Enigma:

^^ Indeed! Also, I actually wanted to mention that I agree with the post by Claus above that in saying "correct pattern" I do not think the man was referring to doctrine but to styles/mode of/in services etc.

nlMediator:

^^

I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Every church believes it has the correct doctrinal pattern. Otherwise, what sense does it make to continue in a doctrinal pattern you don't believe is the correct one? The pastor's job is to find the right one and follow it. Where the problem is on whether a pastor is humble enough and willing to change what he thought was correct upon the instruction of the Holy Spirit, Scriptures or Godly and scripture-based counsel from other ministers.

More important, the pastor here is not making a big deal of his church's doctrinal pattern. If anything, he's de-emphasizing it by telling people not to insist on worshipping in a church affiliated to them if they find that spiritually unhealthy. I think you'd have a beter leg to stand on if he insisted that people remain in the church because, after all, they're the only ones with the right pattern. But he did no such thing. Unlike some pastors that issue veiled or open threats to members that blessing can only be obtained under their ministry and those leaving are toying with failure.

My question exactly:

[list]
[li]Telling his audience that his church CFC has the correct pattern, doesnt it sound like boasting?[/li]
[li]Since he feels his church CFC has the correct pattern that other churches maynot have, why then is he telling his members to go elsewhere?, doesnt that amount to trying to look good before them?, like what good teacher would tell his students to go a poor feeding home?. . .like puuuullllllleeeeaaaaasssseeeee spare me! [/li]
[/list]

Proverbs 16:2 Every man wants to seem innocent  , but motives are weighed by the LORD

Enigma:

^^ I would say that from the man's tone and body language he clearly did not mean "correct pattern like we have"  in a particularly boastful manner; I think I would even go as far as saying he was dismissive, in a sense of their own, "correct pattern". I read him as saying "what we think or what we see as correct pattern". His hands were even in the air when he said "correct pattern" ------ though not clearly depicting quotation marks but readable as doing so or indicating a loose use of "correct pattern". In any event, the man said a lot of far far more important things.

Enigma:

In any event, the man said a lot of far far more important things.

2buff:

^^ Abi oo. As I said earlier, It was mentioned in a "current-audience-referential" manner.
But some people just love running off-point to keep the thread long. 

ogajim:

You guys keep wasting your time on Tonye-tithe was seems to have somehow picked up the gauntlet for Pastor JoAgbaje,

I would like to see an American or Nigerian prosperity preacher flat out tell it like Zack Poonen is doing on this video, Tonye seems to have found a problem with a preacher of this caliber who is SECURE enough to tell viewers to go where your spirit leads you even if it is NOT CFC.

Pay to play "gospel" is on it's LAST go around because this grand DECEPTION must be defeated.

Tonye-t:

Making a mountain out of mole hill is one step to decoding fallasies from false teachers. . .ignoring on the other side is one reason deception abounds in Christianity today. Quote me!

Guess what? maybe I should quote the entire phrase here and let you guys judge better:

". . .If you find another church there maybe another Pentecostal church or charismatic church where you find the pastor maybe they don’t have the correct pattern like we have the pastor is a god fearing man challenges you to be a good disciple. . . "

My question exactly:

[list]
[li]Telling his audience that his church CFC has the correct pattern, doesnt it sound like boasting?[/li]
[li]Since he feels his church CFC has the correct pattern that other churches maynot have, why then is he telling his members to go elsewhere?, doesnt that amount to trying to look good before them?, like what good teacher would tell his students to go a poor feeding home?. . .like puuuullllllleeeeaaaaasssseeeee spare me! [/li]
[/list]

Proverbs 16:2 Every man wants to seem innocent , but motives are weighed by the LORD

I dont have a beef over what Zach taught, besides i aint surprised that no one seem to be seeing anything wrong in the guys exhortations. What we fail to see or understand is that "one strategy fake teachers uses is the art of making their words sound appealing to their audience" they'll want to make you see them as good, but guess what they are adultresses trained in the art of seduction.

Prov. 5:3 - "For the lips of an adulteress drip honey, and her speech is smoother than oil"

You see his words as unintentional or harmless. . .i see it as intentional and worthy of creating harm. For Christ sake, tell me you dont see such gimmicks playing in our churches everyday?

. A few excerpts from the video ;

“my loyalty is not with CFC, my loyalty is with Jesus Christ” ( Right or wrong, where should a Christian's loyalty lie?)

“ I want people to be disciples of Jesus”

“ If CFC becomes a denomination, I tell you, I’ll have nothing to do with it”

“ Denominations get corrupt” (True or false)

“The lord is not connected to CFC, The lord is connected to people who love him” (True or false)

“The lord is not connected to any denomination” (True or false)

Mr Joagbaje called this man an Ignorant Man for reasons beyond comprehension, yet he is an advocate of "touch not my anointed" when the issues of Nigerian Fraudsters are concerned.

(Religionism at its best)

I wonder which yardstick is used in measuring who a Man of God is?   

 I wonder how many Nigerian Pastors can utter the statements this man has made.

Myopic view?? lol   , pls stop redefining words

@Frosbel, he will be more surprised by this 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLs6oVZCcPg&feature=player_embedded
Report to moderator     Logged

Tonye-t:

. . .recall we've not visited the 1:52 and 3:44

Joagbaje:


[flash=200,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLs6oVZCcPg&feature=player_[/flash]

. . . He went ahead to say that Jesus or the apostles never taught on physical healing and material prosperity .

That's what I was referring to as ignorance , I quoted the wrong video. Jesus taught on healing and prosperity. Jesus died to give us dominion in life. Over sin ,sickness , poverty ,failure, death , and all the works of Satan. You can't say you will dwell on sin only. And besides , those who major on this Sin message mostly teach wrongly . You don't get people off sin by emphasising on sin. You get people off sin by teaching righteousness consciousness . Let people know who they are in christ . Let them know how to walk in the spirit.

Tonye-t:

^^^ just look at yourself! how else should i describe you know: hypocritic or confused?

nlMediator:

Glad that you're back. Do you mind answering my earlier question as to whether you believe your church has an incorrect doctrinal pattern?

This is a very dumb question  . . . why wont my church have correct doctrinal pattern? Besides this question has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

If you must know so as to retrace your views again, my beef is "why would Zach Pooen advice his members to attend churches that he believes have incorrect doctrinal pattern" is he doing it to look good before them?. . .because why would someone who makes you think he cares advice you to go attend a church that he "believes" does not have "correct pattern". Isnt that trying to be hypocritical? 

Now answer the question 

2buff:

^^
If someone tells you "you will be prosperous in Jesus name".

Do you say "Yes. and may I be so rich that I forget God Amen" or "God forbid!" or do you say "Yes. And may I be used by Him to bless others".

I mean why would you choose evil?
Remember, it is what you declare with your mouth, that is what you will meet in the future.

Tonye-t:

This is a very dumb question  . . . why wont my church have correct doctrinal pattern? Besides this question has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

If you must know so as to retrace your views again, my beef is "why would Zach Pooen advice his members to attend churches that he believes have incorrect doctrinal pattern" is he doing it to look good before them?. . .because why would someone who makes you think he cares advice you to go attend a church that he "believes" does not have "correct pattern". Isnt that trying to be hypocritical? 

Now answer the question 

Tonye-t:

^^^ wrong Sir!

Individuals have the freedom to perceive something as right or wrong. . .If someone says "Jesus Christ" would i be wrong if I insinuate they meant saying "Lord Jesus Christ"? or on a more lame view if i heard someone saying seun's site is "nairaland" would my insinuation be wrong if i say he meant saying "www.nairaland.com"?

com'on?

Zach Pooen's views were this [I quote in paraphrase] - 'brethren if you go to a place and maybe they dont have the "correct" pattern that we have. . .I advise you if you feel like still worshiping with them you can go ahead'. . . what does Zach Pooen mean by that phrase - "correct pattern"?

2. when someone uses the term 'pattern' in a church-background, is it not the same thing as saying 'doctrine' as a religious jargon?

3. Why does he feel/think/percieve/believe that his church CFC has a 'correct pattern' and others dont?

4. Now let's just say he was right to assume his church CFC has the 'correct pattern' and others dont. Why would a supposed caring shepherd advice ADVISE  his members to attend a fake church? isnt that hypocritical or maybe he was trying to be perceived as 'good'.

^{so much for the 'self righteous teachers and their seductive tares that grow with the real wheats.}

Tonye-t:

This is a very dumb question . . . why wont my church have correct doctrinal pattern? Besides this question has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

If you must know so as to retrace your views again, my beef is "why would Zach Pooen advice his members to attend churches that he believes have incorrect doctrinal pattern" is he doing it to look good before them?. . .because why would someone who makes you think he cares advice you to go attend a church that he "believes" does not have "correct pattern". Isnt that trying to be hypocritical?

Now answer the question

Claus:

Claus link=topic=751661.msg9223019#msg9223019 date=1317047320:

The essence of the message, which in my opinion is about being more loyal to Christ than to a ministry, would be a much better topic of discussion.

As I have mentioned many times in this post, Zac Poonen made no reference to doctrine. "