The other time TV01 asked for a backing as to my statement that God has always been involved in politics! I believe democracy originated from the Bible! In fact the three tiers of Governement were institutionalised by God himself.

Personally some peeps here are going to question the validity of such a statement from me, and i will back it up with a scripture for now.

Further references can then be sort out from the proceedings of this great insight in the Word of God.

I got this revelation from Isaiah 33:22

22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Our JUDGE = Judiciary Arm of Government

Our LawGiver = Legislative Arm of Government

Our King = Executive Arm of Government.

As well just to input that in the forthcoming elections, The One who rules in the affairs of man is in control.

Be not afraid, be not dismayed, God is in Control!

Thank you for that verse!

We have some thinking heads on NL.

shahan:

We have some thinking heads on Nairaland.

Dats true,i think he must be a good politcian?

I shall hereby take your responses to me and my own response; seriatim.

Thank you for that verse!

You are great source of intellectual reasoning here!

We have some thinking heads on Nairaland.

You are the band leader hope you know that!

Dats true,i think he must be a good politcian?

If God is one, i dont see why christians should run away from politics.

@mrpataki,

This 'olodo rabata' is the one you praise as the band leader - and she couldn't have seen the same thing you scholarly brought our here?

Anyway, it's just about time that Christian leaders betake themselves to this responsibility of impacting social concourses in the corridors of civil politics. However, that should not be taken as a ticket for absolute theocracy - that is only possible at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hold up, wait a minute .
Before you all break your arms patting yourselves on the back and require tongue retreads from hailing each other, can I just say something please?

Thank you for your kind accomodation! Let me say this;

The God of the Bible, is not a democrat, He is a Sovreign!
Please, feel free to kiss-up and brown nose each other all the day long.
But don't reduce God (my God) to being a vote canvasser.

Nonsense and ingre-dent as uncle Titus would say.

Feel free to feel as sheepish as you please !

Na where dis bobo rediscover himself from??

Whoever has tried to reduce the Almighty to a democrat, huh?

And where does He canvass for politically democratised votes, hummm?

Abeg, where are the guys who are "guys" on this Forum - we need to bleach this TV01!
_{At least, until he's as white as the rest of us politicised Christians!}

If He was a poltician,He would be a Republican

He will be of right of centre persuasion

Socially conservative,econimically liberall

NB:Remember the 10commandments"Thou shall not use the name of thy Lord in vain"

TV01:

Hold up, wait a minute .
Before you all break your arms patting yourselves on the back and require tongue retreads from hailing each other, can I just say something please?

Thank you for your kind accomodation! Let me say this;

The God of the Bible, is not a democrat, He is a Sovreign!
Please, feel free to kiss-up and brown nose each other all the day long.
But don't reduce God (my God) to being a vote canvasser.

Nonsense and ingre-dent as uncle Titus would say.

Feel free to feel as sheepish as you please !

@ TV01,

Thank you for the much energy of excitement, you tried to display in showing your highly priced knowledge.

You have said it all man, He is a Sovereign King as you have rightly stated which makes him the Executive Arm of government!

TV01:

Hold up, wait a minute .
Before you all break your arms patting yourselves on the back and require tongue retreads from hailing each other, can I just say something please?

Thank you for your kind accomodation! Let me say this;

The God of the Bible, is not a democrat, He is a Sovreign!
Please, feel free to kiss-up and brown nose each other all the day long.
But don't reduce God (my God) to being a vote canvasser.

Nonsense and ingre-dent as uncle Titus would say.

Feel free to feel as sheepish as you please !

**Laughing hard**

I agree that the kingdom of heaven is not a democracy. Democracy has no place in the kingdom of God. There are no "votes" or "campaigns". Democracy is a man made concept for earthly government which can only be justified by the introduction of Adamic sin. The Almighty God is supposed to be the sovereign Lord of spiritual heaven AND physical earth.

If that was the case (no separation from God) the government of the earth would have been an image of the goverment in heaven.

However!

There is a government in heaven, and had sin not be introduced to man, there would be a reflecting earthly government.

Since sovereignty denotes supreme power , it means then (in my opinion) that God is sovereign over His government, including the 24 elders, all of whom are subject to and worship Him, our Sovereign Lord.


Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

However I do find the concocted theory of God being a politician funny Quite imaginative, but scripturally unsound.

Any corrections for me TV?

mrpataki,

i like your revelation, it makes sense. but perhaps you should rethink the idea of God being a politician. His sovereignty makes him exempt of political confinements and prejudices

trini_girl:

Any corrections for me TV?

My sister, how now? You know, it's not for me to grade people's posts. I say it as I see it, and I also stand to be corrected.

I wonder how people honestly think that God has or needs a political persuasion. The thinking that God is somehow a "Republican/Conservative", or in anyway politically inclined, or that God endorses/favours any political position, is to me some of the most unsound Christian thinking out there.

Hear this.
Whether it's left or right, republican or democrat, conservative or labour, it's not a real choice, it's two heads of the same snake. Play politics and get bitten, poisoned or both.

You have been warned.

Much love.

God bless

@mrpataki,

I will not necessarily call God a Politician as you have done. While I know that the freest form of government on earth today is derived from Isaiah 33:22, I would rather say that God uses politics to accomplish His will on earth.

Politics is all about negotiation and we are the once Jesus told to negotiate till He comes. Like my Pastor once said, "when God shows up on the scene, He never comes to take sides, He comes to take over." As the scripture has said "the earth has God given to the sons of men" and it is up to us to use the wisdom He has given us to negotiate our way to establishing His will on earth as it is done in heaven.

shahan:

Abeg, where are the guys who are "guys" on this Forum - we need to bleach this TV01!
_{At least, until he's as white as the rest of us politicised Christians!}

Like stubble, they are blown away  .

mrpataki:

You have said it all man, He is a Sovereign King as you have rightly stated which makes him the Executive Arm of government!

Are the three arms of democratic government not seperate & distinct? Your understanding of government, democracy and sovreignty (& in a sense God), all appear a bit fuzzy  .

TayoD:

I will not necessarily call God a Politician as you have done. While I know that the freest form of government on earth today is derived from Isaiah 33:22, I would rather say that God uses politics to accomplish His will on earth.

Ditto  !

TayoD:

Politics is all about negotiation and we are the once Jesus told to negotiate till He comes. Like my Pastor once said, "when God shows up on the scene, He never comes to take sides, He comes to take over." As the scripture has said "the earth has God given to the sons of men" and it is up to us to use the wisdom He has given us to negotiate our way to establishing His will on earth as it is done in heaven.

Negotiation makes it sound somewhat genteel doesn't it. Actually it's more about compromise.
Negotiate till He comes? The Lord said that? Please show me where!
So, we are to negotiate our way to establishing His will on earth as it is in heaven are we? Again, please expound how.

Psalm 2: 1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, 3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: 6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."

If I shake my head much more, I might do myself an injury!! Honestly  ?

Lord, pray open their eyes

Agreed. I may approve the idea that God is not a politician if given the understandinging of knowing that you are viewing it from the Nigerian context.

@ TV01,
Thanks again for your response. we will both understand this issue very soon. Again let me stress further that, no man has the monopoly of knowledge.
I believe the Kingdom is a Goverment Institution, whether you like that statement or not, or why would Lucifer want to overthrow God in his own foolish thinking.
The Scripture I quoted here was just to show that even in our present day circumstance, God still rules and the 3 tiers of Goverment upon which any sustainable country thrives on is actually derived from the Bible.

God bless.

mrpataki:

Agreed. I may approve the idea that God is not a politician if given the understandinging of knowing that you are viewing it from the Nigerian context.

1. Whoever it was seeking mrpataki's approval of their idea, you got his vote (no pun intended).
2. I would consider it folly to view God or scripture from "the Nigerian context". What is that anyway?

mrpataki:

Thanks again for your response. we will both understand this issue very soon. Again let me stress further that, no man has the monopoly of knowledge.

1. By Gods grace. Please share on
2. A tautology. In return, a verse; 1Corinthians 13:9 - For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

mrpataki:

I believe the Kingdom is a Goverment Institution, whether you like that statement or not, or why would Lucifer want to overthrow God in his own foolish thinking.

1. Believe what you will sir, your doctrinal positions are not on my immediate lists of likes or dislikes.
2. Pray tell us!

mrpataki:

The Scripture I quoted here was just to show that even in our present day circumstance, God still rules and the 3 tiers of Goverment upon which any sustainable country thrives on is actually derived from the Bible.

1. Another tautology!
2. Pray show us!

God bless

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

The nations around Israel had judges, lawgivers and kings.
The prophet was simply making a case for Theocracy.
He was simply saying, "we will have no illusion of democracy in this land because God is our dictator".

@ Seun,
I personally do not believe God is a dictator. Taking a closer look at that verse you quoted shows a pronounced statement "OUR", the "our" there goes a long way to imply that a group of people reached a con-census that indeed this is what God over the years represent to us.

If it were otherwise, that verse would have read God is a Judge, God is a lawgiver. . . . . . . .

Also, if it were so as a dictator, I guess God would have forced you into staying a Christian as you have decided to renounce your identity in Christ

@TV01

The God of the Bible, is not a democrat, He is a Sovreign!
Please, feel free to kiss-up and brown nose each other all the day long.
But don't reduce God (my God) to being a vote canvasser.

I think you got it all wrong!  Mrpataki has just blessed us with a verse that showed us some truths about the very nature of our God, for which we bless him.  I don't think we need to dwell on this for long, except if you don't believe in that scripture.

No one has said He is not the Sovereign.  In fact, as the Sovereign, He decides what He wills as He wills.  All mrpataki said was that He instituted democracy and has been involved in politics, except if you don't believe that there is no power except ordained of God.  There is surely a God in heaven who still rules in the affairs of men.

Going through the scriptures, you will find various accounts of how God showed His Sovereignty in diverse ways.  Sometimes, He speaks, sometimes through his prophets, at other times through lots.  Remember the heads of the tribes that worked with Moses were chosen (Deuteronomy 1 vs 6-13), Saul was chosen as king by lot (1 Sam. 10 vs 17-21).  Even the 12th apostle to replace Judas was by lot.  The first deacons were selected by the congregation out of many.  But it's still the same God in all.  He appointed the kings, set up the prophets and priests and instituted the judges.  For short, He instituted government.

This is what mrpataki meant.  However, I don't subscribe to His being a democrat or republican.  Those are human set-ups and God is not against any.  He can choose to work through any, He can set up and remove too.

@TV01,

Negotiation makes it sound somewhat genteel doesn't it. Actually it's more about compromise.
Negotiate till He comes? The Lord said that? Please show me where!
So, we are to negotiate our way to establishing His will on earth as it is in heaven are we? Again, please expound how.

Politics is about negotiation and not compromise. Maybe that is the fountain of your problems. A ruler/politician/government/administrator or whatever must be well taught and knowledgeable in the art of negotiation. You negotiate based on your values. Compromise sounds like a valueless player who seeks to get whatever he/she desires without recourse to a set of moral values.

Luke 19:13 - And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. The word 'occupy' in that verse is synonymous with negotiation. The Lord makes it clear from the parable that we are to trade and negotiate with what He has given us in other to obtain more. And before you jump to conclusion that it is all about commerce (which you also condemned in an earlier exchange), please read about how the parable was tied to the kingdom and government.

Are we not told that what happens in Govenrmnet can affect whether we as Christians will live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty? That should give you an idea how His will can be established on earth as it is in heaven. There are many examples of that today which I can make available to you as we go. Infact, the political negotiations of Jesus' day was instrumental to the scriptures being fulfilled.

In the multitude of counsel, there is safety!
Thanks TayoD and Analytical, you guys always inspire sincerely!

@ All,
I went to further study my bible and discovered that actually democracy is nowhere mentioned in the bible.

Thanks for the correction there anyway.

2Timothy 2:15 -Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I agree that the word democracy was not mentioned in the bible, but that does not remove the fact that God insituted government.  I am of the opinion He also gave us free will to determine how we want to be governed as a people, as long as truth and justice according to His will are not compromised.

Check the first reference I quoted above, of Moses:

Deut. 1:
9 “I spoke to you at that time, saying, ‘I am not able to bear the burden of you alone.
10 ‘The LORD your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day like the stars of heaven in number.
11 ‘May the LORD, the God of your fathers, increase you a thousand-fold more than you are and bless you, just as He has promised you!
12 ‘How can I alone bear the load and burden of you and your strife?
13 ‘Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.’
14 “You answered me and said, ‘The thing which you have said to do is good.’
15 “So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes.
16 “Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countryman, or the alien who is with him.
17 ‘You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’
18 “I commanded you at that time all the things that you should do.

I hope by politics and democracy you do not mean all the dirty compromises and bickering and all that, that is common to this generation?

Cheers.

Analytical:

I think you got it all wrong!  Mrpataki has just blessed us with a verse that showed us some truths about the very nature of our God, for which we bless him.  I don't think we need to dwell on this for long, except if you don't believe in that scripture.

Maybe I did get it all wrong.
However, even if I did, why do you conclude that "I don't believe in that scripture". I could just have a different interpretation. So, we only need dwell on it if I don't believe as you do, and if I don't, then I don't believe?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise Christianity had "guru's"! Oh silly me, of course you call them G/MOG's!

Analytical:

No one has said He is not the Sovereign.  In fact, as the Sovereign, He decides what He wills as He wills.  All mrpataki said was that He instituted democracy and has been involved in politics, except if you don't believe that there is no power except ordained of God.  There is surely a God in heaven who still rules in the affairs of men.

If He's sovreign, then there can't at the same time be democracy.
If you are referring to democracy amongst men, please show me where He instituted it.

You are simply bunching up and using different terms (biblical & no-biblical) synonymously.
"Instuituted democracy","Involved in Politics", "no power except ordained of God", "Rules in the affairs of men". It just makes for a "dogs dinner" of an analysis (no pun intended).

There you go again, questioning my beliefs! Questioning my beliefs in no way proves your arguement, plus it's bordering on the ad-hominem. Don't let's go there!

Analytical:

Going through the scriptures, you will find various accounts of how God showed His Sovereignty in diverse ways.  Sometimes, He speaks, sometimes through his prophets, at other times through lots.  Remember the heads of the tribes that worked with Moses were chosen (Deuteronomy 1 vs 6-13), Saul was chosen as king by lot (1 Sam. 10 vs 17-21).  Even the 12th apostle to replace Judas was by lot.  The first deacons were selected by the congregation out of many.  But it's still the same God in all.  He appointed the kings, set up the prophets and priests and instituted the judges.  For short, He instituted government.

Did I question God's sovreignty?
Your various examples have no bearing on the point in question. God is not a politician. He doesn't go to anyone to request for a mandate, for instruction, for counsel, for understanding or for power.

The fact that God instituted order, hierarchy and government. Does not mean he instituted democracy or is involved in politics.

I must say, I've quite enjoyed your posts in the past, but I don't see this as one of your better efforts.

God bless

@ TV01,
You seem to like to pick on peoples point and address it as being weak while not offering your angle of view to it.

TV01:

Maybe I did get it all wrong.
However, even if I did, why do you conclude that "I don't believe in that scripture". I could just have a different interpretation. So, we only need dwell on it if I don't believe as you do, and if I don't, then I don't believe?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise Christianity had "guru's"! Oh silly me, of course you call them G/MOG's!

Please could you give us your own interpretation as to the scripture?

TV01:


If He's sovreign, then there can't at the same time be democracy.

Please go to the scripture and search out where your statement above hold for a surety.

TV01:


The fact that God instituted order, hierarchy and government. Does not mean he instituted democracy or is involved in politics.

I must say, I've quite enjoyed your posts in the past, but I don't see this as one of your better efforts.

I beg to differ here, God has been present and will always be present in politics.

I have told you earlier TV01, No man has the monopoly of knowledge!

If you don't understand the politics, government side God, pray that your eyes of understanding be opened rather than throwing stones of under-valued knowledge at people.

God bless

TayoD:

Politics is about negotiation and not compromise. Maybe that is the fountain of your problems. A ruler/politician/government/administrator or whatever must be well taught and knowledgeable in the art of negotiation. You negotiate based on your values. Compromise sounds like a valueless player who seeks to get whatever he/she desires without recourse to a set of moral values.

Really? please show me where (how even!) politics is played without compromise  .

And if all politicians are not righteous, morally upright and selfless, than any supposed values are compromised. As politics is played out in a worldly arena, to worldly rules under the aegis of the god of this world, politics is not just compromising, it is utterly corrupt.

TayoD:

Luke 19:13 - And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. The word 'occupy' in that verse is synonymous with negotiation. The Lord makes it clear from the parable that we are to trade and negotiate with what He has given us in other to obtain more. And before you jump to conclusion that it is all about commerce (which you also condemned in an earlier exchange), please read about how the parable was tied to the kingdom and government.

Please feel free to to continue to use scripture to validate your two overarching imperatives. Politics(power) & Money (financial prosperity). Why do some people think that God can only provide on the back of their material success, or reign when they have delivered political power to Him? Personally, I think they are just using the scriptures to validate their lust for and love of the earthly.

TayoD:

Are we not told that what happens in Govenrmnet can affect whether we as Christians will live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty? That should give you an idea how His will can be established on earth as it is in heaven. There are many examples of that today which I can make available to you as we go. Infact, the political negotiations of Jesus' day was instrumental to the scriptures being fulfilled.

Like I just said  ?

We are told to affect governments vertically (by our prayer upward), not horizontally (by political agitation).

Go on then, provide yor examples. I'm right here!

God bless.

Analytical:

I agree that the word democracy was not mentioned in the bible, but that does not remove the fact that God insituted government. I am of the opinion He also gave us free will to determine how we want to be governed as a people, as long as truth and justice according to His will are not compromised.

Exactly. Government does not necessarily mean democracy! And God effects His will whatwever system is in place, regardless of what the sons of men will to do. God is Sovreign!

@TV01

I don't get it.  Where did I go wrong?  I have not said I'm a guru or whatever you called me.  Neither did I say you did not believe.  I used 'except if you do not believe in that scripture'.  The emphasis on the if and that scripture.  I was referring to the truth of that scripture.

I posted a rejoinder about the same time you replied.  Please go over what I wrote again.  It seems I misunderstood what mrpataki wrote earlier.  If by saying politics and democracy, he meant government, then God instituted it.  If however, what he meant by politics and democracy is the compromise and questioning of God's authority and mandate, then maybe I misunderstood him and I thought i made that clear.

The fact that God instituted order, hierarchy and government. Does not mean he instituted democracy or is involved in politics.

God is sovereign and does not request mandate from anyone, I submit.  Please read my post (#23) just above yours, I corrected myself that God instituted government.  However to suggest He is not involved in politics is to underrate His sovereignty!

TV01:


We are told to affect governments vertically (by our prayer upward), not horizontally (by political agitation).

Do you mean to tell me that Christians are not to be involved in politics?

@TV01

We are told to affect governments vertically (by our prayer upward), not horizontally (by political agitation).

Go on then, provide yor examples. I'm right here!

It's not by our prayer alone that we can affect governments.  People of God can and should affect governments horizontally too.  Your use of political agitation is more on the militant side, which doesn't have to be.  God has always had His people in governance and politics, to carry out his agenda, deliver His people and rule in righteousness.

And God effects His will whatwever system is in place, regardless of what the sons of men will to do. God is Sovreign!

This borders on fatalism, what will be will be.  Should we then fold hands and expect the Soveriegn God to come down and do what we should do ourselves?

Remember what He said in Proverbs 29:2

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn

Since you require examples of people that affected governments horizontally by being involved (doesn't have to be agitation as you put it), where then do you place Joseph, Daniel, Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra etc.

It would interest you to know that Esther went through a selection process before she could become queen.  Thank God for her involvement in the politics of the land, coupled with prayer and fasting, through which God delivered His people from extinction.

While we pray, there also has to be God's people in place to affect policies and decisions that will serve to bless people.  What shall we say of Daniel, the 1st of 3 presidents in Babylon, through whom an unbelieving king passed a decree that only the God of Daniel shall people worship.  Would you know that Daniel and his 3 friends went through a rigorous selection process before they could be part of that government in a foreign land.  Their exploits we all know.

Or is it Joseph we should talk about, as the prime minister of Egypt, through whom God preserved the world in time of famine?  If more than anything else, I think we need more of such set people for our time- people that will carry the banner of Jesus high in the high echelons of power and politics and bear their influence upon a crooked world and establish righteousness and justice in the land.

Make God give us such in our generation!

Once upon a time, the military was also our judge, lawgiver, and governor. That's just the definition of dictatorship.