gregyboy:
Lol, my brains am not using is still what i used to flog you and your brothers

Flog?? ... Where?? ... Does flog now have a different meaning??

Ooh... You want to deny it, you weren't told most tines you spoke rubbish

Stop clutching at straws, and provide the evidence comparable to when your brother, Prolog noted that you lack the ability to use your brain.

My question still stands: Name me one person on the whole of Nairaland who thinks you are mentally fit.

TAO11:
Flog?? ... Where?? ... Does flog now have a different meaning??


Stop clutching at straws, and provide the evidence comparable to when your brother, Prolog noted that you lack the ability to use your brain.

My question still stands: Name me one person on the whole of Nairaland who thinks you are mentally fit.

No ones ever think you're sane most especially your brothers, on how you keep sticking your head out for flogging is what marvels them the most, most times dey don't even give you likes for it, just to tell you, you're completely saying rubbish


I have succeeded beating you black and blue

My new purpose is to scatter the entire yoruba people starting from nairaland
I have already scattered you longtime ago na d rest remain

gregyboy:
No ones ever think you're sane most especially your brothers, on how you keep sticking your head out for flogging is what marvels them the most, most times dey don't even give you likes for it, just to tell you, you're completely saying rubbish


I have succeeded beating you black and blue

My new purpose is to scatter the entire yoruba people starting from nairaland
I have already scattered you longtime ago na d rest remain

Thank you for subtly admitting that not one person on Nairaland thinks you’re mentally fit.
.
.
.
Well, regarding your lies about my brothers and what they think, babtoundey begs to differ just like all of my brothers.

MelesZenawi:
Yorubas and Bini are same people. So it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Igbos and Igala are same people. So it shouldn't come as a surprise.

sesan85:
Igbos and Igala are same people. So it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Lolzzz


Yawns..

TAO11:
More like you prefer being flogged by Tao.

Stop “famzing” me to give yourself some validation.

You still remain very insecure and ignorant despite the years of flogging.

cc: Mraphel

TAO11 how do you manage to keep replying Gregboy ?
He can spend an entire month arguing to prove a fabricated lie.
Even when he is shown overwhelming evidence he still continues to argue and deceive himself often shooting himself in the foot with evidence that proves him wrong.
I once had to prove to him the Oba of Benin was the son of the Ooni of Ife and by page 56 I believed I had proven the case and left.
When I checked the thread a month later he was still arguing it on page 110 of the same thread.

Christistruth00:

TAO11 how do you manage to keep replying Gregboy ?
He can spend an entire month arguing to prove a fabricated lie.
Even when he is shown overwhelming evidence he still continues to argue and deceive himself often shooting himself in the foot with evidence that proves him wrong.
I once had to prove to him the Oba of Benin was the son of the Ooni of Ife and by page 56 I believed I had proven the case and left.
When I checked the thread a month later he was still arguing it on page 110 of the same thread.

I basically use him for entertainment sometimes — when there isn’t much else to do.

At other times I just choose to disgrace him and rub it on his face publicly — by so doing I make him popular as a renowned liar, thus making him irrelevant.

I have pretty much since achieved that. This days folks just ‘hiss’ when they see his insecurity-filled lies/threads.

I can categorically confirm to you that virtually everyone (including his own people) have basically stamped him as a nuisance.

The sad part for him in all this is that his picture was on his profile sometimes last year — the joke would be recognized even outside Nairaland.

Christistruth00:


TAO11 how do you manage to keep replying Gregboy ?
He can spend an entire month arguing to prove a fabricated lie.
Even when he is shown overwhelming evidence he still continues to argue and deceive himself often shooting himself in the foot with evidence that proves him wrong.
I once had to prove to him the Oba of Benin was the son of the Ooni of Ife and by page 56 I believed I had proven the case and left.
When I checked the thread a month later he was still arguing it on page 110 of the same thread.

TAO11:
I basically use him for entertainment sometimes — when there isn’t much else to do.

At other times I just choose to disgrace him and rub it on his face publicly — by so doing I make him popular as a renowned liar, thus making him irrelevant.

I have pretty much since achieved that. This days folks just ‘hiss’ when they see his insecurity-filled lies/threads.

I can categorically confirm to you that virtually everyone (including his own people) have basically stamped him as a nuisance.

The sad part for him in all this is that his picture was on his profile sometimes last year — the joke would be recognized even outside Nairaland.

gregyboy:
Do you know that, the sculpture up there is not oromiyan, the sculpture was made in the 16c years afterthe myth of oromiyan arrival to benin


It is a fact benin sculpurist dont makes sculpture for past event on a present time, they make the sculptures immediately the event happens to keep date, and serves as document

Again ife never used horse only oyo, oyo began using horse after the rise of the said mythical empire in 16ad, which was brought by the fulanis

So oromiyan coming from ife with horse, is lie coming from devils mouth....


Again that guy on the horse is an igala warrior after the benin and igala war the oba commanded sculpurist to document it with art, the art was found in the benin ancestoral alter to celebrate the defeat of igala by benins


So that article you posted is all shades of wrong


Do you know why you guys always flop, because you all never researched the history you are arguing on, so you all keep matching lines


My next quest is to burst ife myth open and destroy d bond that keeps yorubas together

That Edo story was narrated to the BBC by the Edos still u saw myths in the articles.
How on earth can Oranmiyan a prince walk from Ife to Igodomigodo without a horse.?
The early Yorubas sold several horses to many tribes including the Fulani tribes only that the Fulani retained it longer than everyone.

Mraphel:

That Edo story was narrated to the BBC by the Edos still u saw myths in the articles.
How on earth can Oranmiyan a prince walk from Ife to Igodomigodo without a horse.?
The early Yorubas sold several horses to many tribes including the Fulani tribes only that the Fulani retained it longer than everyone.

Did you do Geography and how vegetation affects animals

RedboneSmith please i know you're igbo but help me explain to him

Mraphel:

That Edo story was narrated to the BBC by the Edos still u saw myths in the articles.
How on earth can Oranmiyan a prince walk from Ife to Igodomigodo without a horse.?
The early Yorubas sold several horses to many tribes including the Fulani tribes only that the Fulani retained it longer than everyone.

Am coming for your head tomorrow hide it, ir else.....


If i burst your bubbles woukd you offer me your nunu for my compensation... Lol


Your head tomorrow,

gregyboy:
Am coming for your head tomorrow hide it, ir else.....

If i burst your bubbles woukd you offer me your nunu for my compensation... Lol

Your head tomorrow,

And I’d be right behind you to knock you to death and snatch sleep from you as always.

I will snatch sleep from your eyes as always and give you something else in return. Guess what it is:






































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































TEARS

cc: Mraphel

Mraphel:

That Edo story was narrated to the BBC by the Edos still u saw myths in the articles.
How on earth can Oranmiyan a prince walk from Ife to Igodomigodo without a horse.?
The early Yorubas sold several horses to many tribes including the Fulani tribes only that the Fulani retained it longer than everyone.

Yorubas sold horses to the Fulani? Wait, are you joking?

RedboneSmith:

Yorubas sold horses to the Fulani? Wait, are you joking?

To say that horses were supplied from the south northward is obviously exaggerated and ought rightly inaccurate.

But to maintain that horses weren’t used in the south (in this case early Oyo and in ancient Ife particularly) will be nothing short of perverse.

I believe Mraphel was getting at the specific point that Ife (or Oyo) made uses of horses early in their respective histories despite the terrain.

But there is obviously no need to exaggerate them as the sources of supply for the north.

TAO11:
To say that horses were supplied from the south northward is obviously exaggerated and ought rightly inaccurate.

But to maintain that horses weren’t used in the south (in this case early Oyo and in ancient Ife particularly) will be nothing short of perverse.

I believe Mraphel was getting at the specific point that Ife (or Oyo) made uses of horses early in their respective histories despite the terrain.

But there is obviously no need to exaggerate them as the sources of supply for the north.

I agree that the use of horses did penetrate into forested areas. After all, there's a 9th century bronze figure of a mounted horseman from Igbo-Ukwu deep in the southern Nigerian forest. If horses were present there that early there's no reason to doubt that they were also present in Ife and surrounding areas at a similar date. In any case, oral tradition does associate Oranmyian with a horse.

However, outside Oyo (which is largely savanna country), it doesn't seem that equestrian culture developed to a high degree anywhere in Southern Nigeria. People in the south largely owned horses as a prestige symbol, rather than as a legit means of transportation or as part of military technology. I have read in one of the papers of Prof Robin Law that horsemanship was so poorly understood in Benin, that when the oba was on horseback two slaves had to walk on either side of the horse with him to keep him from falling off. Even the Oyo, who mastered horsemanship better than their southern neighbours still employed Hausa slaves to train and care for the horses, as they understood horses better than southerners.

That said, it wouldn't have been out of place for a prince going to Benin from Ife to have done the journey on foot, as that remained the chief means of transportation for both highborn and lowborn in forested areas, despite the elite being acquainted with horses.

RedboneSmith:
I agree that the use of horses did penetrate into forested areas. After all, there's a 9th century bronze figure of a mounted horseman from Igbo-Ukwu deep in the southern Nigerian forest. If horses were present there that early there's no reason to doubt that they were also present in Ife and surrounding areas at a similar date. In any case, oral tradition does associate Oranmyian with a horse.

However, outside Oyo (which is largely savanna country), it doesn't seem that equestrian culture developed to a high degree anywhere in Southern Nigeria. People in the south largely owned horses as a prestige symbol, rather than as a legit means of transportation or as part of military technology. I have read in one of the papers of Prof Robin Law that horsemanship was so poorly understood in Benin, that when the oba was on horseback two slaves had to walk on either side of the horse with him to keep him from falling off. Even the Oyo, who mastered horsemanship better than their southern neighbours still employed Hausa slaves to train and care for the horses, as they understood horses better than southerners.

That said, it wouldn't have been out of place for a prince going to Benin from Ife to have done the journey on foot, as that remained the chief means of transportation for both highborn and lowborn in forested areas, despite the elite being acquainted with horses.

It appears we’re both heading along the same lines to the effect that horses were clearly in use (although in rare use) in the southern Nigeria forest region from early times.

Many scattered pieces of evidence now strongly indicate that. And one such evidence which I was certainly going to bring up (thanks for suggesting it) is from the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works.

However, I wouldn’t be quick to label it as a 9th century work since many subsequent scholarly disclaimers now undermine those early radio-carbon dates submitted by Thurstan Shaw.

The contemporary scholarly consensus (including Thurstan Shaw’s himself), however, now appears to be in favour of a much later date. But this is not the specific point I intend to discuss here — at least not now.

Moreover, I am not aware of any such ”bronze figure of a mounted horseman from Igbo-Ukwu” to be honest. Can you please direct me to one such work from the Igbo-Ukwu corpus?

What I am aware of instead is the presence of a horse’s head as a motif among the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works, and this clearly is an indication of the early use of horses (of course rare use considering tsetse fly) in the southern Nigeria forest region.

In addition to the Igbo-Ukwu horse’s head motif‘, there are a body of other evidence which strongly point to the use of horses in the southern Nigeria forest region — particularly as early as the 10th century.

One of such evidence is found in the body of strongly held ancient Yoruba traditions one of which makes mention of horses in at least one verse of Odu-Ifa.

Also, a strongly held body of Ife royal traditions is unambiguous in its description of the significant part horses played (not merely as a prestigious royal possession) but particularly in Ife’s trade during Oduduwa’s reign — that is, c. 900 A.D./c. 1000 A.D.

In fact, Ife appears to have, for some time, had an early monopoly of horse trade in Yorubaland. This would appear to account for the southern Ekiti proverb which states that he who desires to own a horse must buy one from heaven through Ife.

Moreover, it is also known that some very ancient shrines in parts of Yorubaland (including Ife itself) feature sculptures of deities riding on horse back.


In conclusion:

What appears palpably perceptible from the foregoing body of evidence (especially those which shows that horses were the prized possessions of the early Ife royal court, as well as a key part of early Ife’s long distance fleet) is that your conclusion that Oranmiyan (a prince of the prestigious Ife’s royal court) would have left Ife for distant Benin (on the authority of the Ife king and as a prince of the royal court) bare footed is far-fetched and extremely unlikely to say the least.

What appears most likely then on the other hand (in the light of the available body of evidence) is that he embarked on the long trip to Benin obviously with the permission of the Ooni, and as such with a full royal assemblage which included horses.

This conclusion moreover — unlike its opposite — has a scholarly support as may be seen in the conclusion of Paula Ben-Amos Girshick.

———————
PS: The attached screenshot below shows an Ife terra-cotta figure of a horse’s head and an Ife bronze figure of a mounted horseman.

Screenshots taken from S. P. Blier 2015, pp. 315-316.

TAO11:
It appears we’re to both heading along the same lines to the effect that horses were clearly in use (although in rare use) in the southern Nigeria forest region from early times.

Many scattered pieces of evidence now strongly indicate that. And one such evidence which I was certainly going to bring up (thanks for suggesting it) is from the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works.

However, I wouldn’t be quick to label it as a 9th century work since many subsequent scholarly disclaimers now undermine those early radio-carbon dates submitted by Thurstan Shaw.

The contemporary scholarly consensus (including Thurstan Shaw’s himself), however, now appears to be in favour of a much later date. But this is not the specific point I intend to discuss here — at least not now.

Moreover, I am not aware of any such ”bronze figure of a mounted horseman from Igbo-Ukwu” to be honest. Can you please direct me to one such work from the Igbo-Ukwu corpus?

What I am aware of instead is the presence of a horse’s head as a motif among the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works, and this clearly is an indication of the early use of horses (of course rare use considering tsetse fly) in the southern Nigeria forest region.

In addition to the Igbo-Ukwu horse’s head motif‘, there are a body of other evidence which strongly point to the use of horses in the southern Nigeria forest region — particularly as early as the 10th century.

One of such evidence is found the body of strongly held ancient Yoruba traditions one of which makes mention of horses in at least one verse of Odu-Ifa.

Also, a strongly held body of Ife royal traditions is unambiguous in its description of the significant part horses played (not merely as a prestigious royal possession) but particularly in Ife’s trade during Oduduwa’s reign — that is, c. 900 A.D./c. 1000 A.D.

In fact, Ife appears to have, for some time, had an early monopoly of horse trade in Yorubaland. This would appear to account for the southern Ekiti proverb which states that he who desires to own a horse must buy one from heaven through Ife.

Moreover, it is also known that some very ancient shrines in parts of Yorubaland (including Ife itself) feature sculptures of deities riding on horse back.


In conclusion:

What appears palpably perceptible from the foregoing body of evidence (especially those which shows that horses were the prized possessions of the early Ife royal court, as well as a key part of early Ife’s long distance fleet) is that your conclusion that Oranmiyan (a prince of the prestigious Ife’s royal court) would have left Ife for distant Benin (on the authority of the Ife king and as a prince of the royal court) bare footed is far-fetched and extremely unlikely to say the least.

What appears most likely then on the other hand (in the light of the available body of evidence) is that he embarked on the long trip to Benin obviously with the permission of the Ooni, and as such with a full royal assemblage which included horses.

This conclusion moreover — unlike its opposite — has a scholarly support as may be seen in the conclusion of Paula Ben-Amos Girshick.

I'm interested in being shown studies that discredited Shaw's 9th century dates for Igbo-Ukwu. I'm aware that Babatunde Lawal raised skepticism about the dates back in the 1970s, but Thurstan Shaw published rebuttals in which he defended the dates. Since then (as far as I know) the dates have gone largely unchallenged.

If there are other published papers discrediting the dates that I'm unaware of, I'd like to see them.

Oh, about the Igbo Ukwu mounted horseman.

TAO11:
It appears we’re to both heading along the same lines to the effect that horses were clearly in use (although in rare use) in the southern Nigeria forest region from early times.

Many scattered pieces of evidence now strongly indicate that. And one such evidence which I was certainly going to bring up (thanks for suggesting it) is from the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works.

However, I wouldn’t be quick to label it as a 9th century work since many subsequent scholarly disclaimers now undermine those early radio-carbon dates submitted by Thurstan Shaw.

The contemporary scholarly consensus (including Thurstan Shaw’s himself), however, now appears to be in favour of a much later date. But this is not the specific point I intend to discuss here — at least not now.

Moreover, I am not aware of any such ”bronze figure of a mounted horseman from Igbo-Ukwu” to be honest. Can you please direct me to one such work from the Igbo-Ukwu corpus?

What I am aware of instead is the presence of a horse’s head as a motif among the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ works, and this clearly is an indication of the early use of horses (of course rare use considering tsetse fly) in the southern Nigeria forest region.

In addition to the Igbo-Ukwu horse’s head motif‘, there are a body of other evidence which strongly point to the use of horses in the southern Nigeria forest region — particularly as early as the 10th century.

One of such evidence is found the body of strongly held ancient Yoruba traditions one of which makes mention of horses in at least one verse of Odu-Ifa.

Also, a strongly held body of Ife royal traditions is unambiguous in its description of the significant part horses played (not merely as a prestigious royal possession) but particularly in Ife’s trade during Oduduwa’s reign — that is, c. 900 A.D./c. 1000 A.D.

In fact, Ife appears to have, for some time, had an early monopoly of horse trade in Yorubaland. This would appear to account for the southern Ekiti proverb which states that he who desires to own a horse must buy one from heaven through Ife.

Moreover, it is also known that some very ancient shrines in parts of Yorubaland (including Ife itself) feature sculptures of deities riding on horse back.


In conclusion:
What appears palpably perceptible from the foregoing body of evidence (especially those which shows that horses were the prized possessions of the early Ife royal court, as well as a key part of early Ife’s long distance fleet) is that your conclusion that Oranmiyan (a prince of Ife’s prestigious royal court) must have left Ife for Benin (on the authority of the Ooni) bare footed is far-fetched and extremely unlikely to say the least.

What appears most likely then on the other hand (in the light of the available body of evidence) is that he embarked on the long trip to Benin obviously with the permission of the Ooni, and as such with a full royal assemblage which included horses.

This conclusion moreover — unlike its opposite — has a scholarly support as may be seen in the conclusion of Paula Ben-Amos Girshick.

You keep quoting scholarly works,

This days works are appreciated with evidence and not with words......

I can wite anything that comes out from oral account which can be influenced by people selfish motives, but what distinguish good works
From others is evidence



Can you support with a strong evidence ife had horses with the datings and archeological findings

gregyboy:
[s]You keep quoting scholarly works,
This days works are appreciated with evidence and not with words......
I can wite anything that comes out from oral account which can be influenced by people selfish motives, but what distinguish good works
From others is evidence

Can you support with a strong evidence ife had horses with the datings and archeological findings[/s]

Shut Up!

I am presently engaging a sane individual — obviously not you.

RedboneSmith:
Oh, about the Igbo Ukwu mounted horseman.

Thank you very much. I just liked and shared that.

Is there a reference I could cite for this being Igbo-Ukwu, in case I’m asked for evidence?

RedboneSmith:

I'm interested in being shown studies that discredited Shaw's 9th century dates for Igbo-Ukwu. I'm aware that Babatunde Lawal raised skepticism about the dates back in the 1970s, but Thurstan Shaw published rebuttals in which he defended the dates. Since then (as far as I know) the dates have gone largely unchallenged.

If there are other published papers discrediting the dates that I'm unaware of, I'd like to see them.

Actually Thurstan Shaw himself upheld the scholarly disclaimers and leaned towards a much later date.

I will quote you such summary from one of his works shortly.
.
.
.
Modified:
To quote Professor Thurstan Shaw word-for-word where he sums up in a subsequent work (published three years after B. Lawal, 1972’s) and concludes as follows:

“SUMMARY
In the discussion of the reliance which should be placed on the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates, it is necessary to make certain that what evidence we have is correctly used. The precise locations of the samples used for dating are recalled and possible sources of error discussed. Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radiocarbon dates, stemming from the state of preservation of the textiles, the character of the beads, the pottery evidence, analogies with the presumed dating of Ife and Benin, the quantity and the source of the copper, and what is known of pre-European trading patterns in West Africa. The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.”

~ Thurstan Shaw, “Those Igbo-Ukwu Radiocarbon Dates: Facts, Fictions and Probabilities”, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4, (1975), p.517.

TAO11:
Actually Thurstan Shaw him self upheld the disclaimers and leaned towards a much later date.

I will quote you such summary from one of his works shortly:

Okay. I will wait.

TAO11:
Thank you very much. I just liked and shared that.

Is there are a reference I could cite for this being Igbo-Ukwu, in case I’m asked for evidence?

Pictures of the piece appear in Thurstan Shaw's two-volume work. "Unearthing Igbo-Ukwu: Account of Archaeological Excavation in Eastern Nigeria."

RedboneSmith:

Okay. I will wait.

https://www.nairaland.com/6074146/why-afuze-people-owan-east/2#93810615

RedboneSmith:
Pictures of the piece appear in Thurstan Shaw's two-volume work. "Unearthing Igbo-Ukwu: Account of Archaeological Excavation in Eastern Nigeria."

Thank you!

TAO11:
Actually Thurstan Shaw himself upheld the scholarly disclaimers and leaned towards a much later date.

I will quote you such summary from one of his works shortly.
.
.
.
Modified:
To quote Professor Thurstan Shaw word-for-word where he sums up in a subsequent work (published three years after B. Lawal, 1972’s) and concludes as follows:

“SUMMARY
In the discussion of the reliance which should be placed on the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates, it is necessary to make certain that what evidence we have is correctly used. The precise locations of the samples used for dating are recalled and possible sources of error discussed. Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radiocarbon dates, stemming from the state of preservation of the textiles, the character of the beads, the pottery evidence, analogies with the presumed dating of Ife and Benin, the quantity and the source of the copper, and what is known of pre-European trading patterns in West Africa. The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.”

~ Thurstan Shaw, “Those Igbo-Ukwu Radiocarbon Dates: Facts, Fictions and Probabilities”, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4, (1975), p.517.

The entire paper that Shaw put out following Lawal's objections gives a fuller context. Shaw was indeed in favour of more archeological work being done on the sites, but no where in the paper does he reject the radiocarbon dates he obtained (except for the so-called 'odd man out' of the fifteenth century) . In this same paper you quoted, Shaw reviews his data, and still came to the conclusion that, "the balance of probability seems to favour the eighth-to-eleventh century range." [page 507].

Five years later (in 1980), he contributed a chapter to the book "Groundwork of Nigerian history" in which it was clear he still favoured the dates he had published in the 1970s.

In 1997 he co-authored a paper in which he again reviewed his dates and wrote:

"The dating of the site has been the subject of some debate. Originally five radiocarbon dates were obtained, four from the ninth century AD (one from the wooden stool in the burial chamber, three from the disposal pit) and one anomalous date from the fifteenth century AD (disposal pit). Some years later three further dates were obtained, announced as thirteenth century for wood from the stool in the burial chamber, and two dates of the tenth and eleventh centuries from charcoal in the disposal pit (Shaw, 1995a; McIntosh and McIntosh, 1986, p. 433). These were subsequently corrected by the processing laboratory to the eleventh century for the wooden stool and eighth and ninth centuries for the charcoal (Bowman et al., 1990; Shaw, 1995b)

[from the paper, "Gao and Igbo-Ukwu: Beads, Interregional Trade, and Beyond" by Timothy Insoll and Thurstan Shaw. African Archaeological Review Vol 14 No 1 (published 1997)

So at the end of the 1990s, Shaw was still propounding a ninth-eleventh century range as in the 1970s. Other mainstream scholars of today (Sutton, Craddock, etc) still put the Igbo-Ukwu dates within that range. Apparently not much has changed in that regard since the first dates were published in 1970.

RedboneSmith:
The entire paper that Shaw put out following Lawal's objections gives a fuller context. Shaw was indeed in favour of more archeological work being done on the sites

Yes, in that paper he was clearly in favour of more archaeological work at Igbo-Ukwu.

But you seem to have missed the reason why he specifically called for that. He said and I quote here again:

“... but the question [of the reliance which should be placed on the radio-carbon dates] will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence”. ~ p.517.

So, he wasn’t simply calling for more archaeological work just for the sake of it. He clearly meant that in the context of the subsequent disclaimers (including his) on applying the already obtained radio-carbon dates to the ‘bronze’ artifacts.

but no where in the paper does he reject the radiocarbon dates he obtained (except for the so-called 'odd man out' of the fifteenth Cheney).

You seem to have missed either my argument, or his argument in that paper, or both.

He actually spells this out clearly in his summary in relation to the applying those radio-carbon dates to the ‘bronzes’. He concludes as follows:

“Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radio-carbon dates, ... The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.“ ~ p.517.

In other words, he admits the exaggerated antiquity of the ‘bronzes’; he concedes the arguments for a latter date for the ‘bronzes’; he acknowledges the unrealistic nature of applying the obtained radio-carbon dates to the ‘bronzes‘; and he clarified that the actual realistic later dates for the ‘bronzes‘ may only be specifically pinpointed with the acquisition of more archaeological finds.

In this same paper you quoted, Shaw reviews his data, and still came to the conclusion that, "the balance of probability seems to favour the eighth-to-eleventh century range." [page 507].

You seem to have gotten this all mixed up. My point, if you’ve noticed, was specifically in relation to the ‘bronze‘ artifacts.

The statement you’ve quoted here was made not in relation to the ‘bronzes’ from Igbo-Richard, but in relation to non-artifacts (i.e. the four ”composite charcoal samples”) which are in fact from an entirely different location, viz. Igbo-Jonah.

Moreover, even if this statement had been about the ‘bronzes’, it is important to always bear in mind that conclusions and summaries are the culmination and gist of a series of argument, etc.

Five years later (in 1980), he contributed a chapter to the book "Groundwork of Nigerian history" in which it was clear he still favoured the dates he had published in the 1970s

If by the statement “he still favoured the dates he had published in the 1970s” you refer to his later allusion to the same dates (in the absence of any specific information yet on the actual later dates of the ‘bronzes’); then the implication of this statement becomes clear and understandable in the context of the unavailability of new finds.

But if by this statement you’re suggesting that he later (in the year 1980) updated his earlier position with new research, find, or information which proves that applying the radio-carbon dates of the non-artifacts to the ‘bronzes’ was no longer problematic (contrary to his earlier position, and as an update to it); then please direct me to such statements in this 1980 publication.

In 1997 he co-authored a paper in which he again reviewed his 1980 dates and wrote:

"The dating of the site has been the subject of some debate. Originally five radiocarbon dates were obtained, four from the ninth century AD (one from the wooden stool in the burial chamber, three from the disposal pit) and one anomalous date from the fifteenth century AD (disposal pit). Some years later three further dates were obtained, announced as thirteenth century for wood from the stool in the burial chamber, and two dates of the tenth and eleventh centuries from charcoal in the disposal pit (Shaw, 1995a; McIntosh and McIntosh, 1986, p. 433). These were subsequently corrected by the processing laboratory to the eleventh century for the wooden stool and eighth and ninth centuries for the charcoal (Bowman et al., 1990; Shaw, 1995b)

[from the paper, "Gao and Igbo-Ukwu: Beads, Interregional Trade, and Beyond" by Timothy Insoll and Thurstan Shaw. African Archaeological Review Vol 14 No 1 (published 1997)

Again, just as in one of my remarks before this specific one, these specific dates being discussed here are not of the ‘bronze’ artifacts.

In fact, only one of them may have actually been an Igbo-Ukwu artifact at all — and that is the sample I-2008 (or as he puts it a “wood from what is interpreted as a stool”) from the Igbo-Richard burial chamber.

But as it is obvious, this “artifact” is itself not one of the ‘bronze’ artifacts, and neither does any date obtained for it address any of the problems which he himself admits in relation to applying such dates to the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronze’ artifacts.

So at the end of the 1990s, Shaw was still propounding a ninth-eleventh century range as in the 1970s. Other mainstream scholars of today (Sutton, Craddock, etc) still put the Igbo-Ukwu dates within that range. Apparently not much has changed in that regard since the first dates were published in 1970.

At this point, it is my hope that I have been able to distinguish between a general archaeological dating of Igbo-Ukwu settlement (based on “composite charcoal samples“, woods, etc.) on one hand; and the problems or improbabilities associated with assigning such obtained radio-carbon dates to the ‘bronzes’ on another hand.

The similitude of my argument here in the context of Ife archaeological finds is as the radio-carbon dating of certain charcoal samples and potsherd pavements from Ita-Yemoo, Ife to c. 960 A.D.

However, this fact alone by itself is not proof or evidence that the Ife ‘bronze’ artifacts recovered from the same Ita-Yemoo site (and in the same context) actually dates to the same period.

In fact, one of the bronze artifacts from the same Ita-Yemoo site (the one at my DP particularly) dates on the basis of thermoluminescence test to c. 1365 A.D. despite the same context of the finds.

Cheers!

Why do afuze, otuo and estako people bear Yoruba names. This question can only be answered by a true son of the soil. Not an Edo person who is not of royal blood. Well it will be important to know that in Owan odion was the first prince to settle in Owan present day uokha. He was a warrior and elder brother of oba Ewuare. He settle here because of invaders into Benin kingdom. Now The first Edaiken of uselu Prince Kuoboyiwa was murdered in Benin after jealousy was stooked between him and his younger brother. His mother is from iile Ife. Her son prince imaran life was also attempted forcing oba Ewuare to send him to prince odion escorted by his full uncle prince Ojoluwa or Ozolua. Their cousin also followed them on this trip his name is aremu as well as a blood relative called obazuwa famously called obazu. Now odion is uokha today, Prince Imaran descendents is email ( Afuze and ihievbe) their imarans mother is Yoruba called akowa still a deity till today in uanhumi the oldest Afuze town. Ozoluwa founded ora now sabongudda ora and aremu son of ooni of Ife and cousin to prince kubuoyiwa and ozolua founded iuleha today uzebba and neighbouring towns. Obazua died childless and is remembered till today. Yoruba and Owan people are blood relatives. Yoruba and Benin are blood relatives. The first son of ogendengbe of ilesha was born by avbiosi in iuleha called aitalegbe of avbiosi. Even a part of avbiosi called done speak Yoruba. Owan people are direct prince warriors of the Ewuare dynasty. They all greet the Oba standing and their greeting is called la oba I some trouble makers will short up and respect Benin Owan people and Yoruba. A child speaks both his father and mothers language. Oba GHA to kpere ise. In Owan language Oba ulo Tor ulo te ise.

Why do afuze, otuo and estako people bear Yoruba names. This question can only be answered by a true son of the soil. Not an Edo person who is not of royal blood. Well it will be important to know that in Owan odion was the first prince to settle in Owan present day uokha. He was a warrior and elder brother of oba Ewuare. He settle here because of invaders into Benin kingdom. Now The first Edaiken of uselu Prince Kuoboyiwa was murdered in Benin after jealousy was stooked between him and his younger brother. His mother is from iile Ife. Her son prince imaran life was also attempted forcing oba Ewuare to send him to prince odion escorted by his full uncle prince Ojoluwa or Ozolua. Their cousin also followed them on this trip his name is aremu as well as a blood relative called obazuwa famously called obazu. Now odion is uokha today, Prince Imaran descendents is emai ( Afuze and ihievbe) their mother ( prince imaran father of uzuabi (afuze) and oboh (ihievbe) is a Yoruba princess called akowa who still a deity till today in uanhumi the oldest Afuze town. Ozoluwa founded ora now sabongidda ora and aremu son of ooni of Ife and cousin to prince kubuoyiwa and ozolua founded iuleha today uzebba and neighbouring towns. Obazua stayed with aremu died childless and is remembered till today with obazu festival. Yoruba ( Ife) and Owan people are blood relatives. Yoruba and Benin are blood relatives. The first son of ogendengbe of ilesha was born by avbiosi in iuleha called aitalegbe of avbiosi. Even a part of avbiosi called sobe speak Yoruba. Owan people are direct prince warriors of the Ewuare dynasty. They all greet the Oba standing and their greeting is called la oba I hope some trouble makers will short up and respect Benin Owan people and Yoruba. A child speaks both his father and mothers language.that is why we have both Edo and Yoruba names Oba GHA to kpere ise. In Owan language Oba ulo Tor ulo te ise.