TenQ:

1. Except you are seeing something else "I didn't even use the words CLEARLY ESTABLISHED" in my writeup.

I didn't say you used it. I was using clearly established facts which you were rubbishing as lame. It has been clearly established that the mind is a product of the brain, no brain no mind but you called that lame when you can't even give any clearly established facts yourself.

Instead I have said:
"Near death experiences have shown that it may be possible for a flatlined person seeing things he/she could not have seen.
It may not be a conclusive proof BUT it creates doubt in the mainstream scientific narratives!"

Creates what doubt other than the criteria for knowing that a person is dead needs to be fine tuned because obviously our current level of instrumentation is not enough to see that these people are not dead yet. In some cases they are not even dead merely having what seems like an OBE. In all the places they have tested these NDEs by putting unseen messages directly above the patient, not one person has come back and reported what those messages are. So there clearly is no independent part of the human travelling during those episodes or else they would have seen those messages and reported them back.

2. So you can see how my foetus analogy is perfectly illustrated

One foetus to another:
You cannot show how a body-less mind will communicate foetus can exist outside the fluid in the womb, you cannot show how you would go about establishing that non-physical things exist existence is possible outside the womb, yet you are saying .... is lame. LoL.

I ask for methodology but instead you produce one of the lamest analogies you could have chosen. For one a foetus cannot think so cannot conceptualise or problem solve. Secondly a foetus cannot even use its body not to talk of using tools so how would it detect anything.

We have challenges with some scientific concepts that you could have used as an analogy but instead you chose a very unanalogous situation. But beyond that I didn't ask you for an analogy, I asked you for a methodology or do you not know the difference between the two?

FreeIgboho:


Sorry, the delayed responses are not intentional.

You probably like Sam Harris.
Well, Sam Harris is a one example of someone who argues from a neuroscientific point of view that the “I” is an illusion. And if there is no self to attribute existence, the cogito fails.

Descartes’ entire motivation for writing that famed statement was in order to establish that he existed, based on the premise that to think requires a thinker, and that the thinker must be something - him.
Which assumes a lot about time and space and that our thoughts are not manipulated to fallaciously deduce cogito ergo sum.

The statement we can really be 100% sure about is: “There is thinking, so something exists.”

No, I probably don’t like Sam Harris or any other supposed authority.
He says the “I” is an illusion but I bet he still answers to Sam Harris and still refers to himself as “I”. Also, he’s one of those atheist whites who down Christianity but romanticize Buddhism and that’s where he got the no “I” nonsense.

The only one assuming about time/space and other nonsense is you. And your assumption is based on the misunderstanding of a movie.

If you’re 100% sure there is thinking, then you should be 100% sure that there is a brain doing the thinking. A brain housed in an individual’s skull does the thinking unless you can show me a disembodied thought.

Again, you keep taking about there is no “I” so how can there be “we”?

P.S. Sam Harris and the likes of him who use phrases like “western civilization started from the Greeks” or “judeo-Christian values” are no people I place much value in or give a damn about their views. Their views are obviously warped by ignorance and the mental illness ironically called “white supremacy”.

MaxInDHouse:


Just ask him few questions:

What was God's original purpose for Adam and Eve? Were they to live for a short time and die? If not then why are we all dying since we are not Adam and Eve? Is it just for humans to continue dying that God created us or we are to continue living forever on planet earth?

Then let him explain what the Messiah is coming to do, even little children that never committed any wrong do die, so is it their sin that led to their death?

Lol!

Thank you.

He is at liberty to explain to us.
But I think it’s a very tight and uphill task to explain the Bible ( even the Old Testament) and excise the Messiah from the accounts.

KnownUnknown:


I don’t see anything.

To play your silly game. Isn’t there a difference between the reality in the Nebuchadnezzar/real world and the reality in the Matrix?

Isn’t there a difference between the fields,where they grow humans and connect their brains to the mainframe through the pods, and the Matrix?

You keep on yapping about consciousness being the only real thing in the Matrix while ignoring the real world where the connections occur.

Yapping about the matrix and ignoring that the damn computer holding the simulation is supposed to be in the real world.


Did you just see the movie or something?!!!

He says he hasn't even seen the movie, can you imagine. He hasn't seen the movie but he knows it's a perfect analogy. LMAO!

LordReed:


What would 100% certainty consist of? What parameters need to be established to achieve 100% certainty? And why is a good degree of certainty unacceptable why must it be 100%?

See?! Yet u want absolute proof that God exists! I knew eventually you’d say it yourself!
The only thing we can be sure of in this our reality is that something exists. Everything else beyond that is probability including my/your existence. The same probability that makes it very likely there is someone behind all this - God!

KnownUnknown:


No, I probably don’t like Sam Harris or any other supposed authority.
He says the “I” is an illusion but I bet he still answers to Sam Harris and still refers to himself as “I”. Also, he’s one of those atheist whites who down Christianity but romanticize Buddhism and that’s where he got the no “I” nonsense.

The only one assuming about time/space and other nonsense is you. And your assumption is based on the misunderstanding of a movie.

If you’re 100% sure there is thinking, then you should be 100% sure that there is a brain doing the thinking. A brain housed in an individual’s skull does the thinking unless you can show me a disembodied thought.

Again, you keep taking about there is no “I” so how can there be “we”?

P.S. Sam Harris and the likes of him who use phrases like “western civilization started from the Greeks” or “judeo-Christian values” are people I place much value in or give a damn about their views. Their views are obviously warped by ignorance and the mental illness ironically called “white supremacy”.

The man is a neuroscientist. That’s his expertise. I don’t think it’s yours. See what he says below. Tell us what part of it is false.
(Notice how what he is saying is what I told you is POSSIBLE. Yet here he is, stating it as a fact!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut6cr89GDVk

LordReed:


I didn't say you used it. I was using clearly established facts which you were rubbishing as lame. It has been clearly established that the mind is a product of the brain, no brain no mind but you called that lame when you can't even give any clearly established facts yourself.

Some verified NDE accounts show the contrary.
That is why some scientists would rather death be redefined away from the standard lack of electrical activities in the brain.

LordReed:

Creates what doubt other than the criteria for knowing that a person is dead needs to be fine tuned because obviously our current level of instrumentation is not enough to see that these people are not dead yet. In some cases they are not even dead merely having what seems like an OBE. In all the places they have tested these NDEs by putting unseen messages directly above the patient, not one person has come back and reported what those messages are. So there clearly is no independent part of the human travelling during those episodes or else they would have seen those messages and reported them back.

When some peoples OBE's are reporting real events outside the location of their bodies, a serious doubt is created in the standard scientific narration; don't you think so?
The problem you are highlighting here is repeatability of both NDE and OBE experiences. Unfortunately, there seem to be no form of predictability in their outcomes.

LordReed:

I ask for methodology but instead you produce one of the lamest analogies you could have chosen. For one a foetus cannot think so cannot conceptualise or problem solve. Secondly a foetus cannot even use its body not to talk of using tools so how would it detect anything.

We have challenges with some scientific concepts that you could have used as an analogy but instead you chose a very unanalogous situation. But beyond that I didn't ask you for an analogy, I asked you for a methodology or do you not know the difference between the two?

There is no methodology one can propose over what you have no control over!
Meaning that they are not subject to scientific studies.

Even when one is casting out demons from a person, you don't have any control over what will happen or how it will happen. No one does!

FreeIgboho:


See?! Yet u want absolute proof that God exists! I knew eventually you’d say it yourself!
The only thing we can be sure of in this our reality is that something exists. Everything else beyond that is probability including my/your existence. The same probability that makes it very likely there is someone behind all this - God!

Can you quote where I said I want absolute proof that a god exists?

I have said it before and lemme repeat here so that you'll see it, I do hold out a probability that a god exists and that probability is currently at 1%. That is how improbable I think of the possibility.

Meanwhile you have not answered any of the questions I posed to you and also note I did not mention god in any of the questions I asked, you are the one bringing up god. Note it so that when the discussion takes a turn that puts you in an untenable position you don't start laying blame elsewhere. LoL.

TenQ:

Some verified NDE accounts show the contrary.
That is why some scientists would rather death be redefined away from the standard lack of electrical activities in the brain.

When some peoples OBE's are reporting real events outside the location of their bodies, a serious doubt is created in the standard scientific narration; don't you think so?
The problem you are highlighting here is repeatability of both NDE and OBE experiences. Unfortunately, there seem to be no form of predictability in their outcomes.

Provide some examples so I can understand what you are talking about.

There is no methodology one can propose over what you have no control over!
Meaning that they are not subject to scientific studies.

Even when one is casting out demons from a person, you don't have any control over what will happen or how it will happen. No one does!

LMAO! There you have it folks, we cannot probe their beliefs because it is out of their hands yet they truly believe it all. Ok o, just note what you have said here for future reference. LMFAO!

KnownUnknown:


The only one assuming about time/space and other nonsense is you. And your assumption is based on the misunderstanding of a movie.

What’s with your fixation with that movie? It’s just a vehicle for analogy!!!
As for time/space, does it mean he didn’t exist when he wasn’t thinking? How can thinking NOW establish his existence yesterday?

FreeIgboho:


The man is a neuroscientist. That’s his expertise. I don’t think it’s yours. See what he says below. Tell us what part of it is false.
(Notice how what he is saying is what I told you is POSSIBLE. Yet here he is, stating it as a fact!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut6cr89GDVk

I don’t care that he is a neuroscientist. Besides, what he said is not based on neuroscience but metaphysics from the Buddhist perspective. Both your edited video and the full clip makes that clear. It’s contradictory word salad with the same old religious ideas. He says there is no self in one breath then talks about self transcendence in the other.
The “I” exists, otherwise I wouldn’t be speaking to you. The sense of self and consciousness comes from the brain and we’ve seen people lose their sense of self when the brain starts malfunctioning regardless of anything the Buddhists say.

Appeal to authority doesn’t work here.

FreeIgboho:


What’s with your fixation with that movie? It’s just a vehicle for analogy!!!
As for time/space, does it mean he didn’t exist when he wasn’t thinking? How can thinking NOW establish his existence yesterday?

My fixation?!

Aren’t you the one who posted the movie and made the absurd neo/matrix analogy?

Rephrase those questions.

FreeIgboho:


What’s with your fixation with that movie? It’s just a vehicle for analogy!!!
As for time/space, does it mean he didn’t exist when he wasn’t thinking? How can thinking NOW establish his existence yesterday?

There we go, blaming other people for the very thing you brought up. How is he the one fixated on the movie when it is you always bringing up the movie? LMFAO!

Nothingserious:


This is interesting!

Thank you for appealing to the Old Testament.

But do you think the New Testament is part of the Bible and is valid?

If yes, then the sacrifices of Jesus Christ and his death , resurrection and atonement death is valid. Acts and Hebrews discuss the indispensability of salvation through Jesus Christ and his blood.

But if you say no, then you will need to help us carefully and with surgical precision excise the Old Testament texts that talked about the Messiah and the work he will do in saving his people from sin and reconciliation of men and women to God.

Will you be willing to help us out Sir/Ma?

God and Messiah are two different beings...don't mix them. God is the creator and saviour of man. When you confess and forsake he forgives after all it is his commandments you broke.
The Jewish Messiah is a man from the tribe of Judah meaning his father will be from Judah and his mother must be a Jewish woman. The idea of God mating with human is not part of Jewish religion. It is greek/Roman mythology.

For the purpose of the Messiah see my new thread..

Nothingserious:


Lol!

Thank you.

He is at liberty to explain to us.
But I think it’s a very tight and uphill task to explain the Bible ( even the Old Testament) and excise the Messiah from the accounts.

Where did it say the Messiah is a demi God coming to die for sins.....

I will wait. No long story just give me quotes...I will check them.

FreeIgboho:


See?! Yet u want absolute proof that God exists! I knew eventually you’d say it yourself!
The only thing we can be sure of in this our reality is that something exists. Everything else beyond that is probability including my/your existence. The same probability that makes it very likely there is someone behind all this - God!

Why someone and not something ??

KnownUnknown:


My fixation?!

Aren’t you the one who posted the movie and made the absurd neo/matrix analogy?

Rephrase those questions. Lordreed

Yes, but it was only in passing, I made it clear I was only using small part of it as analogy. Yet you keep harping on it like it’s central to the discussion!

Nothingserious:

Lol!
Thank you.
He is at liberty to explain to us.
But I think it’s a very tight and uphill task to explain the Bible ( even the Old Testament) and excise the Messiah from the accounts.

We find ourselves here and today all of us can see that 99.99999% of the problems we have on this planet is caused by our fellow humans.
The only problem we can't figure out is oldage and death. The Bible made it clear that Adam and Eve brought about oldage and death.
So if we are innocent of what we are suffering then there must be a way out of this, that's why we need a perfect human soul to redeem us from the cause of oldage and death. God's word made it clear that the Messiah will serve as the sacrificial lamb and will wash away all our sins. But he has been poisoned against anything having to do with Jesus.
The first time i met him on this forum once he mentioned that he's been discussing with a Jew i pity him because those people are ready to agree with anything so far it's against Jesus.
Can you imagine that this same sonmvayina believes in reincarnation and Babylonian methodology? Yet he wants to argue about idolatry!
Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob see anything good in the nonsense and ingredients that any nation worshiping demons believe?
The last time i tormented him with the truth of God's word the confused idiot began cursing me, saying God will punish me for not accepting his delusion. So i reminded him that according to reincarnation (which he believes) whether people die by gun, drowning, slaughter or sleep they're all going to reincarnate again, so what punishment is he talking about?
He was totally confused because he just wish people take him serious whereas he doesn't have the knowledge to convince anyone!

FreeIgboho:


Yes, but it was only in passing, I made it clear I was only using small part of it as analogy. Yet you keep harping on it like it’s central to the discussion!

It is not a SMALL part of YOUR discussion, it is central to your discussion which is why you always bring it up. And as I have asked you before what type of supernatural abilities are you able to display ala Neo? You have never said. You even said you are unable to distinguish between dream and real life, one quality of dreams is defiance of natural physical laws, so which have those have you been able to exhibit?

sonmvayina:


Why someone and not something ??

It doesn’t matter. Because one thing is highly like - it will be an entity totally not what we imagined or even capable and imagining!

LordReed:


It is not a SMALL part of YOUR discussion, it is central to your discussion which is why you always bring it up. And as I have asked you before what type of supernatural abilities are you able to display ala Neo? You have never said. You even said you are unable to distinguish between dream and real life, one quality of dreams is defiance of natural physical laws, so which have those have you been able to exhibit?

I made it clear I ONLY used it to show that, just as Neo thought everything was real when they were not, sane could be our case. That’s ALL!

Lordreed KnownUnknown sonmvayina

I hope we are all now all agreed that cogito is fallacious

FreeIgboho:


I hope we are all now all agreed that cogito is fallacious

Whatever floats your boat sweetheart.

FreeIgboho:


I made it clear I ONLY used it to show that, just as Neo thought everything was real when they were not, sane could be our case. That’s ALL!

We could be playing out a script written by Plasma Beings residing inside the sun who use us as a form of hybrid entertainment.

Earth is a prison colony created to pacify or punish brains in a vat located in the fourth dimension.

Same could be our case, That’s ALL!

FreeIgboho:


It doesn’t matter. Because one thing is highly like - it will be an entity totally not what we imagined or even capable and imagining!

We are all suffering from collective amnesia..

FreeIgboho:


I hope we are all now all agreed that cogito is fallacious

LoL how is thinking fallacious?

FreeIgboho:


I made it clear I ONLY used it to show that, just as Neo thought everything was real when they were not, sane could be our case. That’s ALL!

And we made it clear that movies are not real life. Matrix is not what is happening in real life, stop being so enamoured of an analogy you loose your grasp of real life.

LordReed:


Provide some examples so I can understand what you are talking about.

Google is your friend!

LordReed:

LMAO! There you have it folks, we cannot probe their beliefs because it is out of their hands yet they truly believe it all. Ok o, just note what you have said here for future reference. LMFAO!

Please feel very free to quote me!

TenQ:

Some verified NDE accounts show the contrary.
That is why some scientists would rather death be redefined away from the standard lack of electrical activities in the brain.

When some peoples OBE's are reporting real events outside the location of their bodies, a serious doubt is created in the standard scientific narration; don't you think so?
The problem you are highlighting here is repeatability of both NDE and OBE experiences. Unfortunately, there seem to be no form of predictability in their outcomes.

There is no methodology one can propose over what you have no control over!
Meaning that they are not subject to scientific studies.

Even when one is casting out demons from a person, you don't have any control over what will happen or how it will happen. No one does!

Even when one is casting out demons from a person, you don't have any control over what will happen or how it will happen. No one does!

Scientific rules are not applicable to spiritual things: get that truth in your head!

KnownUnknown:


We could be playing out a script written by Plasma Beings residing inside the sun who use us as a form of hybrid entertainment.

Earth is a prison colony created to pacify or punish brains in a vat located in the fourth dimension.

Same could be our case, That’s ALL!

Now u r getting. No possibility can be definitively ruled out - except that nothing exists.

LordReed:


LoL how is thinking fallacious?

Cogito is short for cogito ergo sum, smart ass

LordReed:


And we made it clear that movies are not real life. Matrix is not what is happening in real life, stop being so enamoured of an analogy you loose your grasp of real life.

The problem lies in definition of terms. I don’t think you quite get what is meant by analogy. See below

FreeIgboho:


Now u r getting. No possibility can be definitively ruled out - except that nothing exists.

I know the difference between sci-fi speculation and real life. You seem incapable of that. That’s what I get.