I do not think I did something right by being born into a christian family and I am 80% sure if you were born into the saudi royal family you would be saying different things by now my point is do you think christianity is the sole right religion throug which one can be saved?

Have you ever wondered why you didnt come to earth as an American or as Bill Gates only child?

Being born to the Saudi royal family is no excuse . . . Nicodemus was a pharisee, Ruth was a Moabitess, Solomon was the son born in adultery . . . as long as you have heard the gospel unto salvation you have a choice . . . to accept it or reject it.

Chrisbenogor:

Please could you also send your verses about the pre adamite world

Gen 1:1-2 and Jer 4:23-27

Pay special attention to Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23

@Mad_Max,

I suggest that you and your friend should examine the book "In The Light of Truth-The Grail Message". You and your friend may find in it all the answers to your questions. Cheers.

Let me get you right if I am a muslim who heard about christianity but still continued being a devout muslim or jew then I am doomed?

Chrisbenogor:

Let me get you right if I am a muslim who heard about christianity but still continued being a devout muslim or jew then I am doomed?

Nicodemus was a devout Jew and pharisee . . . Read John 3

Lets ask the question this way . . . are you the one who tells your teacher what is appropriate for a test?

My teacher will give me a test that she knows i can pass(if he/she gives me a test from a higher grade than mine she would be punished), your god knowing very well that the devil is wiser and from a higher grade than eve knew that she will never be able pass that kind of test.

why didnt your teacher write your exam for you?

my teacher wound'nt invite a second party( in this case her enemy) to come decieve and disrupt me into giving a wrong asswer. my teacher will give me an exam she knows i can pass if i read very well for it with out inviting a second party to come and mar the whole process.

Now even you know that is a stupid analogy.  

your evasiveness is what is stupid here. there was nothing wrong with that analogy. will you test your child with a loaded gun? or will your teacher give you a test with a corrosive acid by just telling you that the acid is corrosive alone with out giviing you an example so that you will see how corrosive it is? a loving teacher and parent will first of all warn a child about the dangers of things but he won't allow another person to come and lead the child astray talkless of his enemy. adam and eve were living obiediently until the devil came, they never transgress on their own, the devil made them transgress, the portrayal of god as all knowing is just stupid cos that means that god knew they were going to transgress. if he did'nt know then he is not all knowing. by the way an all knowing god already knew they were going to fail the test so why give it any way?

if god is a loving father he would have taken the devil away because they were obidient until the devil came in, meaning he is not all loving. an all loving father will not allow his enemy near his children knowing fully well that his enemy who was out to get his children will come and destroy them, beside the bible did'nt say god wanted to test adam and eve so i wonder where you got this test analogy of yours, a loving father will not test his children using his enemy. he will use his friends but never his enemy. in no where in the bible did the biblical god say he wanted to test adam and eve it says that the devil came  and decieved them into  eating the fruit. god did not know and when he found out he became angry. so your analogy of testing is so wrong. teachers don't invite second parties that they know will distrupt a testing process when giving their students a test.

   Compare the OPPOSITE account, that same loving God as portrayed in the bible gave Himself as the perfect sacrifice for sin.

what sin? by the way what is sin? what is sin to you might not be sin to me and what is sin to the biblical god might not be sin to zues, allah  and the other gods. sin still exist in the world today if we are to go by the biblical theory so what are  you talking about? there was no sin in the world before the devil came and decieved adam and eve going by the biblical account. if god then has giving himself as scarifice for sin why then is there still sin in the world? if god has given himself as sacrifice then people would have gone back to the days of adam and eve in the garden of eden with all the goodies and sinless way of life. if god has sacrificed himself for sin then there will be no sin in the world peroid, because adam and eve lived in the world. or is your perfect sacrifice for sin everlasting life in heaven? if that is it then na you sabi because where and what is heaven? why must people have to die to get there? adam and eve were not living in hevean were they? if they were on earth then you biblical god's scarifice of himself has failed because sin still exist here on earth going by the biblical theory.

the one thing i have noticed about you huxley and co is that you are not used to people taking apart the silly nonsense you people post here as "questions". You are rather used to demure "christians" who come here to beg you, bleat meekly about christianity being all about faith (without any reasoning) or threaten you with hell if you do not repent.

I do nothing of the sort, rather i choose to show you in quite plain language that you sir have no case.
 

you are the one sir that has no case. because when you are hooked you start quoting from the bible that you and your fellow christains  can't and will never agree on to explain things to us or you start talking about heaven and sprituality.

Good . . . you're not the first person to use this escape route. If it had been the other fumbling christians indulging your silly pretence for questions you'd have been posting pages of pathetic tomfoolery.  

who sabi use escape route reach you? look who is talking , when people talk all you do is copy and paste from the bible that is full of ambiguity to explain things the way you personally see fit.  one day (when the spirit don shack you) you will say that 20 years is the age of accountability for people by god going by the history of the jews in the old testament by implying that by extension that age applies to people living today, the next when one of your fellow christains attacks you by saying touch not my annionting says the lord when you are arguing you go ahead and say that the message was for jews only. why are you referring to the lives of the jews in the wilderness and impying that it still holds ground and remains valid till this say and then using the same message by god to the jews of touch not my annointing to imply that it is only for the jews of that time and for that it is invalid in todays world? who sabi cherry pick and run away from issues reach you? abeg am out of here.