davidylan:

Please read 1 Corinthians 15 and stop making an ignorant fool of urself.

Pls learn to read before hurrying up to expel nonsense. . . . My assertion still remains, NO writer of the bible has ever claimed to have meet Jesus in person when Jesus was alive, NOT even Paul, Paul always talked about having vision of Jesus and that's it. . . . .Paul claims 500 others had a vision of Christ. The Gospels do not mention that, no other writer mentions that, and we have no names or evidence for any of the 500. Even IF it happened  they had a VISION like Paul  nothing historical, but this is NOT the point, If a man named Jesus existed so what? A man named Mohammed existed too, the founders of other religions existed too, did a man name Jesus really die and resurrected on the 3rd day?. . . . .Did Mohammed really ascend to heaven on the back of a wing beast?. . . . .That's what I am more interested in not the existence of the people behind the myth. . . The existence of Jesus, Mohammed or the founder of any religion is not the point am really interested in. . . . .

davidylan:



Stup[i]i[/i]d. Its like saying there is more proof that pope John paul II existed than pope bartholomew . . . of course one existed at least 500 - 700 yrs after the other had died.

If there was a man behind the Jesus "myth" . . . tacitus clearly refers to him as the CHRIST.

Again we are back to the same issue - arguing from a position of blind dogma. As far as you are concerned, Christ didnt exist so you are trying to twist everything to fit that conclusion even when they dont.

Firstly, the name Christ simply means the anointed one and there were many Christ during the 1st century. Josephus wrote that emperor Vespasian was the Christ, so nothing new or unique there. . . .secondly, you seem to be making things up and running commentary on them, cos I never said that Jesus did not exist, I personally believe that there is a man behind the Jesus story just as there are men behind other religious legends. . . . .

See this argument really doesnt make sense to the rational mind . . . [b]one example - we talk about the hanging gardens of babylon . . . and we regard it RIGHTLY as being historically true [/b]even though evidence comes from writers who lived centuries AFTER the wall existed! Seriously? Hearsay is only a problem when it comes to that of Jesus?

Again you are just running commentary on your own. . . .I don't believe in any hanging gardens of babylon, I wont believe in it until I see sufficient evidence for it. . . .Here say is always a problem for all unsubstantiated clams not only that of Jesus. . . . .

mazaje:

Pls learn to read before hurrying up to expel nonsense. . . . My assertion still remains, NO writer of the bible has ever claimed to have meet Jesus in person when Jesus was alive, NOT even Paul, Paul always talked about having vision of Jesus and that's it. . . . .Paul claims 500 others had a vision of Christ. The Gospels do not mention that, no other writer mentions that, and we have no names or evidence for any of the 500. Even IF it happened  they had a VISION like Paul  nothing historical, but this is NOT the point, If a man named Jesus existed so what? A man named Mohammed existed too, the founders of other religions existed too, did a man name Jesus really die and resurrected on the 3rd day?. . . . .Did Mohammed really ascend to heaven on the back of a wing beats?. . . . .That what I am more interested in not the existence of the people behind the myth. . . The existence of Jesus Mohammed or the founder of any religion is not the point am really interested in. . . . .

Did you read 1 Cor 15? Same old problem . . . arguing from a position of unintelligent closed mindedness. you simply saw the quote from Jim Walker and somehow you believe its true. Well lets read the facts:

1. NONE of the new testament letters (yes there were all letters to a growing church which is why diaries, itineraries and folks they met are not included) . . . were meant to be regarded as a litany of activities by the authors. For instance. NOWHERE in his letters does Paul tell us anything about his father, mother, whether he had brothers or sisters (we read about his being celibate because he was making a point on marriage to the romans) or friends. Does this mean he never had any of the above?

I mean seriously are these guys that blind?

James wrote only 5 chapters . . . on the basis of your argument we can conclude that he had no parents, no family, no house, he wasnt born anywhere (afterall we dont read him saying i was born in so and so) . . .

2. 1 Cor 15:4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul references him meeting James at least 4 times!

mazaje:

Firstly the name Christ simply means the anointed one and there were many Christ during the 1st century. Josephus wrote that emperor Vespasian was the Christ, so nothing new or unique there. . . .

Save that Tacitus clearly indicates to us that this Christ was unique in the sense that he spawed a "superstition" in his name that spread throughout Judea and Rome. Vespasian did nothing of the sort. Of course you do not intend to see the facts.

mazaje:

secondly, you seem to be making things up and running commentary on them, cos I never said that Jesus did not exist, I personally believe that there is a man behind the Jesus story just as there are men behind other religious legends. . . . .

because there is just way too overwhelming evidence that its impossible to call that a myth also.

mazaje:

Again you are just running commentary on your own. . . .I don't believe in any hanging gardens of babylon, I wont believe in it until I see sufficient evidence for it. . . .Here say is always a problem for all unsubstantiated clams not only that of Jesus. . . . .

you dont have to believe it . . . it really isnt about you. This is verified historical facts. You can continue living in a cave.

@Dolemite,
you can see so far in this argument that you are the one misguided about God and not your mother. Atheists are always uncomfortable when they are confronted with the truth about Jesus.
You people claim that atheism has removed the fear of hell from you as if removing fear of hell from your heart makes hell none existent. If a car temperature is rising and you disconnect the guage from reading it does that mean that the engine has stopped over heating? When some of you atheists talk i see emptiness in your reasons.
Istill pray you go back to God and serve him in spirit and in truth  not according to your own selfish way. God will help you.

alexleo:

@Dolemite,
you can see so far in this argument that you are the one misguided about God and not your mother. Atheists are always uncomfortable when they are confronted with the truth about Jesus.
You people claim that atheism has removed the fear of hell from you as if removing fear of hell from your heart makes hell none existent. If a car temperature is rising and you disconnect the guage from reading it does that mean that the engine has stopped over heating? When some of you atheists talk i see emptiness in your reasons.
Istill pray you go back to God and serve him in spirit and in truth  not according to your own selfish way. God will help you.

Ol boy, even i didnt think of that analogy! Brilliant!

alexleo:

@Dolemite,
you can see so far in this argument that you are the one misguided about God and not your mother. Atheists are always uncomfortable when they are confronted with the truth about Jesus.
You people claim that atheism has removed the fear of hell from you as if removing fear of hell from your heart makes hell none existent. If a car temperature is rising and you disconnect the guage from reading it does that mean that the engine has stopped over heating? When some of you atheists talk i see emptiness in your reasons.
Istill pray you go back to God and serve him in spirit and in truth  not according to your own selfish way. God will help you.

This one keeps making empty assertions, pls what are the "TRUTH" about Jesus that makes the atheist uncomfortable?Since when did stories that you have been indoctrinated to believe in through "faith" since childhood equate to truth or reality. . . . . .The way some of you guys go about confidently spewing rubbish is truly amazing. . . . .Fear of hell, eh, nice to know that your religion is predicated ONLY on fear. . . . .

Dolemite and Mazaje would do well to read the works of Celsus . . . a greek philosopher who was seriously anti-christian (so the excuse that his works are an interpolation from modern day christians or he copied from christian sources doesnt arise here).

He makes records of Christ's birth, parents, journey, miracles and all.

See there really is no excuse at all save to those who choose not to see.

@mazaje,
keep deceiving yourself even in the face of numerous facts that has been presented to you by various christians in this forum.
apart from historical facts which you have always foolisly faulted (to your own peril though), how about the present day evidence of one of your fellow atheist in this forum with the name banom? Didnt he give his testimony here of how he woke up and felt something strange and wonderful that made him know that there is God? After reading it what was your response? You people are just deceving yourselves, hiding away from the truth about God. You think we have anything to lose if you refuse to repent? We are just carrying out the responsibility given to us by Jesus and if you reject it you have yourself to blame at last. May God help you.

alexleo:

@mazaje,
keep deceiving yourself even in the face of numerous facts that has been presented to you by various christians in this forum.

Pls stop misusing he word fact here, No body has ever presented any fact here with regards to the Christian faith, How does believe in ancients stories that has absolute NO basis in reality equate to fact?. . . . . .All you and others like you have put forth is your own personal beliefs with has nothing to do with reality by the way. . . . . .

apart from historical facts which you have always foolisly faulted (to your own peril though),

What are the historical facts, beside the lying gospels who's author remain unknown till this day and the lying writings of the early Church fathers who else talks about Jesus as it apears in the gospels?. . . . The gospels are NOT historical documents but religious document whose main purpose is to make people believe in what ever the writers wrote down. . . . .I repeat the gospels are NOT historical documents but religious documents. . ,

how about the present day evidence of one of your fellow atheist in this forum with the name banom? Didnt he give his testimony here of how he woke up and felt something strange and wonderful that made him know that there is God? After reading it what was your response? You people are just deceving yourselves, hiding away from the truth about God. You think we have anything to lose if you refuse to repent? We are just carrying out the responsibility given to us by Jesus and if you reject it you have yourself to blame at last. May God help you.

Ohh, so personal feelings mans there is God ,eh? Since when?. . .What about others that felt very strong feelings and it lead them to leave Christianity to Islam or other religions? Pls talk sensible and stop talking off point. . .The rest of your drivel is not worth responding to. ,

davidylan:

Dolemite and Mazaje would do well to read the works of Celsus . . . a greek philosopher who was seriously anti-christian (so the excuse that his works are an interpolation from modern day christians or he copied from christian sources doesnt arise here).

He makes records of Christ's birth, parents, journey, miracles and all.

See there really is no excuse at all save to those who choose not to see.

What is this?, Firstly the work of Celsus as we know them to be today were brought to us by Christian apologist, His original work has been lost. . . .From wikipedia. . . .

Celsus was the author of an anti-Christian work titled "The true discourse". The work is lost, but much of it is preserved word-for-word in the pages of a refutation by Origen.
Celsus and his work are unknown other than from the refutation of his work by Origen. Unfortunately Origen knew little about him. He knew that he "has already been dead for a long time"[1] and had heard that there were two philosophers of that name, both Epicureans, one living in the time of Nero, the other in Hadrian's time or later.[2] He treats Celsus as an Epicurean, therefore, although with some hesitation[3].
Eusebius of Caesarea also mentions the work in his Contra Hieroclem but it is unclear whether he ever saw it, or simply knew Origen's refutation

Secondly, Celsus wrote about Jesus about 200 years after the death of Jesus, Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus. There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime. Al he was trying to discredit were the popular Christian claims, he wrote about 200 years after the alleged death of Jesus, so how are his writings not based on hear say?. . . .All of the non-Christian references to Jesus can be shown to have either been introduced later by Christian scribes or were originally based on Christian claims. . ,  . .

Philo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in Judea

This thread for atheists to uncover themselves, but David has hijacked it,

Kay 17:

This thread for atheists to uncover themselves, but David has hijacked it,

davidylan is just telling you people the truth and nothing but the truth and because you atheists hate to hear the truth which was the chief reason you abadoned the way of God thats why you keep complaining, abusing and all sorts of trash we get from you people in the name of atheism.
May God save your soul.

davidylan:

Did you read 1 Cor 15? Same old problem . . . arguing from a position of unintelligent closed mindedness. you simply saw the quote from Jim Walker and somehow you believe its true. Well lets read the facts:

1. NONE of the new testament letters (yes there were all letters to a growing church which is why diaries, itineraries and folks they met are not included) . . . were meant to be regarded as a litany of activities by the authors. For instance. NOWHERE in his letters does Paul tell us anything about his father, mother, whether he had brothers or sisters (we read about his being celibate because he was making a point on marriage to the romans) or friends. Does this mean he never had any of the above?

I mean seriously are these guys that blind?

What is this man saying?. . . . .Learn to argue coherently. . . .I repeat there is NON of the writers of the new testament that has ever claimed to have seen or know Jesus beside the writer of second peter whom most scholars believe is a forgery. . . . .NON of the writers of the gospels has ever claimed to have meet Jesus, all you have are documents flowing around which were written by UNKNOWN men about some one called Jesus, documents which were made available and became popular to most people in the 2nd and 3rd century AD(100s of years after the death of the Jesus character they wrote about). . . . .

Gospel of Mark
The author of this book never identifies himself at all, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to the Church tradition, Mark was a secretary of Peter and he never met Jesus. This Gospel, like all of them, started out as an un-named book, no body till this day knows who wrote that gospel.

Gospel of Matthew
The author of this book never identifies himself also, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to the Church tradition it was written by an apostle but it never says so, and it mentions Matthew without the slightest hint that HE was writing it.

Gospel of Luke
The author of this book never identifies himself too, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to the Church tradition it was written by a follower of Paul.

Gospel of John
According to tradition this Gospel was written by the apostle John, and the last chapter says :
" This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true."
It is very clear from reading it that this is part of a chapter that was added to the Gospels, and it is clearly someone else making a claim for the book. It most certainly does not even come close to specific claim that anyone personally met Jesus.

All the stories we have in the bible are stories written very long after the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus by UNKNOWN people and were later ascribed to various names according to the Church tradition and NOT the authors themselves. . . . . .

James wrote only 5 chapters . . . on the basis of your argument we can conclude that he had no parents, no family, no house, he wasnt born anywhere (afterall we dont read him saying i was born in so and so) . . .

You were the one that said James said he meet Jesus while Jesus was alive and I asked you to show me where James wrote that he had ever meet any Jesus. . . . . .

2. 1 Cor 15:4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul references him meeting James at least 4 times!

Since when did James become Jesus?. . . . .

alexleo:

[b]davidylan is just telling you people the truth and nothing but the truth [/b]and because you atheists hate to hear the truth which was the chief reason you abadoned the way of God thats why you keep complaining, abusing and all sorts of trash we get from you people in the name of atheism.
May God save your soul.

Which "truth" has davidylan told any body here?. . . . .It seems you clearly do not know what the word truth means so stop misusing it. . . . .

mazaje:

Since when did James become Jesus?. . . . .

I think he means James meeting Jesus 4 times after his resurrection.

Pastor AIO:

I think he means James meeting Jesus 4 times after his resurrection.

According to what some other person wrote, right?. . . . .No where did any James stated himself that he ever meet any Jesus in any part of the bible. . . . .

As an Atheist,when  it comes to religion,in feeling  forms,i feel nil.