TomHagen:
No to all the questions. But the large number of testimonies cannot all be false; that's my reasoning.

Ahh, I see.

You see, the problem with all these miracle healings are that they are usually a lot of hear-say.

However, when you investigate and ask simple questions; they always seems to fall to ashes.




Tell me; do you know of anyone PERSONALLY who has been healed??

Or have you been healed personally yourself?

SirWere:


Ahh, I see.

You see, the problem with all these miracle healings are that they are usually a lot of hear-say.

However, when you investigate and ask simple questions; they always seems to fall to ashes.




Tell me; do you know of anyone PERSONALLY who has been healed??

Or have you been healed personally yourself?

I agree that there may be a lot of hearsay. But no one in his right mind would believe that EVERTHING that happens at RCCG camp or SHILOH are all fake and hearsay. The sheer volume of these testimonies make it impossible. How many can one possibly fake? If they were not real, there would have been scandals upon scandals, but we don't get them. Why? They are true, that's why.

TomHagen:
I agree that there may be a lot of hearsay. But no one in his right mind would believe that EVERTHING that happens at RCCG camp or SHILOH are all fake and hearsay. The sheer volume of these testimonies make it impossible. How many can one possibly fake? If they were not real, there would have been scandals upon scandals, but we don't get them. Why? They are true, that's why.

Ahh....and here we reach the crux of the matter.

It's a variation of Argumentum ad Populum/ Argumentum ad antiquitatem.....

Because a lot of people accept something as true does not mean it's true...

Yes, I agree that the number of miracles that are said to be performed at crusades and the like, is a bit much.

However, you will realize that most of these miracles, when you probe, can be grouped into three.

1) Deliverance from Withcraft : This is, invariably, the most common miracle everybody knows. Christians thanking God against witchcraft, demons, and all that. Deliverance against "wicked grandma's", "bad aunties" and the like...

While they no doubt boost the believers commitment; they cannot obviously be examined whether to be true or not


2) Testimony time : This is also a common type of miracle seen; especially in the more "refined" christians area.

These are the miracles like "God granted me a contract" or "God blessed with twins" and the like.

However, when you really look at it; most of these things can either be ascribed to coincidences or matter of timing,

Cannot be really established.


3) REAL VISUAL CHANGE MIRACLE : These are the types of miracle I'm searching for. The miracles of amputated hands being healed, blind from birth people receiving sight and people with terminal diseases (HIV/AIDS; Cancer, Parkison's Syndrome) getting cured.

Unfortunately; all these miracles have always be hearsay at best; fabrications at worst.

SirWere:


Ahh....and here we reach the crux of the matter.

It's a variation of Argumentum ad Populum/ Argumentum ad antiquitatem.....

Because a lot of people accept something as true does not mean it's true...

Yes, I agree that the number of miracles that are said to be performed at crusades and the like, is a bit much.

However, you will realize that most of these miracles, when you probe, can be grouped into three.

1) Deliverance from Withcraft : This is, invariably, the most common miracle everybody knows. Christians thanking God against witchcraft, demons, and all that. Deliverance against "wicked grandma's", "bad aunties" and the like...

While they no doubt boost the believers commitment; they cannot obviously be examined whether to be true or not


2) Testimony time : This is also a common type of miracle seen; especially in the more "refined" christians area.

These are the miracles like "God granted me a contract" or "God blessed with twins" and the like.

However, when you really look at it; most of these things can either be ascribed to coincidences or matter of timing,

Cannot be really established.


3) REAL VISUAL CHANGE MIRACLE : These are the types of miracle I'm searching for. The miracles of amputated hands being healed, blind from birth people receiving sight and people with terminal diseases (HIV/AIDS; Cancer, Parkison's Syndrome) getting cured.

Unfortunately; all these miracles have always be hearsay at best; fabrications at worst.

Does the fact that ''they cannot be examined'' render them untrue?

TomHagen:
Does the fact that ''they cannot be examined'' render them untrue?

I did not say that.

I merely said that since we cannot examine the miracle devoid of a supersition bias mind; we cannot determine whether it's true or not.


Hence; for all practical purposes; it is not useful in this context.

SirWere:


I did not say that.

I merely said that since we cannot examine the miracle devoid of a supersition bias mind; we cannot determine whether it's true or not.


Hence; for all practical purposes; it is not useful in this context.

So there's a chance that there are true? That there's a God somewhere who answers prayers?

TomHagen:
So there's a chance that there are true? That there's a God somewhere who answers prayers?

Of course there is.....

SirWere:

Of course there is.....

On a scale of 1-10??

TomHagen:
On a scale of 1-10??

3?? 2?? 5??

mordsith these atheists here just love arguments. Chicken-livered people, all of them. They would never do any of these things you challenge them to. I have said that the most ignorant perspective to look at life is through the eyes of an atheist. It's one thing to say I am not a christian or muslim because I find the stories in the religious books too fictitious and the practice of religion absurd but it is absolute stupidity to conclude, because of these reasons, that there is no God.
This is one of their celebrity leaders making a cool living, away from science, off atheists gullibility http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/08/the-bizarre-and-costly-cult-of-richard-dawkins/ who ironically describes religion as 'an organised licence to be acceptably stupid' but his congregation are not stupid.

TomHagen:
I agree that there may be a lot of hearsay. But no one in his right mind would believe that EVERTHING that happens at RCCG camp or SHILOH are all fake and hearsay. The sheer volume of these testimonies make it impossible. How many can one possibly fake? If they were not real, there would have been scandals upon scandals, but we don't get them. Why? They are true, that's why.

Few years ago,A former employee of christ embassy went to the sun newspaper's office to make a confessional statement.He told them how he used to arrange fake miracle 'actors' for Pastor chris during his church programs amongst other things. The story was a 'hit' because of the personality involved , and the newspaper company kept on publishing the excerpts of the interview for almost a week or more. So, when the newspaper company eventually called pastor chris to give his own side of the story, the pastor said the man in question was one of the mentally deranged patients he was treating in his church and he implored the newspaper company to disregard all what he told them. Lo and behold, that was the end of the whole 'saga'. So what can you say to that?

chacoonder:
Few years ago,A former employee of christ embassy went to the sun newspaper's office to make a confessional statement.He told them how he used to arrange fake miracle 'actors' for Pastor chris during his church programs amongst other things. The story was a 'hit' because of the personality involved , and the newspaper company kept on publishing the excerpts of the interview for almost a week or more. So, when the newspaper company eventually called pastor chris to give his own side of the story, the pastor said the man in question was one of the mentally deranged patients he was treating in his church and he implored the newspaper company to disregard all what he told them. Lo and behold, that was the end of the whole 'saga'. So what can you say to that?

I did not mention Christ Embassy. I am yet to hear of one scandal from, RCCG, Deeper Life, MFM, or Living Faith and they have been having miracles for decades, virtually on a weekly basis, both in and outside the country. What are the odds of that happening?

TomHagen:
I did not mention Christ Embassy. I am yet to hear of one scandal from, RCCG, Deeper Life, MFM, or Living Faith and they have been having miracles for decades, virtually on a weekly basis, both in and outside the country. What are the odds of that happening?

Unfortunately,these deceitful schemes are often attributed to those churches you've listed.

chacoonder:
Unfortunately,these deceitful schemes are often attributed to those churches you've listed.

Links please?

TomHagen:
Links please?

Google it yourself.. just punch in these queries; 'Redeemed Pastor' Winners Pastor' 'Christ Embassy Pastor' e.t.c you'll definitely get wha you're looking for. pls look beyond the miracle aspects.

chacoonder:
Google it yourself.. just punch in these queries; 'Redeemed Pastor' Winners Pastor' 'Christ Embassy Pastor' e.t.c you'll definitely get wha you're looking for. pls look beyond the miracle aspects.

Na so.

jonbellion:
if you want to believe in talking snakes and that the fact that a man named all the animals in the world, a woman was formed from a rib and that the earth was created in 2 days but all the billions of massive stars in our universe was made in one day that's great
There are people that have passed that stage
Most unbelievers don't deny the existance if a supreme being I personally don't know if a God exists or not but earthly religion is so contradictory that it is only rational to think that if there is a creator then it is not the one from the religious texts in anyway atall
I don't if there's a creator or not but the Abrahamic God is obviously made up
It's called Agnosticism. Most atheists wouldn't say they KNOW the universe came from nothing. The only atheist I know that has been so explicit was Stephen hawking and although I respect him alot I was disappointed at the statement. We don't know yet how the universe came to be but we are finding out religion is irrefutable methodology. Science is not

That's one problem with atheist; avoiding important parts of an argument.

Two verses of the Bible was quoted by the OP; describing the earth as hanging on nothing and also, stating categorically that the earth is spherical, and these men weren't scientists.

Now the question is; how could this be possible, since we all know that it was not too long ago that scientists came to know that the earth is spherical? Does it mean the Bible was recently edited, or does it mean the Bible isn't as old as it claims to be? I need answers

LaClicKLaBenDin:


That's one problem with atheist; avoiding important parts of an argument.

Two verses of the Bible was quoted by the OP; describing the earth as hanging on nothing and also, stating categorically that the earth is spherical, and these men weren't scientists.

Now the question is; how could this be possible, since we all know that it was not too long ago that scientists came to know that the earth is spherical? Does it mean the Bible was recently edited, or does it mean the Bible isn't as old as it claims to be? I need answers

well that's true but the church believed the earth was the centre of the universe based on the bible Galileo Galelei observed that it was not and the earth moved round the sun and not the other way round. It was considered foolish, absurd, false in theology, and heretical because it contrasted with the scriptures. In the end he was right

jonbellion:
well that's true but the church believed the earth was the centre of the universe based on the bible Galileo Galelei observed that it was not and the earth moved round the sun and not the other way round. It was considered foolish, absurd, false in theology, and heretical because it contrasted with the scriptures. In the end he was right

Did you realise that you didn't answer my questions?

Don't give me the story of what the Church did or did not do... I cited two pointed instances of people who knew thousand of years ago, what became scientific knowledge in recent history, and all I want you to do, is give me a logical reason how those people could have known what they knew.

I'm asking because, this further confirms to me that the Bible was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; if not, how could these men of thousands of years ago know what they knew, if the person who was responsible for making the earth stand on nothing did not reveal that to them? Except of course, you want to say the Bible was edited just recently or maybe there's something I am not getting right...

Please face the questions and disprove it, no digressing, these are two isolated instances that I want the atheist to straighten out...

If you digress, I won't reply anymore or talk about this.

LaClicKLaBenDin:


Did you realise that you didn't answer my questions?

if we found out the earth is four corner for instance, you'll point to a verse in the bible to prove that its right too

if it happens that the earth is flat, you'll also use that as confirmation of what's written in the bible too since the devil was able to show all the good places on the earth to Jesus at once (Matt 4:8-11) and he "siteth on the circle of the earth"
(Isaiah 40:22)


if we also find out that there are literal pillars used to uphold the earth, you'll simply point to a bible verse too
(Job 9:6)


lol

hopefulLandlord:


if we found out the earth is four corner for instance, you'll point to a verse in the bible to prove that its right too

if it happens that the earth is flat, you'll also use that as confirmation of what's written in the bible too since the devil was able to show all the good places on the earth to Jesus at once and he "siteth on the circle of the earth"


lol

Do you know what you sound like?

Please if you are not intelligent enough to answer my questions, hold your peace! I thought you believe that science has all the answers? Why don't you give me scientific answer why people who existed thousands of years ago, could know what became knowledge to modern science? If you can't do that, then hold your peace and admit you have been served a concrete proof that there's knowledge that transcends science.

Okay

LaClicKLaBenDin:


That's one problem with atheist; avoiding important parts of an argument.

Two verses of the Bible was quoted by the OP; describing the earth as hanging on nothing and also, stating categorically that the earth is spherical, and these men weren't scientists.

Now the question is; how could this be possible, since we all know that it was not too long ago that scientists came to know that the earth is spherical? Does it mean the Bible was recently edited, or does it mean the Bible isn't as old as it claims to be? I need answers

the first about the earth hanging on nothing is not far fetched for even an illiterate..
Looking at the sun and the moon..they both hang on NOTHING ...
so its a 50/50 warefa!

---

The second...didnt say the earth is spherical..but rather reads-----

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;that
stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and
spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

the bolded part of the end of the verse does not rhyme if the author had a spherical shape in mind,but is rather inline with the ancient hebrew conception of the earth..
The word used there to mean circle is (chug)--is also used in sir 43:12 to describe the rainbow and is also used in job 22:14 to describe the visible compass of the skies i.e --the vault/dome of the sky..
This verse/word is correctly translated as vault in the [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2040:21-23&version=NABRE]NAB VERSION[/url] ..
2)if isaiah had spherical in mind,he would have used words which were used to/denote sphericity at that time like he did in isaiah 22:18 and isaiah 59:5

3)if he had knowledge of a spherical earth..he would not have said that yahweh ''stretched out the earth in isaiah'' 44:24---word used here ''raqa'' means to flatten..
..this is your answer

LaClicKLaBenDin:


Did you realise that you didn't answer my questions?

ooh sorry. I just read it again didn't observe it well Well the bible doesn't really support a spherical earth it supports like a circular earth like a flat circular disk . Isaiah 11:12 refers to the "four quarters of the earth". The earth doesn't hang upon nothing it is held by gravity and angular momentum if it was floating it would be a rogue planet and all life on earth would not exist.Many verses throughout the Bible refer to a solid firmament. That means they thought the earth was like a circular disk not spherical. And what I told you earlier about the church persecuting Galileo Galelei

LaClicKLaBenDin:


Do you know what you sound like?

Please if you are not intelligent enough to answer my questions, hold your peace! I thought you believe that science has all the answers? Why don't you give me scientific answer why people who existed thousands of years ago, could know what became knowledge to modern science? If you can't do that, then hold your peace and admit you have been served a concrete proof that there's knowledge that transcends science.

lol, you sound intelligent

yet you couldn't get my message

the point here is that whatever science finds out is about earth would simply be in the bible

if its cube, you'll have references in the bible

if it has literal pillars, you'll have reference in the Bible

if it is flat circle, you'll have reference in the bible

can we now assume they're guessing? and one of them happens to be right?
circle of the earth (the earth is spherical) therefore its right, we can ignore the part about pillars and four corners, name it allegory and proverbs

I hope you're intelligent enough to know what I'm talking now

hopefulLandlord:


lol, you sound intelligent

yet you couldn't get my message

the point here is that whatever science finds out is about earth would simply be in the bible

if its cube, you'll have references in the bible

if it has literal pillars, you'll have reference in the Bible

if it is flat circle, you'll have reference in the bible

can we now assume they're guessing? and one of them happens to be right?

I hope you're intelligent enough to know what I'm talking now

Mehn, it's tiring having a sound argument with atheist...just imagine!

LaClicKLaBenDin:

Mehn, it's tiring having a sound argument with atheist...just imagine!

hello? I dropped your answer bro..

LaClicKLaBenDin:


Mehn, it's tiring having a sound argument with atheist...just imagine!

the points in my two previous posts are concise enough, if you find it tiring, its your problem

raphieMontella:

hello?
I dropped your answer bro..

So, we should start another argument based on the choice of description? Circle instead of Sphere, right? So, can you please provide us with graphic drawings of both shapes?

A single-line pencil drawing

LaClicKLaBenDin:


So, we should start another argument based on the choice of description? Circle instead of Sphere, right? So, can you please provide us with graphic drawings of both shapes?
A single-line pencil drawing

Nvm oga...i just wanted to get your attention/confirmation----you were shouting for answers before..

Have fun!

raphieMontella:

Nvm oga...i just wanted to get your attention/confirmation----you were shouting for answers before..

Have fun!

Lol... brother-man, don't run just yet....let's conclude naa....

.