shadeyinka:

Jericho was just one of the many walled city within the land of Canaan sir.

But, leaving this, let me ask you a question.

Do demons still afflict some people now and when you encounter a demonized person (if it exists), what is your solution?

Acts 16:16:
"And as we went to prayer, it happened that a certain girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by divining."

Maximus69:


As i've told you earlier, demons can't possess a person who has filled his minds with the truth of God's word {Matthew 12:43-45} that's why Jesus keep imploring his followers to fill their minds and hearts with the spirit of God.
Demons can't stay where the spirit of truth lives.
Israelites invited all those demons (fallen angels) after bringing foreign gods into the land, in the first century the Apostles often drive out the evil spirits miraculously, if you note the event at Act 16, those making gains through the demon got provoked after the ousting!

Though true Christians don't perform spectacular signs anymore, but there is no need forcing out the spirit if the possessed doesn't feel like separating from the demon.

So after the formal preaching each person will decide whether to continue listening to the things that contradicts the spirit in them, as times goes by the spirit will not feel at ease anymore if the possessed kees on feeding his minds with the spirit of truth, the spirit will leave on it's own without force!

There are lots of experiences amongst JWs where a possessed person will open up to the brothers and after praying and laying of hands, the demon will leave (if the possessed is willing to do away with the demon)

shadeyinka:

The highlight has no scriptural bases nor justification. Experience they say is the best teacher. Speak for yourself: you aren't backed up with the spirit of grace to function.
Mat 10:7-14:
"And as you go, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give. Do not provide gold nor silver, nor copper in your purses, nor a bag for [the] journey, nor two coats, nor sandals, nor staves. For the workman is worthy of his food. And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who within it is worthy. And there abide until you go away from there. And when you come into a house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."


Secondly, some kind of sicknesses are demonic in origin.
Luk 13:12,15-16:
"And when Jesus saw her, He called and said to her, Woman, you are delivered from your infirmity. … And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or ass from the stall and lead [it] away, to give [it] drink? And ought not this [woman], being a daughter of Abraham whom Satan has bound, lo these eighteen years, be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath day?"

Luk 13:11:
"And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and she was bowed together and was not able to be completely erect."

So, this kind of woman will be healed when they listen to your preachings?

Maximus69:


Miracles performed by first century Christians has a purpose, it's little examples of what God's Kingdom will accomplish on a grand scale!

True Christians today do not perform miracles in that way again, remember that there are many spirits possessing people, it's just the works of those spirits that's evident later in people {Galatians 5:19-21} but when those who can see the fruitage of God's holy spirit amongst true Christians today wants to become members of the happy family, they need to do away with those demonic spirits, it's the teachings that will compel them to take bold steps and God's Holy Spirit will help them to get rid of the demons! Act 19:18-20

shadeyinka:

@highlight
You are just repeating what you want to believe because you have zero experience with God using you in such respect. Speak just for yourself as experience is the best teacher even with things relating to obedience to the word and of the spirit.

Specifically, I have highlighted an example involving spirit of infirmity. You are saying when they (a person with spirit of infirmity) begin to imbibe your teachings, they will get well from their physical illness. Is this correct?

Maximus69:


Take note that i often add the adjective "true" whenever i mention "Christians", well it's because i believe only in one source of divine guidance!

Maximus69:


There is no time infirmities will end on planet earth until God's Kingdom comes, so Jesus only performed miracles to show what he will do on a grand scale when he becomes King during his 1,000 years reign, his followers performed the same to debunk the rumours the Pharisees were spreading against Jesus, so when his followers began performing the same signs in his name many began putting faith in him!

But as for what will happen later, Apostles Paul made it clear to Christians in Corinth that all those signs and wonders will later seize {1Corinthians 13:8-10} because they're just signs indicating the birth of a new born child (Christianity) showing that a new covenant has been sealed in heaven, so whoever wants to be saved must live Judaism and join Christianity, the new covenant!

shadeyinka:

I think you had better said that true JWs do not perform signs nor miracles again: and you'll be perfectly correct.

Your initial assertion is similar to when a Muslim say "we worship the God of Abraham!". Is Allah the same as Jehovah!?

Certainly not. Hence the initial assertion of the Muslim is wrong.



1. Jesus performed miracles
2. He gave his disciples the power to perform miracles
3. Even people who were not direct disciples performed miracles in the Name of Christ
4. Jesus gave us the modus operandi for preaching the word of God and it includes healing the sick and casting out demons.
5. God has given every Christian a spiritual gift for the building up of the church.
6. The scriptures give the method to deal with the sick in the church
Jam 5:14-15:
"Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will cure the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him."

Why pray for the sick when you expect no intervention by God?

Your misquoted scripture:
1Cor 13:8-10:
"Charity never fails. But if [there are] prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues , they shall cease; if knowledge , it will be abolished. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect thing comes , then that which is in part will be caused to cease."

Has knowledge also ceased?

Maximus69:


You know me long before now that the only phrase i hate and i will never utter to you is "you are wrong", please just present your views and leave the rest for everyone to decide who is right or wrong!

Knowledge surely will seize! but you only need to know the type of knowledge that will seize!
There will be a time when the knowledge to interpret prophecies accurately will seize! So by that time what will help Christians to continue in the faith? LOVE for Jehovah the God of LOVE! 1Corinthians 13:13

Remember that the ability to speak convincingly is a GIFT, the ability to last long in the field ministry is a GIFT, the ability to learn a language fast is a GIFT, having a charming smile that could call the attention of someone to listen to the good news is a GIFT, all these GIFTS will remain active amongst Christians during the end time. But the GIFTS that will seize is what Paul mentioned the supernatural GIFTS to do things that's spectacular!

shadeyinka:

My experience in Christ is very different from yours. He had backed me up several times that I know for certain that miracles and deliverance is the bread of Christ's own children. I rejoice not that demons are subject to me but that my name is written in the book of life.

@highlight.
You mean knowledge had toselectively seize 2000 years after miracles have stopped happening.

You didn't answer my question:
Why should we pray for healing when we are not expecting Gods intervention?

Maximus69:


Sickness is part of the consequences of sin that we humans inherited from Adam, God may intervene in some cases but in other cases it may be the power beyond what is normal to live with a terminal illness and endure that God's holy spirit gives us {2Corinthians 12:7-9; 1Timothy 5:23} which ever way he decides to intervene we love him for we know he is faithful and true, when his Kingdom come {Matthew 6:10} all the troubles that came along with Adamic sin will be gone for good! Revelations 21:3-5

shadeyinka:

But haven't you evaded the questions I served you? I didn't ask about the source of sickness through Adam

I said:
1. In the event that a person is bound in sickness as a result of demonic influence: what do you advocate? And your response was that he should come to your church to listen to your teachings. Do you think this will heal the demonized sick person?

2. You mean knowledge had to selectively seize operating 2000 years after miracles have stopped happening? Is knowledge not still operating?

3. Why should we pray for healing when we are not expecting Gods intervention?
I will appreciate if you itemize your answers for clarity sake.
Thanks

Maximus69:

Demonized persons are individuals with items belonging to demons, that's why those fallen angels could possess them. So such a person needs to get rid of the things belonging to demons then pray for God's holy spirit (which presence) will drive away the demons {2Corinthians 6:14}. Where we differ in belief is you're contemplating miraculous healing but i'm not!

Maximus69:

The GIFT of knowledge to interpret prophecies accurately will seize, but knowledge about the truth on how we will continue worshiping God acceptably will continue, that's why we need to identify the GROUP Jesus is using to dish out the spiritual nourishment today! Matthew 7:20, 24:45

Maximus69:

True Christians don't pray for healing now Sir, we are praying for God's Kingdom to come {Matthew 6:10} when no one will say "i am sick" again {Isaiah 33:24} by then God as in our God will bless us all {Psalms 67:6-7} by then even before we pray he will answer to satisfy our needs! Isaiah 65:24

God bless you Sir!

shadeyinka:

Is the bolded the full truth (by the scriptures) and is it validated by your experience?
Your assertion is contrary to what we see in the cause of evangelism and ministration. There are infirmities with no apparent cause initiated by either the person or his parent.
John 9:2:
"And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

From the command of Christ Himself, He never gave any indications of the ministry gifts ceasing
Mat 10:8,14:
"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give. … And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

Is it because anyone can preach the word given enough tutorial but ministering in God's power is only by Faith in Christ is authorised!?


"Knowledge to interpret scriptures!"?

1Cor 13:8:
"Charity never fails. But if [there are] prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished."

Where does the Bible say miracles or the gifts of the Spirit will cease to exist?

And doesn't your doctrine contradict
Mat 17:20:
"And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief. For truly I say to you, If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Move from here to there. And it shall move. And nothing shall be impossible to you."


Doesn't your doctrine also contradict
1Cor 12:28:
"And God set some in the church , firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages."



If you claim Christians don't pray for healing, doesn't this contradict

Jam 5:14-15:
"Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him , anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will cure the sick , and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him."

Jam 5:13:
"Is any among you afflicted ? Let him pray . Is any cheerful? Let him sing psalms."

Maximus69:


[1] I told you from the beginning that we all inherited sin from Adam, that's the cause of all the problems facing mankind! Romans 3:23, 5:12

So the blind man was born that way because he was conceived in corruption (sin) when God finished his creative works everything was perfect before Adam sinned! Genesis 1:31

[2] The knowledge Apostle Paul was talking about is that of perfect interpretation of prophecies, God has revealed everything in the Bible but if Christians who are humans should be given the knowledge to interpret all perfectly then it will be difficult to distinguish those who truly love God from unbelievers. Take for instance if JWs keep interpreting the end time prophecies accurately who will doubt them?

[3]James was talking about spiritual sickness not physical, that's why he concluded by saying "if the person has committed a sin", if a JW is not reading, studying, meditating, praying, attending meetings, preaching and teaching as required by Jesus, it's a common believe within our midst that he/she is sick spiritually speaking, so it might mean that such a person has committed or has been lured into continuous wrongdoings which is now disturbing his Christian trained conscience so he needs the help of his mature brothers to assist him in prayer!

shadeyinka:

On 1:
Meaning that those who are healthy are not carrying curses due to the sin of Adam.
Jesus said: it didn't happen because of the sins of his parents...but that God's name be glorified
John 9:3:
"Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him."

On 2:
I asked for scriptures to validate that "knowledge" means "perfect interpretation of prophecies"?

Do you know that Your claim here also invalidate every gift of the Spirit?

1Cor 12:8-11:
"For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom ; and to another a word of knowledge , according to the same Spirit; and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; and to another workings of powers , to another prophecy ; and to another discerning of spirits ; and to another kinds of tongues ; and to another the interpretation of tongues . But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires."

Are all these gifts and others truely ceased according to your doctrine?

On 3:
Maximus!
Spiritual Sickness!!!!!?
I am in awe!
Jam 5:14-15:
"Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will cure the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him."

Do you actually follow this protocol when someone is "spirituality sick" in your organisation?

Maximus69:

In as much as i hate using questions to answer questions, but it seems that's what will work here.
Please we know that Jesus raise the dead, cleansed the lepers and heal all manners of sickness, and those whom Jesus healed later got sick and eventually died again. But what is the root cause of sickness, oldage and death?

Maximus69:

Apostle Paul listed the GIFTS that will seize in the Bible book of Corinthians 13, so if there is any GIFT of the Spirit that he didn't mention, it's believed that such a GIFT will continue to work amongst true believers!

Maximus69:

Physical infirmities are treated in the hospitals, that's why there were doctors like Luke amongst the Christians, remember that Apostle Paul prescribed some medication for Timothy's infirmity {1Timothy 5:23} so they know what to do when someone is physically sick they don't just expect miracles to happen each time they're sick!
So James was talking about spiritual sickness which i've explained and that's the protocol we all follow globally, if i should leave Nigeria now and travel to India, my Christian brothers there will never think of applying what is not part of our teachings if they notice that i'm sick spiritually speaking, they will follow the same protocol, that is what Paul meant by the same line of thought! Romans 15:5-6, 1Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 4:3; Philippians 2:2

God bless you!

shadeyinka:

No one has despites that sin, sickness, death and evils in the world were introduced to the world through the sin of Adam and Eve.

We know that several things can make a person sick
1. Inheritance (Genetic or Spiritual)
2. Unhealthy habits (rating saturated fats, smoking, drinking alcohol, sedentary lifestyle etc)
3. Injesting Poison
4. Judgement from the Lord (from eating the communion unworthily, etc)
5. Demonic activities
6. Infections (cough, siphillis, COVID-19)
7. Undetermined causes

Jesus understood the disciples question "who sinned?": That was why He didn't say "Adam and Eve", for the disciples were looking for specifics as I have listed it above.

In other words, some gifts has not ceased operation such as

Word of wisdom
Faith
Gifts of Healing.
Working of Powers
Do you agree with this list as Paul didn't mention them?


1Cor 12:8-11:
"For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom ; and to another a word of knowledge , according to the same Spirit; and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; and to another workings of powers , to another prophecy ; and to another discerning of spirits ; and to another kinds of tongues ; and to another the interpretation of tongues . But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires."

Knowing that diseases can be caused by several factors,

Can physical infirmities caused directly by demons be cured in the hospitals?

Aren't you trying hard to justify why God doesn't operate through you as an organisation?

Maximus69:

All what you listed up here were the consequences of Adamic sin, we wouldn't have needed a Saviour if there was no sin Sir, and sin came in through one man 'Adam'! So if not for sin there can't be anything like sickness at all!

Maximus69:

All these GIFTS came along with Christianity but some will persist while others will seize, that's why the same Apostle Paul himself emphasized the ones that will no more continue amongst the Christians in the Bible book of 1Corinthians 13, just read carefully what he said there to know the GIFTS that will no longer be in operation amongst true Christians.

Maximus69:

All human problems came in through Adamic sin, and that's how Mankind will continue to live with the consequences until God's Kingdom come!

As for God's Holy Spirit operating with any group, Jesus said "by their FRUIT you will know them" {Matthew 7:20} note that Jesus never said "by their GIFTS"
The reason is because a tree (like Jesus who is the vine planted directly by God){John 15:1} may have so many GIFTS, that's how all the religions in the world also have similar GIFTS, please read carefully through Paul's letter again and think if those GIFTS are not in most of the religions in the world.
But the FRUIT is unique, only a specific tree can bear mango, no other tree can produce Apple if not an Apple tree.
So the FRUIT of God's Holy Spirit is what Jesus asked us to ascertain in order to IDENTIFY pure worship.
If your religion can't bear these qualities found in the FRUIT of God's Holy Spirit ~ LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GOODNESS, GENTLENESS, FAITH, MILDNESS and SELF-CONTROL {Galatians 5:22-23} All those GIFTS amounts to nothing because the GIFTS are evident in all other religions, it's this FRUIT that they can never produce! Matthew 7:16-18

God bless you Sir!

shadeyinka:

Aren't you being evasive. It's like an armed robber caught in action saying: "It's not me...,It's the devil"!

Do people have certain kind of illnesses as a result of a cause?
Yes!

I should not blame Adam and Eve if I contracted Gonoroea from a prostitute. Do you feel it's okay for me to leave the direct cause and focus on Adam and Eve?

Don't you agree that I can only have sickle cell anaemia if my parent have the S gene?

The same reason why Jesus didn't respond to the question of who sinned with Adam and Eve. Except you claim to know more than Jesus


Aren't you being evasive!?

Which one of the following ha ceased operation?
Word of wisdom
Faith
Gifts of Healing.
Working of Powers
Do you agree with this list (still operational) as Paul didn't mention them?


I'm sure you know that there is a difference between the gifts and the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that the fruit is more important. However, that isn't the point of discuss now. We are discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The question was:
Can illnesses caused directly by demons be cured in the hospitals?

Not about the Fruit of the Spirit!

shadeyinka:

Aren't you being evasive. It's like an armed robber caught in action saying: "It's not me...,It's the devil"!
Do people have certain kind of illnesses as a result of a cause?
Yes!
I should not blame Adam and Eve if I contracted Gonoroea from a prostitute. Do you feel it's okay for me to leave the direct cause and focus on Adam and Eve?
Don't you agree that I can only have sickle cell anaemia if my parent have the S gene?
The same reason why Jesus didn't respond to the question of who sinned with Adam and Eve. Except you claim to know more than Jesus

Aren't you being evasive!?
Which one of the following ha ceased operation?
Word of wisdom
Faith
Gifts of Healing.
Working of Powers
Do you agree with this list (still operational) as Paul didn't mention them?

I'm sure you know that there is a difference between the gifts and the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that the fruit is more important. However, that isn't the point of discuss now. We are discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The question was:
Can illnesses caused directly by demons be cured in the hospitals?
Not about the Fruit of the Spirit!

Maximus69:

Demonized persons are individuals with items belonging to demons,

So such a person needs to get rid of the things belonging to demons then pray for God's holy spirit (which presence) will drive away the demons

True Christians don't pray for healing now Sir, we are praying for God's Kingdom to come {Matthew 6:10} when no one will say "i am sick" again {Isaiah 33:24} by then God as in our God will bless us all {Psalms 67:6-7} by then even before we pray he will answer to satisfy our needs! Isaiah 65:24

petra1:

How did they get the items belonging to demons What of a little child who is afflicted? What did the child collect from demons
{2Corinthians 6:14}. Where we differ in belief is you're contemplating miraculous healing but i'm not! :
Its not true oh. The kingdom of God is here. Healing and divine health will always be part of it . Even in the new earth.
Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Maximus69:


Go and apply it the way you understand, i'm applying the way i understand Sir!

petra1:


>

Maximus69:

You're just amusing me!
God gave Adam and Eve just one rule "don't eat the FRUIT from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" {Genesis 2:17} it's inside that FRUIT that all other sin comes from, just remain obedient to God and you're above sin! But since we inherited sin already, the effect will be there until God's Kingdom come!

Maximus69:

That's why i keep emphasizing on the GROUP that is practicing Christianity in the right sence, if you are in their midst they will teach you how to apply all these practically.
You're a member of ECWA Church so why not go and apply all these the way the ECWA Church taught you?

Maximus69:

I've told you what true Christians believe on this so present what ECWA Church believe on this or what you believe and how you will apply it.

petra1:


You have said it all. Firstly most ailment are demonic. Demonic activity never have and end. Until the restitution of all things .
The first instruction chridt gave the church is to cadt out devils

shadeyinka:

In other words, we can absolve ourselves from our negative activities simply by pointing accusing fingers on Adam and Eve

I emphasize what the Bible teaches. Any man made doctrine hold no water and should be discarded

True Christians have the Bible alone as their written authority.
You have told me what JWs believe which is contrary to the written word of God ; the Bible.
BTW, ECWA believe exactly what the Bible teaches. We don't uphold any man/organisation made doctrine over the scriptures.

Maximus69:

Sickness came in through Adamic Sin, and demons seized the opportunity to afflict humans due to sin, if not for sin no angel demon had the right to touch us talkless inflicting us with sickness. So without sin there is no reason discussing these!

Maximus69:

You're insisting on what religionsists want God to do that's why there is no religion perfectly applying what you're saying, sickness is everywhere and no religion is free of sickness physical or spiritual.

Keep making use of your application of those words, JWs have our application of the words, it's left to where the application is yielding positivity amongst adherents, as for JWs we are concerned with the FRUIT of God's holy spirit!

Maximus69:

Keep making use of your application of those words, JWs have our application of the words, it's left to where the application is yielding positivity amongst adherents, as for JWs we are concerned with the FRUIT of God's holy spirit!

petra1:


Yes pre Adamite men . Thats why God told Adam to replenish the earth . Replenish mean fill it up again .

The earth became void and empty at the destruction .

Jeremiah 4:23-26
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
and all the cities thereof were broken down
at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

shadeyinka:

In other words, apart from blaming Adam and Eve, we have demons, sin, inheritances, improper hygiene etc as direct cause for diseases in men.

If a person has sickness due to plasmodium parasite, we'll say, go to the hospital.
If a person has behavioural problems, we'll say go to the church.
However, when a person has migraine induced by demons, what would be your solution? Hospital?

Jesus didn't promise to heal all Christians all the time; as there is a place for medications. Healings for your information occur more either in the cause of evangelism or when there exist no physical intervention.

Religionists are those who rate man made doctrines over the scriptures. We know them because of their apparent spiritual blindness. They can see only what they are told to see.

petra1:


I didn’t know you’re JW. I would have taken a different approach . But can I ask . Are JW Christians ?