Not to long, and explains John 1:1 very well.


The Word and The Watchtower: An Exegesis of John 1:1

by Matthew Halsted

Why Such a Task Is Important

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’" (Matthew 16:13)

This is, by far, the most important question anyone can ask. Is Jesus only a human prophet, or is He God incarnate? To be sure, what one believes about the nature of Christ has eternal consequences. The reason for this is that faith is only as good as its object. If I believe in something that is not true, then my faith, however genuine and sincere, is futile. It does me no good. It would be akin to saying, “I do not believe in gravity.” No matter how sincere the statement, gravity still exists, and I will not begin to float away anytime soon. Gravity, then, exists apart from my belief or non-belief.

Likewise, if one does not believe Christ is the second Person of the Trinity and if it turns out that He truly is, then that person’s faith would have been in someone who is false, namely, a false christ. And a false christ cannot save. This is why sound theology is needed and especially in today’s time. While it is not an end in itself, solid theology leads to the true Christ, and the true Christ is whom we want to adore and worship.

If we are to accurately understand the person of Christ, who He is and what He has done, then we need to dive deep into the Word of God. The ontological aspects of the Godhead may be mysterious but let there be no mistake that the Triune God of the Bible does, indeed, exist. A strong apologetic stems from a true theology, which is rooted and grounded in the revelation of God--the Bible, and it is from within the revelation of the Bible where we get our theology of Christ.
Where to Begin

While this article does not intend to be exhaustive in its treatment of the many important Trinitarian texts that the Bible contains, it is within our scope to look deeply into (arguably) the most principal and foundational of all texts contained in the entire Bible concerning the nature of Christ--John 1:1.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

This text from John’s Gospel is important in light of today’s highly religious and pluralistic atmosphere. The many heretical “offshoots” of Christianity which have appeared throughout recent history (especially in North America) are of significant importance as we consider John 1:1. More specifically, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, otherwise known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, has from its very inception been unorthodox and heretical in its teaching and theology. For our concerns, then, we will look briefly at what they believe about Christ as well as their interpretation and translation of John 1:1.
Who is Christ for the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

According to The Watchtower Society, Christ was “directly created by God.”1 Moreover, in answering the question--“Is the firstborn Son equal to God, as some believe?”--they answer,

“This is not what the Bible teaches. As we noted in the preceding paragraph, the Son was created. Obviously, then, he had a beginning whereas Jehovah God has no beginning or end.”2

Christ, to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, is not eternal. That is, He had a beginning, and there was a time when He did not exist. Therefore, He is not God, but does this square with the Biblical witness of John 1:1? We maintain that it does not.
The New World Translation

While this article does not have within its scope a detailed treatise on how to pick and choose a good Bible translation, it should be noted that Jehovah’s Witnesses use a very faulty and inaccurate Bible translation known as The New World Translation (NWT). How does their translation render John 1:1? According to the NWT, this verse is translated as,

“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

Notice the major difference between the NASB and the NWT’s translation of third clause: “ . . . and the Word was a god.” This is a significant shift between the two translations. The question needs to be asked: Is this variation warranted?

Now, of course, if we want to decide which translation is the best, it only makes sense to go to the original language in which the writers of the New Testament wrote. Since Koine Greek was the language in which John wrote his Gospel, it would do us well to look at how John wrote and arranged his words in this verse.
A Sound Exegesis of the Text

It would be best to look at John 1:1 in parts and taking into account each clause one at a time. Once we understand what the text says and what John meant for it to mean, we can better compare that with what Jehovah’s Witnesses claim about the Person of Christ. What does the Greek say, then?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Now for many, Greek is still Greek. An arrangement of unknown symbols means nothing to the average Christian, but what we would like to do is take you, the reader, through this simple, yet profound verse--one word at a time--and all the while equipping you with the information needed in order to translate properly.
Clause #1

First, let’s look at the first clause of the verse:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

If we were to transliterate this Greek clause into English letters, the following would be the outcome:

En archē ēn ho logos

First, it should be noted that this clause is extremely significant and important. Before we begin our in-depth look into the whole of this clause, though, what do these words mean?

First, we will notice the words, “En archē” (Ἐν ἀρχῇ). “En” is a preposition, which is translated as “in." Archē, it should be noted, turns out to be an interesting word in light of the overall context of this passage. Archē can mean “a beginning,” “first place,” and/or “headship.”3 It would not be wrong to render this word as “chief.”

To better illustrate this word, it might be good to recall the word “archbishop.” We’ve often heard this word in church circles and particularly in reference to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastical hierarchy. The word “archbishop” comes from two corresponding Greek words, namely, archē and episkopos (meaning “bishop” or “overseer”). Therefore, “archbishop” means “chief overseer” or “chief bishop.”

So we can see from this example that “archē” is a word which brings the idea of “foundation” or “headship.” Within the context of John 1:1, we can better see from these definitions how this might make sense. “In the beginning was the Word . . . " We see that this part of the text refers to the foundation of the universe--that is, to its origin.4 As we can see, the word, “archē,” actually gives this idea of beginnings a “thicker” meaning than what we English speakers are used to, for it speaks of the “origin” and of the “foundation” of the universe. That is why, given the context of John 1:1, Bible scholars translate “En archē” as “In the beginning.”

The next part of the first clause is “ēn ho logos” (Gk: ἦν ὁ λόγος).

The word “ēn” is, no doubt, loaded with significance. It is a verb that conveys a ton of information and insight into the deity of Christ. As noted above, we have, so far, translated “En archē” as “In the beginning.” So, we see that, at the start of time, something was going on, or, more specifically, Someone existed. That is where “ēn ho logos” comes in. So what was going on “In the beginning?" We find that Christ was.

But first, what does “ho logos” mean? Logos simply but very profoundly means “word.” We also know that “the Word” is speaking about Jesus Christ. (It should be noted that all Biblical scholars hold to the idea that “the Word” is Christ).

The verb, “ēn,” (Gk: ἦν) is in the past tense. It is a third person, singular verb, which means “was." Without going into too much detail, it should be noted that, contrary to the English language, there are a couple of ways of rendering Greek verbs in the past tense.5 The first way is to render a verb in the imperfect tense, and the second way is the aorist tense. William Mounce defines the two tenses:

“The imperfect tense describes a continuous action usually occurring in the past, while the aorist . . . describes an undefined action usually occurring in the past.”6

The word, “ēn,” in John 1:1 by way of Divine inspiration happens to be in the imperfect tense. This means that “the Word” (i.e., Jesus Christ) was “continuously in existence before the beginning.”7 Furthermore, the imperfect tense of was has inherent within it the idea of eternal past existence. That is, there is no beginning to the Word, Jesus Christ.

So far, we have the first clause translated: “In the beginning was the Word . . . ” We have seen that, at the beginning or creation of the universe, the Word was already in existence. He was existing at the creation of the universe and was existing continuously into eternity past. How much significance one little Greek verb makes!
Clause #2

From the previous section, we have shown that Christ--the Word--always existed. In other words, there was never a time when Christ was not in existence. This section draws our attention to the second part of the verse of John 1:1.

καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν

Once again, if we were to transliterate this Greek clause into English letters, the following would be the outcome:

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon

We already know how to translate a few of these words. For example, “ho logos” means “the Word.” The verb, “ēn,” means “was.” But what do the other words mean?

“Kai” is a conjunction that means “and.” Therefore, “Kai ho logos ēn” can be translated as, “and the word was . . . "

But what about “pros ton theon?" “Pros” is another preposition that means “with.” Moreover, “ton theon” means “the God.” We can, therefore, translate this whole clause as “and the word was with God.”

John MacArthur sums up this clause rather well,

“ . . . John took his argument one step further. In His eternal preexistence the Word was with God. The English translation does not bring out the full richness of the Greek expression (pros ton theon). That phrase means far more than merely that the Word existed with God.”8

What, then, does this phrase mean? One commentator has said that the preposition “pros” is hard to translate.9 “It is equivalent to ‘was in relation with God,’ ‘stood over against,’ not in space or time, but eternally and constitutionally.”10

To make this clearer, it would do us well to turn back to John MacArthur, who, in his own commentary, quotes W. Robert Cook as saying,

“ . . . it ‘[gives] the picture of two personal beings facing one another and engaging in intelligent discourse.’”11

We can see, then, that not only was Christ preexistent but also He was in loving fellowship with the Father. “Pros ton theon” actually shows the eternal distinction between the Father and the Son. This text proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father. They are, as it were, eternally distinct.

So far, then, we have translated the first two clauses of John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God . . . ”
Clause #3

Finally, we have come to the very last clause of John 1:1:

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

As done in the previous sections, we will transliterate this clause into English letters:

kai theos ēn ho logos

Since we already recognize these words, let’s quickly translate them:

“and God was the word”

Is this a good translation of the Greek? No, it is not. First, it should be observed that “logos” not “theos” is the subject. Why? Because theos does not have an article in front of it like logos does. The clause is not “kai ho theos ēn logos.” John recorded this differently. He, under divine inspiration, writes, “kai theos ēn ho logos.”

“Ho logos,” then, is the subject since it contains the definite article. This is why, in our translation, we would place “logos” before “theos.”12

Furthermore, if John had written, “ho theos ēn ho logos,” then he would be advocating Sabellianism, which basically states that God the Father and God the Son are one and the same, thus denying the Trinity.13 If he would have constructed his sentence that way, we could have roughly translated it as, “The God was the Word.” But this is not what John records. John actually leaves out the article from theos. Even more so, if John had stated, “The God was the Word,” he would have contradicted the second clause, which states that the Word was with God. This would have denied the eternal distinction between the Father and the Son. After all, if the Son was the Father, then how could He have been distinct from Himself?

But since there is no article before theos, does that mean Jesus was “a god” and not “God." After all, John leaves out the article before theos. Should we then translate this as “the Word was divine” or “the Word was a god?" In short, are the Jehovah Witnesses right in doing this? After all, Jehovah’s Witnesses say that, “John 1:1 highlights the quality of the Word--that he was 'divine,' 'godlike,' 'a god,' but not Almighty God.”14

This is hardly the case. Under divine guidance, John actually constructs this clause to refute such an idea. As MacArthur rightly notes, if John had wanted “to say that the Word was merely in some sense divine [“a god”], he could have used the adjective theios (cf. 2 Peter 1:4).”15 But, as we can see, he does not use theios at all. John is saying something more than “Jesus was ‘a god.’”

The only resulting conclusion is that Christ, being eternally distinct from the Father (refer to our discussion on clause two), was nonetheless God.
Embracing Mystery, Not Destroying It

There is one God. The Son is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is He the Son.

What Jehovah’s Witnesses (who are really modern-day Arians) want to do is abolish all mystery about God. Because the Trinity does not make sense, it must be wrong. So, after mistranslating Holy Scripture, they deceive themselves into thinking the Trinity is unbiblical. In the end, human reasoning has the final say for them.

But with the Triune God of the Bible, mystery is a good thing, and it should be embraced. After all, why would we, mere dependant humans, want to serve a God who is exhaustible and as one who can be figured out? To be sure, God has revealed Himself in Scripture, and He is known personally through Christ. But it is our job—as responsible exegetes of Scripture and as obedient children—to not allow that revelation of God to be distorted or repackaged into something nice and tidy.

Any divergence from what we know to be Biblical truth about the nature of the Godhead is heresy. It conveys to the world a false god and ultimately a false christ.

And a false christ does not save.

https://carm.org/the-word-and-the-watchtower-an-exegesis-of-john-1-1

After Jesus baptism God said "This is my SON my beloved ." Can a son be the father too?

Izecson3D:
After Jesus baptism God said "This is my SON my beloved ." Can a son be the father too?

The Son isn't the Father, you should read the OP again.

And concerning the verse you allude to, you will notice that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove,
and the Father said from heaven "this is my beloved Son"
There you have the the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit together at the same time,
the three persons in God.
However this thread is about the Word being God, and not about the Son being the Father which He not,
He is God though, as the OP shows.

Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

johnw74:


The Son isn't the Father, you should read the OP again.

And concerning the verse you allude to, you will notice that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove,
and the Father said from heaven "this is my beloved Son"
There you have the the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit together at the same time,
the three persons in God.
However this thread is about the Word being God, and not about the Son being the Father which He not,
He is God though, as the OP shows.

I don't get ur point then, everyone knows jesus is the son of God, what really do you want to prove? No vex

Izecson3D:

I don't get ur point then, everyone knows jesus is the son of God, what really do you want to prove? No vex

I don't want to prove anything, the Op makes it very clear that the Word is God.
believe it or not, many don't, that's the reason for the OP.

dolphinheart:


it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.

What absolute garbage and confusion fake jw talks.

dolphinheart:
Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

@ johnw74 , the above are absolute truths, that's why you can't refute any of them. you want to post about your doctrines, those scriptures I posted show's your doctrines are false!. that's y you can never ever explain those scriptures.

dolphinheart:
Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

Why are you giving yourself trouble with this guy? He left the other thread while he couldn't prove Trinity only to come and open this one.

goodnews201668:


Why are you giving yourself trouble with this guy? He left the other thread while he couldn't prove Trinity only to come and open this one.

lol, the guy na dolphinheart friend o , dolphinheart know how to handle him

the johnw guy always repeat the same stanza as if he is programmed , u hear

" duh , u dont understand anything , yet you cant understand " next is " jw speak naturally , those who called themselves jw and are not and do lie "


sometimes reading the guys comment for me is fun , cos u go dey see grammar . honestly, nairaland is fun , too many comic characters here like mr johnw . ask him question , he will reset to his default answer " i dont discuss with those who call themselves jw " or he say " i dont cast pearls before swines, duh ? dummy u hear " yet he will quote you , ironically him no dey discuss .

he even say Jesus is Gods own spirit . he never realize he was saying Jesus is holyspirit with that statement . so confuse fellow

but I like him , he is one comic character

johnw74:


I don't want to prove anything, the Op makes it very clear that the Word is God.
believe it or not, many don't, that's the reason for the OP.

Good one John, in my own opinion, anyone that uses lies, misinformation and alteration of the bible to juxtapose their stance WRT trinity, is not worth debating with.

Sometimes its best not to converse with blind, deaf and dumb people who are unaware of their sickness, the conversation will take you no where.

Jozzy4:


lol, the guy na dolphinheart friend o , dolphinheart know how to handle him

the johnw guy always repeat the same stanza as if he is programmed , u hear

" duh , u dont understand anything , yet you cant understand " next is " jw speak naturally , those who called themselves jw and are not and do lie "

sometimes reading the guys comment for me is fun , cos u go dey see grammar . honestly, nairaland is fun , too many comic characters here like mr johnw . ask him question , he will reset to his default answer " i dont discuss with those who call themselves jw " or he say " i dont cast pearls before swines, duh ? dummy u hear " yet he will quote you , ironically him no dey discuss .

he even say Jesus is Gods own spirit . he never realize he was saying Jesus is holyspirit with that statement . so confuse fellow

but I like him , he is one comic character

No be say you talk am oo, the guy can be funny he always repeat the same things over and over again.
That's why I hardly pay attention to people who are just here to mock themselves.

Jozzy4:


lol, the guy na dolphinheart friend o , dolphinheart know how to handle him

the johnw guy always repeat the same stanza as if he is programmed , u hear

" duh , u dont understand anything , yet you cant understand " next is " jw speak naturally , those who called themselves jw and are not and do lie "


sometimes reading the guys comment for me is fun , cos u go dey see grammar . honestly, nairaland is fun , too many comic characters here like mr johnw . ask him question , he will reset to his default answer " i dont discuss with those who call themselves jw " or he say " i dont cast pearls before swines, duh ? dummy u hear " yet he will quote you , ironically him no dey discuss .

he even say Jesus is Gods own spirit . he never realize he was saying Jesus is holyspirit with that statement . so confuse fellow

but I like him , he is one comic character

Ironically that is how most JW,s in this forum behave especially dolphinheart.

Proverbs 11:9

fake Jw all think I'm funny, yeah sure they do,
jw cannot tell the truth if their life depend on it, and it does.

About my not replying to dolphin post,
when do I ever get into discussion with fake jw, or any non believer,
I show them wrong now and then,
but phony jw cannot help but lie.

Isaiah 32:6

goodnews201668:


No be say you talk am oo, the guy can be funny he always repeat the same things over and over again.
That's why I hardly pay attention to people who are just here to mock themselves.

Ha ha fake jw g news hardly pays attention to me, yet he follow and replies to my nearly every post,

when phony jw speak a lie, and they do all the time, they are speaking naturally.

Jozzy4:


lol, the guy na dolphinheart friend o , dolphinheart know how to handle him

the johnw guy always repeat the same stanza as if he is programmed , u hear

" duh , u dont understand anything , yet you cant understand " next is " jw speak naturally , those who called themselves jw and are not and do lie "


sometimes reading the guys comment for me is fun , cos u go dey see grammar . honestly, nairaland is fun , too many comic characters here like mr johnw . ask him question , he will reset to his default answer " i dont discuss with those who call themselves jw " or he say " i dont cast pearls before swines, duh ? dummy u hear " yet he will quote you , ironically him no dey discuss .

he even say Jesus is Gods own spirit . he never realize he was saying Jesus is holyspirit with that statement . so confuse fellow

but I like him , he is one comic character

fake jw supporter cannot help but lie, like jw speaking a lie is speaking naturally for him,
look back at his language to me in old posts and discover does he like me? or does he hate me?
you will discover that he, like phony jw doesn't like me, which I'm happy about, because I don't like them, I don't like God blasphemers.
And they so do lie.

dolphinheart:



it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.

What absolute garbage and confusion fake jw talks.

1 Timothy 4:1

^^^
fake paranoid jw gnews needs to have the last post

so go for it
vvv .... and he did

2 Corinthians 11:13

johnw74:


fake jw supporter cannot help but lie, like jw speaking a lie is speaking naturally for him,
look back at his language to me in old posts and discover does he like me? or does he hate me?
you will discover that he, like phony jw doesn't like me, which I'm happy about, because I don't like them, I don't like God blasphemers.
And they so do lie.

^^^
fake jw supporter has once more been caught in lies
what else can he do but fake laughs. < real ones .

This guy could be mad after all, *unfollows thread*

dolphinheart:
Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

the above will continue to stand as the truth, and surporters of false doctrine will continue to run away from it!
Re 1:1A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

Re 1:5and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood—
yes
Re 1:6and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus has told us countless of times who my God is, he prayed to that God, thought me how to pray to that God, told us about his relationship with that God who exalted him above his companions.
I will not worship a man made God, a two or three headed God, for Jesus has told me , the father is the only true god!

Joh 17:1Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you,
Joh 17:2just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.
Joh 17:3This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

one should read John chapter 17, it tells you more about the relationship between jesus and God.

John 1:1-5King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

^^^ the above will continue to haunt manipulative liars, no matter how they try to alter it.

I wonder how one will use lies and misinformation to promote a "truth".

Open minded and honest christains, examine for yourselves.

dolphinheart:


the above will continue to stand as the truth, and surporters of false doctrine will continue to run away from it!
Re 1:1A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

Re 1:5and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood—
yes
Re 1:6and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus has told us countless of times who my God is, he prayed to that God, thought me how to pray to that God, told us about his relationship with that God who exalted him above his companions.
I will not worship a man made God, a two or three headed God, for Jesus has told me , the father is the only true god!

Joh 17:1Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you,
Joh 17:2just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.
Joh 17:3This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

one should read John chapter 17, it tells you more about the relationship between jesus and God.

They'll keep running aways from these portions, for real they can't refute them.

excerpts from John chapter 17
(my views are in brackets* blue colour)

[b]
4.I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.(read John 4: 34)

6. “I have made your name(a name that some Translations have tried to remove) manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

7. Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you;

8. because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me.

9. I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those whom you have given me, because they are yours;

11. “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

12. When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

14. I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

18. Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world.
21. so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

22. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

23. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them [color=red]just as you loved me.

24. Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

25. Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me.

26. I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”[/b]

the question to you is, do you know the name of the righteous father? what is that name?

King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone
is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Glory belongs to our God and Father forever! Amen.

fake Jw knows I don't have discussions with sectarians and other non believers
but of course fake jw cannot help but lie and say, "they run away from it".
although I do sometimes show them up in their wrongs, we do run away from their lies generally.
fake jw of course deny the truth below and elsewhere, and twist things around, like in saying, God is not God, but is "a god".

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.




[size=14pt]The Word and The Watchtower: An Exegesis of John 1:1[/size]

by Matthew Halsted

Why Such a Task Is Important

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’" (Matthew 16:13)

This is, by far, the most important question anyone can ask. Is Jesus only a human prophet, or is He God incarnate? To be sure, what one believes about the nature of Christ has eternal consequences. The reason for this is that faith is only as good as its object. If I believe in something that is not true, then my faith, however genuine and sincere, is futile. It does me no good. It would be akin to saying, “I do not believe in gravity.” No matter how sincere the statement, gravity still exists, and I will not begin to float away anytime soon. Gravity, then, exists apart from my belief or non-belief.

Likewise, if one does not believe Christ is the second Person of the Trinity and if it turns out that He truly is, then that person’s faith would have been in someone who is false, namely, a false christ. And a false christ cannot save. This is why sound theology is needed and especially in today’s time. While it is not an end in itself, solid theology leads to the true Christ, and the true Christ is whom we want to adore and worship.

If we are to accurately understand the person of Christ, who He is and what He has done, then we need to dive deep into the Word of God. The ontological aspects of the Godhead may be mysterious but let there be no mistake that the Triune God of the Bible does, indeed, exist. A strong apologetic stems from a true theology, which is rooted and grounded in the revelation of God--the Bible, and it is from within the revelation of the Bible where we get our theology of Christ.
Where to Begin

While this article does not intend to be exhaustive in its treatment of the many important Trinitarian texts that the Bible contains, it is within our scope to look deeply into (arguably) the most principal and foundational of all texts contained in the entire Bible concerning the nature of Christ--John 1:1.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

This text from John’s Gospel is important in light of today’s highly religious and pluralistic atmosphere. The many heretical “offshoots” of Christianity which have appeared throughout recent history (especially in North America) are of significant importance as we consider John 1:1. More specifically, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, otherwise known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, has from its very inception been unorthodox and heretical in its teaching and theology. For our concerns, then, we will look briefly at what they believe about Christ as well as their interpretation and translation of John 1:1.
Who is Christ for the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

According to The Watchtower Society, Christ was “directly created by God.”1 Moreover, in answering the question--“Is the firstborn Son equal to God, as some believe?”--they answer,

“This is not what the Bible teaches. As we noted in the preceding paragraph, the Son was created. Obviously, then, he had a beginning whereas Jehovah God has no beginning or end.”2

Christ, to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, is not eternal. That is, He had a beginning, and there was a time when He did not exist. Therefore, He is not God, but does this square with the Biblical witness of John 1:1? We maintain that it does not.
The New World Translation

While this article does not have within its scope a detailed treatise on how to pick and choose a good Bible translation, it should be noted that Jehovah’s Witnesses use a very faulty and inaccurate Bible translation known as The New World Translation (NWT). How does their translation render John 1:1? According to the NWT, this verse is translated as,

“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

Notice the major difference between the NASB and the NWT’s translation of third clause: “ . . . and the Word was a god.” This is a significant shift between the two translations. The question needs to be asked: Is this variation warranted?

Now, of course, if we want to decide which translation is the best, it only makes sense to go to the original language in which the writers of the New Testament wrote. Since Koine Greek was the language in which John wrote his Gospel, it would do us well to look at how John wrote and arranged his words in this verse.
A Sound Exegesis of the Text

It would be best to look at John 1:1 in parts and taking into account each clause one at a time. Once we understand what the text says and what John meant for it to mean, we can better compare that with what Jehovah’s Witnesses claim about the Person of Christ. What does the Greek say, then?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Now for many, Greek is still Greek. An arrangement of unknown symbols means nothing to the average Christian, but what we would like to do is take you, the reader, through this simple, yet profound verse--one word at a time--and all the while equipping you with the information needed in order to translate properly.
Clause #1

First, let’s look at the first clause of the verse:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

If we were to transliterate this Greek clause into English letters, the following would be the outcome:

En archē ēn ho logos

First, it should be noted that this clause is extremely significant and important. Before we begin our in-depth look into the whole of this clause, though, what do these words mean?

First, we will notice the words, “En archē” (Ἐν ἀρχῇ). “En” is a preposition, which is translated as “in." Archē, it should be noted, turns out to be an interesting word in light of the overall context of this passage. Archē can mean “a beginning,” “first place,” and/or “headship.”3 It would not be wrong to render this word as “chief.”

To better illustrate this word, it might be good to recall the word “archbishop.” We’ve often heard this word in church circles and particularly in reference to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastical hierarchy. The word “archbishop” comes from two corresponding Greek words, namely, archē and episkopos (meaning “bishop” or “overseer”). Therefore, “archbishop” means “chief overseer” or “chief bishop.”

So we can see from this example that “archē” is a word which brings the idea of “foundation” or “headship.” Within the context of John 1:1, we can better see from these definitions how this might make sense. “In the beginning was the Word . . . " We see that this part of the text refers to the foundation of the universe--that is, to its origin.4 As we can see, the word, “archē,” actually gives this idea of beginnings a “thicker” meaning than what we English speakers are used to, for it speaks of the “origin” and of the “foundation” of the universe. That is why, given the context of John 1:1, Bible scholars translate “En archē” as “In the beginning.”

The next part of the first clause is “ēn ho logos” (Gk: ἦν ὁ λόγος).

The word “ēn” is, no doubt, loaded with significance. It is a verb that conveys a ton of information and insight into the deity of Christ. As noted above, we have, so far, translated “En archē” as “In the beginning.” So, we see that, at the start of time, something was going on, or, more specifically, Someone existed. That is where “ēn ho logos” comes in. So what was going on “In the beginning?" We find that Christ was.

But first, what does “ho logos” mean? Logos simply but very profoundly means “word.” We also know that “the Word” is speaking about Jesus Christ. (It should be noted that all Biblical scholars hold to the idea that “the Word” is Christ).

The verb, “ēn,” (Gk: ἦν) is in the past tense. It is a third person, singular verb, which means “was." Without going into too much detail, it should be noted that, contrary to the English language, there are a couple of ways of rendering Greek verbs in the past tense.5 The first way is to render a verb in the imperfect tense, and the second way is the aorist tense. William Mounce defines the two tenses:

“The imperfect tense describes a continuous action usually occurring in the past, while the aorist . . . describes an undefined action usually occurring in the past.”6

The word, “ēn,” in John 1:1 by way of Divine inspiration happens to be in the imperfect tense. This means that “the Word” (i.e., Jesus Christ) was “continuously in existence before the beginning.”7 Furthermore, the imperfect tense of was has inherent within it the idea of eternal past existence. That is, there is no beginning to the Word, Jesus Christ.

So far, we have the first clause translated: “In the beginning was the Word . . . ” We have seen that, at the beginning or creation of the universe, the Word was already in existence. He was existing at the creation of the universe and was existing continuously into eternity past. How much significance one little Greek verb makes!
Clause #2

From the previous section, we have shown that Christ--the Word--always existed. In other words, there was never a time when Christ was not in existence. This section draws our attention to the second part of the verse of John 1:1.

καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν

Once again, if we were to transliterate this Greek clause into English letters, the following would be the outcome:

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon

We already know how to translate a few of these words. For example, “ho logos” means “the Word.” The verb, “ēn,” means “was.” But what do the other words mean?

“Kai” is a conjunction that means “and.” Therefore, “Kai ho logos ēn” can be translated as, “and the word was . . . "

But what about “pros ton theon?" “Pros” is another preposition that means “with.” Moreover, “ton theon” means “the God.” We can, therefore, translate this whole clause as “and the word was with God.”

John MacArthur sums up this clause rather well,

“ . . . John took his argument one step further. In His eternal preexistence the Word was with God. The English translation does not bring out the full richness of the Greek expression (pros ton theon). That phrase means far more than merely that the Word existed with God.”8

What, then, does this phrase mean? One commentator has said that the preposition “pros” is hard to translate.9 “It is equivalent to ‘was in relation with God,’ ‘stood over against,’ not in space or time, but eternally and constitutionally.”10

To make this clearer, it would do us well to turn back to John MacArthur, who, in his own commentary, quotes W. Robert Cook as saying,

“ . . . it ‘[gives] the picture of two personal beings facing one another and engaging in intelligent discourse.’”11

We can see, then, that not only was Christ preexistent but also He was in loving fellowship with the Father. “Pros ton theon” actually shows the eternal distinction between the Father and the Son. This text proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father. They are, as it were, eternally distinct.

So far, then, we have translated the first two clauses of John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God . . . ”
Clause #3

Finally, we have come to the very last clause of John 1:1:

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

As done in the previous sections, we will transliterate this clause into English letters:

kai theos ēn ho logos

Since we already recognize these words, let’s quickly translate them:

“and God was the word”

Is this a good translation of the Greek? No, it is not. First, it should be observed that “logos” not “theos” is the subject. Why? Because theos does not have an article in front of it like logos does. The clause is not “kai ho theos ēn logos.” John recorded this differently. He, under divine inspiration, writes, “kai theos ēn ho logos.”

“Ho logos,” then, is the subject since it contains the definite article. This is why, in our translation, we would place “logos” before “theos.”12

Furthermore, if John had written, “ho theos ēn ho logos,” then he would be advocating Sabellianism, which basically states that God the Father and God the Son are one and the same, thus denying the Trinity.13 If he would have constructed his sentence that way, we could have roughly translated it as, “The God was the Word.” But this is not what John records. John actually leaves out the article from theos. Even more so, if John had stated, “The God was the Word,” he would have contradicted the second clause, which states that the Word was with God. This would have denied the eternal distinction between the Father and the Son. After all, if the Son was the Father, then how could He have been distinct from Himself?

But since there is no article before theos, does that mean Jesus was “a god” and not “God." After all, John leaves out the article before theos. Should we then translate this as “the Word was divine” or “the Word was a god?" In short, are the Jehovah Witnesses right in doing this? After all, Jehovah’s Witnesses say that, “John 1:1 highlights the quality of the Word--that he was 'divine,' 'godlike,' 'a god,' but not Almighty God.”14

This is hardly the case. Under divine guidance, John actually constructs this clause to refute such an idea. As MacArthur rightly notes, if John had wanted “to say that the Word was merely in some sense divine [“a god”], he could have used the adjective theios (cf. 2 Peter 1:4).”15 But, as we can see, he does not use theios at all. John is saying something more than “Jesus was ‘a god.’”

The only resulting conclusion is that Christ, being eternally distinct from the Father (refer to our discussion on clause two), was nonetheless God.
Embracing Mystery, Not Destroying It

There is one God. The Son is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is He the Son.

What Jehovah’s Witnesses (who are really modern-day Arians) want to do is abolish all mystery about God. Because the Trinity does not make sense, it must be wrong. So, after mistranslating Holy Scripture, they deceive themselves into thinking the Trinity is unbiblical. In the end, human reasoning has the final say for them.

But with the Triune God of the Bible, mystery is a good thing, and it should be embraced. After all, why would we, mere dependant humans, want to serve a God who is exhaustible and as one who can be figured out? To be sure, God has revealed Himself in Scripture, and He is known personally through Christ. But it is our job—as responsible exegetes of Scripture and as obedient children—to not allow that revelation of God to be distorted or repackaged into something nice and tidy.

Any divergence from what we know to be Biblical truth about the nature of the Godhead is heresy. It conveys to the world a false god and ultimately a false christ.

And a false christ does not save.

https://carm.org/the-word-and-the-watchtower-an-exegesis-of-john-1-1

Of course dolphinheart is such a perverter of the truth, that he called the Christian God:

dolphinheart:


your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God

johnw74:


The Son isn't the Father, you should read the OP again.

And concerning the verse you allude to, you will notice that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove,
and the Father said from heaven "this is my beloved Son"
There you have the the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit together at the same time,
the three persons in God. However this thread is about the Word being God, and not about the Son being the Father which He not,
He is God though, as the OP shows.

If the father was in heaven, the son on earth and the holy spirit descended from the heaven, how were the three entities still together and in one thing you call "God"?

Jesus is God and still one of the persons in God, how?