Viaro -

Now to squarely address you on your presuppositions –

I will start by saying that I will, as I indicated in my OP, take an existential and ontological approach to this.

Biblically, I believe Noetic has already done the damage, in showing that your belief is diametrically opposed to that which is taught in the Bible. I can only add to that the clear statement in the NT that flesh and blood do not enter the Kingdom of God.

But lets proceed ontologically.

I contend that your assertion that Physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in spiritual realms is absurd because –

1. A physical body is a three dimensional entity that has a spatial construct and thus can only dwell within space and time: spiritual realms such as “heaven” are said to exist beyond space and time and as such a body with a spatial construct cannot conceivably be compatible with such a realm.

2. Physical bodies are material and tangible and as such it is inconceivable that they could “enter” into a realm said to be intangible.

3. Physical bodies CANNOT survive outside the atmospheric conditions that make their continued existence possible: thus a physical body runs on blood, which is fuelled by oxygen which the physical body must breathe - and energized by material food. Since it is inconceivable that such things as oxygen and material food exist in intangibility (wow, are we even discussing this?)  - then I directly posit that a physical body cannot survive in an intangible spiritual realm.

4. A physical body cannot function in a spiritual realm: viz – every single function of a physical body is tied to, and works based on the physics of its physical environment: thus the eyes could not see save for physical light waves in the physical world, the physical ears could not hear, save for physical sound waves in the physical world: the skin could have no sense of touch in an intangible realm, and lets not even contemplate the requirement to eject waste (defecate) in intangibility! You see, this is downright comical.

There are more. But we shall start with these first.

I state that the clear incongruity of the idea that physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in spiritual realms is exactly what makes ALL men bound to death.

^^^

DeepSight, I hope u know that ur assertions can not withstand a rigorous analytical critique . . .be it intellectual or scientific.
I strongly assert that you CANNOT exclude "spiritualism" in making a case for or against viaro's assertions.

1. A physical body is a three dimensional entity that has a spatial construct and thus can only dwell within space and time: spiritual realms such as “heaven” are said to exist beyond space and time and as such a body with a spatial construct cannot conceivably be compatible with such a realm.

This cannot be proven.

since you are yet to visit heaven or have the manual of the composition of heaven. . .it is inconceivable to suggest that man cannot be compatible with heaven, . . . .you con only safely assert with biblical injunctions that the human body was not designed for heavenly places.

2. Physical bodies are material and tangible and as such it is inconceivable that they could “enter” into a realm said to be intangible.

Jesus ascended into heaven (an intangible realm) with His physical body (tangible). . . . . .thus nullifying ur assertion. I do not for a milli-second assume that human bodies cannot ascend into heaven, . but I believe that the laws of God prevalent there forbids such.
IMO . . . .to define a "limited scope of possibilities" in heaven is to attempt to take the place of God.

4. A physical body cannot function in a spiritual realm: viz –

The ascension of JC nullifies this assertion.

^^^ Please lets not resort to pleadings of magic.

Is your "heaven" within three dimensional space and time?

If it is, then it is not a spiritual place.

If it is not, then no three dimensional entity could be compatible with it.

Period.

Are you suggesting to me that Jesus is still chilling right now in the spiritual "heaven" with his material body?

Thus God is in heaven in a physical body.

Wow! I must just leave you to that eminently bizzarre imagination.

Think through this thing before posting, abeg.

Gnite.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Please lets not resort to pleadings of magic.

Is your "heaven" within three dimensional space and time?

If it is, then it is not a spiritual place.

If it is not, then no three dimensional entity could be compatible with it.

Period.

Are you suggesting to me that Jesus is still chilling right now in the spiritual "heaven" with his material body?

Thus God is in heaven in a physical body.

Wow! I must just leave you to that eminently bizzarre imagination.

Think through this thing before posting, abeg.

Gnite.

have u ever being to heaven before?

Deep Sight:

Are you suggesting to me that Jesus is still chilling right now in the spiritual "heaven" with his material body?

Yep.
1. Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

2. Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God

3. Luk 24:37-39 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

4. 1 Co 15:35-53 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

@noetic16,

Thanks for your interesting comments.

First, as to this clause in yours -

noetic16:

. . .is to call Jesus a LIAR.

If I were you, I would slow down with being pejoratively accusative against the Lord Jesus. For one, even as Christians, we might not know everything about the things of God; but should we go out of our way to therefore infer in upper case that Jesus would then be made out to be a LIAR? Please, noetic16 my guy, take it easy.

Now on to business:

noetic16:

There is no reason to believe that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven/realm of the spiritual. . . . .and there are several notions that support this truth . . . ,

There are more cogent reasons to believe what the Bible says about Enoch and Elijah being taken to heaven without experiencing death. The 'notions' you presented are just that - 'notions' - and they are unfortunately skewed. Let's see:

noetic16:

1. Jesus stated categorically in John 3:13 that no man has EVER ascended into heaven . .  .except for the son of man that descended from it. To allege that Elijah or Enoch ascended into heaven is to call Jesus a LIAR.

1.   I don't remember alleging that Elijah or Enoch "ascended" into heaven - "ascended" is not the word I used in quoting 2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah or in Heb. 11:5 for Enoch. It's obvious that John 3:13 is a statement of particular reference which cannot be stretched to deny the very fact of such cases as of Enoch and Elijah.

2.   That Elijah went up into heaven is shown in 2 Kings 2 twice - (a) in verse 1 ("when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind"; and (b) in verse 11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". Statement could not be clearer, noetic16 - unless you just want to excuse the fact by appealing to 'notions'.

3.  The meaning of Christ having "ascended" is categorically explained both in John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10. Quoting the latter, this is what the "ascended" means:

[list]⁹Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things[/list]

4.   It is clear therefore that when Christ spoke of "ascended" in John 3:13 He was clearly making that statement in context of what issued from His death and resurrection - which is not the case for any other man, and definitely not the case for either Enoch or Elijah.

5.   Yet, we cannot deny that Elijah "went up by a whilrwind into heaven" as is declared in both vs. 1 and 11 of 2 Kings 2, in the same KJV that you favour/prefer. You either understand the context between those verses in 2 Kings 2 and John 3:13, or deny them all you want. But for all intents and purposes, the case is clearly made for the fact that Elijah 'went up' into HEAVEN - which is what this thread is about.

6.   As you can see,  "ascended" was cited in reference to Christ, and not as you alleged was used for either Elijah or Enoch. Some might argue that ascended is the same thing as 'went up' - but that would be a fallacy in view of the fact that the former in context was defined in the NT (John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10), and neither case is confused the one for the other.

@noetic16,

noetic16:

2. The case of Elijah is interesting because while we readily ASSUME that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into heaven, the prophets who knew of the event did not assume so. In 2 kings 2:17,  50 men set out to search for Elijah based on the assumption and belief that he was probably dropped off in an unknown island.

Excuse me?
I'm not one of those to "assume" anything here in 2 Kings 2:11. That verse clearly declares that Elijah went up into HEAVEN. The 50 men who went in search of Elijah were acting on their own "assumption" - that is why they went and searched for Elijah for three days but DID NOT find him anywhere on earth! They ought to have listened to Elisha who warned them not to go in verse 16 - so please, noetic16, you're acting on your own 'assumption' in the notion that 'we readily ASSUME'. No, I don't 'readily assume' anything here with you, sorry.

noetic16:

3. Elijah would later write a letter to the reigning king, long after his whirlwind experience when he was supposed to be in heaven 2 chronicles 21:12-15. This suggests that Elijah was close by, else how did he get to send the letter? or are letters written from the spiritual realm?

1.   A careful reading of 2 Chron. 21:12-15 reveals that passage says nothing about its chronological occurence to be 'long after' Elijah's whirlwind experience. It simply said that 'there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet'. Scholars do not necessarily interpret most of the events recorded in the history of Israel as one single chain of chronology from 1 Samuel through 1 Kings to 2 Chronicles (commonly called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel'); and some of the gist of events recorded in those books (as they are arranged in our Bible) are said to be written in 'periphrasis'*.

2.   Hence, the incumbent king (Jehoram) in 2 Chron. 21 should be understood in light of events in Elijah's time and ministry before the whirlwind experience of 2 Kings 2. For instance, in 1 Kings 22:50 we find just about the same thing as is recorded in 2 Chron. 21:1 -

[list]^{1 Kings 22:50}'And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

[list]^{2 Chron. 21:1}'Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

3.   From the above alone, there's no need to assume again that the 'writing' from Elijah to Jehoram occured "long after" the whirlwind experience of the former. The prophet was already introduced in 1 Kings 17 (Elijah the Tishbite - v. 1); in 1 Kings 22:50 we are introduced to Jehoram's reign; and past that passage, we find Elijah's ministry reaching on into 2 Kings 2.

4.   The careful chronology of events around Elijah's ministry and departure do not lead to the notion that the 'writing' in 2 Chron. 21:12-15 occured 'long after' the whirlwind of 2 Kings 2:11. As regards the question of periphrasis* in both passages, we find the following interesting things -

[list](a)  that 2 Chronicles makes no mention of the whirlwind experience even though the same intro of Jehoram's reign (2 Chron. 21:1) was recorded in 1 Kings 22:50;[/list]

[list](b)  that 1 & II Kings make no mention of the 'writing' of Elijah to Jehoram, even though events around Jehoram's reign were already recorded in the 1 & 2 Kings.[/list]

5.   In this, it is obvious that Elijah's 'writing' to Jehoram should have occured before the whirlwind took the former to heaven. You may disagree (perhaps with good reasons) that the chronology may not follow in this manner; but either way, the chronologies and periphrasis do not negate the fact of the statement that Elijah went into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11).


*periphrasis - a style that involves indirect ways of expressing things.

@noetic16,

noetic16:

4. Enoch was taken. . . .but to where?. . . .No one knows. . . . . .but we also know he never went to heaven. . .cos Jesus said so.

1.   Enoch was translated - and just to clear all notions to the contrary of what it means, Hebrews 11:5 is clearly self-explanatory: "Enoch was translated that he should not see death". The point established here are two fold: (a) that Enoch did not suffer death; (b) that he was 'translated'.

2.   In the same verse (Heb. 11:5), a third point is made: 'Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and [color=000099]was not found, because God had translated him[/color]'. If Enoch was on earth, he most probably would have been found by his contemporaries - but the fact is stated: he was not found, just as had happened when Elijah went into heaven {2 Kings 2:17 - "they sought three days, but found him not"}.

3.   Jesus never said anywhere that Enocn 'never went into heaven'. Your argument on John 3:13 has been shown as mere speculation that confuses the ascension of Christ for the events around Elijah - and dragging on that misconstrued idea makes your argument against Heb. 11:5 a double fallacy.

4.   Besides denying what those verses say, I don't see you explaining what they might have been pointing to. For instance, I have tried to explain (instead of dismissing or denying) issues around all the texts before us [2 Kings 2:11; 2 Chron. 21:12-15; John 3:13 and Hebrews 11:5] - but in your comments, you deny what is said about Elijah and Enoch and offered nothing in explanation. Why is that? What would Heb. 11:5 be pointing to?

5.    The question in citing Enoch was about DeepSight's concern that for someone to be found in the spiritual realms, such a person must first have died. I cited Elijah and Enoch specifically in response that these two personages did not suffer or experience death - and that is what this thread was about.

@noetic16,

noetic16:

5. The bible talks of the death in Christ awaiting resurrection. . . . .it also talks of the patriarchs awaiting ressurecction. u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave.

1.   The Bible nowhere declares that Elijah's body is in the grave anywhere. Same for Enoch: there is not a single verse anywhere saying that his body is in the grave. If you find them, please post the verses, thanks.

2.   Where the Bible wants us to know that the bodies of the saints are in the grave, it explicitly says so - example: David - 'that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day' (Acts 2:29) and 'David is not ascended into the heavens' (Acts 2:34). The case of David most of the other saints do not negate what was declared in Scripture about Elijah and Enoch - for while David died and was buried, Elijah went up into heaven, and Enoch did not see death.

3.   The resurrection which is preached in the NT for the saints is not simply a matter of being alive from the dead, but one that extends to the changing of our bodies (1 Cor. 15:42-45). The event of our bodies being 'changed' happens at the epoch of "the resurrection" in God's economy (1 Cor. 15:51-52) - yea, that is which termed "a better resurrection" (Heb. 11:35), and this collectively with all the saints (Heb. 11:40 - 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect').

4.   In all this, there is no reason to therefore assume the platitude of a linear ideology so as to either deny, or twist, or convolute what is said about Elijah and Enoch - these did not experience death; and their bodies are NOT in the graves.

6. Perhaps if u expand the scope of the spiritual realm to include "unknown places" like the garden of eden. . . , then I might agree with your submission. Because we do know that the garden is in this earth and Adam lived there where he was not subject to disease, ageing, death or other irregularities in our world today.

1.    I'm not trying to expand anything so as to arrive at ideas that are unwarranted in Scripture. To this end, I do not equate 'the garden of Eden' to mean the same as 'HEAVEN' where Elijah went by a whirlwind.

2.   Scripture is clear: Elijah went up into HEAVEN - and by that we know that it is not the realms of the earth, in contrast to your inference about the Garden of Eden being 'in this earth'.

3.   My submission remain as was - and if you do have anything of substance to show where Elijah or Enoch experienced death, please share. Failing that, I do not find how your denying the clear declarations of Scripture on both accounts amounts to anything, especially where you did not make any attempts to explain the verses around Elijah and Enoch.

Submissively, if your definition of the spiritual/immaterial includes other unknown places of existence like the garden of eden then I do agree that our physical bodies can dwell in such "heavens" . . . .but if u refer to the heavens where angelice beings and Jehovah reside. . . .then I am bound to disagree with your submission.

I understand your reasons to disagree are founded on your 'notions' - none of which appear in the body of my submissions. I do not try to make overrated 'definitions' of "heaven" to mean somewhere on the earth as you assumed for the garden of Eden. My comments are based in context of each passage as we find in Scripture, and not on assumptions negating the clear declarations of God without substance to explain what indeed they might have meant.

For all intents and purposes, what this thread was about is nothing more than DeepSight's concerns of what Scripture has said about Elijah and Enoch - that is what informed his opening this thread, and that is what I have focused on, and will be focusing on.

Cheers.

@DeepSight,

Deep Sight:
Viaro -

Now to squarely address you on your presuppositions –

I will start by saying that I will, as I indicated in my OP, take an existential and ontological approach to this.

Biblically, I believe Noetic has already done the damage, in showing that your belief is diametrically opposed to that which is taught in the Bible.

You may wish it so; but if I were you, I would be humble enough to have waited for viaro's response to noetic16's presumptions before making any comments - especially when you have no clue about what the Bible teaches. Scroll up and see that noetic16's comments are not a damage to me; and I trust that we can see issues for their simplicity and nothing other than that.

Deep Sight:

I can only add to that the clear statement in the NT that flesh and blood do not enter the Kingdom of God.

That statement you have supposed would be from 1 Corinthians 15:50 - "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The Kingdom of God is not to be confused for the simple subject about the possibility of physical bodies entering into heaven. As regards the latter, I have shown what Scripture declares - that Elijah went into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11); but at "the resurrection", that is when we find that 'the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom' (Daniel 7:22 cf. 12:2-3).

The verse 1 Cor. 15:50 does not negate the basic point for which you raised this thread and invited me - the question of whether physical bodies enter into heaven. That basic of all enquiries has been answered, and I had anticipated that you guys who argue to the contrary would not be able to oblige my request to find me a single verse that declares that Elijah or Enoch had suffered death. Do you care to do so now?

Deep Sight:
But lets proceed ontologically.

I contend that your assertion that Physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in spiritual realms is absurd because –

It is not absurd. I hope you would not be too hasty to draw this kind of responses from me; just because you find nothing in your own worldview to contain the ontology you want to discuss does not mean therefore that anyone who does not narrow their view to your deism is by default holding an 'absurd' conviction.

Deep Sight:

1.   A physical body is a three dimensional entity that has a spatial construct and thus can only dwell within space and time: spiritual realms such as “heaven” are said to exist beyond space and time and as such a body with a spatial construct cannot conceivably be compatible with such a realm.

On what ontological science (if any) did you draw that fallacy of yours from? This was why I wondered whether you clearly understood the meaning of 'existential' and/or 'ontological' point(s) of view. Neither points of reference draws a conclusion about the nature of reality; and I cannot just let you dribble away so vacantly with that statement in your quote.

The spiritual realms are NOT beyond space and time - in your own worldview, maybe . . . but not in the Christian worldview. As far as 'time' (whatever and however one may define it), it affects such spiritual realms as 'heaven'. The question is not so much that it does, but rather which 'realm' of heaven would we be referring to?

But if we are to take you on your idealism of ontological musings here, I would like to ask: what is the nature of the reality/realities that exist beyond space and time? And what would you ever mean by 'space' and 'time' in regards of spatial constructs? And in what dimensional continuum are you making your assertion that is nothing more than a conjuring of your own limited thinking?

For now, I am led to believe that 'heaven' is a realm that exists in definitive space and time: it all depends on the nature of reality within which such a realm exists and is experienced.

Deep Sight:

2.   Physical bodies are material and tangible and as such it is inconceivable that they could “enter” into a realm said to be intangible.

Elijah is said to have entered HEAVEN - that point cannot be reduced to your own fallacy in order to make it a negation. There is not a single verse showing that Elijah shed his physical body here on earth before entering the 'heaven' of which 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 speak; and I have asked you repeatedly to show me any verse to the contrary. Care to do so now?

@DeepSight,

Deep Sight:

3.   Physical bodies CANNOT survive outside the atmospheric conditions that make their continued existence possible: thus a physical body runs on blood, which is fuelled by oxygen which the physical body must breathe - and energized by material food. Since it is inconceivable that such things as oxygen and material food exist in intangibility (wow, are we even discussing this?)  - then I directly posit that a physical body cannot survive in an intangible spiritual realm.

Here is your problem: you don't understand yourself, nor do you understand your terms, nor yet do you even grasp your own ontology. What do we make of 'atmospheric conditions' within the idea of spiritual realms? What are the 'spiritual realms' of which you speak? And is the idea of 'intangible' not a useless mechanical tautology here?

If you were talking to a fellow deist, I would see sense in your denial of the spiritual and the supernatural - because I know that deism has no grid to base any talk of the supernatural on. But I have to remind you that I'm not a deist; and my convictions are based on the premises of the Biblical worldview from whence also I draw from in my answer as to spiritual things - including supernatural realities.

To this end, one might ask: is a spiritual body in itself able to express tangibility? In deism, you may deny it could; but in my Biblical worldview, I affirm that it possibly could. Now if you ask for lucid examples, I have aplenty; but, of course, you have no plank to rest your denials upon - which is understandably why you have to deny anything that does not favour your narrow 'ontology'.

So, let me repeat the example that noetic16 has already cited, in consonance with my convictions that the 'spiritual body' expresses tangibility.

*Jesus rose with a glorified Body - the disciples handled Him ('tangibility' - John 20:26-27); and in that same glorified Body expressing His tangibility, He ascended into Heaven (Acts 1:9-10).

It is because you are confused about the 'spiritual realms' and what is meant by 'intangible', that is why you just do not make any sense to yourself between what you argue.

Deep Sight:
4.   A physical body cannot function in a spiritual realm: viz – every single function of a physical body is tied to, and works based on the physics of its physical environment: thus the eyes could not see save for physical light waves in the physical world, the physical ears could not hear, save for physical sound waves in the physical world: the skin could have no sense of touch in an intangible realm, and lets not even contemplate the requirement to eject waste (defecate) in intangibility! You see, this is downright comical.

Please don't confuse between the physical, the spiritual and the 'functions' of any reality. The spiritual can function tangibly in both planes of the physical and the supernatural world and yet retain the factor of the 'spiritual'. I already gave the answer of Jesus' glorified Body - go figure.

Deep Sight:
There are more. But we shall start with these first.

I state that the clear incongruity of the idea that physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in spiritual realms is exactly what makes ALL men bound to death.

It is only an 'incongruity' when one listens to your own ontology - which is hardly an ontology at all. It were better to stick with the physicalism of your deism than try to make ALL men subject to what your diesm cannot deliver.

For me, I find that within and beyond the spectra of ontologies (any ontologies), there are realities that function in manners that make man's best intelligences an absolutely small talk. Yet, in all the foregoing, I don't see how you have tried to make a good appreciation for ontologies about existences and realities which are beyond your worldview. Denying them doesn't help, sorry.

viaro:

@noetic16,

Thanks for your interesting comments.

You are welcome. but let me state that ur response is too long. . . please try and limit it to just the relevant parts to the discourse.

First, as to this clause in yours -If I were you, I would slow down with being pejoratively accusative against the Lord Jesus. For one, even as Christians, we might not know everything about the things of God; but should we go out of our way to therefore infer in upper case that Jesus would then be made out to be a LIAR? Please, noetic16 my guy, take it easy.

This is rather dodgy . . . .If I were u, I would look at that verse one more time before making a comment.
Jesus made a categorical statement that needs NO interpretation, and here u are attempting to twist it to fit into a preconceived meaning.

Now on to business:

There are more cogent reasons to believe what the Bible says about Enoch and Elijah being taken to heaven without experiencing death. The 'notions' you presented are just that - 'notions' - and they are unfortunately skewed. Let's see:

1.   I don't remember alleging that Elijah or Enoch "ascended" into heaven - "ascended" is not the word I used in quoting 2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah or in Heb. 11:5 for Enoch. It's obvious that John 3:13 is a statement of particular reference which cannot be stretched to deny the very fact of such cases as of Enoch and Elijah.

2.   That Elijah went up into heaven is shown in 2 Kings 2 twice - (a) in verse 1 ("when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind"; and (b) in verse 11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". Statement could not be clearer, noetic16 - unless you just want to excuse the fact by appealing to 'notions'.

Dont mix up the facts.

1. Elijah did NOT experience death . . .This is a FACT we all know.

2. Elijah was translated by a whirlwind . . . . .this we also know.

3. Jesus stated CLEARLY that no man has ever been to/ ascended into heaven except for Himself who descended from it.

4. Elijah would later write a letter long after his "ascension" to the reigning king, . . . . .this shows that Elijah was very much around on earth.

5. No one knows where EXACTLY the garden of eden is . . . .Elijah could simply have been translated to an unknown place like the garden of eden. . . . .because Jesus did state that no man has been to heaven.

6. When Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. . . .they were NOT subject to death.

. . , Submissively, The fact that Elijah did not see death does NOT translate to mean that he went to heaven. . .to insinuate such would be to call Jesus a liar.

3.  The meaning of Christ having "ascended" is categorically explained both in John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10. Quoting the latter, this is what the "ascended" means:

[list]⁹Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things[/list]

4.   It is clear therefore that when Christ spoke of "ascended" in John 3:13 He was clearly making that statement in context of what issued from His death and resurrection - which is not the case for any other man, and definitely not the case for either Enoch or Elijah.

This is yet another attempt to twist the words of Jesus. John 3:13 and Eph 4:9-10 are talking of two completely DIFFERENT things.

1. in John 3:12-13 . . , Jesus made 2 categorical statements saying . . ,
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus affirmed that Nicodemus would not believe earthly things not less heavenly things . . . .then He explicitly stated that quite unlike primordial beliefs . . . .No man had EVER been to heaven. This requires no further analysis or explanation.

2. Eph4:9-10 talks of Jesus having ascended (after His resurrection), had actually descended first into the lower parts of the earth . . . .many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus descended into hell to receive the key of life and death, . , and the same Christ who descended to these lower parts has also ascended ascended into heaven.

3. Eph 4:9-10 and John 3:13 . . . . .have NOTHING in common in explicit terms.

5.   Yet, we cannot deny that Elijah "went up by a whilrwind into heaven" as is declared in both vs. 1 and 11 of 2 Kings 2, in the same KJV that you favour/prefer. You either understand the context between those verses in 2 Kings 2 and John 3:13, or deny them all you want. But for all intents and purposes, the case is clearly made for the fact that Elijah 'went up' into HEAVEN - which is what this thread is about.

1. how did Elijaj send his letter? are letters sent from heaven?

2. is Jesus a LIAR? Jesus claimed that no man has been to heaven?

3. Is heaven the only place Elijah could have evaded death? could he not have evaded death in the garden of eden like Adam and Eve did?

6.   As you can see,  "ascended" was cited in reference to Christ, and not as you alleged was used for either Elijah or Enoch. Some might argue that ascended is the same thing as 'went up' - but that would be a fallacy in view of the fact that the former in context was defined in the NT (John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10), and neither case is confused the one for the other.

Bro, this linguistic terms IMO does not add credence to ur argument.

Your argument remains that Elijah and Enoch are in the spiritual/heaven. The bible clearly asserts that that is not the case.

viaro:

@noetic16,

Excuse me?
I'm not one of those to "assume" anything here in 2 Kings 2:11. That verse clearly declares that Elijah went up into HEAVEN. The 50 men who went in search of Elijah were acting on their own "assumption" - that is why they went and searched for Elijah for three days but DID NOT find him anywhere on earth! They ought to have listened to Elisha who warned them not to go in verse 16 - so please, noetic16, you're acting on your own 'assumption' in the notion that 'we readily ASSUME'. No, I don't 'readily assume' anything here with you, sorry.

Since Elijah was not found . . ,  and Jesus said no man has ever ascended/been to heaven. .  ,  where then was Elijah?

1.   A careful reading of 2 Chron. 21:12-15 reveals that passage says nothing about its chronological occurence to be 'long after' Elijah's whirlwind experience. It simply said that 'there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet'. Scholars do not necessarily interpret most of the events recorded in the history of Israel as one single chain of chronology from 1 Samuel through 1 Kings to 2 Chronicles (commonly called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel'); and some of the gist of events recorded in those books (as they are arranged in our Bible) are said to be written in 'periphrasis'*.

2.   Hence, the incumbent king (Jehoram) in 2 Chron. 21 should be understood in light of events in Elijah's time and ministry before the whirlwind experience of 2 Kings 2. For instance, in 1 Kings 22:50 we find just about the same thing as is recorded in 2 Chron. 21:1 -

[list]^{1 Kings 22:50}'And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

[list]^{2 Chron. 21:1}'Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

3.   From the above alone, there's no need to assume again that the 'writing' from Elijah to Jehoram occured "long after" the whirlwind experience of the former. The prophet was already introduced in 1 Kings 17 (Elijah the Tishbite - v. 1); in 1 Kings 22:50 we are introduced to Jehoram's reign; and past that passage, we find Elijah's ministry reaching on into 2 Kings 2.

4.   The careful chronology of events around Elijah's ministry and departure do not lead to the notion that the 'writing' in 2 Chron. 21:12-15 occured 'long after' the whirlwind of 2 Kings 2:11. As regards the question of periphrasis* in both passages, we find the following interesting things -

1. Elijah wrote his letter to king Jehoram. Jehoram was the son of king Jehosaphat. ,  .  .Jehosaphat reigned during the prophethood of Elisha . . .Elisha reigned after Elijah's whirlwind experience. As at the reign of Jehoram, Elijah was fast out of the equation.

2. So contrary to your postulation. . . . .the letter was sent LONG AFTER the whirlwind experience. The question remains who delivered the letter? was it from heaven?

5.   In this, it is obvious that Elijah's 'writing' to Jehoram should have occured before the whirlwind took the former to heaven. You may disagree (perhaps with good reasons) that the chronology may not follow in this manner; but either way, the chronologies and periphrasis do not negate the fact of the statement that Elijah went into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11).

The chronologies establish the FACT that elijah did NOT ascend/went into heaven.

viaro:

@noetic16,

1.   The Bible nowhere declares that Elijah's body is in the grave anywhere. Same for Enoch: there is not a single verse anywhere saying that his body is in the grave. If you find them, please post the verses, thanks.

My quote was clear. The bible talks of the death in Christ awaiting resurrection. . . . .it also talks of the patriarchs awaiting resurrection. u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave.

Enoch and elijah are not among the dead in Christ. . . , neither are they among the 3 patriarchs of Israel. So there is no where I stated that their bodies are in the grave. The point is that the bodies of the saints in heaven remains in the grave. While they are in heaven in spiritual forms. . . . their bodies remain in the grave and awaits resurrection at the call of the Lord.

This clearly affirms my primordial submission that no physical human body/entity has been to the spiritual plane.

2.   Where the Bible wants us to know that the bodies of the saints are in the grave, it explicitly says so - example: David - 'that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day' (Acts 2:29) and 'David is not ascended into the heavens' (Acts 2:34). The case of David most of the other saints do not negate what was declared in Scripture about Elijah and Enoch - for while David died and was buried, Elijah went up into heaven, and Enoch did not see death.

I never used David or anyone to make a case for or against Enoch and Elijah. But it is clearly obvious that Enoch and Elijah are/were not in heaven.

1. Can u produce one verse that says Enoch was taken to heaven?

3.   The resurrection which is preached in the NT for the saints is not simply a matter of being alive from the dead, but one that extends to the changing of our bodies (1 Cor. 15:42-45). The event of our bodies being 'changed' happens at the epoch of "the resurrection" in God's economy (1 Cor. 15:51-52) - yea, that is which termed "a better resurrection" (Heb. 11:35), and this collectively with all the saints (Heb. 11:40 - 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect').

what would be resurrected? is it not the body? why resurrect the body if it is already in heaven?

4.   In all this, there is no reason to therefore assume the platitude of a linear ideology so as to either deny, or twist, or convolute what is said about Elijah and Enoch - these did not experience death; and their bodies are NOT in the graves.

I dont know where u got ur ideas from. . , but I never insinuated that Elijah or Enoch had their bodies in a grave.

1.    I'm not trying to expand anything so as to arrive at ideas that are unwarranted in Scripture. To this end, I do not equate 'the garden of Eden' to mean the same as 'HEAVEN' where Elijah went by a whirlwind.

2.   Scripture is clear: Elijah went up into HEAVEN - and by that we know that it is not the realms of the earth, in contrast to your inference about the Garden of Eden being 'in this earth'.

Let me shed more light on the grey areas you do not seem to perceive.

1. The bible talks about three kinds of heaven.
A. The first heaven is our immediate sky where birds fly and rain drops from . . . . .this heaven is described in genesis 7:11-12
B. The second heaven is the heaven refers to the outer space, the sun, moon, stars, planets and other "UNKNOWNS" . . . . this heaven is described in Genesis 26:4, psalm 8:3, deuteronomy 26:62, Isaiah 13:10, deuteronomy 1:10
C. The third heaven is the heaven where God lives with His angels. . . , .hebrews 8:1, deuteronomy 26:15 and 2corinthians 12:2

2. there are several places including the other planets where the bible describes as "heaven" . . . .this does NOT imply the dwelling place of God. . . .because Jesus was explicit in stating so (John 3:!3)

3. So when I talk about the unknowns . . . . .I imply that Elijah and Enoch could have been taken to anywhere outside of the scope of our knowledge. , . but definitely NOT the heaven where God dwells.

3.   My submission remain as was - and if you do have anything of substance to show where Elijah or Enoch experienced death, please share. Failing that, I do not find how your denying the clear declarations of Scripture on both accounts amounts to anything, especially where you did not make any attempts to explain the verses around Elijah and Enoch.

this is rather cheap. . . . .this thread does not discuss the death of either Elijah or Enoch. . . .none of them DIED.
Cheers.

noetic16:

You are welcome. but let me state that your response is too long. . . please try and limit it to just the relevant parts to the discourse.

Apologies for the length of my reply. It was necessary in so far as that your denial explained nothing, and rather than follow that same principle, I wanted to be clear by explaining all passages in view cited already.

This is rather dodgy . . . .If I were u, I would look at that verse one more time before making a comment.

There's nothing dodgy in my rejoinder, and I considered them in light of other verses attesting to the same subject.

Jesus made a categorical statement that needs NO interpretation, and here u are attempting to twist it to fit into a preconceived meaning.

His statement needed to be interpreted in light of the context that appears both in John 3:13 AND Eph. 4:9-10. To ignore the fact of context is to arrive at pretext - which was what I was avoiding and so had to consider them. If you quote a verse all by itself and never consider its interpretation, you're violating the principle of Biblical exegesis - see 2 Peter 1:20 - 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation'. That tells us that we cannot arrive at any conclusions by just taking a single text without its context and arrive at preconceived pretexts, as you did.

Dont mix up the facts.

I did not.

1. Elijah did NOT experience death . . .This is a FACT we all know.

Dude, that is ALL I wanted to explain to DeepSight and nothing else. I hope he can come back and shout 'gbam' on this FACT.

2. Elijah was translated by a whirlwind . . . . .this we also know.

Good. That does not need interpretation, I guess.

3. Jesus stated CLEARLY that no man has ever been to/ ascended into heaven except for Himself who descended from it.

The fact before you is what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declares - Elijah went into HEAVEN by a whirlwind. How come you acknowledge the fact of the whirlwind and then excuse its concluding part of the same verse saying he went up into HEAVEN because you simply cannot acknowledge what it says? Please explain what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 may mean, instead of jumping the pail and not addressing those verses.

4. Elijah would later write a letter long after his "ascension" to the reigning king, . . . . .this shows that Elijah was very much around on earth.

This is mere conjecture - the verses you cited did NOT teach that the letter was written after the whirlwind experience - and I have outlined WHY that could not be. Please stop dressing this page with long unfounded excuses and denials, so you don't come back complaining about my lengthy replies.

5. No one knows where EXACTLY the garden of eden is . . . .Elijah could simply have been translated to an unknown place like the garden of eden. . . . .because Jesus did state that no man has been to heaven.

What has the garden of Eden got to do with 2 Kings 2:1 & 11, noetic16?

Dude, please wake up - 2 kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - that has nothing to do with Eden. You are the one that said that Eden was on earth, remember? So what correlation is there between an Eden on EARTH and Elijah went up into HEAVEN?!? Please show me the link and let's read something to the point, please.

6. When Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. . . .they were NOT subject to death.

I did not cite Adam and Eve as having gone into HEAVEN. Please stay on course.

. . , Submissively, The fact that Elijah did not see death does NOT translate to mean that he went to heaven. . .to insinuate such would be to call Jesus a liar.

I'm not the one alleging the 'liar' against the Lord Jesus; and I did not deny the meaning of His words in John 3:13. Instead of denying anything, I acknowledged them and tried to offer explanations in CONTEXT of what He might have meant - which indeed Ephesians 4:9-10 provided. Nor did I try to jump gun by equating Eden on earth (as you inferred) to be something akin to HEAVEN as is written in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11.

If you have something to say beyond your denials, please do so. The explanations I gave are still there; I tried to stay on course - which is why you don't read me equating Eden on your earth to HEAVEN. Do you care to give something of substance as to what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 might mean beyond your denying them with excuses of Adam and Eve that have nothing to do with the case in point?

This is yet another attempt to twist the words of Jesus. John 3:13 and Eph 4:9-10 are talking of two completely DIFFERENT things.

I twisted nothing - please explain them if you disagree.

1. in John 3:12-13 . . , Jesus made 2 categorical statements saying . . ,
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus affirmed that Nicodemus would not believe earthly things not less heavenly things . . . .then He explicitly stated that quite unlike primordial beliefs . . . .No man had EVER been to heaven. This requires no further analysis or explanation.

The statement Jesus made requires a contextual understanding in light of the warning of 2 Peter 1:20, or you might as well be saying that you enjoy violating the principles of Biblical exgesis. It is for that reason that I took time to show that Ephesians 4:9-10 explains what the "ascended" might mean, where it asks this question: "What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" Does that not show you that such a question is dealing with MEANINGS - and there, it is the MEANING of "he ascended"?

Even at that, please explain (or excuse) 2 kings 2:1 & 11 - it declares that indeed Elijah went up into HEAVEN. It does not say that Elijah's going up into HEAVEN is the same as what the ascending of Christ might have meant as explained in Ephesians 4:9-10. Do you care to leave your denials aside and then explain, exegete, elucidate on 2 Kings 2:1 & 11?!?

2. Eph4:9-10 talks of Jesus having ascended (after His resurrection), had actually descended first into the lower parts of the earth . . . .many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus descended into hell to receive the key of life and death, . , and the same Christ who descended to these lower parts has also ascended ascended into heaven.

Whatever 'many have interpreted this to me', please I want your own explanation as to how you want to deny 2 Kings 2:1 & 11. That is all I'm asking of you - explain what Elijah's case might have been BEYOND YOUR CONJECTURES. Thanks.

3. Eph 4:9-10 and John 3:13 . . . . .have NOTHING in common in explicit terms.

They do - that is why you fail to see them and just deny them without saying ANYTHING about their contextual meanings.

1. how did Elijaj send his letter? are letters sent from heaven?

I did not interpret it so; that is why I am now having the feeling that you merely scuttled round what I explained so you might come back with more excuses. I have drawn a bit of the chronology of events; and beyond your excuses and denials, you might want to take me up in another thread so I can set you straight on your categorical denials. Try me.

2. is Jesus a LIAR? Jesus claimed that no man has been to heaven?

No, Jesus is NOT a liar - and that was why I explained what He might have been pointing to in those passages we have read and repeatedly cited. If you reject context, then it is no wonder you're hell-bent on ascribing such perjorations to Jesus. I would rather that you keep your excuses and remain far more ignorant on matters you don't know about, than try to put up a front by alleging Jesus to be a liar.

3. Is heaven the only place Elijah could have evaded death? could he not have evaded death in the garden of eden like Adam and Eve did?

What has the Garden of Eden got to do with the fact that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN?!? You can keep your conjectures about Eden on earth; but please don't humour yourself on your excuses - it's beginning to make me wonder about you.

Bro, this linguistic terms IMO does not add credence to your argument.

Leave the linguistic terms if they are beyond you. Just show me what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are saying without throwing some conjectural soup on the table.

Your argument remains that Elijah and Enoch are in the spiritual/heaven. The bible clearly asserts that that is not the case.

The Bible simple says: "the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind" and "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". When you're done denying what the Bible says, please let me know. But thanks for trying, anyways.

@Viaro & Noetic

Luke 9:30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah

Err. . .just a question.
Where did Moses and Elijah appear from?

noetic16:

Since Elijah was not found . . ,  and Jesus said no man has ever ascended/been to heaven. .  ,  where then was Elijah?

2 Kings 2:11 - "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". Does that answer your quest; or you have a Bible that removes "into heaven" from that verse?

1. Elijah wrote his letter to king Jehoram. Jehoram was the son of king Jehosaphat. ,  .  .Jehosaphat reigned during the prophethood of Elisha . . .Elisha reigned after Elijah's whirlwind experience. As at the reign of Jehoram, Elijah was fast out of the equation.

Jehoram's reign was introduced to us (1 Kings 22:50) LONG BEFORE Elijah's departure (2 Kings 2:1 & 11). I also explained why the chronology does not follow a silver line. In any case, 2 Chron. 21:12-15 does not tell us anything about when that 'writing' occured - whether before or after Elijah's going into HEAVEN. Yet, whatever you arrive at, please find a way of denying the fact of 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 with substance beyond conjecture.

Next?

2. So contrary to your postulation. . . . .the letter was sent LONG AFTER the whirlwind experience. The question remains who delivered the letter? was it from heaven?

Please show me how that is so. Since my explanation does not sit well with you, I would like for you to show me, instead of just excusing it away.

The chronologies establish the FACT that elijah did NOT ascend/went into heaven.

2 Kings 2:1 & 11 - Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN. Does your Bible says anything different from what those verses say - or are you reading a KJV that only noetic16 wrote?

aletheia:

@Viaro & NoeticErr. . .just a question.
Where did Moses and Elijah appear from?

Dear aletheia, I would have to take up that question - but I perceive it would distract us for the moment, because I really don't want to give any room at all for either DeepSight or noetic16 to obfuscate issues here on the real gist of this thread.

Why?

Well, because in Moses' case, we know that he died and was buried (Deut. 34:5-6); but we do not read anywhere in any verse that Elijah died or was buried. What we do read in Elijah's case was that he went up into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11), and I would just like for the moment to deal with Elijah's own case - particular as it is the example I am using for DeepSight's enquiry about physical bodies entering the spiritual realms.

@noetic16,

noetic16:

My quote was clear. The bible talks of the death in Christ awaiting resurrection. . . . .it also talks of the patriarchs awaiting resurrection. u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave.

I did not confuse your quote, please. If anything, I tried to show that in particular reference to Enoch and Elijah, they did not experience death; and their bodies are not said to be the in the grave. That was all. Now if you argue to the contrary, please show me where it is written that -

(a) they (Enoch or Elijah) died
(b) that they were buried
(c) and being buried, they bodies were in the graves.

If you cannot show that, please let me know - so that we don't have to fill this page with unnecessary side commentaries that are NOT germane to this gist of the thread, thanks.

Enoch and elijah are not among the dead in Christ. . . , neither are they among the 3 patriarchs of Israel. So there is no where I stated that their bodies are in the grave.

Okay thanks - and your point initially that "u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave" was meant for the mechanical device of . . what?!?

If you know that something does not help you in this subject, do you mind keeping it away so this thread can be tidy? It seems that we have not even gone anywhere and you're already arguing against yourself. Huh?

The point is that the bodies of the saints in heaven remains in the grave.

Does that include Elijah's and Enoch's?

While they are in heaven in spiritual forms. . . . their bodies remain in the grave and awaits resurrection at the call of the Lord.

Mr noetic16, please stay on course. This is not about "the saints", but rather about specific examples - Elijah and Enoch. If you have any place where their bodies are in the graves, please show me - if not, please retain any such unnecessary arguments to yourself so we don't lose the trail of what indeed we set out to accomplish in this thread.

I did not make a platitude about ALL the saints - for which I specifically cited Elijah and Enoch. To come back and argue about Elijah and Enoch being "not among the dead in Christ. . . , neither are they among the 3 patriarchs of Israel" is a bit out of step with the whole inclination of the basic premise - that Elijah went up bodily INTO HEAVEN. This premise ("that Elijah went up bodily into heaven" is what Deepsight queries in my convictions, and that is what you have tried to query as well. But I still stand with already cited reasons to believe that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are simple and straight forward - Elijah went up into HEAVEN as the Scripture says.

This clearly affirms my primordial submission that no physical human body/entity has been to the spiritual plane.

Primordial or not, please I want to keep asking YOU: what then does 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say? What does it mean by what it says in declaring that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN??

I never used David or anyone to make a case for or against Enoch and Elijah. But it is clearly obvious that Enoch and Elijah are/were not in heaven.

Are you not the one who tried to drag in Adam and Eve here for a case - whether for or against the case of Elijah? Do you remember your own posts, or just typing away and coming back to eat back your words?

1. Can u produce one verse that says Enoch was taken to heaven?

Hebrews 11:5 - he was NOT FOUND because God had translated him. What does that mean to you?

what would be resurrected? is it not the body? why resurrect the body if it is already in heaven?

Did you carefully READ the passage and what I discussed? The gist of 1 Corinthians 15 is that the bodies shall be CHANGED - I made that point clear in my post with the word "changed". The changing of our bodies affects BOTH the dead in Christ and those who are alive when it happens. Who they are in every detail, I don't know. But I do know one fact: Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN as the Scriptures declare - and not one verse says anywhere that their bodies were on earth, in so far that he did not experience death.

I dont know where u got your ideas from. . , but I never insinuated that Elijah or Enoch had their bodies in a grave.

You did say that the bodies of the saints are in the grave - {". . . u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave"}. Now if you're categorically saying that excludes Enoch and Elijah, that is alright with me. So, please address my curiosity: where are their bodies, noetic16? Please don't come back with useless conjectures - just discuss with me and show me where their bodies are. Thanks in advance.

Let me shed more light on the grey areas you do not seem to perceive.

1. The bible talks about three kinds of heaven.
A. The first heaven is our immediate sky where birds fly and rain drops from . . . . .this heaven is described in genesis 7:11-12
B. The second heaven is the heaven refers to the outer space, the sun, moon, stars, planets and other "UNKNOWNS" . . . . this heaven is described in Genesis 26:4, psalm 8:3, deuteronomy 26:62, Isaiah 13:10, deuteronomy 1:10
C. The third heaven is the heaven where God lives with His angels. . . , .hebrews 8:1, deuteronomy 26:15 and 2corinthians 12:2

I am not unware of these spheres of the term "heaven" or "heavens". I do not know if you understood the hint that I was qite aware of these things (which was why in my reply to DeepSight earlier, I said: "The question is not so much that it does, but rather which 'realm' of heaven would we be referring to?". But thanks for your attempts - I appreciate all the same; but I don't necessarily take that as all conclusive.

A second problem that might bear for YOU is this: which of these spheres of the HEAVEN/HEAVENS do you wish or hope to convince DeepSight about as beyond the spatial constructs of time and space? How does that function and in what dimensional reality/realities - ontologically?

2. there are several places including the other planets where the bible describes as "heaven" . . . .this does NOT imply the dwelling place of God. . . .because Jesus was explicit in stating so (John 3:!3)

And your point was. . .?

3. So when I talk about the unknowns . . . . .I imply that Elijah and Enoch could have been taken to anywhere outside of the scope of our knowledge. , . but definitely NOT the heaven where God dwells.

Okay, first you deny that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - but now you are shifting the goal post to assent that he might indeed have been taken into (^^^^^^^) . . . but with a slight disclaimer that reads: 'anywhere outside the scope of our knowledge'. Sweet. Problem is that you're dancing around, dude.

You just told us about 3 spheres/realms of "heaven" - you would not be talking about them IF you did not know about them, yes? Yes.

But indeed, when it comes to Elijah, there's not a sphere you can identify - but you'd rather fling him to anywhere outside the scope of your knowledge. Thank you (in Italian, that is).

Dude, please, please, please . . . I've had a good day, I can't laugh enough!

Read after me: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Again: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Now opn your Bible and read it again until you master it: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".

Good.

Anywhere you don't understand within your 3 realms of "heaven" can do - just leave Elijah alone, you hear me?

this is rather cheap. . . . .this thread does not discuss the death of either Elijah or Enoch. . . .none of them DIED.

Fantastico! I hope your friend DeepSight can relax now - at least I hear a grumbling churning inside of him with a negation of his "gabm".

Enjoy.

viaro:


His statement needed to be interpreted in light of the context that appears both in John 3:13 AND Eph. 4:9-10. To ignore the fact of context is to arrive at pretext - which was what I was avoiding and so had to consider them. If you quote a verse all by itself and never consider its interpretation, you're violating the principle of Biblical exegesis - see 2 Peter 1:20 - 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation'. That tells us that we cannot arrive at any conclusions by just taking a single text without its context and arrive at preconceived pretexts, as you did.

Dude, you are not being objective  . . . . And keep a polite tone, dont get rude.

John 3:!3 . . . . Jesus talks in explicit terms about His coming for the redemption of man.
Eph 4:9-10 Paul talks of what happens after the death of Jesus . . .  .and there u are attempting to relate both to each other.
how are they related?

The fact before you is what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declares - Elijah went into HEAVEN by a whirlwind. How come you acknowledge the fact of the whirlwind and then excuse its concluding part of the same verse saying he went up into HEAVEN because you simply cannot acknowledge what it says? Please explain what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 may mean, instead of jumping the pail and not addressing those verses.

dude, what do u understand by the word heaven? . . . .the bible talks about several heavens. . . . .I emphasised on such in my last post ,  . .here is a quote

1. The bible talks about three kinds of heaven.
A. The first heaven is our immediate sky where birds fly and rain drops from . . . . .this heaven is described in genesis 7:11-12
B. The second heaven is the heaven refers to the outer space, the sun, moon, stars, planets and other "UNKNOWNS" . . . . this heaven is described in Genesis 26:4, psalm 8:3, deuteronomy 26:62, Isaiah 13:10, deuteronomy 1:10
C. The third heaven is the heaven where God lives with His angels. .  . ,  .hebrews 8:1, deuteronomy 26:15 and 2corinthians 12:2

2. there are several places including the other planets where the bible describes as "heaven" . . .  .this does NOT imply the dwelling place of God. . . .because Jesus was explicit in stating so (John 3:!3)

3. So when I talk about the unknowns . . . . .I imply that Elijah and Enoch could have been taken to anywhere outside of the scope of our knowledge. ,   .  but definitely NOT the heaven where God dwells.

This is mere conjecture - the verses you cited did NOT teach that the letter was written after the whirlwind experience - and I have outlined WHY that could not be. Please stop dressing this page with long unfounded excuses and denials, so you don't come back complaining about my lengthy replies.

King Jehoram ,  . . . .  ,  .  . . . . . . . . .received letter from Elijah
King Jehoram . . . . . . .  . ,  . . . . . ,  . .son of King Jehosaphat
King Jehosaphat . . . . . . . . . ,  .  . . ,   . .reigned during ELISHA's prophet hood
Elisha . ,  . ,  . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . , reigned after Elijah was taken up.

Dude wake up, Elijah sent his letter long after the whirlwind experience.  

What has the garden of Eden got to do with 2 Kings 2:1 & 11, noetic16?

Since u missed the point, I will re-emphasize it.

Elijah missed death and u assume twas because he was taken to heaven (dwelling place of God) . . . . by highlighting the garden of eden, I emphasised that there was also no death in the garden.

So my dear, the garden has all to do with Elijah's discourse.

Dude, please wake up - 2 kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - that has nothing to do with Eden. You are the one that said that Eden was on earth, remember? So what correlation is there between an Eden on EARTH and Elijah went up into HEAVEN?!? Please show me the link and let's read something to the point, please.

dude please wake up. I mentioned the garden to highlight the fact that[b] WE DO NOT KNOW THE LOCATION OF THE GARDEN. . . .THE SAME WAY WE DO NOT THE LOCATION OF WHERE ELIJAH WAS TAKEN TO.[/b]

I did not cite Adam and Eve as having gone into HEAVEN. Please stay on course.

very typical. when u become clueless, u throw up all sorts of irrelevant innuendos. (I dont mean to be offensive, but u do this quite often)
I did not at any time insinuate that u said Adam and Eve went into heaven. . . . . . . be at least honest and dont misrepresent my views. ur attempts show desperation and dishonesty.

I'm not the one alleging the 'liar' against the Lord Jesus; and I did not deny the meaning of His words in John 3:13. Instead of denying anything, I acknowledged them and tried to offer explanations in CONTEXT of what He might have meant - which indeed Ephesians 4:9-10 provided. Nor did I try to jump gun by equating Eden on earth (as you inferred) to be something akin to HEAVEN as is written in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11.

The simple problem is u cannot reconcile the words of Jesus in John 3:13 to ur position. . . .that explains ur maundering.
I have established why elijah did NOT go to heaven . . . . . .what u choose to do with ur ignorance is up to u  

If you have something to say beyond your denials, please do so. The explanations I gave are still there; I tried to stay on course - which is why you don't read me equating Eden on your earth to HEAVEN. Do you care to give something of substance as to what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 might mean beyond your denying them with excuses of Adam and Eve that have nothing to do with the case in point?

I am not making any denials. This thread is about ur  claims and not mine   I have nothing to deny.

A. the words of Jesus are there for anyone to read. John 3:!3

B. Eph 4:9-10 is there for anyone to read. It talks about the after-math of the sacrifice on the cross and not about ur Enoch and Elijah theory  

C. The letter of Elijah sent during the reign of Jehoram is there for anyone to understand why Elijah was in no heaven. . . Considering that Jehoram's father reigned in Elisha's time.

D. My explicit and detailed illustration of the biblical use of the word "HEAVEN" is there to educate any preconceived ignorance.

The statement Jesus made requires a contextual understanding in light of the warning of 2 Peter 1:20, or you might as well be saying that you enjoy violating the principles of Biblical exgesis. It is for that reason that I took time to show that Ephesians 4:9-10 explains what the "ascended" might mean, where it asks this question: "What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" Does that not show you that such a question is dealing with MEANINGS - and there, it is the MEANING of "he ascended"?

You keep telling all forms of LIES to conceal ur ignorance.

1. 2 peter 1:20 talks about prophecy .  . . , was Jesus making a prophetic call when He spoke in John3:!3 . . . . .perhaps u should read verse 12 to understand that Jesus was speaking in LITERAL terms.

2. Ascension and went up should literary mean the SAME thing within the context of Jesus statement.
whats the difference between "taken up", "went up into" "ascended" and what ever other terms u could come up with.

Even at that, please explain (or excuse) 2 kings 2:1 & 11 - it declares that indeed Elijah went up into HEAVEN. It does not say that Elijah's going up into HEAVEN is the same as what the ascending of Christ might have meant as explained in Ephesians 4:9-10. Do you care to leave your denials aside and then explain, exegete, elucidate on 2 Kings 2:1 & 11?!?

and whats the difference?

Whatever 'many have interpreted this to me', please I want your own explanation as to how you want to deny 2 Kings 2:1 & 11. That is all I'm asking of you - explain what Elijah's case might have been BEYOND YOUR CONJECTURES. Thanks.

I am not denying anything.

1. Elijah was taken up into heaven . .  . , but definitely not the same heaven Jehovah dwells in.

2. This fact is established by the very own words of Jesus in John 3:13

3. This fact is also established by the biblical usage of the term "heaven" which I expounded on already.

They do - that is why you fail to see them and just deny them without saying ANYTHING about their contextual meanings.

ok . . , here is what Eph4:9-10 says

9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


It talks of Jesus ascending into heaven and also descending into hades/hell (choose ur pick). It does not talk of Elijah or enoch  

No, Jesus is NOT a liar - and that was why I explained what He might have been pointing to in those passages we have read and repeatedly cited. If you reject context, then it is no wonder you're hell-bent on ascribing such perjorations to Jesus. I would rather that you keep your excuses and remain far more ignorant on matters you don't know about, than try to put up a front by alleging Jesus to be a liar.

Bro, u are simply trying to fit that statement by Jesus into ur position. Perhaps if u read it with an open mind. . . .starting from verse 12. . . u would see that Jesus was CLEAR . . .He was speaking no parable or prophecy . .  ,  .He was speaking in EXPLICIT terms.

What has the Garden of Eden got to do with the fact that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN?!? You can keep your conjectures about Eden on earth; but please don't humour yourself on your excuses - it's beginning to make me wonder about you.

dont tell me u still dont get the point about the garden of eden.

Leave the linguistic terms if they are beyond you. Just show me what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are saying without throwing some conjectural soup on the table.

  No, on the contrary they are not beyond me. . . .  .I just find them nd irrelevant and ridiculous distraction that lends no credence to ur lame arguments.

The Bible simple says: "the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind" and "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". When you're done denying what the Bible says, please let me know. But thanks for trying, anyways.

I have already educated u on the biblical usage of the term heaven. . . . I am sure if u look at it objectively, u would come up with self-sufficient posers to answer ur posers.

With love from noetic.  

aletheia:

@Viaro & NoeticErr. . .just a question.
Where did Moses and Elijah appear from?

Intelligent question/observation, , ,

1. Notice that the first ever recorded resurrection of beings going into heaven was done after Christ had died, ressurected and glorified. . .mathew 27:52-53

2. This implies that at the moment of transfiguration moses was still in the grave. This should readily answer ur question as to where moses and came from at the mount of transfiguration. , . . .also because Christ would later go into hades to resurrect those who died in holiness of all ages.

3. The case of Elijah is quite interesting. . . . . .I would take it up if the need arises.

^^^
OK. Thanks to both of you.

viaro:

@noetic16,

I did not confuse your quote, please. If anything, I tried to show that in particular reference to Enoch and Elijah, they did not experience death; and their bodies are not said to be the in the grave. That was all. Now if you argue to the contrary, please show me where it is written that -

  (a)  they (Enoch or Elijah) died
  (b)  that they were buried
   (c) and being buried, they bodies were in the graves.

If you cannot show that, please let me know - so that we don't have to fill this page with unnecessary side commentaries that are NOT germane to this gist of the thread, thanks.

Dude, get real for once.

elijah and Enoch died. . I have affirmed this FACT not less than 5 times on this thread. so what are u going on about?
The question is , . . .PHYSICAL BODIES DWELLING IN SPIRITUAL PLANE . . . .Did these folks live in heaven the dwelling place of Jehovah?

Okay thanks - and your point initially that "u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave" was meant for the mechanical device of . . what?!?

If you know that something does not help you in this subject, do you mind keeping it away so this thread can be tidy? It seems that we have not even gone anywhere and you're already arguing against yourself. Huh?

 

Does that include Elijah's and Enoch's?

I am sure I have answered this question a billion times  
If both of them did not die, how can they be in the grave?  

Mr noetic16, please stay on course. This is not about "the saints", but rather about specific examples - Elijah and Enoch. If you have any place where their bodies are in the graves, please show me - if not, please retain any such unnecessary arguments to yourself so we don't lose the trail of what indeed we set out to accomplish in this thread.

I did not make a platitude about ALL the saints - for which I specifically cited Elijah and Enoch. To come back and argue about Elijah and Enoch being "not among the dead in Christ. . . , neither are they among the 3 patriarchs of Israel" is a bit out of step with the whole inclination of the basic premise - that Elijah went up bodily INTO HEAVEN. This premise ("that Elijah went up bodily into heaven" is what Deepsight queries in my convictions, and that is what you have tried to query as well. But I still stand with already cited reasons to believe that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are simple and straight forward - Elijah went up into HEAVEN as the Scripture says.

 

Primordial or not, please I want to keep asking YOU: what then does 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say? What does it mean by what it says in declaring that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN??

have u been reading at all?   I am sure I already emphasised the biblical meanings of heaven.

Are you not the one who tried to drag in Adam and Eve here for a case - whether for or against the case of Elijah? Do you remember your own posts, or just typing away and coming back to eat back your words?

 

Hebrews 11:5 - he was NOT FOUND because God had translated him. What does that mean to you?

It means just what was stated. . . .He was not found. It does NOT mean he was taken into heaven

Did you carefully READ the passage and what I discussed? The gist of 1 Corinthians 15 is that the bodies shall be CHANGED - I made that point clear in my post with the word "changed". The changing of our bodies affects BOTH the dead in Christ and those who are alive when it happens. Who they are in every detail, I don't know. But I do know one fact: Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN as the Scriptures declare - and not one verse says anywhere that their bodies were on earth, in so far that he did not experience death.

You did say that the bodies of the saints are in the grave - {". . . u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave"}. Now if you're categorically saying that excludes Enoch and Elijah, that is alright with me. So, please address my curiosity: where are their bodies, noetic16? Please don't come back with useless conjectures - just discuss with me and show me where their bodies are. Thanks in advance.

 

I am not unware of these spheres of the term "heaven" or "heavens". I do not know if you understood the hint that I was qite aware of these things (which was why in my reply to DeepSight earlier, I said: "The question is not so much that it does, but rather which 'realm' of heaven would we be referring to?". But thanks for your attempts - I appreciate all the same; but I don't necessarily take that as all conclusive.

A second problem that might bear for YOU is this: which of these spheres of the HEAVEN/HEAVENS do you wish or hope to convince DeepSight about as beyond the spatial constructs of time and space? How does that function and in what dimensional reality/realities - ontologically?

1. your posts on this thread shows clearly that u were UNAWARE of the biblical realms of heaven. . .else u would not make a scene from my explanations on "unknown places" and "the garden of eden" . Please give me the credit, I have educated ur ignorance  

2. I have stated explicitly that the realm of heaven Enoch and Elijah were taken into refers mainly to the second realm I defined. They were not taken to the first realm (the abode of God and his angels) but were taken to outer bodies and other places we are unaware of. This is largely because Jesus said NO one had ever been to the heaven where God and His angels reside. and also because Elijah wrote a letter long after his whirl wind experience.

3. I do not intend to convince DS about anything. I did state to him, when he made his case against your assertions, that his case cannot be proven (for or against) outside the scope of "spiritualism". Implying that no one can intellectually or scientifically ascertain if a man can live bodily in the spiritual realm. DS will forever live in ignorance if he does not subscribe to biblical truths.  

4. The ontological functioning of this realm IMO relates directly to man's functioning in other known/unknown planets and the moon. while it is inconceivable that man would survive in planet mercury . . . .there are however unknown planets/places where man CAN survive IMO. One of such is the biblical garden of eden.

And your point was. . .?

My point was that Jesus talking about heaven in John 3:13 was definitely not talking about the second realm as expounded on this thread.

Okay, first you deny that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - but now you are shifting the goal post to assent that he might indeed have been taken into (^^^^^^^) . . . but with a slight disclaimer that reads: 'anywhere outside the scope of our knowledge'. Sweet. Problem is that you're dancing around, dude.

You just told us about 3 spheres/realms of "heaven" - you would not be talking about them IF you did not know about them, yes? Yes.

But indeed, when it comes to Elijah, there's not a sphere you can identify - but you'd rather fling him to anywhere outside the scope of your knowledge. Thank you (in Italian, that is).

Dude, please, please, please . . . I've had a good day, I can't laugh enough!

Read after me: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Again: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Now opn your Bible and read it again until you master it: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".

Good.

Anywhere you don't understand within your 3 realms of "heaven" can do - just leave Elijah alone, you hear me?

Fantastico!  I hope your friend DeepSight can relax now - at least I hear a grumbling churning inside of him with a negation of his "gabm".

Enjoy.

Dude, that was not rocket science.

If Jesus said Elijah was NOT in realm 3.
and realm 1 is for rain and our immediate sky . . . . . . . . . .where then would Elijah be?

EXPO . .  . . . .realm 2.  

viaro:


That statement you have supposed would be from 1 Corinthians 15:50 - "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The Kingdom of God is not to be confused for the simple subject about the possibility of physical bodies entering into heaven. As regards the latter, I have shown what Scripture declares - that Elijah went into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11); but at "the resurrection", that is when we find that 'the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom' (Daniel 7:22 cf. 12:2-3).

This is comical. Are you asserting your scripture to be contradictory?

1. Scripture asserts Elijah went to Heaven

2. Jesus asserts that NO MAN had entered heaven before he descended from Heaven.

So which is it schoolboy?

This is an ineluctable contradiction in your surmise.

At all events I am rather tired of reminding you: and you have never responded to this – that if indeed your vanishing Prophet never died: then this only represents another inescapable contradiction in your ancient book of fables, to wit –

1. The bible states that all men are tainted with sin and thus must die

2. It further states that Jesus’ sacrifice is the only means by which man can escape death

3. AND YET YOUR VANISHING PROPHET IS EXEMPTED FROM DEATH EVER BEFORE JESUS COMMENCES HIS PARADE IN GALILEE!

Another sickening and iron-cast contradiction in your surmise.

So which really is it schoolboy?

Tell us again, the fantastic bedside stories of your conflicting bible ? ? ?

The verse 1 Cor. 15:50 does not negate the basic point for which you raised this thread and invited me - the question of whether physical bodies enter into heaven.

O will you stop contradicting yourself and dribbling about? ? ? Of course that verse directly denies that physical bodies enter spiritual realms – which is anyhow in consonance with the most elementary commonsense.

That basic of all enquiries has been answered, and I had anticipated that you guys who argue to the contrary would not be able to oblige my request to find me a single verse that declares that Elijah or Enoch had suffered death. Do you care to do so now?

Are you losing your sense of direction, Viaro?

Did you hear me whimper a single word about the death of any of your vanishing prophets in this thread?

Slap! Focus young man!

The thread states clearly – Do Physical bodies rise and dwell in spiritual realms?

Focus on that – nobody here is discussing the death of your vanishing prophet.

For all I care he could be on Mars fully alive now – that is none of my business – so I am NOT required to prove his death to you as I did not say any such thing in this thread.

The spiritual realms are NOT beyond space and time - in your own worldview, maybe . . . but not in the Christian worldview. As far as 'time' (whatever and however one may define it), it affects such spiritual realms as 'heaven'. The question is not so much that it does, but rather which 'realm' of heaven would we be referring to?

Why don’t YOU tell us exactly which spiritual realm you are attempting to force H2O and other physical elements into?

Now get this straight, schoolboy – we live in a three dimensional spatial construct.

Realms which YOU admit are intangible, non-physical and immaterial cannot be compatible with such constructs as our three dimensional bodies.

This is elementary logic and I would have been at odds that you can not grasp this – save that I have become verily used to your rather bizarre assertions.

Can we imagine the ridicule of all commonsense entailed in forcing materialism into immaterialism. Perhaps since this is possible, we may carry your physical house and also one day transport it to an intangible realm – to heaven!

Son, you are not employed as a comedian, or a court jester, so please kindly quit these ridiculous assertions NOW before you destroy the work of a lifetime and are forced into a third reincarnation as “pilgrim.2.”(f)

And in what dimensional continuum are you making your assertion that is nothing more than a conjuring of your own limited thinking?

And since your own thinking is not limited I will expect that you will choose the choicest location for your physical house . . . not Long Island or Beverly Hills – but heaven! Go, ahead, apply for a plot of “land” in heaven and transport your physical dwellings there, since it is possible for physical things to enter the intangible.

I will be happy to pay you a physical visit in that intangible realm. While you are at it reserve in your physical refrigerator in the intangible realm for me some physical bottles of Guinness stout.

I am sure Elijah can arrange that.

What clownishness.

There is not a single verse showing that Elijah shed his physical body here on earth before entering the 'heaven' of which 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 speak; and I have asked you repeatedly to show me any verse to the contrary. Care to do so now?

No thanks. I did not talk about Elijah’s death so that is your kettle of fish.

Deep Sight:

This is comical. Are you asserting your scripture to be contradictory?

No - and I have explained what you need to know. If you have any cogent objection that the Scriptures do not say what we have seen them to say, please quote them precisely and let's discuss, thanks.

1. Scripture asserts Elijah went to Heaven

2. Jesus asserts that NO MAN had entered heaven before he descended from Heaven.

So which is it schoolboy?

John 3:13 is explained in Ephesians 4:9-10; whereas I did not apply John3:13 or Ephesians 4:9-10 in either Elijah or Enoch's case, despite the fact that 2 Kings 2:11 records that Elijah went up into HEAVEN. The reason is simple: Elijah's case is not the same "ascension" as in Christ's case - that much we know from Ephesians 4:9, because Elijah had not come down from heaven before he was taken into HEAVEN. Please you and noetic16 should acknowledge that I did not confuse between Ephesians 4, John 3 and 2 Kings 2. I have explained, but rather than denying anything, I have hoped for long that you gusy would be more genial in posting an exegesis of those verses instead of repeatedly denying them.

This is an ineluctable contradiction in your surmise.

It is not. If you have anything to share in the body of my post, please do so.

At all events I am rather tired of reminding you: and you have never responded to this – that if indeed your vanishing Prophet never died: then this only represents another inescapable contradiction in your ancient book of fables, to wit –

Oh please already!

I have asked you to show me any verse where Elijah died - DeeepSight, did you show me any such verse till date? WHERE? When?

Why is it that you in particular are so deceitful as to never answer any request and then turn round to use uncouth insinuations in the so-called "chat" you engineered here? If you're not interested in dealing with issues with any thread of maturity in your veins, please kindly let me know and let me leave you to your affairs, thanks.

1. The bible states that all men are tainted with sin and thus must die
2. It further states that Jesus’ sacrifice is the only means by which man can escape death
3. AND YET YOUR VANISHING PROPHET IS EXEMPTED FROM DEATH EVER BEFORE JESUS COMMENCES HIS PARADE IN GALILEE!

Another sickening and iron-cast contradiction in your surmise.

Please show me any verse that says that Elijah died - that is all.

Tell us again, the fantastic bedside stories of your conflicting bible ? ? ?

Deep Sight, when you opened this thread, I responded that if you're not seeking a discussion, you could kindly end it instead of proceeding. I have long left you and your deceit - incase you never noticed. I entered this thread because someone tried to persuade me that you might have returned a better discussant, but no.

I'm sorry, I do not wish to pursue these banters of insolence with you. I know what peple have said already when you went on your exile, and I don't want my name dragged around with your loss.

I'm still very open indeed if and only if you want to discuss, not provide any grounds for insolence, thanks.

Further ontological rebuttals -

 1. If tangible things exist in intnagible realms - then such realms are no longer "intangible" or "immaterial" as material and tangible elements now exist therein. Thus there are no intangible realms according to Viaro. Thus spiritual heavens do not exist.

 2. If Jesus rose with his physical body and currently dwells in "heaven" with his physical body,  - and given that Jesus is God -

- - - - > Then GOD IS DWELLING IN HEAVEN WITH A PHYSICAL BODY.

I LAUGH IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

@noetic16,

noetic16:

Dude, you are not being objective  . . . . And keep a polite tone, dont get rude.

My apologies - I indeed welcome your request and will oblige.

John 3:!3 . . . . Jesus talks in explicit terms about His coming for the redemption of man.
Eph 4:9-10 Paul talks of what happens after the death of Jesus . . .  .and there u are attempting to relate both to each other.
how are they related?

I explained the relation/correlation between them. If you do have any problem with my explanations, I would have hoped that you point them out exegetically. I deeply appreciate when things are done that way rather than merely denying issues.

dude, what do u understand by the word heaven? . . . .the bible talks about several heavens. . . . .I emphasised on such in my last post ,  . .here is a quote

I replied already - see my penultimate rejoinder.

King Jehoram ,  . . . .  ,  .  . . . . . . . . .received letter from Elijah
King Jehoram . . . . . . .  . ,  . . . . . ,  . .son of King Jehosaphat
King Jehosaphat . . . . . . . . . ,  .  . . ,   . .reigned during ELISHA's prophet hood
Elisha . ,  . ,  . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . , reigned after Elijah was taken up.

Noetic16, please tell me: how does the chronology above deny the fact of what is stated in 2 Kings 2:11 that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN? What does that verse say to you?

Dude wake up, Elijah sent his letter long after the whirlwind experience.  

Okay, I'll keep it civil and ask yet again: how does the chronology deny the fact of what is stated in 2 Kings 2:11 that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN?

Since u missed the point, I will re-emphasize it.

Elijah missed death and u assume twas because he was taken to heaven (dwelling place of God) . . . . by highlighting the garden of eden, I emphasised that there was also no death in the garden.

That again answers absolutely nothing in Elijah's case.

1. YOU of all people said plainly that Eden might be somewhere on earth, no?
Here's your quote in post #19 - "Because we do know that the garden is in this earth and Adam lived there".

2.  But again and again you keep missing the gist of the fact of what is stated in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 - Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN, it is NOT somewhere unknown on the EARTH!

3.  Wherefore I would now ask you: what is the correlation between an Eden on EARTH and Elijah's going into HEAVEN?

As far as I've been trying to follow you, you don't seem to be explaining HEAVEN in 2 Kings 2:11 other than constaantly denying what it says yet drawing upon unrelated insinuations (Adam, Even and Eden) for the denials. This is what I need for you to sort out presently, if you may.

So my dear, the garden has all to do with Elijah's discourse.

Please show me what and how that is - particularly how Elijah going into HEAVEN is something to be narrowed to an Eden on EARTH.

dude please wake up. I mentioned the garden to highlight the fact that[b] WE DO NOT KNOW THE LOCATION OF THE GARDEN. . . .THE SAME WAY WE DO NOT THE LOCATION OF WHERE ELIJAH WAS TAKEN TO.[/b]

1.   Please calm down. You said that eden is on earth; that's what you said. If you did not have a clue about any Eden on EARTH, why did you assert it so?

2.   Whatever the location of the realm, the Bible declares that Elijah went up into HEAVEN, not earth. Why are you repeatedly denying that simple fact?

very typical. when u become clueless, u throw up all sorts of irrelevant innuendos. (I dont mean to be offensive, but u do this quite often)

Okay, I acknowedge it. Now please provide me answers to the questions I'm asking you, thanks.

I did not at any time insinuate that u said Adam and Eve went into heaven. . . . . . . be at least honest and dont misrepresent my views. your attempts show desperation and dishonesty.

I'm not being desperate or dishonest. I mentioned that I did not cite Adam and Eve as examples for the scenario of someone being taken to HEAVEN bodily. I did not see what your point was in drawing upon Adam and Eve on earth for the enquiry of someone being taken to HEAVEN as in Elijah's case. What was desperate or dishonest about that?

The simple problem is u cannot reconcile the words of Jesus in John 3:13 to your position. . . .that explains your maundering.

I have reconciled it - but I don't read you anywhere exaplining the relation between 2 Kings 2:11 and John 3:13. Incase you had done so, please post it again and remind me, thanks.

I have established why elijah did NOT go to heaven . . . . . .what u choose to do with your ignorance is up to u  

No problem. Ignorant as you think I might be, the Bible says Elijah went up into HEAVEN in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11. Could you please quote those verses as they appear in your own Bible and then explain it to readers? Much obliged.

I am not making any denials. This thread is about your  claims and not mine   I have nothing to deny.

No problem - I have tried to explain my claims, denied no verse, posted and explained them, and that is what I'm still doing. I could fetch so many quotes already in this verse where you have categorically denied what 2 Kings 2:1 &11 declares about Elijah going into HEAVEN. Do you want me to do so?

A. the words of Jesus are there for anyone to read. John 3:!3

Which I ddid not deny but rather explained in light of the context of what the NT means by Christ's having ascended.

B. Eph 4:9-10 is there for anyone to read. It talks about the after-math of the sacrifice on the cross and not about your Enoch and Elijah theory  

As any objective reader would recollect, I have already made clear that Ephesians 4:9-10 is not about Elijah or Enoch - see again from post #37:
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viaro: 4.   It is clear therefore that when Christ spoke of "ascended" in John 3:13 He was clearly making that statement in context of what issued from His death and resurrection - which is not the case for any other man, and definitely not the case for either Enoch or Elijah.

viaro: 6.   As you can see,  "ascended" was cited in reference to Christ, and not as you alleged was used for either Elijah or Enoch. Some might argue that ascended is the same thing as 'went up' - but that would be a fallacy in view of the fact that the former in context was defined in the NT (John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10), and neither case is confused the one for the other

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Therefore, you cannot turn round now and allege that I was making either John 3:13 and/or Ephesians 4:9-10 applicable to either Elijah or Enoch. I hope you can see that?

C. The letter of Elijah sent during the reign of Jehoram is there for anyone to understand why Elijah was in no heaven. . . Considering that Jehoram's father reigned in Elisha's time.

So what does 2 Kings 2:1 &11 say? Please quote it and explain it, not deny what it says.

@noetic16,

D. My explicit and detailed illustration of the biblical use of the word "HEAVEN" is there to educate any preconceived ignorance.

Thanks - after my ignorance, I still note that you did not place Elijah in any of the heavens you identified, even though the Bible says simply that Elijah went up into HEAVEN. Why is that so?

You keep telling all forms of LIES to conceal your ignorance.

Where have I lied, noetic16?

1. 2 peter 1:20 talks about prophecy . . . , was Jesus making a prophetic call when He spoke in John3:!3 . . . . .perhaps u should read verse 12 to understand that Jesus was speaking in LITERAL terms.

It still is all the same - you do not interprete any verse simply on its own - to do so is to violate the Biblical principle of sound exegesis. You can also check with 1 Cor. 2:13 - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

Yet, in any case, Ephesians 4:9 asks the question about what "he ascended" means; and then explains in that verse that it takes into cognizance the fact that He descened first into the lower parts. . . with verse 10 explaining the import issuing from the event.

As at the time that Christ spoke in John 3:13, it is clear it was in reference to His prophetic death and resurrection, for He had not gone to the Cross when He spoke those words. But He noted indeed that - 'no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven'. . . and yet also that "even the Son of man which is in heaven", though He spoke on earth.

In any case, where did I lie to you, noetic16? Have I tried to deny the fact that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went into HEAVEN?!? Is that not what you have rather been doing? Please quote those verses and let your readers see what it says, if you may.

2. Ascension and went up should literary mean the SAME thing within the context of Jesus statement.
whats the difference between "taken up", "went up into" "ascended" and what ever other terms u could come up with.

Because Ephesians 4:9 explains that in context of Christ's ascension, it does not mean the same as in Elijah's case - for Elijah did NOT first descend into the lower parts of the earth.

and whats the difference?

As above.

I am not denying anything.

You did - several times.

1. Elijah was taken up into heaven . . . , but definitely not the same heaven Jehovah dwells in.

Okay, now you acknowledge that Elijah was taken up into HEAVEN, yes? Good. Does this sound like your previous statement:
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noetic16:

The chronologies establish the FACT that elijah did NOT ascend/went into heaven.

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It seems that you're not sure what to do in this subject and must by default ignore what the Bible teaches until you come to a dead end of your arguments. On the one hand, after denying several times that Elijah went up into HEAVEN as we read in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11, you tunr round now to affirm the opposite of your denials. Well done sir.

2. This fact is established by the very own words of Jesus in John 3:13

Which still does not deny 2 Kings 2:11.

3. This fact is also established by the biblical usage of the term "heaven" which I expounded on already.

To mean. . . ?

ok . . , here is what Eph4:9-10 says

9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


It talks of Jesus ascending into heaven and also descending into hades/hell (choose your pick). It does not talk of Elijah or enoch

I did not apply Ephesians 4:9-10, did I? Please quote me where I did, thanks.

Bro, u are simply trying to fit that statement by Jesus into your position. Perhaps if u read it with an open mind. . . .starting from verse 12. . . u would see that Jesus was CLEAR . . .He was speaking no parable or prophecy . . , .He was speaking in EXPLICIT terms.

I did not try to force-fit anything - which was why I explained them and showed that I did not deny or twist 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 at anytime. The only person who has said again and again that Elijah DID NOT go into HEAVEN is you, noetic16. That is a fact you can't deny now, if you're going to be honest with yourself.

dont tell me u still dont get the point about the garden of eden.

It has noting to do with Elijah who went up into HEAVEN - I explained this before, please refer.

No, on the contrary they are not beyond me. . . . .I just find them nd irrelevant and ridiculous distraction that lends no credence to your lame arguments.

No worries. All I'm after is good reason from what the Bible says, not you repeatedly denials which we have seen so far.

I have already educated u on the biblical usage of the term heaven. . . . I am sure if u look at it objectively, u would come up with self-sufficient posers to answer your posers.

I have not seen you offer any answers to my simple question as to 2 Kings 2:1 &11 - you first denied that it was so; came back to now acknowledge the fact; but still unable to hold a consistency thus far.

With love from noetic.

The pleasure is mine, thanks.

@noetic16,

This is one example why I wonder that you are on a denial trip:

noetic16:

Dude, get real for once.

elijah and Enoch died. . I have affirmed this FACT not less than 5 times on this thread. so what are u going on about?

I am not going to do anything about other than observe that you're affirming your own denials over 5 times. This is what Hebrews 11:5 says - "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" - that is what the Bible says; and I can't do anything about your denying what Scripture says.

So, please excuse me here - as I can't go on attending your repeated denials, I'd rather attend unto something else. In the event that either you or DeepSight would be mature enough to be honest in this thread, viaro would be glad to join you in the discussion.

Until then, you've seen the last of viaro in this thread.

Cheers.

viaro:


Until then, you've seen the last of viaro in this thread.

Ha ha. Escapist. ‘Fraid to be man enough to address your own appalling misconceptions?

Frankly statements such as you have made in this thread are generally reserved for persons requiring urgent attention from an expert in the neurological sciences.

Here are the very clear statements you have made once again –


1. You state that God lives in Heaven in a Physical Body

a. You stated that Jesus ascended into heaven with a physical body

b. You state that Jesus is God.

c. Thus inescapable conclusion – God is in heaven with a physical body.


2. You state that Spiritual realms do not exist

a. You state that physical things enter into spiritual realms bodily

b. If that is the case such realms are not immaterial anymore – as they contain material things

c. It follows that immaterial realms do not exist


3. You state that Jesus sacrifice was not necessary for man to defeat death

a. You state that All men require the sacrifice of Jesus to reach heaven

b. But you state that Elijah and Enoch reached and dwelt in heaven even before Jesus’ sacrifice

c. Thus, inescapably, they did not need the sacrifice

d. Thus the sacrifice is useless in redeeming man from death.


Son, you are a professional clown.

^^^ With the foregoing statements, I would not be surprised if you are indeed Mavenbox, afterall.

For only that character do i know to make such outlandish and patently off-centre remarks.

viaro:

@noetic16,

This is one example why I wonder that you are on a denial trip:

I am not going to do anything about other than observe that you're affirming your own denials over 5 times. This is what Hebrews 11:5 says - "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" - that is what the Bible says; and I can't do anything about your denying what Scripture says.

So, please excuse me here - as I can't go on attending your repeated denials, I'd rather attend unto something else. In the event that either you or DeepSight would be mature enough to be honest in this thread, viaro would be glad to join you in the discussion.

Until then, you've seen the last of viaro in this thread.

Cheers.

Dude that quote was in ERROR. . . .  .largely due to the lack of substance in your replies.
I have stated in no less than 5 places on this thread that Elijad and Enoch did NOT see death.

. . .   .and that escape was rather lame.