vooks:

But Truth is constant, else if it changes across culture and time then it is worthless


Very true, but we are not comparing women but DOCTRINE. Do you think DOCTRINE should change with time?


You are an idiot. If whatever Mohammed did 1400 years ago is inapplicable today, is it possible that Islam invented 1400 years ago is outdated?

Aisha still had her dolls when she was married

Question is whether this is worthy emulating. Is it or was Mohammed primitive

What an slowpoke! So would you gladly marry a 6 year old if she 'consented' and there was no law against that?

She was very mature and that's why she had dolls when she was married.

vooks:


M0ron are you literate?

He-goat see for yourself!

... the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated....

Also

These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin", are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.

So Mr man just like the hadith in which some are untrue, the same goes to the apocryphal. I'll appreciate it if you can prove specifically that the ages of Mary and Joseph are fabricated or untrue. Please do that rather than pouring spit on my phone screen!

vooks:


Fool, do you know the difference between 23 and 6?
Do you know how detestable marrying a toddler and waiting for her organs to mature enough to bear your joystick? Do you know how primitive it is to masturbate on a baby girl's thighs as you await for her to 'mature'?

This Christians are pervert, must everything be about sex?! Whenever you mention marriage to Christians their minds automatically translates sex, when you mention pole strippers pole is what their brain translates. Na Wa for you o!

Demmzy15:
He-goat see for yourself!

... the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated....

Also

These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin", are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.

So Mr man just like the hadith in which some are untrue, the same goes to the apocryphal. I'll appreciate it if you can prove specifically that the ages of Mary and Joseph are fabricated or untrue. Please do that rather than pouring spit on my phone screen!

HaneefahRN:

I will overlook all d other stories in ur write up since I'av given my reply.
But I need to change a notion wc actually shows how ignorant u are of Islam. Ibn Ishaq and Al- Tabari, are know to be very unreliable, with narration of very weak and fabricated hadiths, and stories abt the Prophet. Muslims take the Sira of Ibn Ishaq wt a pinch of salt, since it is well known for falsehood and gathering narations with unreliable sources or even fabricated ones. The Muslim critics are always quick to pick up his and Tabaris work thinking they av points, but we don't take them serious.

Demmzy15:
This Christians are pervert, must everything be about sex?! Whenever you mention marriage to Christians their minds automatically translates sex, when you mention pole strippers pole is what their brain translates. Na Wa for you o!

true2god:
I never quoted ibn ishaq or al-tabari, what I quoted is sahih bukhari concerning the mohammed sahabas who all concured to the fact that apostates should be killed, in lines with the instructions (or approval) of the islamic prophet. And of course saudi arabia, iran, pakistan understand this hadiths perfectly and are applying it, so I am not blanketly condemning anyone\group.

Can you please provide the list of 'authentic' hadiths we can quote so that we dont misunderstand islam\muslims any more?

vooks:


[s]Neanderthal
First rule of logic: you can't prove a negative
I can't prove that Mary and Joseph age WERE NOT X and Y respectively; the burden of proof is on you to prove your own claims. If you claim they were x and y, you prove it. Making claims and then ordering me to disprove them is asinine. Substantiate your claim.[/s]

[s]Is it in doubt that Aisha was married off at 6 and Mohammed raped her at least officially from the age of 9? [/s]

vooks:


You are brain damaged
Am quoting Islamic sources and practices and you think am the pervert?

https://www.nairaland.com/2746875/prophet-mohammed-practised-thighing-child#40168799

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKHewLgVUBk

true2god:
Kool down sister, I dare to differ from you on certain issues. Whether you like it or not, apostasy law is an integral part of islamic law and jurispundence except if you are ignorant of islam. All conservative musli

m countries apply apostasy law by killing whoever leaves islam, either officially or extra-judicial killing, the goal is the same (KILL APOSTATES AND CRITICS OF ISLAM) and the invoke the hadith and the sunnah for their actions.

You may not like it but it is part of islam and that what make islam the most brutal and dangerous religion on planet earth.

daretodiffer:


Ayaff heard

Can you please take the highway now?

dorox:

It appears that we are on the same side on this issue. Your argument should be with your fellow muslims on this thread that have openly supported these practices in the name of the religion that you claimed is opposed to such barbarity.

true2god:
I never quoted ibn ishaq or al-tabari, what I quoted is sahih bukhari concerning the mohammed sahabas who all concured to the fact that apostates should be killed, in lines with the instructions (or approval) of the islamic prophet. And of course saudi arabia, iran, pakistan understand this hadiths perfectly and are applying it, so I am not blanketly condemning anyone\group.

Can you please provide the list of 'authentic' hadiths we can quote so that we dont misunderstand islam\muslims any more?

daretodiffer:


Idi.it. Where was it mentioned that Bukhari is 100% reliable? If you took time to gather the Hadiths, did you also take your time to examine their reliability?

Oh wait! You don't care. Once it is an Hadith, it is an Hadith. You know more than we do, dunt you. It is futile aguing with a nincompoop who has taken a stand.

I am out!

true2god:
On the issue of the ha-deaths, muslims should throw them into the dust-bin for exposing many evils and stupidities in islam since many muslims, especially nigerian muslims, are now denying the ha-deaths. If muslims say an ha-death is not reliable, or weak, why are they still in islamic book-stores and libraries, only to deny them whenever some evil contents are exposed by non-muslims. Is this not deceptions and hypocrisy and lies?

If ha-deaths, which provide guidelines for over 90% of islamic laws and practices, are so disjointed and unreliable, how reliable is islam as a religion? My sister think, pls you your brain and think. Dont keep your brain signal in saudi barbaria, use it where you are.

daretodiffer:


Will you please die

You can take some pills

You can jump off the balcony

Please die

true2god:
I wont die but live to an old age. I thought you said you are out, why are you still responding? If you cant bear the truth concerning your religion (that is islam) then dont come to nairaland religion section because we will keep exposing the lies and evils of islam, using islamic sources and materials.

daretodiffer:

You are a r.etard and understanding ret.arded logic is kind trying to squeeze water from a stone.
Are you afraid of death?

Pyrrho:
Would you just shut your trash, and for once be sincere to your intelligence.

You can't be a grown up fool. I'm sure you have no reason to be stvpid accept for being stvpid.

Would you kill your children for apostasy?

Demmzy15:

I didn't abuse, so I'll like you respect that fact. Firstly, ask parisbookaddict I don't accept translations from MEMRI TV, so I'll appreciate you give me the original video. Don't think I'm a fool.

Secondly, I clicked the nonsense link and I found none of the above assertion, so make it more clear and glaring. I appreciate in future!

true2god:
I never quoted ibn ishaq or al-tabari, what I quoted is sahih bukhari concerning the mohammed sahabas who all concured to the fact that apostates should be killed, in lines with the instructions (or approval) of the islamic prophet. And of course saudi arabia, iran, pakistan understand this hadiths perfectly and are applying it, so I am not blanketly condemning anyone\group.

Can you please provide the list of 'authentic' hadiths we can quote so that we dont misunderstand islam\muslims any more?

HaneefahRN:

I never said u quoted their works, but u made mention that Muslims depend a lot on their works.
U av to know that to consider an hadith authentic, the chain of narrators must be strong.
Although these hadiths seemingly seem strong due to the credibility of Sahih Bukhari bt they actually aren't due to faults in their chains of transmission.
First and most important the Quran has no backing for killing apostates and made it clear there is no compulsion in religion.
It is also shown that the authentic words of the prophet prescribes no punishment for apostasy, 'refer to former post'. The hadiths wt prescribed punishment are queried.
Weak links are:
- If the prophet had wanted to give a law concerning apostasy prescribing such serious punishment as death he wld av made it known to a large no of companions and pple who wld then pass it to successors. These hadiths wld av been widely reported by many companions not just one.
- Most of the early Muslim scholars seem to be unaware of the penalty. Notable are Ibrahim Al-Nakha'i (a teacher to imam Abu-Hanifah) and also Sufyan Al-Thawri who ruled that apostates shld be invited into Islam as long as they repent. These were leading hadith experts and wld av followed the penalty if it had been prescribed
- These hadiths aren't as strong as an hadith prescribing death shld. Considering the chain of transmission. The hadith is narrated only by Ayyub Al-Sakhitiyani in 3rd generation, only Ikrimah in 2nd generation and Ibn Abbas in 1st generation. In addition there are some of these narrations wt no companion in the isnad. This means only few pple narrated in the 2nd and 3rd generation, and only one wt Ibn Abass is quoted.
Worthy of note is Ibn Abass was just a boy of 13yrs at the death of the Prophet, so it's inconceivable tht the Prophet will give a law prescribing death to only a 13yrs old to transmit.
- the reliability of Ikrimah is questioned and has been seen as not trustworthy by notable hadith scholars. He was known to attribute false traditions to Ibn Abass. Notable hadith collectors like Muslim and Malik disliked mentioning him as a narrator unless supported by more trustworthy narrators to strengthen the chain. And this is why none of these hadiths can be found in Muslim

daretodiffer:


He is not convinced

He knows the Hadiths but have no idea what makes them weak or maybe he does but cannot be bothered.

I am sorry but you have to know this, the only people you can engage are people who are ready to listen, reflect and learn. He and the other foo.ls are not ready to do any.

HaneefahRN:

Abi jare my sister. I'm tired sef, I'av got to sleep soon. They wld keep asking questions bt when answered wld refuse it or start imagining faults.
Tht was why I ignored the Vooks guy, I dislike pple who can't chat or discuss in a mature, intelligent and civil manner, becos I can't be forced to come down to their lvls.
I just gave this guy a chance, if he bleeps up too, I'm out.
Av a gud nyt sis, may Allah protect us.

Demmzy15:

I didn't abuse, so I'll like you respect that fact. Firstly, ask parisbookaddict I don't accept translations from MEMRI TV, so I'll appreciate you give me the original video. Don't think I'm a fool.

Secondly, I clicked the nonsense link and I found none of the above assertion, so make it more clear and glaring. I appreciate in future!

Demmzy15:


Look here, I have no time for bullsh't! What were their ages in the Bible, I need an age. Don't speculate. No one said the apocryphal is totally false, a Christian like you said you can't look into the apocryphal for issues concerning your faith and the ages of mary and Joseph is definitely not about faith. So find me their ages! If you can't then stfu and learn, Mary and Joseph married at far age gaps.



I didn't start a discussion about Prophet Muhammad and Aisha with you but Mary and Joseph, give me their ages from the bible. Are they not human?! I'm interested in their ages!

These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin", are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, [size=18pt]as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God[/size]

HaneefahRN:

I never said u quoted their works, but u made mention that Muslims depend a lot on their works.
U av to know that to consider an hadith authentic, the chain of narrators must be strong.
Although these hadiths seemingly seem strong due to the credibility of Sahih Bukhari bt they actually aren't due to faults in their chains of transmission.
First and most important the Quran has no backing for killing apostates and made it clear there is no compulsion in religion.
It is also shown that the authentic words of the prophet prescribes no punishment for apostasy, 'refer to former post'. The hadiths wt prescribed punishment are queried.
Weak links are:
- If the prophet had wanted to give a law concerning apostasy prescribing such serious punishment as death he wld av made it known to a large no of companions and pple who wld then pass it to successors. These hadiths wld av been widely reported by many companions not just one.
- Most of the early Muslim scholars seem to be unaware of the penalty. Notable are Ibrahim Al-Nakha'i (a teacher to imam Abu-Hanifah) and also Sufyan Al-Thawri who ruled that apostates shld be invited into Islam as long as they repent. These were leading hadith experts and wld av followed the penalty if it had been prescribed
- These hadiths aren't as strong as an hadith prescribing death shld. Considering the chain of transmission. The hadith is narrated only by Ayyub Al-Sakhitiyani in 3rd generation, only Ikrimah in 2nd generation and Ibn Abbas in 1st generation. In addition there are some of these narrations wt no companion in the isnad. This means only few pple narrated in the 2nd and 3rd generation, and only one wt Ibn Abass is quoted.
Worthy of note is Ibn Abass was just a boy of 13yrs at the death of the Prophet, so it's inconceivable tht the Prophet will give a law prescribing death to only a 13yrs old to transmit.
- the reliability of Ikrimah is questioned and has been seen as not trustworthy by notable hadith scholars. He was known to attribute false traditions to Ibn Abass. Notable hadith collectors like Muslim and Malik disliked mentioning him as a narrator unless supported by more trustworthy narrators to strengthen the chain. And this is why none of these hadiths can be found in Muslim. He was known to be a khawarij, who blive and practised killing Muslims considered apostates and opponents of Ali. He was reported to av once said 'he wished he had a spear to kill all that had come for hajj this yr'
'They are all apostates'
- Many of the narrations av several differences from each other
The narrations I-III abt burning
I- we are not told whether Ali came to know Ibn Abass rejection.
II-Woe to Ibn Abass or some said 'Woe to Ibn Abass mother'
III- Ibn Abass said the truth
The word used to describe the pple 'burnt'
I- zanadiqah- atheists
II- apostate
III- pple who worshipped idols
We can see the hadith suffered changes and can't be trusted enof to base a law on.
- The hadith requires us to know Ali (a companion who had been wt d prophet for abt 23yrs) did nt knw d prophet's prohibition abt burning pple or ignored it, while Ibn Abass who only spent 3 yrs (10-13yrs) knew abt it. Even if this had supposedly happened the other companions wld av called Ali to order, and certainly such acts wld av been widely known by a lot of pple then and passed on to successors. But apart from this report, no other person reported such, and it was never seen in any book of Islamic history.
- 'Whoever changed his religion, kill him' appears rather careless in it's formulation and wasn't clarified nor elaborated in other hadiths. Usually laws were given in context and difficult to blive it came from the prophet
- These hadiths are mostly related to 3rd generation narrators like Ayyub, Qatadah, Zayh bn Aslam.
Zayd didn't give any source for the hadith while Qatadah narrated from a) Al-Hasanb) Al-Anas
This is however unlikely since they av a large no of studts bt only Qatadah narrated it, wc makes d isnad doubtful.
Conclusion- there is no basis for killing apostates in the Quran and the Prophet never killed any apostate. The hadiths claiming the penalty av weakness in their chains bt were gradually widely accepted by the 3rd generation was the appealing nature of loyalty to one's grp wc was founded in cultures and traditions then, the Jewish tradition for death to apostates,the Romans and later Christians who killed heretics and witches.

HaneefahRN:

I never said u quoted their works, but u made mention that Muslims depend a lot on their works.
U av to know that to consider an hadith authentic, the chain of narrators must be strong.
Although these hadiths seemingly seem strong due to the credibility of Sahih Bukhari bt they actually aren't due to faults in their chains of transmission.
First and most important the Quran has no backing for killing apostates and made it clear there is no compulsion in religion.
It is also shown that the authentic words of the prophet prescribes no punishment for apostasy, 'refer to former post'. The hadiths wt prescribed punishment are queried.
Weak links are:
- If the prophet had wanted to give a law concerning apostasy prescribing such serious punishment as death he wld av made it known to a large no of companions and pple who wld then pass it to successors. These hadiths wld av been widely reported by many companions not just one.
- Most of the early Muslim scholars seem to be unaware of the penalty. Notable are Ibrahim Al-Nakha'i (a teacher to imam Abu-Hanifah) and also Sufyan Al-Thawri who ruled that apostates shld be invited into Islam as long as they repent. These were leading hadith experts and wld av followed the penalty if it had been prescribed
- These hadiths aren't as strong as an hadith prescribing death shld. Considering the chain of transmission. The hadith is narrated only by Ayyub Al-Sakhitiyani in 3rd generation, only Ikrimah in 2nd generation and Ibn Abbas in 1st generation. In addition there are some of these narrations wt no companion in the isnad. This means only few pple narrated in the 2nd and 3rd generation, and only one wt Ibn Abass is quoted.
Worthy of note is Ibn Abass was just a boy of 13yrs at the death of the Prophet, so it's inconceivable tht the Prophet will give a law prescribing death to only a 13yrs old to transmit.
- the reliability of Ikrimah is questioned and has been seen as not trustworthy by notable hadith scholars. He was known to attribute false traditions to Ibn Abass. Notable hadith collectors like Muslim and Malik disliked mentioning him as a narrator unless supported by more trustworthy narrators to strengthen the chain. And this is why none of these hadiths can be found in Muslim. He was known to be a khawarij, who blive and practised killing Muslims considered apostates and opponents of Ali. He was reported to av once said 'he wished he had a spear to kill all that had come for hajj this yr'
'They are all apostates'
- Many of the narrations av several differences from each other
The narrations I-III abt burning
I- we are not told whether Ali came to know Ibn Abass rejection.
II-Woe to Ibn Abass or some said 'Woe to Ibn Abass mother'
III- Ibn Abass said the truth
The word used to describe the pple 'burnt'
I- zanadiqah- atheists
II- apostate
III- pple who worshipped idols
We can see the hadith suffered changes and can't be trusted enof to base a law on.
- The hadith requires us to know Ali (a companion who had been wt d prophet for abt 23yrs) did nt knw d prophet's prohibition abt burning pple or ignored it, while Ibn Abass who only spent 3 yrs (10-13yrs) knew abt it. Even if this had supposedly happened the other companions wld av called Ali to order, and certainly such acts wld av been widely known by a lot of pple then and passed on to successors. But apart from this report, no other person reported such, and it was never seen in any book of Islamic history.
- 'Whoever changed his religion, kill him' appears rather careless in it's formulation and wasn't clarified nor elaborated in other hadiths. Usually laws were given in context and difficult to blive it came from the prophet
- These hadiths are mostly related to 3rd generation narrators like Ayyub, Qatadah, Zayh bn Aslam.
Zayd didn't give any source for the hadith while Qatadah narrated from a) Al-Hasanb) Al-Anas
This is however unlikely since they av a large no of studts bt only Qatadah narrated it, wc makes d isnad doubtful.
Conclusion- there is no basis for killing apostates in the Quran and the Prophet never killed any apostate. The hadiths claiming the penalty av weakness in their chains bt were gradually widely accepted by the 3rd generation was the appealing nature of loyalty to one's grp wc was founded in cultures and traditions then, the Jewish tradition for death to apostates,the Romans and later Christians who killed heretics and witches.

vooks:


You just can't stand common sense and reason. You are excused