@telly B,

@ricadelide,

I appreciate your outlines. Once again, thanks for adding to my understanding.  

thanks. I gain a lot from reading your insights as well, especially on the threads on Islam and all. I learn so much i just sit back and read on. that's why i decided to 'specialize' on the atheism threads.   cheers.

@KAG,
i linked a webpage to you. you've not said anything about that. I decided to cut and paste it here. Here goes;

Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth:

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!, not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.

And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek, so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)
He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).

Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093
92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ
121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ



Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:

Ancestors:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4.
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18, Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)

4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17, Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)

5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7, Luke 1:32-33.
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)

Birth and Childhood:

7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4-7.
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:26-35.
- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25, Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:14-15.
- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)

12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5, Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Passion:

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9, John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2, Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9, Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8, Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11, Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5, John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18, Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16, Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus), he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12, Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15, John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

CONTINUED,,,,,,,,,

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20, John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12, Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7, Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25, Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15, Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10, Matthew 27:52-53.
- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3, Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven
- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1, Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Ministry:

38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5, John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.
- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah

39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12


Source; http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

I'd be expecting your rebuttal of those prophecies. cheers.

Now, coming to your own posts,,,,,,

Your words: "when he comes again, he will restore things, etc". Ergo, we agree that Jesus didn't fulfill that prophecy (the Christian's spin is he hasn't done it yet, but it amounts to the same thing).

Naah, you wont hear me saying that every prophecy in the scripture has been fulfilled, of course not. Every prophecy has its time frame; some pertaining to the end times, some to the second coming, some to Christ's first coming, some to the millenial reign etc.
Let me paste a verse for you,,,,
1Pet.1:10-12
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

The messiah, especially according to Jewish scribes, should do that on his first and only showing, so in context Jesus hasn't done this. Don't forget, the exercise was to show the mesianic prophecies that haven't been fulfilled by Jesus. sure, you could claim he just hasn't done it yet, but it would still be a moot claim.

If you decide to get all muddled up on this issue that we've tried to explain to you over and over again, then there's little we can do to help.
the word of God is perfect. Another quote;
Acts.3;17-25
And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 “Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 23 ‘And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 “It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’

I didn't say anything about any Christ's salvation work (I can't even be certain where you got that from). The prophecy was: The whole world will worship the One God of Israel" as in, the world will exalt the God of Israel above all else. That hasn't happened.

Christ's salvation work. Thats a whole topic entirely. I can't go into it now. If i say now that you don't know what you are talking about you'd think am sounding trite.
However, i really don't get your point. Is your jive that all scriptures have been fulfilled? Or that all prophecies will be fulfilled at the same time? That some prophecies cannot be fulfilled before others? that there is no time frame for a prophecy?
Of course that scripture pertains to the end. If it is meant to be fulfilled at the initial coming of the messiah, then when will you have a church? when will the prophecies pertaining to the church be fulfilled? when will people get to choose to accept him or reject him? If he is to have come as King at his initial coming, how then will the prophecies regarding his suffering be fulfilled? Can you have a reigning king (humanly speaking) being flogged and crucified? If he is to set up a human kingdom for Israel, how then will he have died?
Any systematic study of biblical prophecy regarding the Christ will show that there are two distinct set of prophecies that are mutually exclusive such that they cant be fulfilled at nor referring to the same time frame. If you don't understand nor acknowledge that, we can't help you.
Indeed there are many messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled, that is why we have the blessed hope and long for his appearing.

Erm, biologial descendant through the father, not through alledged step-fathers.

Sorry ma, he 'biologically descended' through his mother. Read Luke 3. Both his parents were descendants of David. He didn't have a biological father, he is 'the seed of the woman' (Gen. 3;15 - again another fulfilled prophecy), and was to be conceived by a virgin Is. 7;14

I did see the word "judge" in the verse - although I'm not quite sure how that matters, and the verse doesn't imply condemnation  for all(equity for the meek, etc isn't condemning the world). In any case, you say the verse refers to the "millennial reign of Jesus", I say that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled. We agree on that much. The Jews are rightly waiting for a messiah that doesn't need excuses and second coming to excuse unfulfilled prophecies

there is no condemnation for all. there is retribution for all - each man will get whatever he deserves, whether good or bad. the millenial reign is a futuristic event.

No, those prophecise were referring to Israel, the servant of YHVH, and were not fulfilled by Jesus. I don't mind discussing Isaiah 53 with you.

No, ma, you are wrong they are referring to the Christ. I really hate these back and forth stuffs. Let me just quote a verse in that place for you; verse 12
"Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
        So His appearance was marred more than any man
        And His form more than the sons of men."
Can you see that verse? there are two objects there. 'You' and 'Him'. 'You' is clearly explained to be Isreal ('my people') but 'He' is reffering to someone other than Isreal, one person rather than many people (hence the comparison, 'more than any man'). Ever seen the passion of the christ? do you see a mental picture of that verse being fulfilled?
I can't go into Isaiah 53 with you for the sake of time. Maybe someone else will do so. But those scriptures are very special scriptures that very literally paint a picture of Christ's suffering and death.

and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Yeah, maybe the mischief makers (including many the Christians - I suppose they must be heretics of some kind) don't have the super magic interpreting power that only true Christians have.

i wonder what your point here is again. that verse has been fulfilled. it didnt say i will gather ALL the outcasts of Isreal. If you knew the bible well like you claim you'd have come across verses that said a remnant will return. (Is. 10.22) its only a remnant. and that is very clear now in our day as many jews are still in the US and all over.

Dubious, but acceptable.

LOL, you crack me up. anyways, as always, cheers

I'm not sure we've both read the same Ezekiel 40. The author describes measurements of the walls like:

I couldn't agree more. We saw the same words no doubt but read understood different things. So you think God was talking about buildings and measurements of walls? what is the spiritual relevance of that? Read the book of Hebrews. it might help. God did a lot of things in the old testament that are symbols and shadows. the tabernacle was a symbolism. it had different physical objects which illustrate spiritual realities, eg it was three dimensional - the outer court, the inner court and the holy of holies; referring to God's temple which is man having the body, soul and spirit. etc. we are children of the Judeo-christian God and we understand these things. people that are not in him don't. i'll keep hammering it.

I can't help but be amazed at the circus tricks some apologists have to perform to keep the compartmentalisation going. I mean, read the bleeding text for Christ's sake! Bah!

Cry all you want, LOL. Biblical symbolism is a whole lecture on its own i can't go into now. Symbolism is a way for God to illustrate spiritual things in human figures. However to explain to you what i mean let me quote a scripture.
1Cor 9;9-11
"For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?"
Paul quoted an old testament scripture. Ordinary reading to an ordinary man will seem like that verse is talking about oxen. However, if you understand that the word of God is spiritual you'd know that it has to have a spiritual meaning and spiritual relevance, and that would help you to seek out the deeper meaning of what is said. Ever heard of 'allegory'? Ever read George Orwell's Animal Farm? With certain parts of the bible, there is a literal meaning, and then there is a spiritual meaning. That is why most atheists harp on the old testament, their veiled minds not understanding the spiritual realities thus represented. I really wish they'd come and start talking more on the NT. Anyways, to continue; God is not concerned about oxen enough to write about them in that fashion. Do we even use oxen now in our day to day life? so what does that scripture mean? the ox is representative of the servants of God. the threshing is their spiritual service to God in the church and it is explaining things that relate to the church.

that verse in Ezekiel 40 alongside the verses are referring to the church. Again another rule of studying scripture; relating it to other scriptures. what do they teach? We are the temple of the living GOd. GOd does not dwell in temples made with human hands, he dwells in us. Acts 17;24-25 (The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath). Even in the book of revelations the dimensions of the temple are measured. they have their meaning. the numbers are symbolic.
this is what Paul is referring to when he says 'we speak of God's secret wisdom in a mystery' and 'we speak a message of wisdom among the mature'. Mark 4;28 - first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain, all the while increasing in our revelation knowledge of Him.
All these are things the average christian understands, and the non-christian doesn't. (when i use the term 'christian' i'm not talking generically but of a certain (relative) few - the body of believers who have been ransomed by the Lamb) and when i say christianity, i'm not talking about a religous group or sect or whatever, i'm referring to the spiritual body of Christ; i just joined that body roughly a mere 10 years ago after a long time in the Roman Catholic religious organization.
Now i quoted a lot of scriptures relating to understanding the scriptures in my prior post. Now i'd ask you to explain them to me and tell me what they mean.
Isaiah 6;9-10, also Acts 28;26 what does it mean
1Cor 2:10-16
2Cor 3;14-18. what is the veil, what does it refer to?
Rom 8;4-9
1John 2;15-18
Col1;10
Eph 1;13-18,
Eph 2;5-6

Just a few verses. Since you claim to know what the Christ should do and not do, explain those scriptures then we'd go on from there. cheers.

ricadelide:

@KAG,
i linked a webpage to you. you've not said anything about that. I decided to cut and paste it here. Here goes;

No problem.

Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth:

    There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Most are ridiculously vague and filled with symobolic langauage that can easily be adapted to as many scenarios and people. Furthermore, several of the alledged prophecies aren't even prophecies in the first place.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

I'd like to see how he worked that out and what factors he implemented in his calculations.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!,  not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.

Same applies as above. Also, there's absolutely no evidence, outside of the texts that were approved into the New Testament, to support any of the claims Dr. Ruckman seems to have included.

Finally, by using the same methods of retroactive shoe-horning, the sadly departed Winace has shown, with a very limited time, how Napoleon may have been the messiah: http://www.fstdt.com/winace/napoleon_messiah.htm

I suspect with some collaboration and more time, the number of prophecies that Napoleon fulfilled could have rivalled that of the followers of Jesus. So much for statistics applied wrongly.

 

               


    Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:

Ancestors:

    1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15,  Galatians 4:4.

Ambiguous and fulfilled by every, Tom, Dick and formerly Harry, who, inspite of what the account suggests, believes in a literal reading of the Eden narrative (the inherent hypocrisy of literal readers is also made apparent in the taking of the verse as anything but literal).

Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
    - Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
    - Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

The prophecy which, unless read midrashically, was hardly messianic and wasn't referring to a woman giving birth without the input of a man - Matthew misinterpreted the verse. The verse talked about a maiden, not a virgin, giving birth; however, because of Matthew's less than optimal linguistic skills and the option of creative licence - you know the rest.

2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18,  Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
    - Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
    - Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

    3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
    - Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
    -Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)

    4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17,  Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
    - Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
    - Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)

The first two aren't messianic, and they are easily fulfilled by almost anyone; especially if you decide that the prophecy was referring to the the spiritual children of Abraham - cue the Father Abraham" hymn.

 

5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
    - Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
    - Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

Less ambiguous than the rest.

6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7,  Luke 1:32-33.
    - Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
    - Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)

Jesus didn't fulfill this : "reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."

If, however, you decide that he somehow fulfilled it spiritually or will fulfill it in some second coming, then the disingenuousness becomes even more apparent.

Birth and Childhood:

    7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2,    Matthew 2:1,  Luke 2:4-7.
    - Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
    - Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

Jesus didn't rule over Israel either.

 

8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18,  Luke 1:26-35.
    - Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
    - Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

Wrong interpretation of a prophecy that was meant for a time before Jesus came.

 

9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25,  Luke 2:1:
    - Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
    - Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
   - Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Too ambiguous. Also, the evidence for Jesus' birth date is seriously lacking.


 

10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15,  Matthew 2:16-18.
    - Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
    - Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

There's absolutely no evidence to support the Herod mass infanticide. It's more probable that it was made up by Matthew.

    11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1,  Matthew 2:14-15.
    - Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
    - Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)

Not a messianic prophecy: Israel, clearly the subject of the verse, was supposedly called out of Egypt.

12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5,  Matthew 2:23.
    - Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
    - Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! It doesn't get any plainer than this. Let's start from the very beginning; a very good place to start:

[center]2 And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.

3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:[/center]

Notice anything familiar yet? Maybe this will help:

[center]24 [size=14pt]And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson[/size][/center]

Passion:

    13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9,  John 12:13-14.
    - Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
    - Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

No external evidence that Jesus actually did that. Suggestions of creative licence used by the authors of the Gospels.

 

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2,  Mark 11:7-8.
    On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
   - Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
    - Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

First, the gates weren't closed just after Jesus' alledged entry into the city, it was closed thousands of years after. Also, according to Jewish tradition, the messiah will still be coming through the gates of Jerusalem and then afterwards - immediately afterwards - the gate will be shut.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9,  Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
    - Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
    - Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
    - Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
    - Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)
    16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13,  Matthew 27:6-7.
    - Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
    - Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

All the OT verses have been taken out of context (doesn't that just tickle your sense of irony?). The first, Pslams, isn't a prophecy and the rest of its context show how the pslamist's writings diverges not only from what Christians have tried to fit it into, but also from traditional Christian dogma.

[center]
4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee

8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.

9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

10 But thou, O LORD, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite them.[/center]

Zeceriah's is also not a prophecy:

[center]11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.[/center]


Furthermore, the rather laughable attempt to make the verses fit by having Judas have some association with "potter" ( any kind will do. How about potter's field? Genius!) is further unwound by the fact that in the other account of Judas and his potter's field (Acts 1:18) Judas doesn't cast his money in the temple: he, himself, uses the money to buy the fields. Can anyone say artistic licence?

I'm going to stop at this juncture as this exericse which involves checking into so many dishonest claims is rather tiring.[quote][/quote]

ricadelide:

Now, coming to your own posts,,,,,,
Naah, you wont hear me saying that every prophecy in the scripture has been fulfilled, of course not. Every prophecy has its time frame; some pertaining to the end times, some to the second coming, some to Christ's first coming, some to the millenial reign etc.
Let me paste a verse for you,,,,
1Pet.1:10-12
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

Then, why bother asking for the unfulfilled prophecies? In any case, I guess my assertion wasn't wrong and we can both agree on the fact that Jesus didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies - caveats of he'll do it when he comes back are rightly ignored.

If you decide to get all muddled up on this issue that we've tried to explain to you over and over again, then there's little we can do to help.
the word of God is perfect. Another quote [snip]

Uh? My post was: ", Don't forget, the exercise was to show the mesianic prophecies that haven't been fulfilled by Jesus. sure, you could claim he just hasn't done it yet, but it would still be a moot claim." I don't see how I got nuddled up on that issue, especially as it seems we generally agree that Jesus didn't fulfill all of them. Maybe you muddled the posts up? By the way, careful examination of the bible will show that it isn't perfect.

Christ's salvation work. Thats a whole topic entirely. I can't go into it now.

I didn't ask you to - heck, I don't even know why you brought it up.

If i say now that you don't know what you are talking about you'd think am sounding trite.

I wouldn't say that; I'd just put it down to your ineptitude.

However, i really don't get your point. Is your jive that all scriptures have been fulfilled? Or that all prophecies will be fulfilled at the same time? That some prophecies cannot be fulfilled before others? that there is no time frame for a prophecy?

My point was that Jesus failed to fulfill many of the messianic prophecies.

Of course that scripture pertains to the end. If it is meant to be fulfilled at the initial coming of the messiah, then when will you have a church? when will the prophecies pertaining to the church be fulfilled? when will people get to choose to accept him or reject him? If he is to have come as King at his initial coming, how then will the prophecies regarding his suffering be fulfilled? Can you have a reigning king (humanly speaking) being flogged and crucified? If he is to set up a human kingdom for Israel, how then will he have died?

Ergo, put a spin on it and disregard the fact the prophecy wasn't fulfilled. First, I don't know your views of church and why it would be necessary, but you can have a church even and especially because the whole world is exalting YHVH.

Second, the messiah, according to Jewish readings, isn't meant to be flogged and crucified, so that's a moot objection. Finally, since Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecy it's illogical to try to view it from light of his failure.

Any systematic study of biblical prophecy regarding the Christ will show that there are two distinct set of prophecies that are mutually exclusive such that they can't be fulfilled at nor referring to the same time frame. If you don't understand nor acknowledge that, we can't help you.

An a proper study of the Tanakh shows that there is only one set of prophecies to be fulfilled by the messiah; that Christians and the Gospel writers, faced with the reality of unfulfilled prophecies, have chosen the laughable route of hoping that the remaining prophecies will be accomplished at some later future date (maybe a few decades? Maybe a few millennia - it'll happen, trust me) is inconsequential.

Indeed there are many messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled, that is why we have the blessed hope and long for his appearing.

Glad you finally caught up.

Sorry ma, he 'biologically descended' through his mother. Read Luke 3. Both his parents were descendants of David.

I'm sure you just accidentally missed the part where I mention that he has to be a descendant of Solomon too.

He didn't have a biological father, he is 'the seed of the woman' (Gen. 3;15 - again another fulfilled prophecy), and was to be conceived by a virgin Is. 7;14
there is no condemnation for all. there is retribution for all - each man will get whatever he deserves, whether good or bad. the millenial reign is a futuristic event.

He did have a biological father; he wasn't conceived by a virgin (once again, that was a misiterpretation of the OT verse), and two millennia have already gone.

No, ma, you are wrong they are referring to the Christ. I really hate these back and forth stuffs. Let me just quote a verse in that place for you; verse 12
"Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men."
Can you see that verse? there are two objects there. 'You' and 'Him'. 'You' is clearly explained to be Isreal ('my people') but 'He' is reffering to someone other than Isreal, one person rather than many people (hence the comparison, 'more than any man'). Ever seen the passion of the christ? do you see a mental picture of that verse being fulfilled?
I can't go into Isaiah 53 with you for the sake of time. Maybe someone else will do so. But those scriptures are very special scriptures that very literally paint a picture of Christ's suffering and death.

The grammatical structure doesn't actually mean that the verse and the book as whole is referring to someone other than Israel. However, I have no problem accepting the book as a messianic prophecy, because either way Jesus still didn't fulfill the prophecy.

First, Isaiah 53:7 says: "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. A cursory reading of John shows that wasn't the case.

Second, verse 10 says "he shall see his seed". According to traditional Christian doctrine, Jesus didn't have any offsprings.

i wonder what your point here is again. that verse has been fulfilled. it didnt say i will gather ALL the outcasts of Isreal. If you knew the bible well like you claim you'd have come across verses that said a remnant will return. (Is. 10.22) its only a remnant. and that is very clear now in our day as many jews are still in the US and all over.

My point was that the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled (pointing out the obvious gets old quickly). Also, the verse coupled with the one before it does imply that it will all the remnants that are dispersed around the world.

By the way, you do know what remnant means, right?

And, if you read the Bible in context like you alluded to, you'd have noticed that Isaiah 10:22 wasn't talking about the Israelites being returned to Israel; it was talking about them returning to God

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return:

LOL, you crack me up. anyways, as always, cheers /quote]

Well, I try.

ricadelide:

I couldn't agree more. We saw the same words no doubt but read understood different things. So you think God was talking about buildings and measurements of walls? what is the spiritual relevance of that?

No, I saw the text and realised based on the very detailed specifications and measurements, that the author was describing a physical thing. The spiritual relevance, if we are to assume that it has any such component, would be, as I have previously mentioned, a sign of the messiah: "The Temple will be rebuilt, resuming many of the suspended mitzvot".

Incidentally, call me when you get to chapter 44 of the book of Ezekiel.

Read the book of Hebrews. it might help. God did a lot of things in the old testament that are symbols and shadows.

I know a lot of things in the Old Testament are allegorical - I've said as much. This, however, isn't one of them.

the tabernacle was a symbolism. it had different physical objects which illustrate spiritual realities, eg it was three dimensional - the outer court, the inner court and the holy of holies; referring to God's temple which is man having the body, soul and spirit. etc.

You still haven't read the chapter, nor have you read the chapters that follow it. Again, read it: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=40&version=31

I can't wait to find out that the numbers, measurements and the priests actually mean the blood and the cells and the distance between the brain and the soul, or something.

we are children of the Judeo-christian God and we understand these things.

Then it's either you and most Christians aren't children of the Christian God, or you are full of shit (no offence)

people that are not in him don't. i'll keep hammering it.

Feel free to, and I'll keep on politely reminding you that you're being disingenuous.

Cry all you want, LOL. Biblical symbolism is a whole lecture on its own i can't go into now. Symbolism is a way for God to illustrate spiritual things in human figures. However to explain to you what i mean let me quote a scripture. [snip]

You don't have to explain Biblical symbolism to me, I understand it well enough.

that verse in Ezekiel 40 alongside the verses are referring to the church. Again another rule of studying scripture; relating it to other scriptures. what do they teach? We are the temple of the living GOd. GOd does not dwell in temples made with human hands, he dwells in us. Acts 17;24-25 (The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath). Even in the book of revelations the dimensions of the temple are measured. they have their meaning. the numbers are symbolic.
this is what Paul is referring to when he says 'we speak of God's secret wisdom in a mystery' and 'we speak a message of wisdom among the mature'. Mark 4;28 - first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain, all the while increasing in our revelation knowledge of Him.

Now that you've asserted that Ezekiel 40 (and by default the chapters following it that carry on with the same theme) isn't meant to be taken literally, what are we to do with Ezekiel 44: 1-2? You know, the verses that you used as messianic prophecies. Surely, the gate can't be physical, can it?

All these are things the average christian understands, and the non-christian doesn't. (when i use the term 'christian' i'm not talking generically but of a certain (relative) few - the body of believers who have been ransomed by the Lamb) and when i say christianity, i'm not talking about a religous group or sect or whatever, i'm referring to the spiritual body of Christ;

Ah, so that would be Christianity: those that agree completely with my interpretations.

i just joined that body roughly a mere 10 years ago after a long time in the Roman Catholic religious organization.

I guess it was to be expected that you'd consider Catholics non-Christians, too.

Now i quoted a lot of scriptures relating to understanding the scriptures in my prior post. Now i'd ask you to explain them to me and tell me what they mean.

Just a few verses. Since you claim to know what the Christ should do and not do, explain those scriptures then we'd go on from there. cheers.

Not now, I've just spent too much time trawling the desperate and, frankly, inane apologetics.

there's no use going back and forth.

Poster 1; verse a says this
reply; no this is not what it means, it was just a fabrication of so and so
Poster 1; ok, this is another verse
reply; no, it is vague and does not refer to that.
Poster 1; what of this verse, and this verse, and that
Reply; they are all lies, and ambigous, and vague, and contrived!

i really don't have the time to go over your flagrant denial of the facts and misinterpretation of scriptures. My goal is not and has never been about winning an argument, its about bringing about knowledge and i must have really thought there was an interest in learning - albeit i was wrong.
You even went as far as accusing the writers of the new testament of lying and manipulating the scriptures just to keep from acknowledging how plainly the word holds true. Anyways, if you believe that the new testament is a contraption of lies, there is no common ground from which to argue from and we'd just be going back and forth.

this is the crux of the matter;

It is possible to know 'about' the bible, and yet not know the bible. the bible is a living book, that is why those who are in Him FEED on his words day in day out. it is our life. they cannot survive spiritually without it. it nurtures our spirits and causes us to grow spiritually in Him. Ps.1;2-3, Matt.4;4, Psalm 19;7-11 You can know about the words in the scripture but yet not know the word of God, you can know the sentences and yet not know the God of the Word. Indeed, the letter kills. For instance, you might have read about Abacha and know a lot about him, but that doesnt mean you know Abacha. You can't predict what he will do, you can't tell which choices he will make in a given situation, you can't tell that he is approaching best on his footsteps etc those kinds of knowledge are only attained on a one-to-one basis and not through third parties. Its the same with the Word of God, which is Christ. There are many theology professors who know the scriptures (i mean the letter) more than i do, but they have not touched the God of the Word. As far as God is concerned, they are third parties. They are not privy to his heart.  They are still as blinded as night (John 9;39) and don't know their right from their left. Ps.103;7 says "He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the children of Israel". Moses knew God, the isrealites knew about God. Also, that was what Jesus was talking about in John 3;5-8. Nicodemus was a Pharisee who knew the scriptures, yet he didn't know God. John. 5;39-40. the pharisees knew the word, yet the word they knew did not profit them, because it did not mix with faith in their hearts. (just like the Isrealites in Heb. 4;2,3) However, like that verse 3 says, we who have beleived enter into that rest.

So, best wishes in your chosen course. You make me remeber the parable of the sower - indeed there are different types of soil. I'd stick to the word of GOd, which is able to transform my soul.
At the last day, we'd see who is right; hopefully Baba will rescue you before then. Cheers.

ricadelide:

there's no use going back and forth.

Well, it does have its uses, so I won't disparage it.

Poster 1; verse a says this
reply; no this is not what it means, it was just a fabrication of so and so
Poster 1; ok, this is another verse
reply; no, it is vague and does not refer to that.
Poster 1; what of this verse, and this verse, and that
Reply; they are all lies, and ambigous, and vague, and contrived!

LoL, I'm pretty certain the discussion hasn't been that way. In most cases, I have posted the verses and given reasons for any assertion I've made only to be met with the bizzare claim that any interpretation or points I've made can't be right because I'm not a Christian and only True Christians (TM) can undertsand the Bible. Any verse (and this has probably only occured in the rather long copy/paste of "mesianic prophecies" that I didn't given an adequate reason for labelling vague and ambiguous, was probably one that was obviously so.

Finally, have reached Ezekiel 44 yet?

i really don't have the time to go over your flagrant denial of the facts and misinterpretation of scriptures.

I took the time to go over your denial of the facts and your misinterpretations of the Bible, but I guess that's just me.

My goal is not and has never been about winning an argument, its about bringing about knowledge and i must have really thought there was an interest in learning - albeit i was wrong.

Ditto.

You even went as far as accusing the writers of the new testament of lying and manipulating the scriptures just to keep from acknowledging how plainly the word holds true.

When you've found, for example, any historical account of Herod's mass infanticide I'll accept that in instances like that, the Gospel writers - in this case Matthew, a serial offender - didn't apply creativity to shoehorn their candidate. In fact, thinking about it, I don't think any other Gospel writer remembered the attrocity.

Anyways, if you believe that the new testament is a contraption of lies, there is no common ground from which to argue from and we'd just be going back and forth.

I don't believe the New Testament is a contraption of lies, I just hold, based on a close reading of the texts, that parts of it are untrue and even contradict each other.

this is the crux of the matter;

I disagree.

So, best wishes in your chosen course. You make me remeber the parable of the sower - indeed there are different types of soil. I'd stick to the word of GOd, which is able to transform my soul.
At the last day, we'd see who is right; hopefully Baba will rescue you before then. Cheers.

Thank you, best of wishes to you too. I should mention - out of a need to inform - that this discussion has actually done more to reassure me that I am indeed right and that Christianity, with the amount of dishonesty and hypocrisy necessary to keep the faith alive, isn't a path to the God it hopes is alive: the God of love. Maybe we will never find out who's right. Does it matter? I couldn't say. In any case, be'hatzlacha. Shalom.

2Cor. 2;16

Is Jesus coming back again.Christians claim that heaven is further than the furthest star, and that is where Jesus went with his father to prepare a place for you, right. Remember, John 14:2 “In my father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you.” However, if you look at the possibility of Jesus coming back, the furthest star away from Earth is billions of light years away. Therefore, in actuality, Jesus still didn't get to heaven. There's no way he could be on his way back.

you say the bible is fake and of the white man, yet you quote it in your accusation against the same figure! lol

was it some wise "dude" that asked; "can the devil cast out the devil?" (PAR)

you say the bible is fake and of the white man, yet you quote it in your accusation against the same figure! lol

was it some wise "dude" that asked; "can the devil cast out the devil?"

I think you are mixing with a DIFERENT TOPIC.Where did i talk about the white man in this topic.
In the future just avoid talking to me,OK!!!!!!

do your views change depending on the subject?

do your views change depending on the subject?

.Where did i talk about the white man in this topic.Where How

:-x

Whether you like it or not, believe it or not, Jesus is coming back again and nothing is going to change nor stop that because the word of God will be fulfilled.
Take it or leave it!

Horus:

Therefore, in actuality, Jesus still didn't get to heaven. There's no way he could be on his way back.

Where then did Jesus get to?

Telly B:

Where then did Jesus get to?

Omicron Persei Eight.

He aint coming back mehn,he busy turning into crude oil 6ft under jerusalem,

the good thing about biblical prophecies is their vagueness. Jesus would still be planning to come back 2000 years from now.

The guys that have tried to put a date on jesus's 2nd coming have failed. live your life and enjoy it

These people have been waiting 45 years for John Frum, their son of god to return to them. When they were told by the british that they are wasting their time, they told the british "you have been waiting 2000 years for your god to return to you so dont tell us to stop waiting for ours!"

The last of the cargo cults
http://www.nthposition.com/thelastcargo.php

This shows how easy it is for a religion to form amonst people who are confronted with things they cannot comprehend. Just like how Christians claim to have all the answers past, present and future, contained in a book.