Just for the record, i am an Agnostic Christian.
I would like the Atheist in here to throw more light on their idea about the spiritual. We've heard and seen charms, and jazz, and real fetish things committed by humans with different means. I've personally seen raw magic in display, although some magics can be explained, but some can be so deep and fetish that one would think it has to do with the spiritual. We've heard of chinese voodoos, and some other weird things in some cultures around the world.
My question once again is, how do the Atheist explain the spiritual?
I'm not used to posting a topic here on nairaland, but trust me, i've spent almost everyday since i joined Nairaland, just reading while others argue and comment about stuffs.
Just to be clear, i'm not here to engage in an argument with anyone, i just need an explanation. I will only post on this thread if i have a question to ask from any comment here, or when i notice any digression from my question.

Thanks.
cc: Johnydon22
Frank317
Davien
Plaetton.
Other Atheist and Agnostic can contribute plz.

What do you mean by agnostic christian? How is that logical?

Ibhave have always been hearing about spirituality and spiritual events, but have never ever seen one... I don't think they exist. Things we call spiritual are just things we can't explain.

For instance, as a kid, I used to sleep paralysis was a spiritual phenomena until I learnt that is has to do with anxiety and age.

I used to think dream was a spiritual thing until I found out the relationship ship between repressed memories , fear and trauma and our unconscious state.

I used to think someone getting heal from sickness was spiritual until I found out the role of positivity in boasting the immune system.

I used to think have dreadlocks was a spiritual thing until I learnt otherwise.

I used to think insanity was spiritual possession until psychology thought me otherwise.

freecocoa:
What do you mean by agnostic christian? How is that logical?

agnostic christian means or better put agnostic theist means "he believes their is a god but don't empirically say he is sure their is"...

'

freecocoa:
'

Attack issues... not person

Thanks Op, I love your question.

First we all grew up in a very religiously saturated society ladened with blatant nonsensical superstitions, a sophisticated African society where the average African believes the potency of Voodoo and spirit shenanigans but none have ever asked "How does this work?"

I have been superstitious before i agree, but look around you.
If you watch the Guinness book of record you will see people swallowing swords, eating glass and breaking bricks with their fist.

Someone could call these magical but they are not. . What we call Magic or spiritual phenomenons are just events we cant explain or clever tricks hidden from us.

We live in a society where old women and little children are being lynched, discriminated against in the name of witches, ask people to substantiate this claim and you get cock and bull stories.

Growing up believing spirits and spiritual mumbo mumbo, i grew to understand most of these fears were just in my mind and nothing more.

Have you ever wondered how these things work?

We grew up hearing madness was as a result of madness spirit/demon, now we know its nonsense. we have seen many claims of spiritual happenings both in nairaland and in real life but none have ever been substantiated before.

I have talked about a situation i had an argument with friends on the potency of voodoo and prayers, we were in ezeagu in enugu state, my friend invited a voodoo man, i brought out a stone placed it on a small stool and told them to make it fall without touching it, both to the voodoo guy and prayer guy. the prayer guy said the bible said "don't test god" the voodoo guy did some nonsensical jagons and left saying he would be back, i got up and gently pushed the stone out of the stool turned to my friends and said "See? i just did what your voodoo and prayers cant"

The potency of these spiritual stuffs are all in the mind of the person who believes them. i still watch magic shows now but thats just what they are MAGIC (tricks).

Their is nothing to explain in the spiritual, if anybody claims extra-ordinary powers let that person demonstrate it before you to substantiate his/claims.
We grew up hearing masquerades are spirits of our ancestors, we later found out its just some dudes wearing masks.

Any phenomena you don't understand, thorough scrutinization and investigation can show many things and what it really is not just label them spiritual because you lack understanding of what it is.

As i am now I have never seen any substantiated spiritual claim, when i believed those crap all we use to hear were cock and bull hearsay stories.

Cc: Sunny

Well, atheism varies. There is a bloc that believe in pantheism and some who are extremist. Now to your question. Atheist don't believe that those spiritual happening were orchestrated by a supreme or greater being but rather it is the power of nature. It is like saying the evaporation process or the laws of floatation is a handwork of a supreme being, they are pure natural dealings that when mastered anyone can implement.

So, the existence of voodoo or charm and it's appurtenances, doesn't mean there is a greater being ordaining it, no. Rather it is the mastering of natural entities by men hence it amazes us. Science is seen by most as miracle in the middle ages. So our ignorance of the power of nature makes us see some of it's exhibition as metaphysical.

freecocoa:
What do you mean by agnostic christian? How is that logical?

lolz, i know it sounds somehow, but it's to specify the religion i was brought up in. I'm not an Agnostic Jew or Agnostic Muslim. Well, it's not logical though. But it was to state my former belief system.

Freemanan:


Attack issues... not person

Are you now stalking me or what?

johnydon22:


agnostic christian means or better put agnostic theist means "he believes their is a god but don't empirically say he is sure their is"...

Thanks John, that's more like what i have in mind.

Sunnystooth:

lolz, i know it sounds somehow, but it's to specify the religion i was brought up in. I'm not an Agnostic Jew or Agnostic Muslim. Well, it's not logical though. But it was to state my former belief system.

Well, I can understand your stand but to be agnostic christian, you do have to practice christianity,this is where I become confused and think, isn't it better to just be christian or agnostic.

Anyways, you already said it's not logical so...

freecocoa:
Are you now stalking me or what?

Guilty

Freemanan:


Guilty

Okay, keep at it.

Whenever I see a 'spiritual power' build a bridge or pave a road, I will believe.

johnydon22:


Someone could call these magical but they are not. . What we call Magic or spiritual phenomenons are just events we cant explain or clever tricks hidden from us.

Ok then, from the above, and from what Freemann said, these clever tricks that we cant explain or that are hidden from us, can we categorically consider them Natural (like freemann said)or they are indeed Meta-physical or spiritual?

freecocoa:
Well, I can understand your stand but to be agnostic christian, you do have to practice christianity,this is where I become confused and think, isn't it better to just be christian or agnostic.

Anyways, you already said it's not logical so...

Well, for now i still go to church once in a while. But i just go though, i dont believe all the stuffs they say or do there. I just go for the fun of it. Maybe that is why i prefer calling myself an Agnostic Christian.

Sunnystooth:

Ok then, from the above, and from what Freemann said, these clever tricks that we cant explain or that are hidden from us, can we categorically consider them Natural (like freemann said)or they are indeed Meta-physical or spiritual?

Good, like i have said i haven't seen any that have been substantiated.

From the examples i gave, do you consider someone swallowing a sword natural? of course it is, he just knew precisely what angle to keep his throat.
So most of these tricks we point to as magic are just phenomenas we do not grasp how it was achieved.

My dad once told me, their is a particular leaf when burnt induces rain when the smoke reaches the sky during the raining season, this is practically very plausible because when silver iodine (Agl) is administered into the cloud (commonly with the help of a plane) it induces rain from the cloud. so these are just clever ways to manipulate nature... People who don't grasp this will certainly call it magic or say it has something to do with spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Like kay17 said "When i see them build a bridge with magic in a whim or make an amputee limb grow back then i will agree"

Sunnystooth:

Well, for now i still go to church once in a while. But i just go though, i dont believe all the stuffs they say or do there. I just go for the fun of it. Maybe that is why i prefer calling myself an Agnostic Christian.

Okay,whatever rocks your boat, I stopped going for a long time, I'm purely Agnostic now and I'd like it to remain that way.

Astrology, fortune telling, magic, spell binding, spiritism, super natural, religions and lots more are human imagination and illusions.

Humans was preprogrammed by evolution via natural selection to glamour for unseen transcendence due to their lack the knowledge of the working process of our natural environment, replacing unknown and whatever looks complicated as some sort of unseen force (god of the gap)

If an idea or thought can survive upto years, decades, centuries, millennia etc without extinction, such ideas automatically become truth.

Using nonempirical to explain the physical things is absolutely delusional.

johnydon22:


I have talked about a situation i had an argument with friends on the potency of voodoo and prayers, we were in ezeagu in enugu state, my friend invited a voodoo man, i brought out a stone placed it on a small stool and told them to make it fall without touching it, both to the voodoo guy and prayer guy. the prayer guy said the bible said [b]"don't test god" [/b]the voodoo guy did some nonsensical jagons and left saying he would be back, i got up and gently pushed the stone out of the stool turned to my friends and said "See? i just did what your voodoo and prayers cant"

Since science are not allowed to use measurements and scientific methodology by creationist in explaining the super natural, the supernatural nonsense should not be allow to freely perpetrate it's evil sting on the physical world. Unseens and nonempiricals should be left to the unknowable instead of using that sort of idea to explain the physical.

johnydon22:


Good, like i have said i haven't seen any that have been substantiated.

From the examples i gave, do you consider someone swallowing a sword natural? of course it is, he just knew precisely what angle to keep his throat.
So most of these tricks we point to as magic are just phenomenas we do not grasp how it was achieved.

My dad once told me, their is a particular leaf when burnt induces rain when the smoke reaches the sky during the raining season, this is practically very plausible because when silver iodine (Agl) is administered into the cloud (commonly with the help of a plane) it induces rain from the cloud. so these are just clever ways to manipulate nature... People who don't grasp this will certainly call it magic or say it has something to do with spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Like kay17 said "When i see them build a bridge with magic in a whim or make an amputee limb grow back then i will agree"

Well, hope you dont mind my so many questions though. I have one more.
So, the Ogbanje we used to hear, the fetish things done in states like Cross River and Akwa Ibom, the juju we hear of in Edo state, the shrine and all that? Does it mean to you they are non-existent or not potent?

Finally, what is an Atheist take on the possibility of the existence of Demons?

freecocoa:
Okay,whatever rocks your boat, I stopped going for a long time, I'm purely Agnostic now and I'd like it to remain that way.

Okay then, thanks. But what's your take on the topic?

menesheh:
Astrology, fortune telling, magic, spell binding, spiritism, super natural, religions and lots more are human imagination and illusions.

Human beings was preprogrammed by evolution via natural selection to glamour for unseen transcendence do to their lack the knowledge of the working process of our natural environment, replacing unknown and whatever looks complicated as some sort of unseen force (god of the gap)

Hmmm, I see.
Do humans have spirits? If yes, are humans in anyway conscious about this spirit? What about demons, do they exist as well?

Sunnystooth:

Well, hope you dont mind my so many questions though. I have one more.
So, the Ogbanje we used to hear, the fetish things done in states like Cross River and Akwa Ibom, the juju we hear of in Edo state, the shrine and all that? Does it mean to you they are non-existent or not potent?

One word [size=20] Superstition[/size] am sure you know what that means.

Sunnystooth:

Finally, what is an Atheist take on the possibility of the existence of Demons?

Demons? thats funny, their is no such things as that, its just plain myth worked out of superstitious jagons.
Atheist disbelief the existence of a god, how can an atheist still buy the demon bullshiiit.

E.G the succubus and incubus demons were worked out from the myth of lilith, a jewish mythology of Adam's first wife before eve. their is nothing like such nonsense. . its just in the mind and nothing more.

All of these are ways adults believe in Children's fairy tales...

johnydon22:
Thanks Op, I love your question.

First we all grew up in a very religiously saturated society ladened with blatant nonsensical superstitions, a sophisticated African society where the average African believes the potency of Voodoo and spirit shenanigans but none have ever asked "How does this work?"

I have been superstitious before i agree, but look around you.
If you watch the Guinness book of record you will see people swallowing swords, eating glass and breaking bricks with their fist.

Someone could call these magical but they are not. . What we call Magic or spiritual phenomenons are just events we cant explain or clever tricks hidden from us.

We live in a society where old women and little children are being lynched, discriminated against in the name of witches, ask people to substantiate this claim and you get cock and bull stories.

Growing up believing spirits and spiritual mumbo mumbo, i grew to understand most of these fears were just in my mind and nothing more.

Have you ever wondered how these things work?

We grew up hearing madness was as a result of madness spirit/demon, now we know its nonsense. we have seen many claims of spiritual happenings both in nairaland and in real life but none have ever been substantiated before.

I have talked about a situation i had an argument with friends on the potency of voodoo and prayers, we were in ezeagu in enugu state, my friend invited a voodoo man, i brought out a stone placed it on a small stool and told them to make it fall without touching it, both to the voodoo guy and prayer guy. the prayer guy said the bible said "don't test god" the voodoo guy did some nonsensical jagons and left saying he would be back, i got up and gently pushed the stone out of the stool turned to my friends and said "See? i just did what your voodoo and prayers cant"

The potency of these spiritual stuffs are all in the mind of the person who believes them. i still watch magic shows now but thats just what they are MAGIC (tricks).

Their is nothing to explain in the spiritual, if anybody claims extra-ordinary powers let that person demonstrate it before you to substantiate his/claims.
We grew up hearing masquerades are spirits of our ancestors, we later found out its just some dudes wearing masks.

Any phenomena you don't understand, thorough scrutinization and investigation can show many things and what it really is not just label them spiritual because you lack understanding of what it is.

As i am now I have never seen any substantiated spiritual claim, when i believed those crap all we use to hear were cock and bull hearsay stories.

spot on dude,you just provided the answer,you literarily said everything I had in mind to wanna contribute but regardless, I would still comment on the thread,Thumb up.

Sunnystooth:

Okay then, thanks. But what's your take on the topic?

You are welcome.

Well, being Agnostic has pretty much explained my stance on such things, I just don't read any meanings to things I can't explain, you know, like being scared of the so called fetish things and whatnot.

freecocoa:
You are welcome.

Well, being Agnostic has pretty much explained my stance on such things, I just don't read any meanings to things I can't explain, you know, like being scared of the so called fetish things and whatnot.

Hmmm, typical of an Agnostic. We just sit on the fence, lolz. I get your point though.

Sunnystooth:

Well, hope you dont mind my so many questions though. I have one more.
So, the Ogbanje we used to hear, the fetish things done in states like Cross River and Akwa Ibom, the juju we hear of in Edo state, the shrine and all that? Does it mean to you they are non-existent or not potent?

One word [size=20] superstition[/size] Am sure you know what that means... I have had a dealing with one of such children labeled ogbanje, a young innocent child hated and discriminated by all in the name of being an ogbanje, i became friends with him, talked with him. He was just a child the society doesnt accept his life as he is, a gifted child thrown into psychological chaos.

Sunnystooth:

Finally, what is an Atheist take on the possibility of the existence of Demons?

Demons?? hahahahaha thats very laughable. . those nonsense don't exist only in the head of the people who think they do.
Have you watched TB joshua's deliverance session? one of the best ways to watch a joke.

Demons are just mythology, am sure you don't know the demons succubus and incubus are worked out from the LILITH myth, a jewish myth of a woman named lilith who was supposed to be adam's first wife.

Sleep paralysis and optical illusions are labeled demons thats funny.
An atheist dont believe a god exist how am i supposed to believe demons do. they are just same mythology cooked up from same source... cultural superstition.

Just the adult way of believing an adult version of fairy tales..

Sunnystooth:

Hmmm, typical of an Agnostic. We just sit on the fence, lolz. I get your point though.

Lol, I don't sit on the fence at all times though, just on things I find unexplainable, you know, it's hard for someone who likes to reason to just be on the fence.

johnydon22:
One word [size=20] Superstition am sure you know what that means.

Finally, what is an Atheist take on the possibility of the existence of Demons?
Demons? thats funny, their is no such things as that, its just plain myth worked out of superstitious jagons.
Atheist disbelief the existence of a god, how can an atheist still buy the demon bullshiiit.

E.G the succubus and incubus demons were worked out from the myth of lilith, a jewish mythology of Adam's first wife before eve. their is nothing like such nonsense. . its just in the mind and nothing more.

All of these are ways adults believe in Children's fairy tales...

Hmmm, Thanks John.
You've Provided reasonable answers to my question about Atheist stand point when it comes to things of the spiritual. I really appreciate.

You can fill me in on any more thing you think i need to know about Atheist view of the spiritual whenever you can.
Thanks again!

Sunnystooth:

Hmmm, I see.
Do humans have spirits? If yes, are humans in anyway conscious about this spirit? What about demons, do they exist as well?

The simple answer is they don't exist. It is human imaginations that survived the test of times.

Sunnystooth:

Hmmm, I see.
Do humans have spirits? If yes, are humans in anyway conscious about this spirit? What about demons, do they exist as well?

spirits? ... what do you mean by spirit in this regard?