MaxInDHouse:
Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. Hebrews 11:1

The analysis of this definition:
@ ASSURED EXPECTATIONS
@ WHAT IS HOPED FOR
@ EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION
@ REALITIES THAT ARE NOT SEEN

© We can't see God physically so to prove we have faith in the person we can't see we must keep in expectation of what this person has said as written in the scriptures! Habakkuk 2:3

© Our hope must bring us delight always just as a hungry person is delightfully waiting and savouring the smell of the food a chef is cooking for him.

© Through the way you are getting prepared as you sit down with your spoon, fork and other cutleries with full anticipation.

© Anyone seeing you can be convinced that you have something to eat even though they can't see the food yet.

For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them! Hebrews 11:2

This is exactly how faithful men in ancient times proved their faith not that they're seeing God physically. So if you're claiming you too have faith like them then know that they are WITNESSES {Hebrews 12:1} that the God you want to worship is alive therefore you must exercise the same patience like them!

Here you are again my friend. You are not far from the truth. But your brother, my sibling, one of JWs once told me that God no longer do miracles. He said those things perished with the Apostles.

What's your take on this?

MightySparrow:

Here you are again my friend. You are not far from the truth. But your brother, my sibling, one of JWs once told me that God no longer do miracles. He said those things perished with the Apostles.
What's your take on this?

MightySparrow:

I told you I don't debate atheists. I don't.

Come back and we'll chat when you have faith!

MightySparrow:


Yọu are here again my friend.

Christianity is about miracle from creation to the resurrection of saints. In between cannot be less.

Can you now see why no christians think the way you think; reason the way you reason.

You are not part of us.

That's the reason you bring confusion to our thread s.

Do you want to become a Christian?

Why will i want to be what no notable person in the Bible was?
Which from Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Noah, Elijah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Solomon, David, Joseph, Enoch, etc. were Christians?

I prefer being anti-Christian.

AntiChristian:


Why will i want to be what no notable person in the Bible was?
Which from Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Noah, Elijah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Solomon, David, Joseph, Enoch, etc. were Christians?

I prefer being anti-Christian.

Which of these was a Muslim?

waldigit:
Ability to perceive what your physical senses can't

That is far from the definition God Himself gave when He described Abraham in Genesis 26 vs 5. Faith has nothing to do with your ability to perceive but instead has to do with the way one lives one's life.

Kobojunkie:
That is far from the definition God Himself gave when He described Abraham in Genesis 26 vs 5. Faith has nothing to do with your ability to perceive but instead has to do with the way one lives one's life.

I hope you are not confusing things. How you live your life as scripture puts it has to do with " fruits of the Spirit, and faith is just one of them. The most popular definition in Hebrew 11:1,2Cor5:7,Rm 10:17 all relates faith to physical senses. Faith is a perception with a form of sensor that is beyond physical. Going by your statement even, how you live your life is influenced by your deep inner conviction, which is faith.

waldigit:
■ I hope you are not confusing things. How you live your life as scripture puts it has to do with " fruits of the Spirit, and faith is just one of them.
■ The most popular definition in Hebrew 11:1,
■ 2Cor5:7,
■ Rm 10:17 all relates faith to physical senses. Faith is a perception with a form of sensor that is beyond physical. Going by your statement even, how you live your life is influenced by your deep inner conviction, which is faith.

1. I am afraid this is the wrong summation on your part. If you head back to the teachings of Jesus Christ, He explained in the context of John 15 vs 1 - 11 that the bearing of fruits comes as a result of abiding in Him — living a life of faith, in continuous submission and obedience to His teachings and commandments, the Truth of God. You must first submit to and obey His teachings to know the Truth(The Spirit of Truth indicated here)and be set free from slavery to sin by the Truth(Spirit of Truth) - John 8 vs 31 - 44 - before you can even begin to bear fruits in Jesus Christ because a sinner cannot bear fruits that are of Jesus Christ. Without faith, it is impossible to please God meaning you need to acquire and implement faith in your life continuously in order to get to where you can begin to please God and bear fruits.

2. First, contrary to what many may like to believe, Hebrews 11 vs 1 does not contain a definition of the word faith . Rather what the writer does in the context is attempts a figurative comparison of faith with the evidence/substance, the promises of God, that come as a result of ir. Faith itself is not defined in the context of that passage. For this reason, the word faith, in the context, is used about efforts made by such a person as Abraham while pointing out the evidence/benefits that resulted from such effort.

God Himself explained what the word faith means in Genesis 26 vs 5 when He pointed out that the reason why He made a promise to Abraham had to do with the fact that Abraham lived his life in submission and obedience of His, God's, teachings and commandments - Faith. God gave that as the one and the only reason why He made Abraham His friend. This offer we observe Jesus Christ makes with all those of His followers who will do as He says - John 15 vs 9 -14 — those who will submit to and obey His teachings and commandments in the Kingdom of God. So, there you have it. Faith refers to living one's life in continuous submission and obedience to God's commandments and teachings, and in our case, in Jesus Christ. This definition is observed as being used in the Old Testament as well as in the New Covenant by Jesus Christ Himself.

3. I am not a fan of attempts at trying to use Paul to usurp Jesus Christ in His own Kingdom, but please, rather than get carried away with what amounts to soundbites where verses are pulled out of context to assert a meaning that is different from that which the author intended, I suggest instead that you cultivate the habit of allowing the author speak for himself.

1. We know that our body—the tent we live in here on earth—will be destroyed. But when that happens, God will have a home for us to live in. It will not be the kind of home people build here. It will be a home in heaven that will continue forever.
2 But now we are tired of this body. We want God to give us our heavenly home.
3 It will clothe us and we will not be naked.
4 While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life.
5 This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.
6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord.
7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see.
8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.
9 Our only goal is to always please the Lord, whether we are living here in this body or there with him.
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body. - 2 Corinthians 5 vs 1 - 10

Paul makes no claim of faith relating to physical senses as you claim. The idea that to believe simply means to mentally assent to an idea is not of scripture but of the imaginings of men in their many doctrines. Also in verse 7, Paul does not claim that one first has to bear fruit before one can live by faith in God. According to Jesus Christ, the Spirit of God, mentioned in verse 5, only comes by way of living one's life in continuous submission and obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ - John 14 vs 15 - 24. There is no way around that.

waldigit:
■ Rm 10:17 all relates faith to physical senses. Faith is a perception with a form of sensor that is beyond physical. Going by your statement even, how you live your life is influenced by your deep inner conviction, which is faith.

4. To understand what Paul means, one first need be aware of Paul's audience which is made clear in verse one, the people of Israel.

1 Brothers and sisters, what I want most is for all the people of Israel to be saved. That is my prayer to God.
2 I can say this about them: They really try hard to follow God, but they don’t know the right way.
3 They did not know the way that God makes people right with him. And they tried to make themselves right in their own way. So they did not accept God’s way of making people right.
4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God.
5 Moses writes about being made right by following the law. He says, “The person who obeys these laws is the one who will have life through them.”
6 But this is what the Scriptures say about being made right through faith: “Don’t say to yourself, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’” (This means “Who will go up to heaven to get Christ and bring him down to earth?”)
7 “And don’t say, ‘Who will go down into the world below?’” (This means “Who will go down to get Christ and bring him up from death?”)
8 This is what the Scripture says: “God’s teaching is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.” It is the teaching of faith that we tell people.
9 If you openly say, “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from death, you will be saved.
10 Yes, we believe in Jesus deep in our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we openly say that we believe in him, and so we are saved.
11 Yes, the Scriptures say, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disappointed.”
12 It says this because there is no difference between those who are Jews and those who are not. The same Lord is the Lord of all people. And he richly blesses everyone who looks to him for help.
13 Yes, “everyone who trusts in the Lord[d] will be saved.”
14 But before people can pray to the Lord for help, they must believe in him. And before they can believe in the Lord, they must hear about him. And for anyone to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them.
15 And before anyone can go and tell them, they must be sent. As the Scriptures say, “How wonderful it is to see someone coming to tell good news!”
16 But not all the people accepted that good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?”
17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News. And people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ. - Romans 10 vs 1 - 17

Now, to the meaning of Paul's assertion in verse 17, first we need to understand the meaning of the word faith as used in scripture, and a good place to start is by examining the life of Abraham or that which endeared Abraham to God. According to God, in Genesis 26 vs 5, it was Abraham's living his life in submission and obedience to God's Law and statutes that endeared him, Abraham, to God. Yes, Faith refers to living one's life in continuous submission and obedience to God's Law — a life of obedience to God is what a life of faith entails.

Now Paul's submission in Romans 2 insists that hearing(auditory perception) of God's law alone does not endear one to God, but rather the doing of the Law is what makes one right with God. And doing of God's Law — obedience to God's teachings and commandments — is what we know from examining the case of Abraham — is what Faith is in fact about.

12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.
13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.
14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. - Romans 2 vs 12 - 14

Putting this together, we can then see that Paul's statement in verse 17 does not simply imply that one is endeared to God via the simple auditory perception of God's Law but rather that the process begins with the auditory perception of God's Law after which must then be followed by continuous obedience in order to be made right with God. Paul is insisting that the Good news needs to be told to the people in order for the people to at least hear the Law, after which they then make the decision of their own to follow or not follow that which they have heard with obedience. So, basically, Paul is simply advocating for aggressive preaching of the Good News to all the people of Israel in order that they might at least hear the Truth of God and as many of them who choose to obey after hearing can be saved in the end.

Also of importance to note is the fact that this letter written by Paul, like all of his other letters, does not contain or address the details --- the terms and conditions . I.e the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ---- of the Gospel, God's Law in the Kingdom of God. Those who cling to loose interpretations of the words of Paul in place of the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ cannot be said to be living in faith as the Gospel refers to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Law, and Truth in the Kingdom of God.