Sorry for my typo.I mean "paying".

MrBible:

Churches collecting tithes are all thieves as the pastors are not Jews, the workers are not Levites and the tithes are not farm produce.

My friend Christianity in all about faith in a CHRIST and not in man.

Anything you give is between you and GOD.

That is were faith comes in.

otokx:

People are entitled to their opinion so Tee-jay just say yours and relax

Of course they are, and like you said it's just an opinion nothing to say his opinion is correct

Tee-jay

Let the people who are giving the money complain now! Abi which one be your own now? is it your money?

It was through discussions like this and on Premier radio UK with RUSS KELLY'S and his TITHING VIDEO ESSAY 22 PARTS; YOU TUBE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLhM4KlQDu4&feature=BFa&list=PLB629166196B770CB&index=3 that made it clear that churches collecting tithes are all thieves. So it is my duty too to make others aware of the truth about tithes and false preachers collecting it.

From some post on this thread, it appears so many people really do not have the grasp of what "CHURCH" means!

oh! how I wish God would open thier eyes of understanding!

Again, as for tithing, people often fail to understand's God's symbolism in the OT! I tithe and I know why I do it! People need to understand the spiritual symbolism of tithing and I am sure when they do, they will even want to give God 20% of thier earnings!

Maybe the right question to be asked is this; Was tithing ever God's idea and if so, for what reason?

Church and mosque if for sheep/flock. Spend your time doing something creative or go watch some movies. Don't waste your time in religious institutions.

@ omo_tier

Pls educate me on this tithing issue.

Where exactly does the tithes go?

If it was reflected in the OT, Fine-----but, is it reflected in the NT. If it was refelcted in the OT how was done? and how is it meant to be done?

Considering if it is an OT mandate, how come some other mandates in the OT are not being followed?
what is the spiritual sybolism of tithing?

thanks

dare2think:

what is the spiritual sybolism of tithing?

thanks

I can tell you Omo_Tier1 does not have a clue. Probably heard his/her pastor saying tithe has 'spiritual sybolism'

Hmm I tried reading thru some of the posts(some i jumped) but one thing that has been stressed strongly is tithe/money/greed of pastors. I appreciate the poster for stating some of the reasons why he stopped going to church. well for me generally i choose which sunday to go reason is this

- I hardly hear about the exaltation of Last Adam and who i am in Him but more of the First Adam in the flesh which is anti-God!
- I am condemned/judged as a sinner when God in Christ has declared me Righteous in Christ and concludes that i am not condemned .
- I am made to see that my heart is desperately wicked when God in Ezekiel states in Christ a New heart and spirit He will give me .
- It is what i 'do' or not 'do' that qualifies me before God when in truth is that Christ is qualified   ;Dbefore God and for that reason i in Christ am qualified before the Father.

and so many things. So in the end i use this to judge any teaching
Is Christ exalted from the prophets, psalms etc
Is the grace of God revealed as the basis of my stand before God
Is the message kingdom based whicg Righteousness(Christ is my rightesouness), peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

In many churches there's nothing like free giving you're sort of 'forced' to give by all means:
1. Oftentimes you'll see pastors reiterating that you're robbing God by not giving tithe - this is one way of making you feel guilty about not giving, the quote they normally use is in the old testament and like the poster above me said is there any place in the new testament where the Bible command us to pay tithe?

2. many pastors now offer special prayer/handshake/annointing specifically for those paying their tithe. In my former Church the pastor will ask people who are paying their tithe to come out every sunday for special prayer and annointing, this act is a way of bulying other members to try and give next time to enable them become partakers of these blessings/special annointing.

3. I soon found out that going to former church was more like a routine then I decided one day to stop going, many of the present day churches no longer care about the poor and less privileged among them instead of raing money or using the available funds to help the sick, old members who can't cater for themselves or even widows they raise money to buy properties after properties and I keep wondering why many of these churches need all these properties for and for who's benefit.

@OP

God loves variety. There are different churches serving different audience. How about trying Deeper Life, I think they don't do a lot of what you talked about.

Yes the church needs a refocus and the issue of tithing while very important has become very legalistic the way it is portrayed. The key point is all about giving. Whether you are a christian or not, giving is a principle that applies to all. It pays to be generous. The world knows it and even pagans do it. The problem with a lot of churches is the disconnect or breakdown of communication. Attaching specific blessings to how much you give breeds contempt and shows a lack of understanding of how God works.

In the 21st century, I believe before any church thinks of expanding to new areas, it must first ask itself, what is our reputation in our present community? Not like becoming godfathers or king makers, we are talking about feeding hungry folks, medical, healing for depressed, counselling and other social justice issues. It is a huge opportunity for African churches to touch lives and live the values of Christ. When Churches ask for offerings with out communicating what this will achieve then there is room for suspicions.

Most Mega churches are hated by the mere fact that they are big and successful, just like folks hate Manchester United, MicroSoft, USA, Barcelona etc, it is the natural way humans react. But the church focus must be on impacting its community with the word and works.

I also believe Churches must be accountable, yes they are Non Profits but I would love that financial statements be open and accessible, visit a church website and I see it. We don't have to do it but we can't doubt there are a few giving the church a bad name out there.

At poster, you can start a ministry of what you think your current church is not doing. By ministry I don't mean starting your own church, pick a community need and solve it using Christs principles.

@all, Whilst I appreciate all contributions being made on this topic, I'll however like to add few more things just to redirect us to the main issue.

What do we call success in this dispensation? Here, we're referring to the Church. Churches are  now judged as successful based on the numbers of branches, Cars or planes the Pastors cruise on, how big the building is and not necessarily the numbers of born-again.

In the Acts of apostles, we see how the Church was added thousands of new converts without necessarily seeking to build a new Church. Each province is provided with a Church (a huge one), this is done to avoid cumbering the province (area) with Churches.  But you look at today's Churches; Redeemed for instance, I'm sure if look very closely to where you live, you'd count 5 of them! why?, the more these Churches are closer to you, the more money the Church will make. They don't even want you to go any where else. This strategy is working perfectly. You'd think they're doing this to ease transportation, sorry to burst your bubble, no!

Christians are very sceptical, naive and are not courageous enough. God says test all spirits whether they from HIM. The day we stopped thinking, questioning,reasoning and being critical, that is the day we should join the animal world! It took God six days to create the world; six days of serious thinking and reasoning! The Bible accounts that on the seventh day God rested. Well, you wouldn't rest if you're not exhausted, would you?|

All Christians are M.O.G's and all Christians's have got their own ministry. If you find yourself on the Pulpit preaching every time, then your ministry is to Pastor (lead) people, if you sing, that's your ministry and so on. " Touch not my anointed, " is no longer required and can no more be used between Christians; you say that to the Herbalists in your neighbourhood, the Wizard and Witches in your family and so on. The radical Jesus's apostles criticized one another for failure of duty, how much more we that are now experiencing such a grace wonderfully bestowed upon us.

@ paris10
I read your post and the several contributions made. Indeed, you seem to have just voiced out a lot of true Christian's agony vis-a-vis the church as is today. It could really be disheartening for a lot of people who are truly desirous of the true church. A lot of things have indeed gone wrong!
In addition to the many instances that you(and others) have detailed, many so-called "new converts" in some of these churches are anything but sound. There seem not to be any genuine spiritual structures to coach/mentor/disciple these ones into spiritual adulthood. And so, as soon as one is converted, the very next message they get to hear is the prosperity msg! That ultimately leaves them very shallow-minded about biblical teachings/principles. They become so susceptible to just anything their pastors say/do as they are their sole examples!
Truth is scriptures was(and still is) given by the inspiration of God through the Holy spirit, and is available to everyone desirous of living out its principles. I sometimes seriously disagree with some of the things done in my church, and even with some of the messages!! My consolation, however, has always been that those WORDS have never personally failed me.
Bottomline: Make it a personal responsibility to allow only the Word from the Scriptures to speak to you.

NEWSFLASH: God's priority isn't to make us rich, it is to make us perfect like He is perfect. Riches are secondary benefits to living a righteous, God-centred, obedient lives and if poverty will make you lean on God better and trust, listen and obey him more (and it usually does) then it may be His will to KEEP YOU FINANCIALLY DEPENDENT ON HIM.

God's blessings doesn't always mean more money.

The gospel of Christ that was supposed to set the captives free has been hijacked by money-hungry wolves who have re-trapped the captives with the chains of 'prosperity gospel,' keeping them chasing money and God's presents when they should be chasing God and his presence.

The materialistic, 'get rich or die trying' culture in Nigeria has seeped into the church: same hustle, different methods.

May God help us all.

^^


May GOD bless you a MILLION fold for your biblical statement.

All these false prophets ever think about is money money money.

last week I was listening to this Redeemed brother. We were discussing people that blesses Pastors. He made me realise that even if those money or materials given to these Pastors were or are fraudulently acquired, it does not make any difference. He said where sin abound, grace does much much abound (Romans 5:20). I looked at him and almost punched him in the face, holy spirit helped him

There is always a word or verse of scripture to back up fraud!!!

@paris10

i'm exactly in your shoes and align with your thoughts.this is when reason is at the core over faith.many christians fear to take this path because they are scared of the journey ahead.

@Akan 10

Joshua 1:8 - Do not let this book of the law depart from your mouth. But meditate on it day and night that ye might be careful 2 keep every word written there in. Then ye shall be prosperous and have good success.

what book of the law is that?

You're right about the secular principles to wealth. It's about the same for christians. And that's what many a successful pastor or minstry follows, knowingly or unknowingly. Giving is only a small part of what what you need to do to get wealthy. My little study has convinced me that pastors truly follow these principles, including little giving - less than 5% (including "tithes", while the flock sometimes gives everything they have, yet making only marginal economic progress. I'm willing to donate $1000 to a charity of the person's choosing, if any person can show me that he knows up to 5 pastors or ministries that truly give more than 5% of income.

About church being boring, I share your pain. It seems to be a recurring refrain. I believe that pastors called by God really have good intentions in emphasizing money. The assumption is that if christians prosper, it'll be a good testimony for Jesus and there will be more resources to carry out the Great Commission. Sadly, the pursuit of wealth has left many unhappy and unfulfilled. Ever wonder why campus fellowship (in those days; don't know if changed today) seemed to be full of joy and gladness? Well, nobody worried about money and how to get it, including the pastors. It was all about serving God and living right in a community in which everybody knew each other. No family responsibilities, so people had little qualms spending a lot of time in fellowship. Well, outside school, there are many responsibilities and being in church most of the week does not sound like a good formula. There are so many building and other projects that neever seem to end. People are burnt out and are not refreshed. True fellowship hardly exists as people rush in and rush out or gravitate toward people of their own socio-economic class. Unsuccessful people are made to feel inferior. At least, in school everybody was a student. Class distinctions, while existent, was not as pronounced. Now, it's a matter of who lives in Lekki or works in Chevron.

My fear is that this sense of dissatisfaction will continue and lead to more problems for everyone. Pastors are far removed from the people and genuinely do not know their problems. When we're growing up, a Catholic priest can drive into your compound without prompting. Greet everybody and people feel good. There is no system in pentecostal circles to have real interaction and dialogue. Members have to accept everything the leadership says. If you complain, the response you hear is that you should find a ministry that aligns more with your beliefs. There is simply no rational basis for the disconnect between the clergy and the congregation.





Giving for the sake of giving is just a waste of money. What makes you rich is investment, i don't see how lining a pastors pocket with more money or giving a hungry person food will make me better off financially except for the joy one derives in doing a good deed as in the case of the hungry person. Bouncing money from one person to another doesn't create wealth it is when you put money to work that is when you create wealth

this is reason.

paris10:

There is always a word or verse of scripture to back up fraud!!!

seen

Hi all.

I just want to comment and I will not join issues with anyone because for most people, money is hard to come by and people feel differently when it comes to the issue of money or loosing money or perceiving someone is tricking them into parting with their money under a false claim or disguise.

Of a truth, giving is very spiritual but the spiritual as well is very complex. The word of God is true and there is no one that can change that. Some people are not Christians and they give and also they are very blessed. Some are not Christians and they give and run into trouble. Wealth gotten outside Christ cannot be vouched for even if you are a Pastor. Only the rich man knows truly how he got his wealth.

Ok, lets look at tithe: Deut 26:12-15 says

12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

14 I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.

15 Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey"

from v13, God says after you have observed tithing, pray unto me in a particular manner. How many people do it? Then our tithes, does it get to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow?

Lets look at the Pastors as instructed in numbers 18:24-32:

24. But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.

28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest .

Pastor as seen above are equally instructed to pay to someone of higher calling (anointing) in this case Aaron the High Priest if they want the flow to continue. As some people claim in this thread that Pasors dont give, I wont argue on that because I dont know those you refer to but I know those who give to their mentors who have been called before them and they are soaring like the eagle. Let God be true and all men be liars.

Even Jesus christ says we should tithe but we should add judgment, mercy and faith? Math 23:23 and that takes me to another outlook. Are you paying tithe buy you show no mercy? Are you paying tithe but you pervert justice? Are you paying tithe and you do not expect or believe that God can reward you? Then you are just wasting your money.

James 2:13 says:

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So you must show mercy so that you can obtain mercy.

Hebrew 11:6 says:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"

So God is able to reward your giving if you believe he will. You must have faith and be consistent in your giving to prove him that you are committed. Not that you do it for three months and say I didnt get anything therefore its not working.

Another area to look at is our foundation and our life style:

Psalm 11:3 says:

"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?"

The righteous cannot just give tithe and continue in sin. infact, his tithing is an abomination to God

Deut 5:7-10 says

7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

The key word above is 3rd and 4th generation. A generation is 100 yrs. Let me ask us, who was our great grand fathers? Who was our grand fathers? who was our fathers? Were they Servants of God or Servants of Idols? Many of us have our grand fathers as Ezemos, Babalawos and Cultists. And God said he will visit their iniquity upon us. Ask me how? He wont show us mercy.

Now you must receive mercy before you can receive blessing and according to the scripture above, the condition for God to show you mercy is that you love him and keep his commandments.

Are you keeping his commandments? Is tithing his only instruction in the bible? Have you searched your foundation and discovered perhaps you need to break and detach yourselves from it if its evil. Are you living in sin and wishing that grace abound? you cannot be a carrier of his mercy and grace if there is sin in your life.

1 john 5:17 says:

All unrighteousness is a sin:

Desist from every unrighteousness, detach yourself from evil foundation, be a blessing to people around you and of course give your tithe and see him transform your life.

PLEASE NOTE THAT NO ONE CAN PERFECTLY UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS BUT ITS NOTE WORTHY THAT WE FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS

^^^^^^^^

I don't recall anybody saying that pastors do not give. Only that they give a small portion of their income away, as opposed to the congregation that gives a very large portion, yet do not in any way compare to the pastor in terms of financial success. Maybe, I should use this opportunity to elucidate and educate on giving.

There are several types of giving or activities that we refer to as giving.

1. True Giving. Here you give to people that have no chance of repaying you. As you're giving, there's zero expectation that the person will pay you back either because the person does not have the means or you may never see the person again or for sundry reasons. The Book of Proverbs says in at least 2 places that when you give to the poor you lend to the Lord and the Lord HIMSELF (not the poor) will repay you.

2. Semi-true giving. You give to people, who can repay you. However, your basis of giving is not that they'd repay you. E.g., you pay the school fees of a relative, neighbor, a fellow church member. Sure, there's a good chance that they'd graduate tomorrow to be rich, but your motivation is not that when they graduate they return the money you gave them (with interest).


3. Self-Giving. This is giving to yourself (not to be confused with giving yourself or giving of yourself, which are often sacrificial and not selfish). This is not truly giving. The correct term here is investment. You are investing in yourself. If you read one of the classics on personal finance, 'The Secrets of the Richest Man of Baylon', it takes about the time-tested principle of paying yourself first, even when you're owing others. You can invest in yourself by acquiring a good education, injecting profits back into your business, giving to people strategically to grow the business (paying to "area fathers", belonging to associations, training interns, employees, etc). Even make charitable contributions, that brings you goodwill in the community, that in turn brings you profits.

Virtually, every money a pastor or ministry "gives" falls in the third category. They buy cars, but mainly for members of the their church, which in turn ties the people to them and get them committed. They pay for the school fees of church members, again for the same purpose or result.They give to their spiritual fathers to maintain a beneficial relationship. They give to sponsor ministry projects, which yields more members. So, when a pastor claims to be the biggest giver in the congregation, he's not necessarily lying if you're thinking of Category 3, which is is really not giving.

Continued . . .

Contrast the pastor's or minstry's giving to that of the members. A pastor that made 10 Million Naira in a year could give away 7 Million Naira easily. But most of that giving is strategic. You're not likely to hear that he secretly went to a remote village, identified missionary or a local pastor not affiliated to his minstry and give him a million Naira to help with his work. You're not likely to learn that he paid the school fees of people in another area or even country that do not know anything about him. No, you'll hear that he bought a car for a junior pastor, paid the school fees of a poor medical student in his church, donated with fanfare to a motherless babies home, etc.

Meanwhile the member that made 10 Million Naira profit in his business would pay a tithe. First fruit is interpreted in a number of ways and could mean his first deal in the year. If that deal was 5 Million Naira, he gives all of it to the church. He gives offerings. He gives to building projects. Crusades. Special seed into the pastor's and other minister's life. Even thoug he's a partner in the minsitry, if the pastor writes a book or produces materials (CD, DVD), this member is likely to "launch it" or pay for it. At the end of the day, he has poured about 30 - 60% of his income into that ministry. Guess, who comes out ahead: the member or the pastor/ministry? Then multiply with the number of members following teh same circle and it becomes readily apparent why we have so much socio-economic disparity in the church.

Imagine if that member had followed the pastor's approach: give only 5% as true or semi-true giving. Give the rest as an investment in himself or his business - travel abroad to study or make contacts, hire more people, open more branches, cultivate the friendships of those who'd help his business by bringing the gifts on their birthdays, etc. His business is likely to grow better. Send his kids to good schools so thay can come back to grow the business. If he's looking for a job, his prospects would be brighter with the better education. But it often does not happen.

Now, remember also that some members also give strategically. Often when they give to the pastor, they're buying closeness that would bring them benefits - using the pastor's contacts. Often, it's those members that prosper, that give the big testimonies. The poor guy that is fooled that it is all about giving, simpliciter, continues to wallow in poverty. Such person needs better knowledge.

As Isaiah says, God's people are led into captivity (e.g. unnecessary poverty) because of their lack of knowledge.

Jo you know I love you. But even you have to come to terms to what the bible says about tithing.
It does not have to be given to the church. As it stands, I would rather give my tithe to a starving family than deposit it in a church building, because in-truth, that is all it is, a building.

Remember what God thinks of True religion. I don't need to quote that verse to you.

Also, read the entirety of Deutoronomy 26 for how tithing was done in the old days.
It's purpose is infact NOT for the enriching of church coffers or pastor's pockets, but for the provision of the needy.

The crux of tithing:
Deut 26 : 12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

I know people are still not going to read that chapter I have been posting for a while now. So here it is:

Deuteronomy 26

Firstfruits and Tithes

1 When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the LORD your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3 and say to the priest in office at the time, “I declare today to the LORD your God that I have come to the land the LORD swore to our ancestors to give us.” 4 The priest shall take the basket from your hands and set it down in front of the altar of the LORD your God. 5 Then you shall declare before the LORD your God: “My father was a wandering Aramean, and he went down into Egypt with a few people and lived there and became a great nation, powerful and numerous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor. 7 Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our ancestors, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression. 8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, LORD, have given me.” Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11 Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.
12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13 Then say to the LORD your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14 I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the LORD my God; I have done everything you commanded me. 15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey.”

Follow the LORD’s Commands

16 The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. 17 You have declared this day that the LORD is your God and that you will walk in obedience to him, that you will keep his decrees, commands and laws—that you will listen to him. 18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands. 19 He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the LORD your God, as he promised.

tunnytox:

In many churches there's nothing like free giving you're sort of 'forced' to give by all means:
1. Oftentimes you'll see pastors reiterating that you're robbing God by not giving tithe - this is one way of making you feel guilty about not giving, the quote they normally use is in the old testament and like the poster above me said is there any place in the new testament where the Bible command us to pay tithe?

2. many pastors now offer special prayer/handshake/annointing specifically for those paying their tithe. In my former Church the pastor will ask people who are paying their tithe to come out every sunday for special prayer and annointing, this act is a way of bulying other members to try and give next time to enable them become partakers of these blessings/special annointing.

3. I soon found out that going to former church was more like a routine then I decided one day to stop going, many of the present day churches no longer care about the poor and less privileged among them instead of raing money or using the available funds to help the sick, old members who can't cater for themselves or even widows they raise money to buy properties after properties and I keep wondering why many of these churches need all these properties for and for who's benefit.

I[b] hate hate hate [/b]this.
They forget that this should not be out of compulsion but by what people have apportioned in their heart to give.
It shows they don't trust God enough to provide for them without resorting to low-balling.

Just this weekend I was at one such gathering for a visit. It was an event. I had already decided I would give something within my heart. But then this man got up and started asking that those who can write $1000 cheque to stand up so he can give them a "special prayer". This got me on cringe mode level 5. He then didn't stop there, he made the thing sound like an auction for blessings and spent a good 30 minutes(no exxageration) or more on the subject. He went on to pretty much insult the people who weren't standing up. Words like "How can you come to the house of god without your chequebook?" was just one of the many things that left this man's mouth. My cringe mode was level 10 at that point. If not that I drove a family there, I would have left promptly.

At the end of the day, the one I had already intended to give, I ended up not giving it because of the carnality of the guy on the pulpit.
Imagine if I had invited a new convert over or someone who I was ministering to, I would be soooo ashamed.

@2buff

true talk. another thing is this, these guest pastors have nothing to teach except tithe, giving, offering, blessings, and all that. there is a kind of mind control here. you are a member of the church, why would you attack the guest pastor because he wants you to give all your money to the church, is it not your church? but people fail to see he's trying to raise more money for his pay off, coz these guest pastors are paid in hundreds of thousands of naira in nigeria, and some in millions when they come minister in your church.

I can see that "REASON" is taking hold in some constructive minds.

@2buff--nice observation

I once witnessed a "Man of God" telling us to give whatever valuables we have on even if we don't have money. I was thinking "what is going on"? people were dropping their wristwatches, shoes, and materail stuffs. It was like magic. There was smooth music playing in the background and a lovely choir mesmerizing the atmosphere.

People kept on dropping stuffs. Then he also used the "aution" method. Started with a significant amounts and worked his way down. Apparently these were "pledges". Am thinking plegdes for what? after collecting tithes and offerings now pledges, wth

The funny part was when he said God told him ten people must pledged £1000, he confidently said "no more than ten", "ushers, make sure no more than ten", I was thinking so what happens to the 11th person? 

I concluded. This is manipulation in the name of God. Someone said on this forum---Same hustle different methods

^^It disgusts me.

there are certain churches I know never to send a new believer in the faith.
I can go wherever I want and know not to be manipulated like that because I've been given the grace to have READ my bible.
But I feel for these younger ones in the faith.

$1000 is really not much to me. and I have given much more to people in need.
and sometimes, if God has already put it in my heart to give something large that day, but the pulpit guy figures he needs to do that whole annoying stand-up thing, I always stay seated, but still give what I already had the heart to give. Why turn me into a pharisee who gives so that the world can see? essentially robbing me of my REAL blessing from the Lord?

But that guy's own this weekend was just too much. they got nothing.

@paris 10 i can sense u Raelian by birth. Please visit www.rael.org u will be shocked u did.

Looks like the spirit of the devil has possessed you, bro! How dare you think for yourself? You keep thinking like this and you will end up outside the protection of the church and on your own. Do you want that?

paris10: Lately, I found Church going so boring and very predictable. The same old story. Trend continued every Sunday! Choir sing, Pastor calls out those with testimonies, Pastor testify self as a perfect example of those blessings, and so on. At the end of the day, the sermon is gonna end up with either '5 or 10' things you must do to get blessed or get rich.

The funny part is, when you get on the internet, either on yahoo or hotmail page, you see the same "5 or 10" things to do before you get rich. Secular people have always followed these latter simple steps and are reaping the benefit. But come to think about it, these steps doesn't even include TITHING. Secular people understand the power behind getting rich. You don't even have to be a Xtian to get blessed or rich. It all boils down to CHARITY (which comes in form of an offering, either to a Church, group or individual).

The difference between a Xtian and an non-believer is the belief they hold. Aside from the belief, all factors, mode,,steps and ways of getting rich or blessed remain same. Christians are not in any way better financially than non-Xtians or unbelievers. Just unfortunate that most of our Pastors have brainwashed many in relation to making money. Is it me or that the reason many go to Church is to be better off financially? I love to go to Church to worship God and sing those beautiful heavenly songs to HIM, that's just me!

Praise and Worship time is getting smaller and smaller, and longer hours for sermon. Half of the sermon is now used in emphasising the reason to pay tithe. In my Church, the Pastor preached for 60 minutes on tithe alone, and that was just part one. The next sunday, part two was preached. I got so bored and irritated. I noticed a lot of my friends and some members of the congregation were'nt pleased as well. The problem is, we have the consciousness that something ain't right somewhere, but we lack boldness and audacity to dare mention it. We were under a kinda spell and shadow. Church obedience and service had consumed us.

The man of God to us then was always perfect and was always getting everything spot on.

To be continued,  Need to pick up my sweet heart from the salon

This is what i ve been saying about most churches and their money money preaching but each time i mention it people here will quickly quote judge not. Think of how many people who are also in your situation and have stopped goog to church yet when somebody raises the issue here, ignorant people will start talking rubbish. Quite a pity.

Jenwitemi: Looks like the spirit of the devil has possessed you, bro! How dare you think for yourself? You keep thinking like this and you will end up outside the protection of the church and on your own. Do you want that?

Hey bro... That is a very very harsh way to pass the message of life to someone in need of life to Resurrect the downcast. Sorry to say but if i were in his shoes which i do fall in sometimes, he will need not just a message of goodwill but a prayer as well to boost his identity.

And to you brother who created this page, i totally agree with your spirit right now and it seems that the whole charade is a scam. It is so easy for the logical mind to make us go away from our understanding and focus on the emptiness that we all have and in the real sense, we cannot get through with life without facing these emptiness but we must succeed with God on our side if we reverence him as we should always by seeking for more of him in all we do, at work, at home, in our friendship, in our marriage, in our shopping, in our businesses, in our churches, in our investments, in our houses, in our homes, in our relationships, in our conversation and so on.

We can only attaining success if we run after it and as the word of the Lord reminds us, draw nearer unto God and he will draw nearer to upu and he will open his windows and pour forth the blessings of heaven as it will overtake you as well...

Brethren, there is no batter peace than the peace that comes from the heart of the father and if God seeks to lead us, he has not given up on us all at all. He intends to brings us to the position that is due us and we must be willing to set ourselves up for the challenges that comes in trials and tribulation but simply going on our knees and calling upon the name of the Lord for his guidance and leadership in this race to win the world...

Salvation has been the confusion of the world's Christians today, if we focus on salvation only, we will surely always be remorseful and seeking for always the mercy of the Lord, but if our focus is higher, we will find it difficult to fall back to remorse... Focus on winning the world back to Christ no matter where you find yourself, make Jesus Christ your role model in the way you talk,(yes or no) the way you think, the way you make friends, the way you run business, the way you handle your office jobs, the way you respond to depression and so on...

Just make Jesus your role model and honor the pastors in your church, you can help them as well by praying for them and if need be, ask them questions that comes from deep desires to know God more... These open the portal of God in the ministers spirit and bring awareness of God's nature within their thinking as well if the ever were going the opposite directions but never ever castigate your church leaders or speak evil against them cause they have been placed above you and you must honor and pray for them...