annyplenty:

EJI OGBE

this is the first chapter of the IFA chapters. it tells alot about how Olodumare created the universe from Ifa's perspective. It also tells alot about Orunmila and his assignment to human beings. eji-ogbe is generally regarded as the father of other chapters. It also says alot about destiny and also emphasizes the roles of wifes on husbands success' or failures and also mentions children as being important.

Thanks AnnyPlenty.

Children born under this odu stand out from the crowd. They are very distinctive people full of originality. The child will be the source of the querents solutions to life's problems.

Also there is the possibility that the wife might leave or has left the querent and he is advised to go back and appease the wife cos she is his fortune.
No matter how brilliant and original the child of eji Ogbe is it will end in frustration and failure if he is not circumspect and learns to cooperate with forces around him. He can't do anything on his own.

For the uniformed mind who might have been reading about all this ifa stuff, it is an interesting discovery that the religion is so "advanced".

But to all you ifa students, initiates, and prosilytes (ope the spelling is right), please let us know the following:
1) If obatala is the creator, then who is Olodumare?

2) Who and what is Ela?

3) Who is Oluorogbo?

4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus

5) If worship of sango , for example, truely predates christianity and islam, why then does the oriki of sango contain verses that indicate that he was versed in Islamic prayers and the quran? Remember that most of the Yoruba orisas are of similar age.

6) What is the place of human sacrifice, still being practised in Yoruba land for their oros (deities), in your ifa morality?

No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. _{I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA}

Mowire:

For the uniformed mind who might have been reading about all this ifa stuff, it is an interesting discovery that the religion is so "advanced".

But to all you ifa students, initiates, and prosilytes (ope the spelling is right), please let us know the following:
1) If obatala is the creator, then who is Olodumare?

2) Who and what is Ela?

3) Who is Oluorogbo?

4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus

5) If worship of sango , for example, truely predates christianity and islam, why then does the oriki of sango contain verses that indicate that he was versed in Islamic prayers and the quran? Remember that most of the Yoruba orisas are of similar age.

6) What is the place of human sacrifice, still being practised in Yoruba land for their oros (deities), in your ifa morality?

No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. _{I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA}

Why Verbal attacks? I'll have a go at answering your questions.
1)Olodumare is God almighty, the ultimate source of everything. Obatala is a messenger of Olodumare who is sent to create forms. He creates the earth and he molds the human body. I don't think the yoruba envisage olodumare as 'doing' anything as such. All the 'doing' is done by the orisha.

2)Ela is Orunmila. It is also one side of a duality on the Ifa tray (opon ifa). The other side is Esu. The two are represented on the opon ifa facing opposite each other.

3)Oluorogbo. Interestingly, I was not aware of oluorogbo before I read your post. I googled it and this is what I found.

Oluorogbo & Abdulkarim

Every religion talks about someone who came and went some time ago. The central figure is always said to have left some time ago. And one is to spend a lifetime searching for him without ever meeting him.

The original name of Jesus is Oluorogbo. The original name of Mohammed is Abdulkarim. They both existed in this geographical region called Nigeria. Nazareth, Galilee, Mecca, Medina were originally here in Nigeria.

Christianity talks about someone called Jesus (Jeyus Irus) that came and went without giving a specific day of return. Mohammedanism, subject to interpretations says the same thing. Buddhism also says something similar. Oduduwa also came and left. I deliberately include his name here because he is of the same rank as the original people behind these aliases. A line can be drawn linking each of these saviors; when they finish their work, they hand over to the next person. The question is: Who were these people? Part of the answer is that they were never Europeans.

The oracle in a town in Akure, Ondo State has spoken that some ancient footprints found near a river are the footprints of Oluorogbo. Oluorogbo was born in Ibadan, Oyo State by his mother Moremi. By the way, Moremi is too ancient for most people to translate, but how did I get the meaning?

From here:
http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/oluorogbo.htm

Then came Moremi on the scene—like Deborah of the Old Testament. When no man could dare the Igbos, Moremi asked the Esinminrin river for help and promised to give offerings if she could save her people. The orisa told her to allow herself to be captured and to understudy the Igbo people. She did, and discovered that these were not spirits; only people with raffia for dress. She escaped, and taught her people the trick. The next time that Igbo people came, they were roundly defeated. Moremi then had to go back to Esinminrin to thank the gods. Every offering she offered was refused. On divination, she was told she had to give Oluorogbo, her only son. She did. The lesson of Moremi is the lesson of patriotism and selflessness.

From here:
http://www.uga.edu/aflang/YORUBA/ODUDUWA.htm

So it seems that Oluorogbo was Moremi's son who was sacrificed to free the yoruba. This is a common mythological pattern though.

4) I see where you going with the comparison to Jesus. I thing this guy . . .
http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/oluorogbo.htm
makes the point very clearly. I won't dismiss it out of hand, but I'm not convinced ( to put it mildly).

5) I don't know about yoruba orisha being a similar age. How do you arrive at that conclusion? As for Sango being a master of Islamic prayers I think that demonstrates that the process of mythogenesis isn't dead in yoruba religion. There are also Ifa verses that mention oyinbos and guns. I've heard the recitation of an ifa verse that speaks of the invention of the telephone.

6) I've heard conflicting accounts as to the attitude to human sacrifice. No doubt Yoruba did and still do practice human sacrifice. I've read in Ifa books that Ifa does not accept human sacrifice. I think the Odu that goes into this is Irete meji. There are many religious traditions that the yoruba followed and the Ifa cult is just one, the largest one.
There is also the possibility that denial of human sacrifice by Ifa adherents is a reaction to the disdain of Europeans for the practice. I have yet to come across human sacrifice being promoted in Ifa literature.

Pastor AIO:

Hi Krayola.  Where do you study?  Which Univ?  What courses are involved in your major?  I'm very curious about this now.  

hmm,  this might be a long post because u're the 1st person thats ever been interested in what i'm studying so i'm going to talk your head off,  . Most of my Nigerian relatives are very dismissive and think I'm just trying to avoid the "hard" work of the science and business programs.

I'm at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada.

The courses that are absolutely required are

any 2 of the following 3 courses

Religions of the East: 1st year course which is basically an intro to the Eastern traditions,  hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Chinese religion, Confucianism, Sikhism. Its just like a crash course.

Religions of the West: Also a first year course that is an intro to the Western traditions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. (I didn't take this course because I had already taken the full 2nd year course on Judaism and quite a few on Christianity, I'm taking full courses on Islam and Buddhism next semester)

The Study of religion: basically we look at a bunch of methodological and theoretical approaches to studying religion. It is like an intro into stepping out of our comfort zones and looking at religion "objectively" and critically.

Then we have to take full courses on at least 3 of the major traditions. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.

1st year, I took a course on the Bible where we basically went thru the Bible from A-Z. Also took an Intro. to theology course
2nd year,  I took a full course on Christian history last semester (I was blessed to have an amazing professor that made the stuff so much fun) and it was a big eye opener for me. The Europeans destroyed so much in the name of "God', especially in Latin America.
I took a 2nd year course on Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah),  Very fascinating stuff. Reading some of the posts on this thread about Ifa religion actually reminded me about some stuff from that course.

I took a 3rd year course on Anabaptist history and theology (The Radical Reformation),  I learned sooo much from this,  and it gave me a better understanding about how all this apocalyptic, prophetic and "highway robbery" Christianity came into existence.

Also some courses on spirituality and the psychology of religion,  we study Jung,  Erik Erikson,James Fowler etc.

haha,  ok,  i'll post you a link to my school's list and descriptions of the Rel. stud courses so you can see all the courses available. I'll also post a link so you see what courses are required to get a degree,  that way you can see what body of "knowledge" a graduating student might have acquired, which, i think, is what you are interested in.

Course list (click on the links for descriptions): http://religiousstudies.uwaterloo.ca/courses.html
Course requirements: http://www.religiousstudies.uwaterloo.ca/undergrad.html


Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.  

Pastor,

Can't give much of response now. Burnt enough gas running gen here.

However, when you start to study all of the story you should not be suprised to see a lot of manipulations geared towards making things acceptable.

the Oluorogbo in question, for example, is not the Moremi's son version. Really there are different versions to all the Yoruba orisas origin.

Tomorrow may be.

@ Mowire

I don't know anything about this stuff, but I can say this. Religion isnt a science,  and there are always questions, contradictions, and all sorts of interpretations. Religion does not provide "answers", but "meaning" which is a relative term. No religion has one definite, generally accepted doctrine, or mythology, rituals etc. just my 2 cents.

haha,  I guess it came out wrong. I meant that i was learning a lot from your debate and was eager to read more, because you both have so much knowledge about this stuff.

Were you raised in the tradition or did you just learn about it on your own or in school?

Well, I appreciate your response.  To be honest, Pastor is far more advanced than I am in IFA.  To your question, it might surprise you to know that my knowledge of IFA is very recent and it came about as the outcome of a discussion in another post with Pastor AIO.  I was setting up some programming for report charts in ODBC and the sequencing of the numbers totalled 256. I knew that 256 is a principal number in IFA.  Also, in design of experiments, the standard matrix for doing failure test is 256 - an array of 16x8.  My interest grew in the connection between maths, number array, sequencing, base 2 numbers and so I studied the symetrical and chonological order of the odus and it was evident that a connection existed.  To be sure, I came here and asked if there was a connection between IFA and computing.  Pastor challenged me to look it up.  What you see on this forum are some of my findings.  

I have been asked to clarify the point I am making on quantum physics and IFA.  There is a body of knowledge in the universe.  It is not exclusive to any race or culture but the sum part of the sub knowledge form a whole.  It is division of labor on a grand scale - at a universal level.  Man is not created to serve himself.  Man is created to be of service to other mankind.  To achieve that higher purpose successfully, the ego must be tamed.  When the ego is untamed, then man believes in his prowess and mightiness and is tempted to subdue everyone to his service, forgetting, or sometimes just completely refusing to be of service to anyone.  Fulfillment is accomplished through service.  So that in an ideal coexistence with no exploitation, no first class, second class race, the higher purpose of the white race is to uplift its abilities to bear benefit of service to the other human races.  The higher purpose of the black race is to uplift its capabilities to bear benefit of service to the other races in the universe.  When race A and race B have attained self-actualization in their individual ethnic group then their state of discipline has matured sufficiently that they can relate at peer level for benefits and services.  IFA is a capability and a way of enlightenement.  In every verse it reminds of the need to watch the ego and to reach out selflessly, to seek compromise, to be calm and modest and to seek prosperity through partnership and wisdom.  Well, IFA is a body of knowledge for Blacks.  On the other side of it, Science.  Applied Physics and Applied Maths teach excatly the same principles but these are body of knowledge for the white race.  By bringing it here, it is an attempt to illustrate that we have no excuse not to excell and we have no excuse not to be a principal player in the activities of mankind to push evolution forward.  We have it both ways, first through our heritage in IFA and we have it in our academic scholarship of applied sciences.   If the argument is that IFA is unacceptable, then applied science should be a palatable alternative for the academicians.  One way or another we all are reformers and carry the burden to transform Africa and the race.  Our inaction today will only increase the depth and weight of the assignment for future generations.  


Pastor, I am shocked.  You are accurate, yes, I am aquarius.  lol,  I guess other people signs, no one has ever guessed my sign correctly.

Negro_Ntns:

Well, I appreciate your response.  To be honest, Pastor is far more advanced than I am in IFA.  To your question, it might surprise you to know that my knowledge of IFA is very recent and it came about as the outcome of a discussion in another post with Pastor AIO.  I was setting up some programming for report charts in ODBC and the sequencing of the numbers totalled 256. I knew that 256 is a principal number in IFA.  Also, in design of experiments, the standard matrix for doing failure test is 256 - an array of 16x8.  My interest grew in the connection between maths, number array, sequencing, base 2 numbers and so I studied the symetrical and chonological order of the odus and it was evident that a connection existed.  To be sure, I came here and asked if there was a connection between IFA and computing.  Pastor challenged me to look it up.  What you see on this forum are some of my findings.  

Wow! I didn't realize that I was that instrumental in your interest in Ifa. I can't even remember the thread where our conversations started.

The study of Ifa has taught me so much though and I'm very glad for it. Especially as regards the ways our ancestors thought and things that happened in Yoruba history.

Krayola:

hmm,  this might be a long post because u're the 1st person thats ever been interested in what i'm studying so i'm going to talk your head off,  . Most of my Nigerian relatives are very dismissive and think I'm just trying to avoid the "hard" work of the science and business programs.

I'm at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada.

The courses that are absolutely required are

any 2 of the following 3 courses

Religions of the East: 1st year course which is basically an intro to the Eastern traditions,  hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Chinese religion, Confucianism, Sikhism. Its just like a crash course.

Religions of the West: Also a first year course that is an intro to the Western traditions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. (I didn't take this course because I had already taken the full 2nd year course on Judaism and quite a few on Christianity, I'm taking full courses on Islam and Buddhism next semester)

The Study of religion: basically we look at a bunch of methodological and theoretical approaches to studying religion. It is like an intro into stepping out of our comfort zones and looking at religion "objectively" and critically.

Then we have to take full courses on at least 3 of the major traditions. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.

1st year, I took a course on the Bible where we basically went thru the Bible from A-Z. Also took an Intro. to theology course
2nd year,  I took a full course on Christian history last semester (I was blessed to have an amazing professor that made the stuff so much fun) and it was a big eye opener for me. The Europeans destroyed so much in the name of "God', especially in Latin America.
I took a 2nd year course on Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah),  Very fascinating stuff. Reading some of the posts on this thread about Ifa religion actually reminded me about some stuff from that course.

I took a 3rd year course on Anabaptist history and theology (The Radical Reformation),  I learned sooo much from this,  and it gave me a better understanding about how all this apocalyptic, prophetic and "highway robbery" Christianity came into existence.

Also some courses on spirituality and the psychology of religion,  we study Jung,  Erik Erikson,James Fowler etc.

haha,  ok,  i'll post you a link to my school's list and descriptions of the Rel. stud courses so you can see all the courses available. I'll also post a link so you see what courses are required to get a degree,  that way you can see what body of "knowledge" a graduating student might have acquired, which, i think, is what you are interested in.

Course list (click on the links for descriptions): http://religiousstudies.uwaterloo.ca/courses.html
Course requirements: http://www.religiousstudies.uwaterloo.ca/undergrad.html


Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.  

What a fascinating course!  Really, your family that don't appreciate what you are doing don't know what they are missing.  Did you study the Eastern religion course.  I find Shintoism very fascinating.  It is so similar to the Orisha traditions.  It is probably the closest (along with ancient greek religion) in all the world's religions to Orisha and other african religions.
Did you have a look into the I Ching while studying Chinese religious philosophies?  That's one heck of a book. 

I'm surprised, though, that in studying western religions no mention is made of Zoroastrianism.  I thought that was considered the foundation of most of the West's religions.
I also find the Kabbalah fascinating.  Including the entire re-emergence of neo platonism at the dawn of the Renaissance and the end of the middle ages.  The cosmology of the Sepher Sephiroth is interesting and the way they interpret texts reminds me a lot of Ifa too.  It also reminds me a bit of the deconstructionist and post modernists in 20th century philosophy. 

I don't know much about the Anabaptists but it sounds very interesting and I would like to delve into them a bit. I've read about the Wars of Religion in France and the Huguenot revolts. That must have preceded the rise of the Anabaptists by a few decades. That stuff is fascinating not just on the level of theological debates but also on the political level. The interplay of politics and religion in history is so intricate it is mind boggling. And every historian gets a different take on what happened and what the forces that brought things about were. In my opinion it all started when the Church and State fell out in the Holy Roman Empire. Then the political landscape was split into the Ghibellines and the Guelfs. The effects of all that are still being felt till today. That is the reason why Italy was lots of little city states for so long and arguably the reason for the rise of the Bourgeoisie and the capitalist system that we have today across most of the globe.

Carl Gustav Jung is another kettle of fish entirely.  Did you do any study of Alchemy through studying Jung? 

Man, I'm drooling here just thinking of all the good stuff that you are studying.  Keep it up.

Pastor AIO:



Man, I'm drooling here just thinking of all the good stuff that you are studying.  Keep it up.

Same here i really wish i had the opportunity to study and understand the world's major religions and their history. The differences and the similarities. I am also curious as to why God did not reveal himself to mankind the same way thus leading to one universal religion and understanding of the nature of God.

Pastor AIO:

  Did you study the Eastern religion course.  I find Shintoism very fascinating.  It is so similar to the Orisha traditions.  It is probably the closest (along with ancient greek religion) in all the world's religions to Orisha and other african religions.

Yes I did. okay,  i'm going to take some excerpts from my textbook that i think describe the essence of shinto, and i would appreciate if you could edit it as needed if it can be applied to describe african traditional religion. I'm just trying to arrive at some kind of articulation of what our traditional religion is about. I will replace "shinto" with "ATR" (African Traditional Religion), and "Japan" with "Africa" and "Buddhism" with "Christianity',  and leave the japanese dieties' names intact so you can edit as applies, and if you feel it is a pointless exercise because they are not that similar, just let me know. so you can just remove what does not apply and edit what does in whatever way you think fits. thank you. 

According to current scholarship, ATR is not a single self-conscious religious tradition but rather an overarching label applied to ways of honoring the spirits in nature that have evolved since ancient times in Africa. These ways have at times been combined with imperial myths supporting the worldly rulers.

The spiritual heart of ATR has no founder, no orthodox canon or sacred literature, and no explicit code of ethical requirements. It is so deep-seated and ancient that the symbolic meanings of many of it's elaborate rituals have been forgotten by those who practice them. It seems to have begun as the local religion of agricultural communities and had no name until christianity was imported.

The people lived so harmoniously with their environment that they had no separate word for "nature" until they started importing western ideas. Living close to nature, the people experienced life as a continual process of change and renewal. they organized their lives around the turn of the seasons, honorinng the role of the sun, moon , and lightning in their rice farming.

Surrounded by nature's beauty and power, the African people found the divine all around them. in ATR, the sacred is both immanent and transcendent. in African mythology, the divine originated as one essence. "In primeval ages, before the earth was formed, amorphous matter floated freely about like oil upon water. In time there arose in it;s midst a thing like a sprouting reedshoot, and from this a deity came forth of it's own"

The deity gave birth to many Kami (i'm guessing this can mean orishas), or spirits, two of which- The Amatsu Kami- were told to organize the material world. Standing on the floating bridge of Heaven, they stirred the ocean into a jeweled spear. When they pulled it out of the water, it dripped brine back into the ocean, where it coagulated into islands, with mountains, rivers, plants, and trees (interpreted either as Africa or the entire world). To rule this earthly Kingdom they created the Kami Amaterasu, Goddess of the Sun. etc etc,  it goes on and on but i don't want to bore u with that, lol

Although the word kami is usually translated as god or spirit, it refers to a single essence manifesting in many places. Rather than invoking an image, like the Christian/Hindu dieties, kami refers to a quality. it means "that which evokes wonder and awe in us". The kami harmonize heaven and earth and also guide the solar system and the cosmos.

In the ATR there is no concept of sin. the world is beautiful and full of helpful spirits. Sexuality per se is not sinful; the world was created by mating dieties, and people have traditionally bathed together in Africa. However there is a great problem of ritual impurity that may offend the kani and bring about calamities such as war, drought and famine.

The quality of impurity or misfortune is called tsumi. It can arise through defilement of corpses or menstruation, by unkind interaction between humans, between humans and the environment, or through natural catastrophies. In contrast to repentance required by religions that emphasize sin, tsumi requires purification. Followers of the way of the Kami have various ways of removing tsumi."

OK I think thats short enough,  haha. hope you didn't fall asleep half way through

Pastor AIO:

Did you have a look into the I Ching while studying Chinese religious philosophies?  That's one heck of a book. 

It was mentioned in class, and in the textbook. Like i said the course i took on eastern traditions was an intro to ALL the eastern traditions,  so we didn't go into details such as reading the individual sacred texts. There are other more advanced courses where students can pick a specific religion, or even branch of a religion, and then go into more detailed study. I decided to just focus on Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism. I'm taking a lot of courses on Christianity though because i'm trying to get to the root of all this madness we see going on in the name of "Jesus" today.

But on that note, I notice that when i read excerpts from other sacred texts (not the bible/ Quran), i feel like i learned some deeper meaning about the universe.  there is a feeling of a sort of "enlightenment",  because the contents, however elaborate, have some form of underlying "intellectual" honesty i.e. the stuff seems to make sense. Outside of the mythology, the explanations given about the universe/cosmos, our existence, and interconnectedness seem to register with me on both a spiritual and intellectual level. When I read the Bible i don't get that feeling. The closest i have come to that was reading certain parts of the Gospel of Thomas (contains just quotes of Jesus' sayings without any MADE UP stories like the other canonized gospels),  but even that wasn't quite the same. It just seems so based on myth and fiction that it is hard to get to what is at heart of it,  which is a very simple message of love aimed at making the world a better place for all of humanity (The "son of man" reaching the "promised land"  really translates into humanity reaching their potential on earth through love). That has been polluted by centuries of political manipulation. The teachings of Jesus are so simple and wise when removed from all the fiction and myth that has been added to it. It is a shame, really.

Pastor AIO:

I'm surprised, though, that in studying western religions no mention is made of Zoroastrianism.  I thought that was considered the foundation of most of the West's religions.

It has come up a few times in different classes. It was discussed mostly in the context of whatever religion we were studying though. So when we were studying Christian history, it was discussed as being seen by the catholic church as a heretical religion, The professor did point out that that was not necessarily true,  but after all we were studying Christian history and that was how it was viewed within, or at least, portrayed by the organized christian tradition (of course it was all politically motivated).

Pastor AIO:

I also find the Kabbalah fascinating.  Including the entire re-emergence of neo platonism at the dawn of the Renaissance and the end of the middle ages.  The cosmology of the Sepher Sephiroth is interesting and the way they interpret texts reminds me a lot of Ifa too.  It also reminds me a bit of the deconstructionist and post modernists in 20th century philosophy. 

Kabbalah is absolutely mind blowing stuff. I mean, by the 2nd week of class I had read almost half the textbook. the stuff was so fascinating I couldn't put the book down. The thing I respect about Judaism is their sincere thirst for knowledge. Jews don't even see it as a religion. To them it is their tradition, and without it they are nothing. WHich is why they hold on to it so dearly. they debate, they philosophize, and they update their doctrine to reflect new understanding. they don't assume to KNOW everything.

Christianity as it exists today is a very close minded religion and does not foster growth in my opinion. It assumes to not just have the TRUTH, but to have a monopoly on it. No other religion is quite as rigid and "arrogant", bar to some extent, Islam. And it is even arguable that this was in response to christian aggression. Because before the first crusade the Islamic empire promoted religious diversity and even inter-religious debate. they were very open minded and were the catalysts for most of what we call western civilization. Meanwhile the Christian empire were living the dark ages due to their stupidity. they abandoned all their own rich Greek and roman philosophies and were ONLY interested in their Bible and expanding their power. while the Muslims embraced these foreign cultures and were advancing at a rapid rate.

Pastor AIO:

I don't know much about the Anabaptists but it sounds very interesting and I would like to delve into them a bit.  I've read about the Wars of Religion in France and the Huguenot revolts.  That must have preceded the rise of the Anabaptists by a few decades.  That stuff is fascinating not just on the level of theological debates but also on the political level.  The interplay of politics and religion in history is so intricate it is mind boggling.  And every historian gets a different take on what happened and what the forces that brought things about were.  In my opinion it all started when the Church and State fell out  in the Holy Roman Empire.  Then the political landscape was split into the Ghibellines and the Guelfs.  The effects of all that are still being felt till today.  That is the reason why Italy was lots of little city states for so long and arguably the reason for the rise of the Bourgeoisie and the capitalist system that we have today across most of the globe.

Anabaptism is a bi-product of the reformation. I want to explain this because it is so vital in understanding all the nonsense that is happening in Nigeria today but it is goin to take a while as i want to give a very detailed explanation so I will do it on the weekend when i have more time. It is very interesting stuff and I'm sure you will be delighted to read about it. And as usual you are right,  it is all about politics, power, and the medieval peasants' struggle for a voice (end times theology, which is what most of christianity in Nigeria is, was started by medieval peasants [mostly illiterate----how the hell does an illiterate create meaning to scripture he can't even read?], with little or no knowledge about the faith, creating their own understanding based on the socio-economic/political situation they found themselves).  It is the beginning of modern apocalypticism and all these "end times" nonsense that we hear in churches all over the place. When you get to the root of it all you will just open your mouth and cry for the people that have fallen prey to these looting pastors.

Pastor AIO:

Carl Gustav Jung is another kettle of fish entirely.  Did you do any study of Alchemy through studying Jung? 

haha,  no. we didn't go into the crazy stuff. the professor actually warned us thet despite the genius of some of his writings, that he was into some crazy shit and we should be aware of that when studying him. I wrote a paper on his "psychology of religion" and dream analysis last term. His analysis of the unconscious and its role in the individuation process in very interesting.

I love studying religion. Everyday i feel i have a better understanding of the world around me. the whole reward and punishment model of christianity never struck home with me. Most of the other religions emphasize communual obligation,  morality is seen as ones responsibility in promoting the greater good. A sense of communual responsibility is at the centre. The whole quest for heaven turns morality into a self serving concept aimed at bringing about individual salvation but i know the "God" of all humanity is only concerned with all of humanity. So any form of "salvation" is going to be a collective thing in my opinion.

KunleOshob:

Same here i really wish i had the opportunity to study and understand the world's major religions and their history. The differences and the similarities. I am also curious as to why God did not reveal himself to mankind the same way thus leading to one universal religion and understanding of the nature of God.

A lot of the stuff is actually stuff that can be learned independently. But the problem with studying religion is that there is a lot of propaganda out there. A lot of "religious books" out there are hardly ever objective, and are usually either for or against a position. The internet is even worse. The advantage of studying it at a recognized university that has a reputation to protect is that you get to use books that are unbiased (where the author has a slight bias we are informed and keep it in mind when studying it, they ALWAYS point out when there is disagreement on a subject, and all sides are shown) and you are only presented with facts. There is also no reductionist attitude. The importance of religion to the faithful is recognized. so basically this is what they tell us

"This is what we know for sure based on research",

"To a catholic, the host contains the body of Christ",

"Most of the books of the Bible were not written by the people the Bible says wrote them, "

etc etc,   just trying to use simple examples to illustrate what it is like.

as you can see, there are no inferences, just information that can be backed up by evidence . If they don't know, they don't know. If there is no evidence they let us know. But what we are taught is only facts. "this is what hindus believe" "this is what they do" , no one talks about whether they are true or false. But if evidence exists to prove or disprove any of the stuff, it is presented without any judgments. The student is left to make up his/her mind.

I can recommend the books i have used if you are really interested. What I even do is i go to the school library and get the textbooks for courses i'm curious about but not interested in formally taking. I just read the books on my own without having to write tests and exams and get the knowledge for free.

Pastor AIO:

Thanks AnnyPlenty.

Children born under this odu stand out from the crowd.  They are very distinctive people full of originality.  The child will be the source of the querents solutions to life's problems.

Also there is the possibility that the wife might leave or has left the querent and he is advised to go back and appease the wife cos she is his fortune. 
No matter how brilliant and original the child of eji Ogbe is it will end in frustration and failure if he is not circumspect and learns to cooperate with forces around him.  He can't do anything on his own. 

Pastor AIO:

Let us look at the major Odu Ifa one by one and those of us that know anything about Ifa can discuss what we know and those that have any questions can ask questions. 

Starting with Eji Ogbe. 

Eji Ogbe is when you have Ogbe on the right side and Ogbe on the left side too.

This Odu tells how Ori came to be the ruler of all the orisha.

The person for whom this Odu is cast is told not to be a lone ranger but to seek partnership.  The wife of this person will be the source of fortunes.  Never disrespect the wife. 

In this Odu Ifa declares that he saves in couples.  Eji ni mo gbe, mi o gbe enikan (I save couples I don't save individuals). 

Despite a strong sense of destiny the querent has to recognise other forces in order to fulfill the destiny. 

Pastor. Can you please elaborate on the highlighted points. I couldn't help but feel that was talking directly to me.

What does ogbe mean?

Krayola:

Yes I did. okay,  i'm going to take some excerpts from my textbook that i think describe the essence of shinto, and i would appreciate if you could edit it as needed if it can be applied to describe african traditional religion. I'm just trying to arrive at some kind of articulation of what our traditional religion is about. I will replace "shinto" with "ATR" (African Traditional Religion), and "Japan" with "Africa" and "Buddhism" with "Christianity',  and leave the japanese dieties' names intact so you can edit as applies, and if you feel it is a pointless exercise because they are not that similar, just let me know. so you can just remove what does not apply and edit what does in whatever way you think fits. thank you. 
OK I think thats short enough,  haha. hope you didn't fall asleep half way through

I will agree with a lot of what you wrote when ATR is used in place of Shinto with one or two point only that I don't agree with.

I think the most important thing to be aware of in both cases is that the object of worship is the Earth.   ie.  The Features of the land, the landscape.  every square inch of earth is presided over by a spirit, ultimately what we are dealing with is deities of locales or genii loci. 

Local Spirits (genii loci)

The spirits which were believed to inhabit natural features of the landscape, such as springs and caves were the foundation of ancient religious belief. In many parts of Greece they have survived in folk belief into the twenty-first century.

http://www.anagnosis.gr/index.php?la=eng&pageID=116

Imagine a man with a problem one day climbs and mountain and enter a cave there where he experience a great sense of calm and numinousity.  As he sits in this cave he feels that there is a presence there and as he immerses himself in the quietude all of a sudden the solution to his problems occurs to him, it just pops up in his head.  He might conclude that a genius in that place had given him the solution to his problem.  He might begin the practice of returning to that place to recharge his energies and receive inspiration.  Furthermore other people claim to have the same experiences as he has had.  Over time this practice of returning to the cave may get more elaborate and ritualised and before long we have a full blown cult of the deity of the mountain cave.   

In yoruba religion this earth that we tread on is considered a deity.  Ebora Ile is her name. Absolutely every feature of the land is one deity or the other, an aspect of Earth. The principle orisha of Ibadan is a mountain that overlooks Ibadan.  This is the orisha Oke Ibadan.  The river Niger is the Orisha Oya.  The river Oshun in Osun state is the goddess Oshun.  the river Oogun in Ogun state is the orisha Yemoja Oogun.  The Lagoon in Lagos is called Olosa.  The Ocean is called Olokun.  Remember the story about how Ori threw all the orisha down to earth.  Ori da Ogun si Ire.  Ori created/threw Ogun to Ire.  Ire Ekiti is the center of the Ogun cult.  The Town of Koso is the center of the Shango cult.  All these deity have their geographical location.  These are certain places where their presence is said to reside.
This is why on occasion is is not enough to make an ebo (food offering) in any ol' shrine of a deity but rather the devotee is instructed to go and make ebo in a very particular shrine in a very particular place.  This is also tied in with the idea of pilgrimage. 

So to look at your re-edition of the text on shinto.

According to current scholarship, ATR is not a single self-conscious religious tradition but rather an overarching label applied to ways of honoring the spirits in nature that have evolved since ancient times in Africa. These ways have at times been combined with imperial myths supporting the worldly rulers.

This is accurate.  In fact there is not organised single structure.  Shango cult is a religion all to itself with it's own codes etc.  Obatala is a cult all to itself, Oshun is a cult all to itself.


The spiritual heart of ATR has no founder, no orthodox canon or sacred literature, and no explicit code of ethical requirements. It is so deep-seated and ancient that the symbolic meanings of many of it's elaborate rituals have been forgotten by those who practice them. It seems to have begun as the local religion of agricultural communities and had no name until christianity was imported.


This is true too, although Ifa adherents sometimes make Orunmila out to be an historical character that taught the religion to the yorubas.  Many of the orisha cults are still very much local religions.  For instance only Ibadan people worship Okebadan.  Even where different areas worship an orisha bearing the same name the practice can often differ considerably.  For instance the worship of Ogun in the eastern part of yorubaland is different from the way he is approached in the western part.

The people lived so harmoniously with their environment that they had no separate word for "nature" until they started importing western ideas. Living close to nature, the people experienced life as a continual process of change and renewal. they organized their lives around the turn of the seasons, honorinng the role of the sun, moon , and lightning in their rice farming.

Surrounded by nature's beauty and power, the African people found the divine all around them. in ATR, the sacred is both immanent and transcendent. in African mythology, the divine originated as one essence. "In primeval ages, before the earth was formed, amorphous matter floated freely about like oil upon water. In time there arose in it;s midst a thing like a sprouting reedshoot, and from this a deity came forth of it's own"

Yes, in yoruba religions the divine is infused into the earth yet at the same time the divine is separate, transcendent.


The deity gave birth to many Kami (i'm guessing this can mean orishas), or spirits, two of which- The Amatsu Kami- were told to organize the material world. Standing on the floating bridge of Heaven, they stirred the ocean into a jeweled spear. When they pulled it out of the water, it dripped brine back into the ocean, where it coagulated into islands, with mountains, rivers, plants, and trees (interpreted either as Africa or the entire world). To rule this earthly Kingdom they created the Kami Amaterasu, Goddess of the Sun. etc etc,  it goes on and on but i don't want to bore u with that, lol

Edumare sent Obatala to give form to the world.  The orisha were then sent to govern over the affairs of the world.



Although the word kami is usually translated as god or spirit, it refers to a single essence manifesting in many places. Rather than invoking an image, like the Christian/Hindu dieties, kami refers to a quality. it means "that which evokes wonder and awe in us". The kami harmonize heaven and earth and also guide the solar system and the cosmos.

Kami could, by dint of an extreme contrivance, be related to Emi, spirit in yoruba.  What is it about an Orisha that characterises it.  This is called Ase (authority).  Where the Ase of the deity is to be found that is where the deity is.  Whether it is in certain herbs or in a location or in a substance.  Ie Ogun is Iron.  The important thing to note is that Ogun is not God  of Iron, or owner of iron but he is Iron itself.  Iron contains that Ase that is identified as Ogun.  There are herbs that have that ase too and there are places that are imbued with that ase and there are chants and music that can invoke that ase. 
But an interesting point you raise is about the iconography of the deities.  Ogun is a certain quality but he also has a distinct iconography with his weapons and his hammer banging away in his workshop.  So does Shango with his double head ose, and Obatala with his opa osoro (walking stick).  These icons spring up unbidden from the unconscious mind ( I believe)  and they can be found all over the world in different religions. 

In the ATR there is no concept of sin. the world is beautiful and full of helpful spirits. Sexuality per se is not sinful; the world was created by mating dieties, and people have traditionally bathed together in Africa. However there is a great problem of ritual impurity that may offend the kani and bring about calamities such as war, drought and famine.


The quality of impurity or misfortune is called tsumi. It can arise through defilement of corpses or menstruation, by unkind interaction between humans, between humans and the environment, or through natural catastrophies. In contrast to repentance required by religions that emphasize sin, tsumi requires purification. Followers of the way of the Kami have various ways of removing tsumi."


I think the point is a bit over laboured here.  It all depends on what one means by sin.  If sin is an impurity or an act that makes one impure so that one cannot commune with the deity then what difference is that from the Tsumi.  In yoruba religion there is what is called eewo.  Often translated as taboo.  Every orisha has it's eewo and a devotee can become impure by no observing the taboo.

There is so much more to write about but so little time.  I'll have to come back to this later.

Krayola:


haha,  no. we didn't go into the crazy stuff. the professor actually warned us thet despite the genius of some of his writings, that he was into some crazy shit and we should be aware of that when studying him. I wrote a paper on his "psychology of religion" and dream analysis last term. His analysis of the unconscious and its role in the individuation process in very interesting.

I love studying religion. Everyday i feel i have a better understanding of the world around me. the whole reward and punishment model of christianity never struck home with me. Most of the other religions emphasize communual obligation,  morality is seen as ones responsibility in promoting the greater good. A sense of communual responsibility is at the centre. The whole quest for heaven turns morality into a self serving concept aimed at bringing about individual salvation but i know the "God" of all humanity is only concerned with all of humanity. So any form of "salvation" is going to be a collective thing in my opinion.

That Crazy stuff is not all that crazy. It is worth having a look at.

[center]Here beginneth the Book of the
Rosary of the Philosophers
most diligently compiled
and brought into one volume.[/center]

They who desire to have the most true knowledge of the greater science of the philosophical Art, let them diligently peruse this little book and often times read it over and they shall obtain their prosperous and wished desire. Listen to these things, you children of the Ancient Philosophers, I will speak in the loudest and highest voice I can, for I come unto you to open and declare [b]the principal state of human things [/b]and the most secret treasure of all the secrets of the whole world.

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/rosary1.html

1) True, without falsehood, certain, most certain.
2) What is above is like what is below, and what is below is like that which is above. To make the miracle of the one thing.
3) And as all things were made from contemplation of one, so all things were born from one adaptation.
4) Its father is the Sun, its mother is the Moon.
5) The wind carried it in its womb, the earth breast fed it.
6) It is the father of all ‘works of wonder' (Telesmi) in the world.
6a) Its power is complete (integra).
7) If cast to (turned towards- versa fuerit) earth,
7a) it will separate earth from fire, the subtile from the gross.
With great capacity it ascends from earth to heaven. Again it descends to earth, and takes back the power of the above and the below.
9) Thus you will receive the glory of the distinctiveness of the world. All obscurity will flee from you.
10) This is the whole most strong strength of all strength, for it overcomes all subtle things, and penetrates all solid things.
11a) Thus was the world created.
12) From this comes marvelous adaptions of which this is the proceedure.
13) Therefore I am called Hermes, because I have three parts of the wisdom of the whole world.
14) And complete is what I had to say about the work of the Sun

Impressive display of comprehension of what has been taught and read by you student contributors to this thread (particularly this page). But the search for truth, which some of you are subconsciously/innately doing, goes beyond these studies of world religion; the path is trechearous, ladden with false judgements, illusions, confusions and the end result can be frustration which has led many to foolishly (no apology for the word) deny that there is a Creator (GOD). A lot travellers end up introducing ideologies and interpretations that were never  part of the original belief/practice and thereby delude themselves.

For the ifa adherents in the house, please educate me:

1) What is the position of ifa on the hereafter?

2) What does ifa say about the here after for evil doers (thieves & robbers, murderers, etc, etc)?

3) Does ifa consider "sexual promiscuity" as evil?

4) Who came first between Orunmila and the other orisas of the Yoruba race?,

@ PastorAIO,
Tell me, pls, of the Ela that begat the Oluorogbo (or may be the other way round)

The I ask: How does ifa react to the human sacrifice to oros that is practiced in Yoruba land? After all there is no oro festival that is held in Yoruba land that does not involve ifa and ifa priests.

Mowire:

Impressive display of comprehension of what has been taught and read by you student contributors to this thread (particularly this page). But the search for truth, which some of you are subconsciously/innately doing, goes beyond these studies of world religion; the path is trechearous, ladden with false judgements, illusions, confusions and the end result can be frustration which has led many to foolishly (no apology for the word) deny that there is a Creator (GOD). A lot travellers end up introducing ideologies and interpretations that were never  part of the original belief/practice and thereby delude themselves.

For the ifa adherents in the house, please educate me:

1) What is the position of ifa on the hereafter?

2) What does ifa say about the here after for evil doers (thieves & robbers, murderers, etc, etc)?

3) Does ifa consider "sexual promiscuity" as evil?

4) Who came first between Orunmila and the other orisas of the Yoruba race?,

@ PastorAIO,
Tell me, pls, of the Ela that begat the Oluorogbo (or may be the other way round)

The I ask: How does ifa react to the human sacrifice to oros that is practiced in Yoruba land? After all there is no oro festival that is held in Yoruba land that does not involve ifa and ifa priests.

Listen Mr. Man, we're all sharing and discussing here. If you have something to say please say it rather than asking irrelevant questions and posturing like you have some deep knowledge that everyone else is ignorant of. If I recall this was your last post:

Pastor,

Can't give much of response now. Burnt enough gas running gen here.

However, when you start to study all of the story you should not be suprised to see a lot of manipulations geared towards making things acceptable.

the Oluorogbo in question, for example, is not the Moremi's son version. Really there are different versions to all the Yoruba orisas origin.

Tomorrow may be.

I told you I don't know who Oluorogbo is, you said you would tell me tomorrow. The tomorrow has come and all you've done is ask more nonsense questions. What point are you trying to make? Tell us and relieve us of the suspense.

Although I fear that the truth might be that you don't know much about anything so you are trying to scare people from investigating matters by talk of treacherous paths and what not.

Whatever Ifa's position is on the hereafter or on sexual promiscuity I'm sure that it has little if not nothing to do with the general trend of this thread.

Talking to most of the atheist on this forum I am of the impression that their backgrounds are Christian and Islamic so I need you to demonstrate how studying Ifa leads to atheism.

If anyone has introduced ideologies and interpretations that are not part of the original Ifa why don't you just inform us so that we all know better.

I'm not yet going to dismiss you as an charlatan. I'll wait for your next post and see if that has any actual substance. Then I'll decide just what I think of you.

Pastor,

I find your explanations very nourishing and at the same time very provoking to my mind. Im a truth seeker. On one hand your explanations resonate a truth in my soul and on the other hand it challenges me to probe further into the truth of creation and purpose. Thank you very much!

As a side note and not to digress from main topic, I suspect you are either aquarius yourself, with a major influence from pisces, or you are a pisces with a major influence from aquarius. These two combinations together create a better than average ability for seeking and understanding the secret codes of cosmic energies.


Krayola,

I commend you for taking the steps and going the way of your academic interests than to succumb to parental pressure. Studying and understanding religions will open a gateway through which you can best understand humanity. An ideal path for truth and fulfillment. I keep three Holy scriptures on my book shelf- Quran, Bible and Torah - and together they provide lead for what I need to do in times of trouble. It is amazing that they are consistent in the meanings that they offer.

In your comparison of belief systems you said Kabbalah is closely related to Ifa. I never studied Kabbalah but read books on it. I have also read a number of books on Sufism. If you thought Kabbalah is close to Ifa, wait till you read Sufism! At its elementary stage, the rituals of Islam, especially during Hajj pilgrimage has been compared to the initiation rituals of Ifa. In one instance, Islam, you have a completion stage - a state of perfection of deeds - and in the other, Ifa initiation, you have the entry into a state of enlightenement - a state of purification. Maybe you or Pastor can comment on this.

Mowire:

But the search for truth, which some of you are subconsciously/innately doing, goes beyond these studies of world religion; the path is trechearous, ladden with false judgements, illusions, confusions and the end result can be frustration which has led many to foolishly (no apology for the word) deny that there is a Creator (GOD). A lot travellers end up introducing ideologies and interpretations that were never  part of the original belief/practice and thereby delude themselves.

I understand what you mean.

I just try to follow my curiosity. I'm not really looking for TRUTH as such, I just try to gather wisdom from everywhere. The stories and myths, I appreciate on another level but only in understanding what our ancestors, domestic and foreign, thought about their world before science. I don't believe that western (Jewish, Roman, Greek etc) thought is superior to ours. This is why I'm trying to learn about wisdom that our ancestors had been gathering and passing down, but has been lost because of colonialism. I just try to study stuff and draw whatever I think can be beneficial to me from it. I don't BELIEVE stuff just because it sounds "deep" or "speaks to me",  but i do investigate it, and see what I can learn from it. I'm not sure if that answers some of the concerns you might have.  Are you religious?  If so what religion, and is that the religion you were born into?  yeah, they are kinda personal questions,  but just thought i'd throw them out there. I was born and raised in a Christian household.

@ pastor,  I'll read that stuff you posted on alchemy. Its pretty long so I'll have to wait till later tonight. I have friends over and I have to be a good host.

Krayola:


@ pastor,  I'll read that stuff you posted on alchemy. Its pretty long so I'll have to wait till later tonight. I have friends over and I have to be a good host.

Take your time. It might take you months to get your head around it.

Mowire:

For the uniformed mind who might have been reading about all this ifa stuff, it is an interesting discovery that the religion is so "advanced".

But to all you ifa students, initiates, and prosilytes (ope the spelling is right), please let us know the following:
1) If obatala is the creator, then who is Olodumare?

Olodumare is the MOST HIGH and SUPREME BEING and CREATOR of everything. Obatala is one of OLODUMARE's messengers delegated with moulding babies.

2) Who and what is Ela?

Ela is another spiritual name for Orunmila.The name embodies the ability of Orunmila to make divinations. He is either called Ela, Bara Agbonniregun or Orunmila Bara Agbonniregun.

3) Who is Oluorogbo?

Oluorogbo is one of the descendants of oranmiyan.

4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus.

I dont understand your question.

5) If worship of sango , for example, truely predates christianity and islam, why then does the oriki of sango contain verses that indicate that he was versed in Islamic prayers and the quran? Remember that most of the Yoruba orisas are of similar age.

please, make reference to that oriki for relevant respone.

6) What is the place of human sacrifice, still being practised in Yoruba land for their oros (deities), in your ifa morality?

Oro is totally different from IFA. Ifa is the totally of the message revealed through Orunmila to bring solutions to the problems of mankind. so, dont commingle oro with IFA.


No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I agree that some peolple may be fighting a cultural battle but there are large knowledge numbers whose championing is for the establishment of the truth in IFA. Let me also make it known to you the age of most of the perpetrators of world religions today are recent compared to the age of the religion they are perpetrating. So , this is not common to Ifa alone.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. _{I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA}

No verbal assaults, misconceptions are meant to be corrected.

Mowire:

For the uniformed mind who might have been reading about all this ifa stuff, it is an interesting discovery that the religion is so "advanced".

But to all you ifa students, initiates, and prosilytes (ope the spelling is right), please let us know the following:
1) If obatala is the creator, then who is Olodumare?

2) Who and what is Ela?

3) Who is Oluorogbo?

4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus

5) If worship of sango , for example, truely predates christianity and islam, why then does the oriki of sango contain verses that indicate that he was versed in Islamic prayers and the quran? Remember that most of the Yoruba orisas are of similar age.

6) What is the place of human sacrifice, still being practised in Yoruba land for their oros (deities), in your ifa morality?

No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. _{I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA}

1 Olodumare is the MOST HIGH and SUPREME BEING and CREATOR of everything. Obatala is one of OLODUMARE's messengers delegated with moulding babies.

2. Ela is another spiritual name for Orunmila.The name embodies the ability of Orunmila to make divinations. He is either called Ela, Bara Agbonniregun or Orunmila Bara Agbonniregun.

3. Oluorogbo was one of the descendants of oranmiyan.

4. I dont understand your question.Make it more understandable.

5. please, make reference to that oriki for relevant respone.

6. Oro is totally different from IFA. Ifa is the totally of the message revealed through Orunmila to bring solutions to the problems of mankind. so, dont commingle oro with IFA. Orunmila never taught human sacrifice in any of his revealatios.


7. No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I agree that some peolple may be fighting a cultural battle but there are large knowledge numbers whose championing is for the establishment of the truth in IFA. Let me also make it known to you the age of most of the perpetrators of world religions today are recent compared to the age of the religion they are perpetrating. So , this is not common to Ifa alone.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA

@Pastor,
Funny to see that you were upset with the questions. But someone just made an attempt to answer the same questions.

If you felt any subconscious chill (scare) inside you as a result of the manner of my posts so far thatts too bad. To scare anyone was (and is) not an intent. Rather asking one like you, who seem to posit to know much as to try and elighten others, questions as have done so far (and I will still ask more so long as this thread runs) should just ordinarily have "nugged" you a little to go a step further in your "research/study". As you can see, those questions have answers. You see even the best of teachers even deploy similar technique so that their students are able to make well informed decisions at the end of the day: he will be convinced why he should continue on the same path as his master or take a different path.

And I did not say that the study of ifa can lead to anyone becoming an atheist.

I am no adept but I know I have read some of the materials you are now reading and come into some of the knowledge you now have much earlier than you. Your answers could have refreshed my memory and definitely given more information to those who are interested in following your thinking/thought.

@annyplenty,
4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus.

I dont understand your question.

The above is your response to one of the questions asked. Are you aware that the is circle (I don't want to call them council) of Yoruba, cultural, thinkers who have commisioned a group to invetigate the correlation between the story of Jesus and Ela/Oluorogbo phenomenon; to see if the traditions refer to the same person or equivalent personalities. According to some respected Yoruba literature the Oluorogbo/Ela story is one yet to be fully understood (the traditions do not seem to agree on the story of Ela being the same as Orunmila)

As for the verse of sango oriki that indicated that he practiced part of the Islamic "ways", I cannot begin to dig that up for you. Let any of the well versed adherents recite the oriki to you and you will here it said (or an adept ifa priest can even recite the sango orikis for you). There is even a point where he is refered to as as of having Nupe linkage.

@Krayola,
Yes I am religious. As to what religion, I'm sorry I will rather keep that out for now on this thread. I was born of a methodist mother to a non particularly religious traditional blacksmith whose own father was a well revered ifa priest in his area of influence of up to 4/5 communities in his own time. I was never involved in the worship of ifa because my father did not put anyone of his children in the know of what he knew and did not practice (he in fact forbade anyone of us from ever being initiated into such, even as adults), but as will be expected of any traditional blacksmith in Yoruba land, he did his own bit of ogun worship. And I have travelled the path of "truth seeking" in my own little way to draw my own conclusions.

Mowire:

@Pastor,
Funny to see that you were upset with the questions. But someone just made an attempt to answer the same questions.

I was not upset by the questions, I was upset by your posturing and grand standing. That someone else made an attempt to answer the question just says that the person has a higher tolerance threshold for idiocy. I did answer your questions to the best of my ability and instead of responding to my answers you asked more questions leading me to understand that you know next to nothing.

I won't mince my words but I'll tell you straight. I don't like what I know of you. You are nothing new but you fit into a certain type of personality that I'm well acquainted with. You belong to that common type that gets puffed up with half baked knowledge.

Mowire:

@Pastor,

If you felt any subconscious chill (scare) inside you as a result of the manner of my posts so far thatts too bad. To scare anyone was (and is) not an intent. Rather asking one like you, who seem to posit to know much as to try and elighten others, questions as have done so far (and I will still ask more so long as this thread runs) should just ordinarily have "nugged" you a little to go a step further in your "research/study". As you can see, those questions have answers. You see even the best of teachers even deploy similar technique so that their students are able to make well informed decisions at the end of the day: he will be convinced why he should continue on the same path as his master or take a different path.

No sir, you have scared no one. Not consciously or subsconsciously. However you are attempting to put us off studying this subject. And you're trying every underhand trick. Where did I say that I 'know much as to try and elighten others'. We are discussing here and you, thus far, have contributed nil, or even minus nil. That is a false accusation you made there.

That is a false accusation to be added to the already heinous crime of self aggrandisement. So you are now the 'best of teachers' helping your poor students (ie me) to make informed decisions. When I need a 'master' you can be assured that I will not come to the likes of you. I think you're an idiot. (just my opinion)

Mowire:


And I did not say that the study of ifa can lead to anyone becoming an atheist.

Mowire:
the path is trechearous, ladden with false judgements, illusions, confusions and the end result can be frustration which has led many to foolishly (no apology for the word) deny that there is a Creator (GOD).

Studying world religions will lead you to atheism, you say. Further more the path is treacherous and laden with all kinds of scary stuff so if you know what is good for you don't study or research, be afraid and run from investigating the truth. Is this what you're selling? Well, I will oppose you every inch of the way. I see you as the enemy, an enemy of truth, an enemy of investigation into truth, the enemy of enlightenment. You belong to darkness.

Mowire:


I am no adept but I know I have read some of the materials you are now reading and come into some of the knowledge you now have much earlier than you. Your answers could have refreshed my memory and definitely given more information to those who are interested in following your thinking/thought.

. . . and what is that quality that most marks out a child of darkness? Yes, arrogance, empty baseless arrogance. How do you know how many years I've been researching world religion that you can state that you've known about it much earlier than me?
This Forum is called Nairaland for christ's sake. What was going through your 2 brain cells when you stated that you're a 'Nigerian and a Yoruba'. Do you really think that you're the only Nigerian here, or the only yoruba? Please I would like you to consider that once again the name of this Website. It is called NAIRAland. It has that name for a reason.

When you said you were looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks, what did you mean? Obviously you are here to start a fight. (and I believe you've got one). You are not here to share anything with anyone but to bring all the negative energy that is afflicting you offline onto this forum to give vent. I would tell you to get lost but it seems you're lost enough as it is already. In any case COMMOT FOR ROAD.

KunleOshob:

Same here i really wish i had the opportunity to study and understand the world's major religions and their history. The differences and the similarities. I am also curious as to why God did not reveal himself to mankind the same way thus leading to one universal religion and understanding of the nature of God.

Perhaps it's because any concept of God that any religion or culture might attempt to articulate is limited by the perspective of that culture or religion. This is true even on the level of individuals. So even if it is the same God their understanding will still be different.

There is a Yoruba story that illustrates this. Once upon a time there were 2 friends that were inseparable. Everyone said that their friendship could never end and there were always in agreement on everything. Esu heard about them and felt affronted. So he decided to put their friendship to the test. These two friends had their farms located adjacent to each other.
So one day Esu put on his red and black hat. The hat was red on one side and black on the other. Then singing a tuneful melody he went for a walk down a path that divided the two friends farms.

Later that evening the friends were chilling together and one of them mentioned the strange fellow that walked through singing an enchanting song and wearing a black cap. The other friend said yeah he saw him but he was wearing a red cap. That little difference in their accounts became a sticking point and then it blew up until they were exchanging fisticuffs. At last Esu turned up and stopped the fight and explained that it was him but the hat was red on one side and black on the other. That was how Esu demonstrated that there is no friendship that he cannot break up.

Pastor AIO:

I was not upset by the questions, I was upset by your posturing and grand standing. That someone else made an attempt to answer the question just says that the person has a higher tolerance threshold for idiocy. I did answer your questions to the best of my ability and instead of responding to my answers you asked more questions leading me to understand that you know next to nothing.

I won't mince my words but I'll tell you straight. I don't like what I know of you. You are nothing new but you fit into a certain type of personality that I'm well acquainted with. You belong to that common type that gets puffed up with half baked knowledge.


No sir, you have scared no one. Not consciously or subsconsciously. However you are attempting to put us off studying this subject. And you're trying every underhand trick. Where did I say that I 'know much as to try and elighten others'. We are discussing here and you, thus far, have contributed nil, or even minus nil. That is a false accusation you made there.

That is a false accusation to be added to the already heinous crime of self aggrandisement. So you are now the 'best of teachers' helping your poor students (ie me) to make informed decisions. When I need a 'master' you can be assured that I will not come to the likes of you. I think you're an idiot. (just my opinion)

Studying world religions will lead you to atheism, you say. Further more the path is treacherous and laden with all kinds of scary stuff so if you know what is good for you don't study or research, be afraid and run from investigating the truth. Is this what you're selling? Well, I will oppose you every inch of the way. I see you as the enemy, an enemy of truth, an enemy of investigation into truth, the enemy of enlightenment. You belong to darkness.

. . . and what is that quality that most marks out a child of darkness? Yes, arrogance, empty baseless arrogance. How do you know how many years I've been researching world religion that you can state that you've known about it much earlier than me?
This Forum is called Nairaland for christ's sake. What was going through your 2 brain cells when you stated that you're a 'Nigerian and a Yoruba'. Do you really think that you're the only Nigerian here, or the only yoruba? Please I would like you to consider that once again the name of this Website. It is called NAIRAland. It has that name for a reason.

When you said you were looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks, what did you mean? Obviously you are here to start a fight. (and I believe you've got one). You are not here to share anything with anyone but to bring all the negative energy that is afflicting you offline onto this forum to give vent. I would tell you to get lost but it seems you're lost enough as it is already. In any case COMMOT FOR ROAD.

O boy pastor wire don touch o

Pastor AIO:

Perhaps it's because any concept of God that any religion or culture might attempt to articulate is limited by the perspective of that culture or religion. This is true even on the level of individuals. So even if it is the same God their understanding will still be different.

There is a Yoruba story that illustrates this. Once upon a time there were 2 friends that were inseparable. Everyone said that their friendship could never end and there were always in agreement on everything. Esu heard about them and felt affronted. So he decided to put their friendship to the test. These two friends had their farms located adjacent to each other.
So one day Esu put on his red and black hat. The hat was red on one side and black on the other. Then singing a tuneful melody he went for a walk down a path that divided the two friends farms.

Later that evening the friends were chilling together and one of them mentioned the strange fellow that walked through singing an enchanting song and wearing a black cap. The other friend said yeah he saw him but he was wearing a red cap. That little difference in their accounts became a sticking point and then it blew up until they were exchanging fisticuffs. At last Esu turned up and stopped the fight and explained that it was him but the hat was red on one side and black on the other. That was how Esu demonstrated that there is no friendship that he cannot break up.

This makes a lot of sense

@Pastor AIO,
Quite a wonderful display of rage here! (strong enough to physically ruffle me).
But I wil try not to tow same line as you. And in the same "grand standing" tone, I dare say such outburst as you have done, and feeling behind it, is responsible for harm that some of those you now call (Yoruba) orisa caused in their time. _{GO ASK THE ELDERS THE TRUTH, THE HISTORY.}

Somehow, I feel that you are totally incapable of reasoning out properly on what you read. Well that's what see from the way you have interpreted some of my comments.

Have a great evening.

Mowire:

@Pastor AIO,
Quite a wonderful display of rage here! (strong enough to physically ruffle me).

I wouldn't quite call it rage. More like disgust!

What's really upsetting you? You entered the thread like someone who knows. I did not quote the Eji ogbe for you. You did like someone who knows ifa enough to take on questions. Besides my question was directed at you from the onset.

Here's my first post:

Mowire:

For the uniformed mind who might have been reading about all this ifa stuff, it is an interesting discovery that the religion is so "advanced".

But to all you ifa students, initiates, and prosilytes (ope the spelling is right), please let us know the following:
1) If obatala is the creator, then who is Olodumare?

2) Who and what is Ela?

3) Who is Oluorogbo?

4) How do these two above relate/compare to Jesus

5) If worship of sango , for example, truely predates christianity and islam, why then does the oriki of sango contain verses that indicate that he was versed in Islamic prayers and the quran? Remember that most of the Yoruba orisas are of similar age.

6) What is the place of human sacrifice, still being practised in Yoruba land for their oros (deities), in your ifa morality?

No one should really be in the dark to the fact that all the authors (so called authorities) of the ifa literatures of today are most of the very very recent age who are fighting a purely cultural battle and not necessarily a battle for the TRUTH.

I am looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks. _{I AM A NIGERIAN and YORUBA}

You may go through all your responses and mine fro that point on.
Much of your outburst even indicated that you missed the point of the posts.

For example: "Where in my post did I say that the study of ifa will lead to atheism?" Please go through my posts and quote it. ( Name calling was so convenient for you inpite of your wrong interpretations).

You see, my friend, I was not wrong when I said "the path is trechearous, ladden with false judgements, illusions, confusions and the end result can be frustration which has led many to foolishly (no apology for the word) deny that there is a Creator (GOD)." You are probably my best proof.

I think your judgement is questionable and your ability to correctly reason out what you read undependable. Your conclusions can't but be wrong.

Its going to be a long weekend in Nigeria. Have a nice weekend.

Meanwhile those questions I asked are still waiting for answers!

@Pastor AIO,
The above is for you. (I think you should know that though)

Mowire:

@
_{GO ASK THE ELDERS THE TRUTH, THE HISTORY.}

Have a great evening.

It seems you like making references to some elders as the basis of your posts. who are the elders you always refer us to ask? can you please mention some names. besides that some people you refer us to are elders doesnt not mean they will be an authority on the topic of IFA that we are discussing. the age of methuselah might not have something to do with the wisdom of solomon. I will suggest that if you might want us to take your references so serious, decline from referring us to elders. instead make reference from the words of IFA directly or you quote an history of the religion you might know.

I have answers to all your questions and even some more you have not asked but will like to know the motive behind yor inquisitions before taking you up.