in the order of Melchizedek

Actually, it is AFTER the order of Melchizedek.

So what does that mean?  Seems many quote this scripture often but never understand what it means.

It is talking about an order; i.e. first, second, third, fourth,

In Hebrews 7:18 it says the command was disannulled.  That means that Numbers 18, the ordinance that established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing as its means of support was DISANNULLED, or ANNULLED.  That means it is treated as though there was never a Levitical priesthood.  It erases it.  Takes it out of the picture.

That leaves the priesthood of Melchizedek being FOLLOWED BY the priesthood of believers.  It's as though there never was a priesthood in-between the two.

The priesthood of Melchizedek was established WITHOUT the law.  The Levitical priesthood was established WITHIN the law.  The priesthood of born-again believers was established WITHOUT the law.  No law established the priesthood of Melchizedek, and no law established the current priesthood.

The whole purpose of the tithe being brought up in Hebrews 7 is to show "the less is blessed of the better."

Hebrews 7:17 (KJV)  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7 also shows the priesthood of believers with Jesus as high priest is SUPERIOR to that of Melchizedek.

To bring into play tithing now is to bring an INFERIOR method of giving into a SUPERIOR priesthood.  It diminishes what Jesus did on the cross.  It diminishes grace.  It diminishes the use of the Holy Spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67wiZovdpl0&feature=related

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67wiZovdpl0?fs[/flash]

Joagbaje:

Christ came in the order of Melchizedek , tithe collection was Revealed in the order of mechizedek. There is no single scripture where God or any prophet spoke against tithing. Jesus endorsed it the only time he made reference to it. If no single scripture condemend tithing ,we have no right to condemn it. Whoever is not convinced in his heart to tithe is free, but should not condemned those who believe in tithing .

Haba pastor JoAgbaje!

Remember this passage?:

John 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.


We must not add to the Scriptures in an effort to justify an unholy practice of mandatory tithes, Nigerian and some American Churches are all about money these days, go figure.

This is another good tithe video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-sXZLmB24

@Zikky,

@Image123, maybe I can add my thoughts here. Please note I have not gone through any dictionary, so I could be wrong, and don’t hesitate to correct me if you believe I am.

The harvest is not an income. Let’s consider a manufacturing concern like Unilever or Nestle. To produce Milo, Nestle will combine a number of raw materials (your seed) in addition to labour. The end product which is Milo (your harvest) is still an asset (stock) of finished goods which is kept in the warehouse. It becomes or generates income only sales are made to customers. Shell or Exxon-Mobil extracts crude oil from the ground, the crude is not income to the company till it’s sold.

Let even assume that this is income (which of course is not true, but let just assume), the business man then must tithe from what his business generates and not his profit as some people believes.

I see a bit more complexity in the tithe of the flocks. It says every tenth animal that passes under the rod is holy unto the Lord. What I see here is that you can tithe from your flock year after year even if there were no new additions in the year. The tithe was not from the additions to your assets. The fact that the tithe is the tenth animal means you don’t tithe if you have just nine. So you see not everything is tithe-able

Hi, maybe you should go through a dictionary. gary has decided to stick to his economics textbook definitions, and thinks anything outside his textbook is EXPANSION of God's Word. First to your analogy, Nestle is not an individual. the individuals working at Nestle do not consider milo as theirs. They probably wouldn't agree to be paid in Milo. They must even ask for permission before borrowing milo for themselves. The organisation doesn't function just as a department but as a team. they have marketers and sales outlet into which they invest a lot. They all share from the gains when sales are made. Of course, the milo is valuable asset to the company, but it needs to be exchanged to another value(usually monetary) before they can declare that they've arrived. The Israelites could easily make use of their crops and herds  etc as ready means of exchange. It was their moneywealth. That's the kind of society they lived in. Their riches were majorly in agric produce, not in the banks like is popular today. Their own banks were filled with agric produce, not paper.
It's a similar thing for Shell and crude oil. BTW, Shell doesn't sow crude oil. Their sowing/labour is in the drilling, refining and selling. Their harvest is in the exchange. The individuals that work there are not paid in barrels of oil, their own gain is money. The company is different from the individual.
Then to the definition of 'income'. i thought education should tell us that income is simply something that comes in, an increase. Well, since we must resort to higher authorities(books). let me quote one or two.

Income, money or other gain or return resulting from goods or services produced in a given period of time, usually measured annually. Income may be received by an individual or by an entity, such as a corporation or a government.

The various types of income are usually described within the private or the public sector of economic activity. In the private sector the four major types of income are wages, the return for labor; rent, the return for use of land; interest, the return for the use of capital; and profit, the return to the business owner. Income in the public sector, called national income, is the money measure of the annual flow of goods and services in an economy.

Income is normally measured in money terms, although nonmoney definitions are sometimes used. Real income refers not to the actual money income

Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Note the bolded.
I'm looking at Wikipedia and i see almost the same thing, you may also freely check it. I'll quote a sentence there; "Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
This are for the general public. this is what the common man views income as. That's why i was telling gary that it's not only accountants and economists that live on earth. He can't limit meanings to what he must put down at an exam or for tax purposes, that's not the purpose of education. I'm going out, i'll see to respond to other issues laterrrr. thanks

"Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"

@Image123,

And that definition is correct. Now you have to understand the meaning of earnings.

Using YOUR understanding of the definition of income, if YOU build YOURSELF something, you now have income. If you have a tree on your property I guess you think that is income to you. If you chop down the tree, the wood would also be income to you whether you sold any of it or not.

Things of nature are not income UNLESS you sell them or trade them. They are GIVEN TO US by God.

Whatever your definition, seems to me you would have to be consistent when you file your INCOME tax return and use the same definition since the tax laws, at least in the US, say that ALL INCOME is taxable except for specific excluded items that the tax laws list. ALL INCOME.

So tell me, Image123, IF the harvest is income, then would the sale of the harvest create additional income? Obviously even the definitions YOU furnished will treat the profit from the sale of the harvest as income. So now you are treating the EXACT SAME ITEMS as income TWICE.

You just don't have any concept of what income really means.

I swear I'm tired of all these arguments! Ahn ahn ki lo de? You people no dey rest?  

@Image123,

We can go on forever arguing the definition of income. Doesn't really matter at all. REGARDLESS of the definition you choose, I have shown that the scriptures excluded income from the tithe. I will give it to you again:

Numbers 18:27 (KJV) “And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.”

That verse is referring to the Levites who were required to tithe from the tithe they received. If you fully understand the above verse, you will see how it PROVES, beyond any reasonable doubt, that even WAGES could NOT be tithed on. IF wages, or income, could be tithed on, that verse means nothing. It would just be taking up space.

Please tell me, if all income was tithable, WHY did God limited every tenth animal to ONLY animals in herds and flocks? Why not all animals?

By the middle of the 13th century, the Church’s claim to tithes was extended not only to the products of the field, but the poultry of the yard and the cattle of the stall, to the catch of fish and the game of the forests.
--History of the Christian Church, Volume VI: The Middle Ages. A.D. 1294-1517. by Philip Schaff, page 172

How is it that the Church's claim to tithes was EXTENDED in the middle of the 13th century to other animals if everything was tithable to begin with?

I suggest you read the following resources:
IN PURSUIT OF THE ALMIGHT’S DOLLAR: A History of Money and American
Protestantism by James Hudnut-Beumler.
A HISTORY OF TITHES by the Rev. Henry William Clarke, B.A.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH by Philip Schaff.

InesQor:

You people no dey rest?

Why we go rest

@Image123,

Another problem with your argument.

God didn't command a tithe on ALL income. He didn't even command a tithe on ALL animals. The fact that when tithing crops you were allowed to redeem, or buy back the crops, but you could NOT redeem the animals presents a problem when EXPANDING God's definition.

Now, IF you are going to tithe on fish, is it every tenth fish, or is it just any tenth? Are you allowed to redeem the tithe on the fish?

If the carpenter is paid with some crops, some animals, some fish, and some clothing, how does he tithe on the fish and clothing?

IF you are paid with money, do you tithe on every tenth dollar you earn, or is it just any tenth as with the crops?

If you work and your pay is strictly room and board, but no money or anything else, how do you pay the tithe on the room and board?

If you mow your own lawn, is that income to you?

Do your children pay tithe on their "income" - the value of their share of the home, food, and clothing that comes from you? After all, they do chores, don't they?

If you paint your house, the value can go up. Oh my, guess that is also income to you. Therefore, you must tithe on that increase, right?

If you have a fruit tree, guess you have income to tithe on.

If your wife sews and makes your shirts, you have income based on the value of the finished shirt, right? Be sure to tithe on it.

See how ridiculous this is.

Did God leave the future out of His Word? Did He leave us with missing instructions? Do you tithe on gross or net income? Do you tithe on fringe benefits such as the amount your employer pays for your medical plan? You see, IF God expected man to tithe on his income, God would have given instructions for us to follow.

@Image123, How you dey  You dey unnecessarily difficult sha  Na wa for you 

Image123:

@Zikky,Hi, maybe you should go through a dictionary.

I don’t have the stamina for that. You don alredy check am na  That saves me the time of going through one. 

Image123:

@Zikky,Hi, maybe you should go through a dictionary. gary has decided to stick to his economics textbook definitions, and thinks anything outside his textbook is EXPANSION of God's Word. First to your analogy, Nestle is not an individual. the individuals working at Nestle do not consider milo as theirs. They probably wouldn't agree to be paid in Milo. They must even ask for permission before borrowing milo for themselves. The organisation doesn't function just as a department but as a team. they have marketers and sales outlet into which they invest a lot. They all share from the gains when sales are made. Of course, the milo is valuable asset to the company, but it needs to be exchanged to another value(usually monetary) before they can declare that they've arrived.

I know individuals work at Nestle, same way a farmer will employ people to work the farm. But this was not what my objective. I was hoping you would see the organization as an individual (e.g. a farmer), and see the harvest as having gone through a processing cycle that converts the seed (raw material) into the finished or final product. Like gary already mentioned, you don’t receive income twice on the same item (except you be yahoo man). The product only becomes income when you sell.

Image123:

I'm looking at Wikipedia and i see almost the same thing, you may also freely check it. I'll quote a sentence there; "Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
This are for the general public. this is what the common man views income as. 

You know what I take away from the definition above? Income must involve a counter/second party. It’s not a one way traffic. They all involve a sale (somehow). Take a second look at your post.

@Image123 uses Wikipedia for a source.

Go to Wikipedia's opening page and what do you see?

Welcome to Wikipedia,
the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.

THAT ANYONE CAN EDIT!

In other words, Wikipedia is a compilation of articles written by anyone whether they know what they are writing about or not.

Many say that in Biblical times they didn’t have money and that the economy was based on bartering of goods and services. That is not so. The Bible shows they not only had money, but that money was used as a common way of doing business.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few examples from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY ABRAHAM - Genesis 23:15-16

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY JACOB - Genesis 33:19

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES - Genesis 37:28

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM - Leviticus 5:15

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES: Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:7-8, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13, Malachi 3:5, etc.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today’s society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is here in Genesis 23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, …

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God’s people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money’s place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

@zikky

I know individuals work at Nestle, same way a farmer will employ people to work the farm. But this was not what my objective. I was hoping you would see the organization as an individual (e.g. a farmer), and see the harvest as having gone through a processing cycle that converts the seed (raw material) into the finished or final product. Like gary already mentioned, you don’t receive income twice on the same item (except you be yahoo man). The product only becomes income when you sell.

What more can i say? The point is so close, yet so different. the issue of the 'income talk' is that gary claims that the harvest of the israelites is not income, my claim is it's income. i see your point about the harvest going through a processing cycle of conversion. It's the same process for the farmer, his seeds go through a processing cycle to become crops. It's the same thing. A hundred processings, the final product is still income. It's merely gone through an exchange of values. He's not receiving income twice on it, he's only converting. One man's income may be another's raw material. Your final product/your goal is the income.

"Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
Income must involve a counter/second party. It’s not a one way traffic. They all involve a sale (somehow). Take a second look at your post.

And what happened to the other definition i posted? i could defend this, but it seems you'll simply look for seeming faults and leave other real issues.

Let even assume that this is income (which of course is not true, but let just assume), the business man then must tithe from what his business generates and not his profit as some people believes.

It's not compulsory to tithe from the exact thing that your business generates. You're missing the spirit/goal/point why God told the people to give a tithe to the levites. The reason for the tithe was that there may be meat i.e that the levites might be provided/catered for. It's the same spirit in which we're to cater for God's ministers today. When you talk of wealth in Bible days, it could easily be associated with how much food you've got, consider for instance the rich man in Luke

Luke 12:19  And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
His bank was his storehouse full of crops. Today, more focus is on money in our society. Money is what will get you anything today, as it were. Even a beggar would prefer you give him money than food, that's the world of today. How you'll take care of ministers today without money beats my imagination. And if you're still feel to bring crops for your tithe, i don't think it will be rejected. That will be legalistic and immature though IMO.

I see a bit more complexity in the tithe of the flocks. It says every tenth animal that passes under the rod is holy unto the Lord. What I see here is that you can tithe from your flock year after year even if there were no new additions in the year. The tithe was not from the additions to your assets. The fact that the tithe is the tenth animal means you don’t tithe if you have just nine. So you see not everything is tithe-able

You don't read one verse of scripture and run with it. the Israelites knew that the tithe was of their increase. There was no complexity in it, they understood it even though they didn't go to university like us.
Deuteronomy 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
And God's plan for them was fruitfulness, not barrenness. i believe i said it on this thread already that you don't tithe from losses or other people's property. You tithe on your harvest/yield/wages/profits/what comes in to you.
On the bolded in your quote, it suggests you do not understand the purpose for the command. the purpose was that instead of allowing the Israelite to choose the best or the worst animal to tithe, God made it a random picking. i.e all the animals(increase) were put into a place with a small gate, as the animals came out one by one, the tenth was chosen as tithe. You can picture it in your mind, or go to a farm, you put some chickens or goats  into a place and as they come out randomly, you pick the tenth. If the owner felt that picked animal should be changed(maybe it looks weak or sick or something), he couldn't replace it but only add the preferred substitute.

Leviticus 27:32  And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:33  He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed
That's the purpose, it's not for an excuse not to tithe. A true giver would still give something as his tithe. It's like in our today's case, maybe someone earns 74000. Now the tithe would be about 7400. If he gives 7400, he's tithed. If he decides to round it off, and give 7500 or even 8000, it's still accepted by God. that's the person who understands the spirit. But when we begin to play mathematics with God, or. we're compulsorily looking for change before we give, it's either immaturity in that understanding or carnality.

Image is not a dishonest pastor. I understand his plight. It’s not easy to accept as false, something you believed in and have been practicing for quite a while.

thanks for my defence, thou art right in the bolded, that's why i'm beginning to fall in love with you  i actually find tithing as a small issue. It surprises me myself the amount of posts i've written for it. i don't recall the last time i spoke to someone on tithe outside nl. And i'm trying also not to be too involved, but still truth is truth and we cannot do anything against it but for it. If it is this little thing that i have to defend, idefend. and if it is a weightier thing, i defend. And i'll say it again, it's not FORCE, this is a discussion forum. But what do i see, i see garyarnold who is making a career on 'fighting tithes' and i'm tempted to say like you( " it's not easy to accept as false" your dream and source of livelihood). I look at someone like KunleOshob who claims to be ordained by God to fight tithe and could be very violent against anyone on the way, and I'm tempted to think oh what a ministry. Thank God for everything all the same.

@Image123,

You have absolutely NO concept as to what God's tithe was.

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus didn’t tithe. Paul didn’t tithe. Peter didn’t tithe. No one else tithe. IT WAS THE LEVITES INHERITANCE.

How can anyone other than a Levites claim that inheritance?

You just refuse to research the history of tithing in the Christian Church or you would know that NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH TAUGHT AND COLLECTED A TITHE ON ANYONE'S INCOME UNTIL AROUND 1870. You dismiss history totally. And you STILL don't understand what INCOME means.

I have PROVEN with scripture that God NEVER intended anyone to tithe on their income, but you refuse to acknowledge that scripture.

You need to open your mind and let in the truth.

@garyarnold

in the order of Melchizedek

Actually, it is AFTER the order of Melchizedek.

This is petite, it's the same thing: In the order of OR after the order of. Stop making issues out of nothing.
Heb 6:20  On our behalf Jesus has gone in there before us and has become a high priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek. (Good News Bible)

In Hebrews 7:18 it says the command was disannulled.  That means that Numbers 18, the ordinance that established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing as its means of support was DISANNULLED, or ANNULLED.  That means it is treated as though there was never a Levitical priesthood.  It erases it.  Takes it out of the picture.

No, that's not what that scripture means. When it says 'a disannulling of the commandment', it's good to find out what commandment, for there are different commandments. Even God's words qualify as commandment going before so don't cut the wrong tree. Just in verse 16 before this passage lies your answer.
Hebrews 7:16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
The law of carnal commandment was the commandment to be done away with i.e ordinances and washings and co. Why? Because Jesus had now taken their place and was/is more effective. It's not the law of tithe(as Kunle and some sometimes mysteriously call it). there's nothing in the bible about any law of tithe. it's certainly not referring to God's law.God's law/commandment is holy and pure.
Psalm 19:7  The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8  The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9  The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
The new testament also attest to this FACT that God's law is good and holy. One needs to know which law is been spoken of as changed so as not to arrive at wrong conclusions, or contradict the bible. Because we have the law of Christ and we have the law of God and we have the law of liberty and the law of Medes and persians and so on and forth.
The major issue in Hebrews 7 isn't on tithe, i wonder why it usually comes up as scripture to attack tithe.

It diminishes what Jesus did on the cross.  It diminishes grace.  It diminishes the use of the Holy Spirit.

This is a baseless claim. how does tithing diminish grace, the Holy Spirit et al? What's this?

Now you have to understand the meaning of earnings.

here we go againnnni

Using YOUR understanding of the definition of income, if YOU build YOURSELF something, you now have income.  If you have a tree on your property I guess you think that is income to you.  If you chop down the tree, the wood would also be income to you whether you sold any of it or not.

I never said this. this is gross misunderstanding, i think/hope? If you build yourself something, you're merely converting what you have to another form. in this case, maybe money to sand. Nothing new is coming in. Like i've said earlier, you can convert your income into another form, you can also convert your 'asset' into another form.

Things of nature are not income UNLESS you sell them or trade them.  They are GIVEN TO US by God.

Everything i have is given to me by God, can you please leave me to that belief of mine? iF I'M A FARMER TODAY or a doctor, to me, all my needs are supplied by God, and i play my part by sowing. My seed may be maize, it may be hardwork, diligence, study. i believe at harvest time god will give me my wages. And as a side-note here, wages is not always money like you believe. The wages of sin is not money, but the sinner will not miss his wages. Recall Jacob and Laban in Genesis? Do you know his wages? I'll show you never mind.

Genesis 29:15  And Laban said unto Jacob, Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou therefore serve me for naught? tell me, what shall thy wages be?
Gen 29:16  And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel.
Gen 29:17  Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favored.
Gen 29:18  And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
Gen 31:8  If he said thus, The speckled shall be thy wages; then all the cattle bore speckled: and if he said thus, The ringstreaked shall be thy hire; then bore all the cattle ringstreaked.
You see Jacob's wages on this two different occasions. the moral of my story is that wages MUST not be COMPULSORY money. I guess you may want to  go into irrelevances like asking "what's the tenth of Rachel". If that's the case, then you're not learning but only seeking to win points, goodluck to you.

So tell me, Image123, IF the harvest is income, then would the sale of the harvest create additional income?

If the harvest is income, then you tithe of it and do what you like with the rest. OR you convert the whole to money by sale, and tithe of your final income. It's simply a change from one form to another. You weigh the value of one form in the rate of the other and then you convert, if you so wish. But in the OT, if you convert your food to money, then tithe of your money, then the priest will have to go and re-convert the money again to food which was what he needed. That's redundant. The priests did not need money as such/much. All their needs were already supplied. All they needed to do was concentrate and serve God acceptably. Today, it's different. There's evangelism to be done, no such thing in OT(if you think that doesn't involve money, maybe's because you don't do it). There's children to send to school, and i dunno if the school you went to collects yams as tuition, mine didn't. There's family and relative to cater for, and you need money to do that today sir/ma. There's the local church to maintain in a sense without having to tell the congregation to contribute for every single need.

I have shown that the scriptures excluded income from the tithe.  I will give it to you again:

How can that be when even the word 'income' is not in the Bible as reported by you?

Numbers 18:27 (KJV)  “And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.”

That verse is referring to the Levites who were required to tithe from the tithe they received.  If you fully understand the above verse, you will see how it PROVES, beyond any reasonable doubt, that even WAGES could NOT be tithed on.  IF wages, or income, could be tithed on, that verse means nothing.  It would just be taking up space.

So once it's not what you think, it must just be taking up space? The passage is simply proving what i'm saying

Numbers 18:26  Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:27  And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fullness of the winepress.
someone else's tithe may be your own income/harvest. It's 10% one.it's 100% to you. Then the Levites were to tithe of this and it was reckoned/considered by God to be equal to the field harvest. you see God wasn't driven by the letter of His Word but by the Spirit.

Please tell me, if all income was tithable, WHY did God limited every tenth animal to ONLY animals in herds and flocks?  Why not all animals?

Which one is this one again? Must God make a comprehensive list of every animal at every instance?
Leviticus 27:32  And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Flock and herd includes all animals that you rear, don't you know the meaning of the two words? As if He's expecting peeps like you, He adds EVEN OF WHATSOEVER that passes under the rod. Ah Ah

How is it that the Church's claim to tithes was EXTENDED in the middle of the 13th century to other animals if everything was tithable to begin with?

Maybe because the writer is ignorant or blind to the events that were the norm in bible days. Did you say 13th century? Field, Yard, Stall, Forest. Your harvest is your harvest whether you reared it in the moon or in Uranus. When one understands God and His ways, one'll not be getting ridiculous in the word. you don't need to tithe for someone else, it's an individual's choice. You don't tithe when there is no increase(which by the way is below God's will for you), you don't tithe on what you've already tithed on except you wish to, you don't make unnecessary issues and mountains out of tithe, it's wasn't meant to be a big matter.

Many say that in Biblical times they didn’t have money and that the economy was based on bartering of goods and services.  That is not so.

Can you point to the 'many' that have said this, or it's all in your imagination? I've listened to popular preachers on several occasions. I hardly hear them speak on tithes. There are many things i may disagree with them on, but they rarely make mountains of issues. It's only you that keep hearing pastors spreading the lie from the pit of hell. It's only you that keep hearing messages on tithe every sunday, and Malachi keeps ringing in your ears. Well may God help you find true peace, that's my prayer for you.

@Image123,

You are ignoring all New Testament teaching. You take scripture and make it fit your beliefs instead of starting fresh, as I did three years ago.

I will never convince you of the truth as I see it, but I believe God will reveal His truth to you in time.

I can pick just about any position I want, go to the scriptures, and make them fit my position. That is what I believe you are doing.

It was God who gave me the revelation to see the truth behind tithing.

I've said all I have to say on this blog.

May God Bless you.

Guys,
Is all this necessary? Why dabble into unnecessary 'genealogies' all because of tithe or not tithing or calculating tithing.
All I will say is that everything is to be done in faith. Give, tithe in faith; eat in faith; love your neighbour with faith as the bible says that if you give your body to be burned without love, it is a waste. So the motive is important as God searches the heart.
Tithing is not legalistic, or compulsory. It has to be done in faith.
Hence, I think we should settle this as it looks that this will lead us nowhere.
Peace!

@garyarnold
The book you mentioned is been written by baptist theologians revealing the biblical truth on tithing; when ezactly would it be published and how can we get copies in Nigeria? I would like to buy a good number of copies to distribute to friends and family who are still under this evil yoke of false tithing. I also thing the book is a very good idea as it would help set a lot of people free from bondage even though it could spoil business for the likes of image123 and uncle joe.

Image123:

@zikkyWhat more can i say? The point is so close, yet so different. the issue of the 'income talk' is that gary claims that the harvest of the israelites is not income, my claim is it's income. i see your point about the harvest going through a processing cycle of conversion. It's the same process for the farmer, his seeds go through a processing cycle to become crops. It's the same thing. A hundred processings, the final product is still income. It's merely gone through an exchange of values. He's not receiving income twice on it, he's only converting.  

I don see am say you stubborn   But I understand your position better, you believe anything a man produce is his income while disposing/exchanging that same produce for money or some other asset is simply an exchange of values. I never hear this definition before   but no wahala. I will leave you with something else to think about; what about the man that provides services selling his skills/know-how? Is the skill acquisition process also an income and the usage of that skill (exchange) for monetary returns simply an exchange of value? I don’t expect a reply, just think about it  

Image123:

And what happened to the other definition i posted? i could defend this, but it seems you'll simply look for seeming faults and leave other real issues.

No ooh   There was no intention to ignore the other definitions. There was not much difference in the definitions, that’s why I chose to review the last one. I will make the necessary corrections if that will make you happy. But my comment/response is not likely to change  

Image123:

Then to the definition of 'income'. i thought education should tell us that income is simply something that comes in, an increase. Well, since we must resort to higher authorities(books). let me quote one or two.

Income, money or other gain or return resulting from goods or services produced in a given period of time, usually measured annually. Income may be received by an individual or by an entity, such as a corporation or a government.

The various types of income are usually described within the private or the public sector of economic activity. In the private sector the four major types of income are wages, the return for labor; rent, the return for use of land; interest, the return for the use of capital; and profit, the return to the business owner. Income in the public sector, called national income, is the money measure of the annual flow of goods and services in an economy.

Income is normally measured in money terms, although nonmoney definitions are sometimes used. Real income refers not to the actual money income

Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Note the bolded.
I'm looking at Wikipedia and i see almost the same thing, you may also freely check it. I'll quote a sentence there; "Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
This are for the general public. this is what the common man views income as.

You know what I take away from the definition above? Income must involve a counter/second party. It’s not a one way traffic. They all involve a sale (somehow). Take a second look at your post  

Image123:

It's not compulsory to tithe from the exact thing that your business generates. You're missing the spirit/goal/point why God told the people to give a tithe to the levites. The reason for the tithe was that there may be meat i.e that the levites might be provided/catered for. It's the same spirit in which we're to cater for God's ministers today.

Now you are talking   If you say your giving a tenth of your salary to your pastor is motivated/driven by the spirit/goal behind the tithing activities back in the days, why we dey argue   Abeg carry go jare  

Image123:

When you talk of wealth in Bible days, it could easily be associated with how much food you've got, consider for instance the rich man in Luke

Image123:

Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

You see yourself you people like enjoyment too much That’s why pastors dey see una as maga to exploit I am sure this is one of your favorite bible verse I am sure anytime you read this bible verse, you dey imagine say you dey cool off for beach for Hawaii with some beautiful waiters attending to your every need. Your pastor don already see your weak point. Una go drop tire

Image123:

His bank was his storehouse full of crops. Today, more focus is on money in our society. Money is what will get you anything today, as it were. Even a beggar would prefer you give him money than food, that's the world of today. How you'll take care of ministers today without money beats my imagination.

No wahala, na your money

Image123:

You don't read one verse of scripture and run with it. the Israelites knew that the tithe was of their increase. There was no complexity in it, they understood it even though they didn't go to university like us.
Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

But the bible did not say ‘thou shall tithe all the increase of thy flock’, abi na me no see am?

Image123:

i believe i said it on this thread already that you don't tithe from losses or other people's property.

This na pastoral modification to biblical tithe. You must tithe your harvest even if the cost of producing the crops outweighs the value of the harvested crops.

Image123:

On the bolded in your quote, it suggests you do not understand the purpose for the command. the purpose was that instead of allowing the Israelite to choose the best or the worst animal to tithe, God made it a random picking. i.e all the animals(increase) were put into a place with a small gate, as the animals came out one by one, the tenth was chosen as tithe. You can picture it in your mind, or go to a farm, you put some chickens or goats into a place and as they come out randomly, you pick the tenth. If the owner felt that picked animal should be changed(maybe it looks weak or sick or something), he couldn't replace it but only add the preferred substitute.

So if you have eight cows how do you get to chose the tenth animal? After the eight cows come out, you put them back in the small place and let out another two? Or do you just let out two and take the second as the tenth? BTW, if you have eight cows how do arrive at a tenth? Do round up to the nearest whole number? Or you remove a leg or two from the chosen cow to obtain a more accurate result?

Image123:

A true giver would still give something as his tithe. It's like in our today's case, maybe someone earns 74000. Now the tithe would be about 7400. If he gives 7400, he's tithed. If he decides to round it off, and give 7500 or even 8000, it's still accepted by God. that's the person who understands the spirit. But when we begin to play mathematics with God, or. we're compulsorily looking for change before we give, it's either immaturity in that understanding or carnality.

If you have decided to give a tenth of your income to the church/pastor, there is nothing wrong with it. If you chose to give more (or less), there is still no wahala. God will accept any good deed, as long as it is motivated by your love for God and love for your neighbor.

garyarnold,

You should carry on sharing what you have learnt with the pastors that you have exposure to. We all know that most people will not take a position that is contrary to the one their pastor has taken, regardless of how much Bible study you use to back it up.

@KunleOshob,

The book written by Baptist theologians is:
Perspectives on Tithing: Four Views
http://www.amazon.com/Perspectives-Tithing-Views-David-Croteau/dp/0805449779/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289482778&sr=8-1

Probably the best book on the topic is:
Should the Church Teach Tithing? A Theologian's Conclusions about a Taboo Doctrine
This book is written by a former pastor who taught and collected the tithe BEFORE he went back to school to get his Ph.D. He wrote his thesis on tithing.
http://www.amazon.com/Should-Tithing-Theologians-Conclusions-Doctrine/dp/0595159788/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295974620&sr=1-2

KunleOshob:

@garyarnold
The book you mentioned is been written by baptist theologians revealing the biblical truth on tithing; when ezactly would it be published and how can we get copies in Nigeria? I would like to buy a good number of copies to distribute to friends and family who are still under this evil yoke of false tithing. I also thing the book is a very good idea as it would help set a lot of people free from bondage even though it could spoil business for the likes of image123 and uncle joe.

You can't spoil business for me so long as I'm a tither and giver. The devourer is rebuked for my sake, and money runs after me in all I lay my hand to do. From all over the world. The day you start opening your hands to give , you will begin to see what I'm talking about.

@Joagbaje,

The day you start opening your hands to give , you will begin to see what I'm talking about.

I agree.  But the Biblical tithe was a PAYMENT.  It had NOTHING to do with giving.  You can give a tenth of your income, but don't confuse that with the Biblical tithe.  You are following a man-made tithe, not the Biblical tithe.

I am surprised that people still go about in this forum babbling on the issue of tithe and tithing. Raw Biblical truth was presented on Basic truth you need to know about tithe and tithing. But those who are afraid of the truth who are confused still. goes about to confuse others on the issue tithe. May GOD HAVE MERCY.

Lets cut to the chase.

Firstly, there is no such thing as Sales Revenue. Cause all sales yield a form of revenue.

Secondly you are looking either at Gross profit/revenue or net profit /revenue.

Thirdly, your tythe is on the Gross and not net profit.

Its the same as when you pay your tythe on the pre tax income not after tax and deductions.

The bible says pay to ceaser what belongs to ceaser and to God what belongs to God.

The bible says pay to ceaser what belongs to ceaser and to God what belongs to God.

When Jesus was asked if the Hebrew law allowed for tribute to Rome (Matthew 22:17-18), He answered “Show me the tribute money. Whose image and superscription is on it?” (Matthew 22:19-20).

Matthew 22:17-21 (KJV)
17Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

What was Jesus talking about?

The answer relates to the nature of the Temple shekel and the money changers. Every Hebrew man, woman and child was required by the Old Covenant Law to pay an annual poll tax, or head tax, which was used to maintain the Temple and pay for sacrifices for the nation (Exodus 30:13).

Exodus 30:13 (KJV)
13This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.

It is extremely important to realize that the Temple shekel had only images of Temple items and Hebrew – both Holy. Roman currency was not allowed because it had the image of Caesar on it along with a Roman superscription in a pagan language.

This must also apply to our own currency. It has images of our presidents, images of buildings, images of animals and images of our nature. Shocking as it is, our money does not qualify to be used as gifts to God or the OT Temple!