@Shahan,

Thanks for your input. I have requested TV to show us from scripture where politics is expressly forbiden but he keeps dodging this in his characteristic manner.

I wish he'd employ the same principle in every area of his life. If he does, then we won't find him using the internet, riding cars, trains and even flying an aeroplane. The reason being that the Bible did not mention any of these specifically.

@TV01,

Again, election validates nothing. A vote for her was not necessarily a vote for Christianity.

I never implied voting a Christian into power is synonymous with voting for christianity. This proves you must be arguing with your thoughts and not following our discussions here.

A vote for a "Christian politician" does not equate to a vote for Christ or a soul won.

Same answer as above. However a vote for a Christian means an opportunity for a Christian to witness for Christ in our Government.

You don't have to be a politician to adopt children. But it is laudable Christian witness.

A witness that the whole nation heard about. She sure is a city on a hill that cannot be hid. Due to this Christian witness, her race was one of the most publicised in the last election with the name of Christ mentioned almost at every corner.

The bishops are compromised by making common cause with those who have a different agenda and a different Lord.

So what are you saying? That we should have nothing to do with unbelievers? Pal said if that were the case, then we will need to go out of the world altogether. Tell me, do you have unbelievers in your office working together on the same project? If so, then you are compromised by your own principles.

For the benefit of all (including myself), let me restate my overall position.

I am not suggesting all Christian engagement with the world is by mandate as such, but a clear reading of the scriptural narrative gives very strong pointers on certain areas. I believe that the nature of  political discourse and the underlying spiritual dynamic make it all but impossible for a Christian to seek political authority via the normal worldly channels without compromise. I believe this is borne out by scripture.

I am not in any way suggesting this is a universal template for all Christian activity or engagement with the world. Neither am I saying  passivity is the one size fits all answer. Again, let me stress I am being very particular about politics as I defined it earlier. Civil service is not politics. Christian social participation is not politics. And Christians/Christian bodies need to be wary of the fact that politicians/the state/governments, often court them, with a jealous/wary eye on the influence they exert.   

To keep our witness pure, I don’t see us aligning or making common cause with them. It will ultimately compromise us and damage our witness. Let me just add, I see the state as one of the forces ranged against Christianity. I see this in scripture, history and contemporary times. The establishment of state churches (in democracies, monarchies, dictatorships etc etc), is a way to control, compromise and oft times co-opt Christian witness for the benefit of the state. As long as the state can do this, they are content to let us play church.

As soon as we become a clear voice (light on a hill), with an uncompromised gospel message (salt & seasoning), we challenge the status quo and the prevailing power structure. That is to proclaim God and His Christ, a new, different and better kingdom. It’s at this juncture that the State (noting the underlying spiritual dynamic I mentioned earlier), turns on Christianity. Oppressing and persecuting the saints.

The situation in China is a point in question. Let me say something categorical here. Where there is pure Christian witness, there is oppression of the saints/church by the state (which is a different, contrary kingdom, in direct confrontation to the one being proclaimed by the true witness of the church). Do you really believe that there is strong Christian witness in any Western nation? Or in any African one?

This is true through scripture and through history. Look for the three players. The State, compromised/false religion, and the true witness. Think Ahab, Jezebel and Elijah. See Herod/Herodias, the Jewish religious establishment & John the Baptist.

I think if one can see the “big picture” scenarios as spelt out in scripture, then ideas such as “influencing the world” and “being a witness for Christ via political position” will be understood as being misguided at best. What the enemy wants is for us to engage him/the world, on his/their terms, using his/their structures.

I see the ultimate outworking of this typified by the LovePeddler & the Beast of Revelation. The Beast I believe represents various aligned states/seats of power/thrones/governments. The LovePeddler is compromised/false/ecumenical religion. At first partnering (that is committing adultery) with the state and finally being devoured by it.

That is my position. But of course I stand to be corrected in part or whole!

God bless

Chei! I've been missing out on good debate here! I thought this was going to be boring! 

TV01 vs TayoD.  

Wait wait, let me get some popcorn and come back.

_{**trini rushes to kitchen and shoves corn in microwave**}

TV01, thanks for restating your position.  As much as I respect your right to have your opinion, however, I still have a problem with the position.  Statements like these are part of my concern for this your gospel of segregation (no pun intended):

I believe that the nature of  political discourse and the underlying spiritual dynamic make it all but impossible for a Christian to seek political authority via the normal worldly channels without compromise. I believe this is bourn out by scripture.

I think if one can see the “big picture” scenarios as spelt out in scripture, then ideas such as “influencing the world” and “being a witness for Christ via political position” will be understood as being misguided at best. What the enemy wants is for us to engage him/the world, on his/their terms, using his/their structures.

No Sir!  I will agree if you say it's difficult for a Christian, but to say it's impossible is to go off the limits.  Please like others have asked, can we see your scriptural references that support this your position, since it is bourne out of scriptures?  Whatever is wrong in influencing the world through and being a witness for Christ via political positions?  It is this kind of reasoning that has rendered us so ineffective and waned our influence to truly be a salt and a light in the world, according to our calling!

May I ask, what does it even mean to be a christian?  Does it mean we are some kind of aliens who had no business being in the world?  Should a christian remain so aloof and unconcerned with the world around him, while on his way to heaven?  That will not be the gospel.  A christian is someone who was blood bathed and redeemed, translated from the kingdom of darkness into that of light, thereby removing the world from him, then put back into the world to affect and occupy till the One who purchased him comes back.

While He still tarries, we are under a mandate here to occupy.  We have relinquished this mandate long enough and that is why the enemy keeps deluding us that it is not possible to do.  I am not preaching a theocracy here- you cannot have that until He comes to establish his earthly kingdom- but an involvement in everyday affair on planet earth.  The early church had so much impact because of it's everyday influence in the market place, waterside, politics, business, even in prison yard!

Hear what the scripture says in Isaiah 9 vs 6:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Don't let us submit to the lie of the devil, thereby cheating us of what is ours by being indifferent, after all our Lord is the One that has the government upon His shoulder, whether through the civil service or political participation!  We are the people of His pasture and constitute His body.  Who then are we to say otherwise.  (By the way, the shoulder is part of the body!)

He has not told us our walk (whether in business or government) is going to be easy.  It wasn't easy for Esther who said if 'I perish I perish' nor for Daniel who purposed in his heart not to defile himself.  But these stood, even in the midst of opposition and mischeivous plots, as shinning lights in their generations.  Please note that participation in government is not synonymous with the apostasy of a state religion.

What then is the conclusion of the matter: whatever vocation you are in, be it in government or busniess, be a shinning light for Christ, not only by what you say, but by your godly character.  Let your light so shine, that others will see your good works and glorify your father in heaven.

Peace.

I am not suggesting all Christian engagement with the world is by mandate as such, but a clear reading of the scriptural narrative gives very strong pointers on certain areas. I believe that the nature of  political discourse and the underlying spiritual dynamic make it all but impossible for a Christian to seek political authority via the normal worldly channels without compromise. I believe this is borne out by scripture.

Matthew 19:26 - But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Matthew 17:20 - and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Faith is the instrumentality to obtaining this kingdom as we see in the witness of Michelle Bachmann. Through faith, we can accomplish the impossible.

Hebrews 11:33 - Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

Again, let me stress I am being very particular about politics as I defined it earlier. Civil service is not politics. Christian social participation is not politics. And Christians/Christian bodies need to be wary of the fact that politicians/the state/governments, often court them, with a jealous/wary eye on the influence they exert.

Arent you shooting yourself in the foot here? How can you say politics is under the influence of the devil and you expect a Christian to serve as a Civil Servant under that same influence!!! It's like saying stealing is wrong, but it is okay to receive money from a thief. As you rightly said, Christains have great influence which we can exercise in a greater way through political power. Are we not here to influence our world? Isn't salt supposed to influence and preserve its environment? And by the way, Civil Servants are subject to political votes (and they lobby for votes) before they are confirmed to their positions.

To keep our witness pure, I don’t see us aligning or making common cause with them. It will ultimately compromise us and damage our witness. Let me just add, I see the state as one of the forces ranged against Christianity. I see this in scripture, history and contemporary times. The establishment of state churches (in democracies, monarchies, dictatorships etc etc), is a way to control, compromise and oft times co-opt Christian witness for the benefit of the state. As long as the state can do this, they are content to let us play church.

Your arguments seem very laudable and will easily deceive those self-righteous Christains whose focus is purely on heaven and forgetting they are here for a reason. The State a force arranged against Christians? I think not. I'd rather believe the Gospel according to Paul than the 'gospel' according to TV01 - Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The State is A Minister of God. How can the Minister of God be a force arranged against us. The history I see indicates the State doing the will of the 'church' and calling attention to Jehovah based on the witness of the Believers who participated in that government.
Daniel 6:26 - I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.
Esther 8:17 - And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

As soon as we become a clear voice (light on a hill), with an uncompromised gospel message (salt & seasoning), we challenge the status quo and the prevailing power structure. That is to proclaim God and His Christ, a new, different and better kingdom. It’s at this juncture that the State (noting the underlying spiritual dynamic I mentioned earlier), turns on Christianity. Oppressing and persecuting the saints.

How do we challenge the status quo? By flouting the constitution of the State and imposing theocracy on the State? Where did you get this notion from and at what stage are we to go on this confrontation? How many believers effected the changes during the times of Daniel and Esther? The entire biody of believers or just a few? Please answer these questions.

The situation in China is a point in question. Let me say something categorical here. Where there is pure Christian witness, there is oppression of the saints/church by the state (which is a different, contrary kingdom, in direct confrontation to the one being proclaimed by the true witness of the church). Do you really believe that there is strong Christian witness in any Western nation? Or in any African one?

So Daniel and Esther did not have a great witness for the State to have supported them! Infact your submission leads us to believe that even Jesus did not have enough Christians witness since Pontius Pilate and Herod knew little to nothing about him and never persecuted him. Was it not the religious body of his day that brought their influence to bear on the State to kill Jesus? Another believer used his influence on the State to obtain Jesus' body and give it a proper burial as required by scripture. In other words, politics is just a tool that can be used for good or for evil. It all depends on who weilds that political influence.

This is true through scripture and through history. Look for the three players. The State, compromised/false religion, and true witness. Think Ahab, Jezebel and Elijah. See Herod/Herodias, the Jewish establishment & John the Baptist.

The picture can not be clearer than this: "For he (the State) is the minister of God to thee for good"

I see the ultimate outworking of this typified by the LovePeddler & the Beast of Revelation. The Beast I believe represents various aligned states/seats of power/thrones/governments. The LovePeddler is compromised/false/ecumenical religion. At first partnering (that is committing adultery) with the state and finally devoured by it.

Why use scriptures you are not sure you rightly interprete to justify a position you can't sustain form scripture.

That is my position. But of course I stand to be corrected in part or whole!

I seriously doubt if you are open for correction!

I’m (unwisely according to conventional wisdom) fighting a battle on many fronts. Please don’t be upset if I don’t respond to each post individually. I will answer some/parts of some, and seek to add the depth to ensure a response to all. (This does not apply to mrpataki  !).

Analytical said:
TV01, thanks for restating your position.  As much as I respect your right to have your opinion, however, I still have a problem with the position.  Statements like these are part of my concern for this your gospel of segregation (no pun intended)

My response:
I don’t preach segregation. I champion Christian engagement on Christian terms, as mandated by the scriptures. I also made it very clear that in this instance I am addressing the specifics around Christians engaging in the political process with the aim of seeking worldly power/authority”

Can I say to all at this point, that I am more than willing to discuss, and will gladly state my case and my defense for it. I don’t mind a little bluster, caustic remarks, ad-hominem attacks, or even outright abuse. But could all rejoinders kindly desist from either mis-quoting me, or mis-ascribing things to me. Thanks.

Analytical said:
Whatever is wrong in influencing the world through and being a witness for Christ via political positions?  It is this kind of reasoning that has rendered us so ineffective and waned our influence to truly be a salt and a light in the world, according to our calling!

My response:
I thought I clearly spelt out what I thought was wrong, why it was wrong and what I feel the end of it will be. If there is anything specific you would like me to outline or discuss further, just ask.

No, it’s not this kind of reasoning that has rendered us ineffective. What has rendered us ineffective is an adulterated gospel, an impure witness and a compromised church.

Analytical said:
May I ask, what does it even mean to be a christian?  Does it mean we are some kind of aliens who had no business being in the world? Should a christian remain so aloof and unconcerned with the world around him, while on his way to heaven?  That will not be the gospel. A christian is someone who was blood bathed and redeemed, translated from the kingdom of darkness into that of light, thereby removing the world from him, then put back into the world to affect and occupy till the One who purchased him comes back.

My response:
The greater part of this section is the reason I made my earlier plea.

As for “affecting” “influencing” (as some have put it) and “occupying till He comes”, It’s beyond creative how a line from a parable can be interpreted (mis-?) to mean wholesale engagement in the world, on the worlds terms. To assume dominion over governments, territories and industries. Or to put it another way, it lets you do/pursue all the things unbelievers do, but guarantees success because its “in the name of Jesus, it glorifies God”. A sly way of pandering to fleshly/worldly desires (which also goes some way to explaining the religious organizational hierarchy in most denominations. Contrary to what is mandated in scripture, but a reflection of worldly values and mores).

The world and the form of it is passing away. It’s beyond salvaging, and past refurbishing. Our mandate, is to retrieve souls from the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light. Not to assume positions of authority or control in it. I believe I mentioned that the source of real authority in the kingdom of darkness is it’s ruler, whatever outward appearances may say. Like God, he does not share his glory, unlike God, he is happy to deceive you into thinking he will if it means you further his plans.

Analytical said:
While He still tarries, we are under a mandate here to occupy.  We have relinquished this mandate long enough and that is why the enemy keeps deluding us that it is not possible to do.  I am not preaching a theocracy here- you cannot have that until He comes to establish his earthly kingdom- but an involvement in everyday affair on planet earth.  The early church had so much impact because of it's everyday influence in the market place, waterside, politics, business, even in prison yard!

My response:
That old occupy chestnut! Please see above.

The mandate the church has relinquished is one too bear true and pure witness and too win souls. Again, please see previous.

You may not be preaching theocracy in the immediacy, but isn’t that’s an obvious outworking/goal of political engagement? Say you have (not that I think it’s feasible on worldly terms) a majority XT parliament, maybe a XT Prime Minister. Pray tell, how would you wield this power to the glory of God? The KOG is advanced by converts to the gospel, not conformity to the law

Analytical said:
Don't let us submit to the lie of the devil, thereby cheating us of what is ours by being indifferent, after all our Lord is the One that has the government upon His shoulder, whether through the civil service or political participation!  We are the people of His pasture and constitute His body.  Who then are we to say otherwise.  (By the way, the shoulder is part of the body!)

My response:
Submitting to the devil’s deceit comes when you play on his terms.

I note the reference to Is9:6. Misunderstood, misapplied, misinterpreted. If the government is on His shoulders, then presumably the governments of Iran, Korea, Russia etc, etc, are all part of the body? Or maybe you are saying that those govt’s should rightfully be run by XT’s somehow making that verse fit (but then again, only into dominion theology!)

Analytical said:
He has not told us our walk (wether in business or government) is going to be easy.  It wasn't easy for Esther who said if 'I perish I perish' nor for Daniel who purposed in His heart not to defile himself.  But these stood, even in the midst of opposition and mischeivous plots, as shinning lights in their generations.  Please note that participation in government is not synonymous with the apostasy of a state religion.

My response.
Easy walk? I guess it will be when we take control of state? Like I said, see China, where the state is persecuting XT's for a separate and uncompromising witness. If they were to endorse the government. They would cease to suffer persecution.

For the umpteenth time Neither Esther, nor Daniel where engaged in agitating for or actively seeking worldly politcal power/authority.

No actively seeking to gain and wield worldly political power is not synonymous with the apostasy of a state religion. It’s the horse to the state (which is false/compromised) religions rider. The Beast to her LovePeddler.

Thanks for engaging.

God bless

Hi TayoD, I would've thought you'd be in bed (or at a night vigil  ),

I said:
I believe that the nature of  political discourse and the underlying spiritual dynamic make it all but impossible for a Christian to seek political authority via the normal worldly channels without compromise. I believe this is borne out by scripture.

TayoD responded:
By quoting scripture saying God can do anything?
Presumably you read (if only cursorily) what I wrote? If you are hell bent on making a nonsense of the conversation, I am happy to desist.

With that in mind, I press on.

TayoD said:
Arent you shooting yourself in the foot here? How can you say politics is under the influence of the devil and you expect a Christian to serve as a Civil Servant under that same influence!!! It's like saying stealing is wrong, but it is okay to receive money from a thief. As you rightly said, Christains have great influence which we can exercise in a greater way through political power. Are we not here to influence our world? Isn't salt supposed to influence and preserve its environment? And by the way, Civil Servants are subject to political votes (and they lobby for votes) before they are confirmed to their positions.

My response:
A XT civil servant diligently serves his/her country within the limits of government legislation. As Daniel did, you can act in this capacity and refuse to compromise your faith where the state/it’s laws demand otherwise. Which is the choice Daniel wisely made.

“XT influence”? I prefer “XT Witness” And I distinguish between influence & power!

A XT civil servant has no political agenda. Seeking or accepting promotion based on skills and experience is one thing. Lobbying (if it means pandering in any way) is another.

TayoD said:
Your arguments seem very laudable and will easily deceive those self-righteous Christains whose focus is purely on heaven and forgetting they are here for a reason. The State a force arranged against Christians? I think not. I'd rather believe the Gospel according to Paul than the 'gospel' according to TV01 - Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The State is A Minister of God. How can the Minister of God be a force arranged against us. The history I see indicates the State doing the will of the 'church' and calling attention to Jehovah based on the witness of the Believers who participated in that government.
Daniel 6:26 - I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.
Esther 8:17 - And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

My response:
Firstly please articulate why XT’s are here! Please, not the "Occupy" chestnut! And tell me where is your focus? Colossians 3:1 - If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. An obsession with political power is a very real outworking of worldly values

Secondly, if the state is a servant/minister of God, why are you seeking to attain power,or to “influence”? Surely they are God’s servants and thus already influencing according to his will. Do you consider state sponsored wars, legalized gambling, prostitution and abortion to be God’s will? Using scripture in a “painting by number” exercise rarely produces cogent arguments!

Thirdly, The edicts in Dn6 & Es8, came about as a result of unabashed witness by those who feared and served God. Not by worldly means.

TayoD said:
How do we challenge the status quo? By flouting the constitution of the State and imposing theocracy on the State? Where did you get this notion from and at what stage are we to go on this confrontation? How many believers effected the changes during the times of Daniel and Esther? The entire biody of believers or just a few? Please answer these questions.

My response:
I think everyone (especially myself), who has contributed so far, whatever their persuasion, has eschewed the notion of a theocracy! Your arguments are appearing somewhat disjointed. A pure, unadulterated, uncompromised Christian witness, is what the world really needs. This will be in stark contrast to the deception of left/right democracy, or various other man-made ideologies, which are essentially different heads of the same snake. This witness is to be outside and separate from the state and not in competition for it’s authority, as our authority is from another (heavenly) source. Your reading my position as “imposing theocracy” clearly demonstrates your understanding & articulating things from a purely carnal/worldly mindset.

TayoD said:
So Daniel and Esther did not have a great witness for the State to have supported them! Infact your submission leads us to believe that even Jesus did not have enough Christians witness since Pontius Pilate and Herod knew little to nothing about him and never persecuted him. Was it not the religious body of his day that brought their influence to bear on the State to kill Jesus? Another believer used his influence on the State to obtain Jesus' body and give it a proper burial as required by scripture. In other words, politics is just a tool that can be used for good or for evil. It all depends on who weilds that political influence.

My response:
The state did not support Daniel & Esther. Indeed, wielders of state power were all out against them. But they both stayed true to the faith, God glorified Himself in response and the heathen bowed down!

Jesus is a type of true witness. The Pharisees are a type of compromised religion, whilst Herod and Pontius Pilate typify the state.  Haven’t I said this already? Haven’t I enumerated the scriptural instances/references to this scenario severally  .

The true witness of the Lord, was contrary to the establishment (of religion & state). A threat to religion as it undermined the privileges which they had from Rome as long as the populace was under control (John ch11 v8). A threat to the state because it signified another kingdom and another king. You say Herod knew nothing about Jesus? Did I or did I not refer earlier to the infanticide by the Herod lineage at the thought of another King? Keep clutching dude!

God bless

ok Im back. what did i miss!

_{**trini girl shoves popcorn in her mouth and grins at computer screen**}

ayayay! lol!

you tell em TV!!

Okay guys calm down now.

Although by no means will I try to contend with you gentlemen (being a woman and all) _{**directed at TV**},   ,here's my simple take after following this thread.

There seems to be an erroneous intermingling of the definitions of government, politics, democracy and sovereignty as they relate to the kingdom of God.

A loose definition of politics says it is the total complex of relations between people living in society. (you know I like my words and meanings). So there can be party politics (ex in gov't), people politics (ex in communities) as so on.  The driving force is to encourage so called equity, fairness, cohesiveness and a better standard of living for all.

A government is defined as  the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises authority and performs functions, and may not neccesarily be a government ordained by Jehovah God.  It could be an Islamic government, a Hindu government.   In scripture, where it was declared that the government shall be upon His shoulders, referred to heavenly government, not earthly. A govenment can also be capitalist, communist, democratic, monarchical etc.

Democracy is defined as a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

Sovereignty is defined as  supreme power especially over a body politic, freedom from external control, AUTONOMY, controlling influence.

If we take the above into consideration then it is safe to assume that:-

1.  God is NOT a politician.  However, He is Sovereign, and acting as Sovereign rules autonomously non-democratic government of heaven.

2.  There ARE "political" representatives and a political establishment in God's government.  However,  again, they do not practice democracy.  They carry out the Sovereign will of God.

3.  Democracy is not something inspired by God.  As I said earlier, it was probably introduced at the entrance of Adamic sin.

The ultimate design was for all to be subject to God's non-democratic government. Can we vote for who we want to be in God's govenment? Can heavenly governemt decide who rules Sovereign?  Do we as christians determine what is best for us democratically?

4.  Earthly governments are NOT established by God, but by the free will of men.  However He can use anyone for his purpose according to prophecy and His will.  All are subject to Him.

5.  Earthly politics deal with the affairs of men, not of God.

6.  Earthly politicians are influenced by the will of the PEOPLE so that they may or may not act on their behalf in carry out laws in their defense protection improve quality of life etc and also to enjoy the POWER.

7.  Heavenly politics deal with the affairs of God, who is not like men or thinks like one.

8.  Earthly politics is about negotiation AND compromise.  Since the latter is the result of the former. 

9.  Heavenly politics is about grace and mercy that triumphs over judgement (thank God) 

I seem to recall this "democracy" when it was tested in the presence of Pontius Pilate (correct me if I'm wrong).  When he was given a choice to free our King, even though he found no fault in him what did he eventually do? He gave in to the will of the people, slayed he who was without sin, and freed the murderer Barabbas, all in the name of DEMOCRACY.

We didn’t do a good job at it then, and it would be fearful to think who we would “vote” for now.  Thank God that heaven is not a democracy I say!

Don't confuse the establishment of kings, judges and lawgivers that God ordained for His people, the Jews, with modern day government and the stench of earthly politics.

In modern day British and American government born out of common law, there is a separation between chruch and state.
It is important for a governement to have the appearance of fairness to and acceptance of all.  Perhaps the early leaders like Ben Franklin encouraged a christian government.  However, Satan's agenda must come to pass where government must maintain the silhouette of godly values. 

Is it not evident what true earthly government encourages? Gay rights? Legalising abortions? Christian bishops? Please.  Not going off topic here.  But it is obvious that God has nothing to do with earthly goverenment at this time.

I fear for a christian who is brave enough to enter into the political arena.

@TV 01

U are so right.

True Christianity and Politics do not mix. Jesus and the First century christians advoided politics like a plague even though they had the capability of beign good rulers. The whole political system is Satans so it is not even a case of just moral compromise. True Christians will always be persecuted for folowing Jesus example of beign no part of the world. The present nationalistic behaviours and divisions of this world is from the devil. Anybody aligning with the world in world in a political way esp so called christianity muddling in the murky waters of todays world will face the undilutted wrath of God

I laugh when i see so called christians mocking the muslims on this site when they themselves will face the very same judgement.

So called Christianity along with other false religions misleading the whole world are in for adverse judgement. The identity of the harlot of revelation is very clear.


At Bobbyaf i was impressed that you identified who the harlot refered to but dont you also think Babylon the Great includes SDA too? With false teachings like Jesus=God, Trinity n the rest?

Guys i dont like posting on the religion forum coz so many misguided fantics esp those who think they r following jesus .

Il rather be in the sports thread talking about AC Milan

My Prayer:

Father Bless me for I have not the patience of TayoD, Analytical, Shahan et al.
Father Bless them, TayoD, Analytical, Gwaine, Shahan, et al for the patience they seem to exhibit here.
Father Bless TV01, for his quest to understand you in another dimension the more!

sage:

Il rather be in the sports thread talking about AC Milan

AC Milan? What church/denomination is that?
Do they subscribe to "Moggery" (not unlike gay-homosexual buggery! ~ Please see Havila, TayoD, et al about that  )

mrpataki:

My Prayer:

Father Bless me for I have not the patience of TayoD, Analytical, Shahan et al.
Father Bless them, TayoD, Analytical, Gwaine, Shahan, et al for the patience they seem to exhibit here.
Father Bless TV01, for his quest to understand you in another dimension the more!

Amen to that.
Now go to your room and stay there !.
And whatever you do, stop clogging up the thread. You don't have to post you know  ?
Oops. Sorry, I forget you initiated this thread! I do apologise. Actually, I was right the first time.
The thread don pass you! Just siddon dey look  !

And next time remember to pray for understanding to go with your patience  .

God bless

@ TV01,
Replying you as my flesh actually urges me to do, will reveal the babyish side of me. I know better.
That I dont respond to your apparition, does not mean ignorance of the subject matter! I will rather give you a response as this: Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest no one here "nairaland" knows the difference!

Stay blessed!

lol!! I love nairaland.  These ingenious insinuated intelluctual insults and mud slinging don pass over my head o.  Ah not able.

Shahan whey u dey girl! Come see how these "men of God" purport insult implicitly and hide behind "God bless" then storm off with their nose in the air! lol

Abeg doh kill me on nairaland today. 

trini_girl:

lol!! I love nairaland. These ingenious insinuated intelluctual insults and mud Come see how these "men of God" purport insult implicitly and hide behind "God bless" then storm off with their nose in the air! lol

Abeg doh kill me on nairaland today.

You can say that again Trini( vincy girl here) And to think that He had the nerves to throw rubbish my way on another post,

@ trini_girl,
Sorry if you feel sad about my post here, but I could not but express it a bit. After noting his intent at all purpose to malign my inputs here.

@ needle,
I would rather prefer you go back to your vomit and not derail this topic.

Again, go back to your rock and stay there,

@ pataki

please, let's not digress.  I assure you I am quite entertained. not sad at all.  and when i spoke of the intellectual mudslinging rest assured you were excluded. u are not yet at that level.    My brother TV has effortlessly taken the crown and ran with it, no contest. even though it was not his intention. u sir, try too hard.

@ neelsel

doh mind pataki, he usually reverts to his true nature when you sift his theology as wheat.  
but in general he's a nice guy.

glad to see another caribbean lady on nairaland.

@ Topic,

Well I feel you should direct that question to our Rev., Pastor, Founder, Politician Chris Okotie. The Presiding Bishop of Lemon Grass Int.

I learnt he heard from God thrice on his pastorial call, ee nn, I mean Presidential Spiritual Assignment.

Meanwhile, Lets try vote him in this time, if not for anything, but for the fact that he made it clear to the world that God told him this 3rd time that he will be the Mr. President; Atleast to keep the name of our God on HIGH!

Segoye2, please don't derail this discussion.

Trini-girl, you will agree with me that the discussion in this thread has since shifted focus from God being a politician (we know He is not) to that of Christians participation in government and politics, which is the bone of contention between us and TV01.

It seems the absolute use (and the consequent abuse) of power by those in government is what informs his opinion on this.  But we must understand very well what the focus of a believer in place government should be.  A believer in authority is not to lord it over people, but to serve them.  This is the spirit of Christianity- service.  Whether secular or ministry.

I believe in the separation of state and church as separate institutions.  But that is as far as it goes.  The church is not to be state-run and vice-versa.  That is not to say that individuals that make up both are mutually exclusive.  A believer is a citizen of a state, bound and affected by its policies- both good or bad.  What a witness it is for our God to have believers of integrity and high moral standards, that will serve people in fairness and fear of God, with a clear focus on who they are and why they are in power!

Should we continue to groan under oppressive tyrants and all we do is to stay at the receiving ends of their tyrannies and pray for deliverance from their hands and refuse to rather take the opportunities available to serve people with godly ideals?  All because we choose to see a ‘worldly’ agenda in government?  Then we should altogether leave this world and refuse to be involved in all its ‘worldly’ endeavours in music, sports, business etc.

May I crave the indulgence of all here to please go read again the accounts of Esther, Daniel and Nehemiah.  These were believers in their dispensations.  You can’t just miss their involvements in the politics of their days.  Those were empires governed by monarchy- the prevailing system of government of their days.

Would you know that Esther participated in a process that eventually brought her into the palace as queen.   What do you call the process through which an evil decree was overturned, if not lobbying, with God in her favour?  The same could be said of Daniel.  I disagree that these were just servitude as TV01 called it.

What do you make of Nehemiah?  Please go grab a Bible and do some reading (not even studying).  This was a man who served King Artaxerxes of Medo-Persian Empire as cup-bearer (servitude here), but was busy making plans and mapping out the strategy of reaching his goal of rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and leading a return to Judah of the captives.

By the time he made his request known to the king (after 4months), he was ready with every answer the king required of him, the duration, the means, and the goal!  Would you care to know that he was made a governor of Judah and actually served for more than 12 years, with purpose and integrity.  This was a believer in governance.  By the way, the empire had 127 provinces, and Judah had governors before Nehemiah came.

Hear what this man wrote himself in Nehemiah 5:

14 Moreover, from the day that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year to the thirty-second year of King Artaxerxes, for twelve years, neither I nor my kinsmen have eaten the governor’s food allowance.

15 But the former governors who were before me laid burdens on the people and took from them bread and wine besides forty shekels of silver; even their servants domineered the people. But I did not do so because of the fear of God.

16 I also applied myself to the work on this wall; we did not buy any land, and all my servants were gathered there for the work.

17 Moreover, there were at my table one hundred and fifty Jews and officials, besides those who came to us from the nations that were around us.

18 Now that which was prepared for each day was one ox and six choice sheep, also birds were prepared for me; and once in ten days all sorts of wine were furnished in abundance. Yet for all this I did not demand the governor’s food allowance, because the servitude was heavy on this people.

19 Remember me, O my God, for good, according to all that I have done for this people.

He conducted census, removed taxes, organised guards, restore public order, refused to abuse power, improved living conditions etc.  He had his own fare share of distractions and evil plots from enemies who had been oppressing the people.

What more do I say?  May God give us the Nehemiahs of our days!

[I appreciate you all and no hate in my heart, nor any intention of intellectual wetin wetin, according to trini_girl]

SInce the thread has derailed from its original focus, as you said yourself, it will now be locked.

Seun, please don't lock it. I suggest you modify the title to :Is God A Politician/Should Christians participate in Politics?

Topic Already Exists: Christians And Politics

Hi Seun,

Analytical's right, please don't close it. The thread has not derailed, just progressed. We have picked up a head of steam and it would be a shame to terminate the discussion now (especially as I am in the midst of dealing severely with those who would "bleach me white" or "politicise" me ). There isn't even a need to re-title it.

Thanks

The voice of one cryin'

I pleaded with him off-Nairaland and he has graciously decided to unlock it (he actually locked it!) for now, but still wants to split the topic. Like TV01 said we have just progressed on the topic. Please leave it as it is.

All hail King Seun of Nairaland!

Thanks Seun and Analytical as well.
I knew when he locked it but I could not get to reply him then.

The topic actually is going somewhere as I intend to bring in another dimension after every one must have given their own view point concisely.

I dunno about you guys, I was having a good time, but when Seun locked/unlocked the thread it kinda just killed the buzz. I found it disappointing. After all, even if the topic was covered already it was by different people, and the flow of the debate was on an entirely different level, as is obvious in the Christianity and Politics thread. Kind of turned me off. I don't get it. Good way to kill a thread.

mrpataki:

I intend to bring in another dimension

Oya, we are waiting. Or are you spiritually constipated _{pigs will fly} ?

trini_girl:

I don't know about you guys, I was having a good time, but when Seun locked/unlocked the thread it kind of just killed the buzz. I found it disappointing. After all, even if the topic was covered already it was by different people, and the flow of the debate was on an entirely different level, as is obvious in the Christianity and Politics thread. Kind of turned me off. I don't get it. Good way to kill a thread.

No probs girl, we can ressurect it. Laxatives for the brother? Or maybe someone can post something?

God bless

TV01, I was expecting your reply before the interruption. Have you taken time now to go through Nehemiah again as said in my post?

Okay, I'll post something.

I often stress the importance of extrapolating the practical outworking of any doctrinal position. After all, it’s a living faith. A doctrine that on the surface sounds plausible, but does not translate when reality bites, is nothing more than religious procedure.

I think we’ve had some great discussions/debates on this forum, but I am often left with a sense of disappointment as (whether by default, design or dedevil) we never seem to progress to the point of articulating how our various positions work in the real world, be it in our individual walks, or in Body dynamics.

So whilst we are on the practicality of uncompromised XT involvement in the political arena, I'll have a stab at it.

I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to the current polemic around “gay/lesbian adoption” in Britain.

I want to briefly outline my understanding of the roles and positions of some of the major parties in this imbroglio (best knowledge at the time of writing and correction if required is welcome) and use it as a fillip to re-start and progress the debate.

The Roman Catholic Church ~There are currently 8 Roman Catholic adoption agencies, who at this time (due to their religious beliefs) do not consider gay/lesbian couples for adoption.

New legislation is being passed, which will mean the RC agencies compromising on their beliefs and being legally forced to allow gay/lesbians to adopt through them (or possibly shutting down).

The Anglican (CofE) Church ~ Adoption agencies for this denomination currently allow gay/lesbian couples to adopt. I believe they have for some time now. I have pointed out severally, that the wholesale yoking of the CofE to the state has left it so compromised, that it is little more than a QUANGO. A church in name only, whose light is deep underground and barely flickering.

Weirdly enough, they are championing the RC right to act according to their beliefs.  A clear-cut example of their hand-wringing indecisiveness, inability to articulate a clear, uncompromised faith based or moral position, and desire to please everyone but the One they purport to serve. Sadly these days, the CofE seems more comfortable mirroring prevailing societal/cultural trends than witnessing Gods judgement and the love of Christ to them.

The Government ~  Since the advent of the Labour party to power, Britain has been gripped by a weird, virulent form of PC. This has seen their barely disguised humanist manifesto (truly ideology is the new theology), wreak havoc on the family, empower the gay lobby and dispense with any pretence of a moral compass this country might have.

The Labour party’s relentless drive for universal “equality” and “human rights” for all, whilst sounding plausible on the surface (much like the doctrine of many on this forum  !), is contrary to Gods divine order. The logical outworking of this has been to insist on legislating equal rights of adoption for gay/lesbian couples.

It seems likely now that by a quorum (that's democracy for you) within the cabinet this law will be passed wholesale, without a clause for the RC church to act according to their faith/religious/philosophical conscience. That is, they will be forced to compromise or close.

Very interesting, are the positions of two of the major players in this saga.

1. The Right Honourable Tony Blair PM ~ An Anglican (with a Catholic family?), if not a devout one or even a dilligently practicing one. The PM had made it known via various information sources (leaks!), that he was personally in favour of a religious clause, which would have made special allowance for the churches, exempting them on the basis of their religious beliefs.

2. The RH Ruth Kelly MP Cabinet Minister for Communities ~ Forced into the limelight when she became minister for education at 35. Extra focus due to the issue of “Faith Schools” and her own devout Catholicism and membership of Opus Dei, a Catholic fraternity(?), whose activities are well documented. Her position was more or less the same as the PM’s.

The wishes of both (theological) have been subsumed to that of the party (ideological). So what I see here is an example of the futility of Christian Politics. It can only lead to all round compromise and blighted witness.

Would anyone here consider TB to be a Daniel? Or RK an Esther? You'll play "spot the Nehemiah" in vain. Is anybody expecting resignations henceforth? So, while you may ascend to the highest echelons of political power, will you be right? rarely, honourable? unlikely. Politically  correct? maybe, but religiously? I think religion would have ceased to be your motivation a long time ago.

As ever I look forward to hearing different perspectives.

God bless

@All,

Can we please move this discussion to "Christians and Politics"? I think earlier indication that we have derailed this thread is appropriate. Don't wanna incur the wrath of the almighty administrator - Seun.

I'll see you guys there.

wonderful question by the way and Yes, God is a politician, a business man, a military personnel, a scientist,and the one most people know, a compassionate. You see Christians make this mistake of seeing Jehovah as a one-dimensional person when in fact there are five personages from the scriptures. The first book of the bible tells us that He is a creator, innovator, scientist and He read out his CV for us in JOB 38. The second personage of God is the compassionate God, he clothes, feeds, heals, forgives,protects and guides us, you see, christians know and like this side of him a lot. Then you have Him as a businessman or investor (matthew 25 vs 14-30) the talents in that parable is not singing, dancing and the like, its a monetary unit. Today it would have been called parable of the dollar, that is the God you deal with as a businessman or woman. A fourth is the military commander, the Lord of host, of whom it is written that he cometh from Edom with dyed garment from bozrah, soaked with the blood of the enemy as he declares the day of the Lord(isaiah 63) He is the Angel
in 2 Kings 19:35 and Isaiah 37:36, the one who
took out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one
night. Then finally we have God the Government
He’s the potentate and King who
administrates the universe and all of Heaven.
It is in his capacity as government we refer to
him as King of kings and Lord of lords, and it
is on the basis of his might and power that
every knee must bow. (Philippians 2:10) thank you