tbaba1234:

Destroyed what argument

1. first of all, Faithfreedom is hardly a site for authentic islamic information.
Even translations that use "beat" as the translation of daraba always put "lightly" in the parenthesis to show the correct application of the word, you can NOT cause physical harm to your wife. Ofcourse, you fail to acknowledge that. You also fail to acknowledge that the Quran does not promote a reactionary response to the actions of the wife but details steps that must be taken before touching your wife and when it does, It only allows a light response.

The point is straightforward, you will not find any ancient muslim scholar that promotes spousal abuse. Ibn kathir, Ibn abbass It is not a modernist idea that muslim should not hurt their wives. So whether it is translated as a light "hit" or a gentle "tap". It does not mean start throwing punches at your wife.


2.) Again you look at one angle... As a man i can argue that the fact that all the financial responsibilty of the household rests on me is unfair. Remember what ever a muslim woman earns belongs to her alone and she can spend it on her parents, herself, her friends whatever... She is not compelled to contribute a dime to the house.

Not only do i have to take care of my home, i am responsible for my mother and sisters that are unmarried if there is no other man.

A muslim woman does not pray in her menses but gets the reward of one who does>>> That must be unfair tooo....

The fact is simple, a non-muslim man does not guarantee the rights of a muslim woman.

A muslim man has the religious obligation to fulfill those rights.

3.The existence of the Quran in Arabic is actually the proof of its divine origins... Understanding the deep meaning and miracles of the Quran is essential. Translations are shallow at best. So even if i read the translation, i have the arabic reference to show what it really means in the language of the prophet it was revealed to.

On the other hand, old testament manuscripts are in Hebrew, Moses did not speak hebrew

New testament in greek, Jesus spoke aramaic::

A lot of essence is lost in the translation of these books and a lot of interpolation have taken place as a result..

So the Quran in Arabic is one of its biggest strengths.

4.Every translator can only capture some part of the meaning of the word not its full meaning: That is why a reference to the original is vital.

Stop being a child... these your shallow points make you scream boom...

Islam has answers to all the questions and you do not have to like it....

1)Simple solution. Put forward the 5 best/most respected translations on the verse 4;34.

2)My points are not shallow. Hypocrisy exists in the Koran and muslim men. Explain why my Pakistani butcher will frown at me having a muslim girlfriend and be quoting Koran for her not to follow me but the guy will toast my christian sister to death.

3)The Koran is not divine. They borrowed the Adam and Eve story that is a lie. Even you dont believe the Adam an eve story

4) There are women that control family affairs. My mom does that even better than my dad when he travels out the country. Have you heard of matriarchs that control the family?

LagosShia:

the verse says that men are maintainers of women because of what Allah has given one over the other.islamically,it is the duty of the man to maintain trhe family through providing sustenance.the woman has no responsibility to work or provide feeding or clothing or shelter.there is no where based on that that the verse says men are "superior" as you want to make it sound.

now let me go a step further and accept for argument's sake that men are allowed to literally strike or beat their wives only on one condition and after two other steps presented as measures to be taken fail and ofcourse if the man still has interest in living with that woman after he misconduct.the verse clearly puts a condition that the man can strike the wife if she is doing an indescent act of shame or misconduct.and even if she is,he can only raise his hand to beat her after two measures are taken without effect.the man must first warn her verbally and then he separates bed with her avoiding intimacy.yet still in this situation,the verse is proposing settlement and reconciliation rather than divorce,an option not given.the verse still sees the hope of salvaging the marriage and bringing the strayed party to sense.the verse doesn't suggest the man kicking the woman out of his house and separating her from her children.the verse suggests three calculated steps that should be taken.now you as a non-muslim man,what would you do if you find your wife with another man in a compromising situation? are you going to first tell her:"honey,please stop this thing you are doing.i dont like it".then you find her in that situation again and come home to separate rooms with her and avoid intimacy.and lastly you find her in the same situation for the third time and you finally give her a hot slap.are those the steps you as a non-muslim man would take? what would you do? would you take those steps given in the Quran or would you beat the hell out of her and send her to her father's house disgracing her? which proposition is more merciful to the woman,in giving her chances to warn her and saving her image and marriage by not divorcing her or directly dealing with her severely and absolving the marriage? or would you just be talking and talking while she refuses to heed your warning? will you accept living with her? how many non-muslim men have battered their wives?were they following Islam?i dont think so!!! if the man afterall does not want to continue living with her,or if she no longer wants to fulfill her own part in the marriage as a contract between two people,then there is easily the option of divorce.ofcourse,if i am to repeat yet again,the verse is suggesting ways for positive change to reconcile two people than proposing separation as a direct order.

Your brainwashing is very strong. However, what are the actions in islam for a woman to deal with a misbehaving husband?


Btw are you a man or a woman?

1. You need to look at the commentary of the author and it will be cleared up. I will also show you the opinions of ancient scholars.

As to those women on whose part you see ill¬conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great - English (Dr moshin)

Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their, beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (yusuf Ali)

So, the righteous women are obedient, (and) guard (the property and honor of their husbands) in (their) absence with the protection given by Allah. As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. 19 Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest. Translation by mufti taqi usman ( he gave a commentary that explained what "beat" is)

Tafsirs (commentary) of the QURAN BY ANCIENT SCHOLARS from the time of the prophet

Ibn abbass (a companion of prophet Mohammed)

As for those from whom ye fear) know (rebellion) their disobedience to you in bed, (admonish them) by means of sacred knowledge and the Qur'an (and banish them to beds apart) turn your faces away from them in bed, (and scourge them) in a mild, unexaggerated manner. (Then if they obey you) in bed, (seek not a way against them) as regards love.

Ibn Jalalyn ( Year: 1459)

admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds].

Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

A light hit.

That is five form the translation and commentary...

Note: picktal (another popular translation) uses the word "scourge" but commentaries explain what that means.


2.you and this your GF sef....

3.The Adam and Eve story in the Quran is different in many ways: I do believe it wholeheartedly because the muslim version makes a lot more sense. I will start a thread on that soon. Trust me if you know a little about the Quran, you will be swept off your feet or at the very least appreciative of its literary prowess. I am still at an elementary stage and by Allah, i have been amazed time and time again. The only conclusion for me is a divine origin.

4. The traditional roles are that the man takes care of the financial needs of the home. The important thing is that they work as a partnership to make the home work.

The Quran states: "They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them" (Noble Quran 2:187)




-

logicboy:


Your brainwashing is very strong. However, what are the actions in islam for a woman to deal with a misbehaving husband?


Btw are you a man or a woman?

For a woman, she can seek peaceful reconciliation or a peaceful separation

"And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better. And human inner-selves are swayed by greed. But if you do good and keep away from evil, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. "(4:128)

tbaba1234: 1. You need to look at the commentary of the author and it will be cleared up. I will also show you the opinions of ancient scholars.

As to those women on whose part you see ill¬conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great - English (Dr moshin)

Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their, beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (yusuf Ali)

So, the righteous women are obedient, (and) guard (the property and honor of their husbands) in (their) absence with the protection given by Allah. As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. 19 Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest. Translation by mufti taqi usman ( he gave a commentary that explained what "beat" is)

Tafsirs (commentary) of the QURAN BY ANCIENT SCHOLARS from the time of the prophet

Ibn abbass (a companion of prophet Mohammed)

As for those from whom ye fear) know (rebellion) their disobedience to you in bed, (admonish them) by means of sacred knowledge and the Qur'an (and banish them to beds apart) turn your faces away from them in bed, (and scourge them) in a mild, unexaggerated manner. (Then if they obey you) in bed, (seek not a way against them) as regards love.

Ibn Jalalyn ( Year: 1459)

admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds].

Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

A light hit.

That is five form the translation and commentary...

Note: picktal (another popular translation) uses the word "scourge" but commentaries explain what that means.


2.you and this your GF sef....

3.The Adam and Eve story in the Quran is different in many ways: I do believe it wholeheartedly because the muslim version makes a lot more sense. I will start a thread on that soon. Trust me if you know a little about the Quran, you will be swept off your feet or at the very least appreciative of its literary prowess. I am still at an elementary stage and by Allah, i have been amazed time and time again. The only conclusion for me is a divine origin.

1) Therefore, I am right. The translations are; beat, scourge, hit or strike. End of story.

2) You have forgotten young love, old man.

3)That may be true, sometimes the Koran makes more sense than the bible. It would be helpful if you can give a short summary of Adam and Eve in the Koran

tbaba1234:

For a woman, she can seek peaceful reconciliation or a peaceful separation

"And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better. And human inner-selves are swayed by greed. But if you do good and keep away from evil, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. "(4:128)

So, the woman is not allowed to hit the husband lightly

logicboy:


1) Therefore, I am right. The translations are; beat, scourge, hit or strike. End of story.

2) You have forgotten young love, old man.

3)That may be true, sometimes the Koran makes more sense than the bible. It would be helpful if you can give a short summary of Adam and Eve in the Koran

1. These actions are qualified so that is a simplistic way of putting it.

2 I am a young person too... Do not give me old age yet.

3. soon.

See, Islam is much much bigger than me. There is nothing i can say that can discredit it...

tbaba1234:

1. These actions are qualified so that is a simplistic way of put it.

2 I am a young person too... Do not give me old age yet.

3. soon.

See, Islam is much much bigger than me. There is nothing i can say that can discredit it...

Are you not married?


As for the Adam and Eve story, I eagerly await

logicboy:
Are you not married?

Haha, not yet but soon.

Kay 17: Hmmm. . . Incriminating BUT they are not real muslims. Besides you might get banned soon for not saying good things about Islam.

They are not true Muslims? I really have a stomachache from laughing at your comment ...
They are going to ban?
Who? Why?
For publishing articles which are available on the internet?
Make you the same! If you can!
I would argue respectfully, I do not offend anyone, if I am banned for something, someone must answer ... That some fans may not accept criticism, but there are laws of international ...
With your comment you show that besides being a fan has totalitarian tendencies ...
I fear that sort of thing ... I live in a free and secular, in respecting the views of all.
Here we say "WITH THE TRUTH, I neither offend nor fear"
I hope this is a good lesson for you and for those who might think that force can be above reason.
My respect!

ijawkid: @logic mind...please what's wrong with men or husbands superior to women?


Is that not nature my freind??

Been superior doesn't mean d men shuld beat d women but that they have greater authority than women do...

And why are women inferior to men?

tbaba1234: 1. You need to look at the commentary of the author and it will be cleared up. I will also show you the opinions of ancient scholars.

As to those women on whose part you see ill¬conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great - English (Dr moshin)

Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their, beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (yusuf Ali)

So, the righteous women are obedient, (and) guard (the property and honor of their husbands) in (their) absence with the protection given by Allah. As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. 19 Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest. Translation by mufti taqi usman ( he gave a commentary that explained what "beat" is)

Tafsirs (commentary) of the QURAN BY ANCIENT SCHOLARS from the time of the prophet

Ibn abbass (a companion of prophet Mohammed)

As for those from whom ye fear) know (rebellion) their disobedience to you in bed, (admonish them) by means of sacred knowledge and the Qur'an (and banish them to beds apart) turn your faces away from them in bed, (and scourge them) in a mild, unexaggerated manner. (Then if they obey you) in bed, (seek not a way against them) as regards love.

Ibn Jalalyn ( Year: 1459)

admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds].

Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

A light hit.

That is five form the translation and commentary...

Note: picktal (another popular translation) uses the word "scourge" but commentaries explain what that means.


2.you and this your GF sef....

3.The Adam and Eve story in the Quran is different in many ways: I do believe it wholeheartedly because the muslim version makes a lot more sense. I will start a thread on that soon. Trust me if you know a little about the Quran, you will be swept off your feet or at the very least appreciative of its literary prowess. I am still at an elementary stage and by Allah, i have been amazed time and time again. The only conclusion for me is a divine origin.

4. The traditional roles are that the man takes care of the financial needs of the home. The important thing is that they work as a partnership to make the home work.

The Quran states: "They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them" (Noble Quran 2:187)




-

can a woman also hit her man "lightly" for the desired effect of obedience?

Kay 17: can a woman also hit her man "lightly" for the desired effect of obedience?

For a woman, she can seek peaceful reconciliation or a peaceful separation

"And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better. And human inner-selves are swayed by greed. But if you do good and keep away from evil, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. "(4:12

logicboy:


Do you live in Nigeria? Or you're in South America? I would love to speak spanish/portuguese

1. I thank the moderators for review of the action taken. My only mission in the forum is to give my opinion and exchange information. I'm sorry if there are people who want the only opinion is theirs.

2. Dear friend logicboy: I live in Montevideo, Uruguay (South America). I speak both languages ​​(you know that my English is very bad) and I am at your service to help you in what you deem necessary.
A respectful greeting.

logicboy:


Are you not married?


As for the Adam and Eve story, I eagerly await

if you can watch the below three videos that have to do with Adam,you will live to greatly appreciate Islam.also there is a slight difference in perspective regarding Adam (as) and his infallibility between the Shia and the Sunni.the Shia believe Adam (as) is sinless and committed no act of disobedience against God.let me post the videos,and i will give you a quick summary in another post:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuuNBIl31E&feature=relmfu



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s&feature=relmfu

Shia Muslim Interpretation of Prophet Adam (as) In the Garden

firstly,i must say that all muslims do not believe in "original sin" and each person is responsible for his or her own action.

1.) God created Adam to inhabit the earth and reproduce

2.) Adam's stay in the garden was ordained by God to be temporary,regardless of the way that would lead Adam to earth

3.) the tree Adam ate from was a divine plan and design by God to teach Adam.

4.) God telling Adam not to eat from the tree was no a legislative order as there was no shariah then.it was an advicery order.it is like when you tell your kid not to jump from a high table.if he does and injures himself,then he would learn the consequence of falling.but him jumping does not mean he has disobeyed you in a way demanding punishment afterwards.

5.) without Adam eating from the tree,Adam could not have had the power to procreate.therefore the tree is a blessing.

6.) when God told Adam not to eat from the tree or else he would be among the "zalimeen",God was telling him if he eats from the tree he would be burdened and his life of trial on earth will commence.the word "zulm" can also mean burdensome.

7.) God was able to demonstrate to Adam who his real enemy (i.e. the devil) is.Adam had never witnessed anyone lying and the devil was first.after eating from the tree,God also taught Adam the art of repentance (returning to God) when the devil tries to pull you away.from that point on,it became clear to Adam who the enemy was and how he must receive guidance from Allah.

8.) in Shia Islam all prophets,messengers,and divinely appointed imams are innocent and sinless.

Ptolomeus:
1. I thank the moderators for review of the action taken. My only mission in the forum is to give my opinion and exchange information. I'm sorry if there are people who want the only opinion is theirs.

2. Dear friend logicboy: I live in Montevideo, Uruguay (South America). I speak both languages ​​(you know that my English is very bad) and I am at your service to help you in what you deem necessary.
A respectful greeting.

Gracias amigo

LagosShia: Shia Muslim Interpretation of Prophet Adam (as) In the Garden

firstly,i must say that all muslims do not believe in "original sin" and each person is responsible for his or her own action.

1.) God created Adam to inhabit the earth and reproduce

2.) Adam's stay in the garden was ordained by God to be temporary,regardless of the way that would lead Adam to earth

3.) the tree Adam ate from was a divine plan and design by God to teach Adam.

4.) God telling Adam not to eat from the tree was no a legislative order as there was no shariah then.it was an advicery order.it is like when you tell your kid not to jump from a high table.if he does and injures himself,then he would learn the consequence of falling.but him jumping does not mean he has disobeyed you in a way demanding punishment afterwards.

5.) without Adam eating from the tree,Adam could not have had the power to procreate.therefore the tree is a blessing.

6.) when God told Adam not to eat from the tree or else he would be among the "zalimeen",God was telling him if he eats from the tree he would be burdened and his life of trial on earth will commence.the word "zulm" can also mean burdensome.

7.) God was able to demonstrate to Adam who his real enemy (i.e. the devil) is.Adam had never witnessed anyone lying and the devil was first.after eating from the tree,God also taught Adam the art of repentance (returning to God) when the devil tries to pull you away.from that point on,it became clear to Adam who the enemy was and how he must receive guidance from Allah.

8.) in Shia Islam all prophets,messengers,and divinely appointed imams are innocent and sinless.

Not a bad story. At least, it does make more sense than the bible's version.


Unfortunately.....I am an atheist

Please guys do not make me read such interesting tongue(in-cheek)-lashing again It is plain to see that whatever your beliefs are - we all tend to justify tenets of our religion based on our sense/level of moral sensitivities - not by any Holy Book. There are Peaceful Muslims who perceive and interpret the Koran even when a verse or several support and encourage actions that are Violent. we all have our limits and some have no sense of morals outside the ones dictated by Holy Books (Sad indeed)

lagerwhenindoubt: Please guys do not make me read such interesting tongue(in-cheek)-lashing again It is plain to see that whatever your beliefs are - we all tend to justify tenets of our religion based on our sense/level of moral sensitivities - not by any Holy Book. There are Peaceful Muslims who perceive and interpret the Koran even when a verse or several support and encourage actions that are Violent. we all have our limits and some have no sense of morals outside the ones dictated by Holy Books (Sad indeed)

Exactly:
In all religions (and in all walks of life) there are intelligent people and fans. At the forum, it is amazing how some people defend indefensible positions simply because of to be his religion ... Nothing is perfect ... less a religion.

Logicboy:
Gracias amigo

Por nada estimado amigo...
Sinceramente cuentas conmigo.
Un fuerte abrazo!

tbaba1234:

For a woman, she can seek peaceful reconciliation or a peaceful separation

"And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better. And human inner-selves are swayed by greed. But if you do good and keep away from evil, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. "(4:12

Why can't the woman hit the man, since hitting "lightly" is very effective?

LagosShia: Shia Muslim Interpretation of Prophet Adam (as) In the Garden

firstly,i must say that all muslims do not believe in "original sin" and each person is responsible for his or her own action.

1.) God created Adam to inhabit the earth and reproduce

2.) Adam's stay in the garden was ordained by God to be temporary,regardless of the way that would lead Adam to earth

3.) the tree Adam ate from was a divine plan and design by God to teach Adam.

4.) God telling Adam not to eat from the tree was no a legislative order as there was no shariah then.it was an advicery order.it is like when you tell your kid not to jump from a high table.if he does and injures himself,then he would learn the consequence of falling.but him jumping does not mean he has disobeyed you in a way demanding punishment afterwards.

5.) without Adam eating from the tree,Adam could not have had the power to procreate.therefore the tree is a blessing.

6.) when God told Adam not to eat from the tree or else he would be among the "zalimeen",God was telling him if he eats from the tree he would be burdened and his life of trial on earth will commence.the word "zulm" can also mean burdensome.

7.) God was able to demonstrate to Adam who his real enemy (i.e. the devil) is.Adam had never witnessed anyone lying and the devil was first.after eating from the tree,God also taught Adam the art of repentance (returning to God) when the devil tries to pull you away.from that point on,it became clear to Adam who the enemy was and how he must receive guidance from Allah.

8.) in Shia Islam all prophets,messengers,and divinely appointed imams are innocent and sinless.

The real Gods have included themselves in the scheme of things. They are the imams, prophets who are able to justify their actions and treachery with a veil of holiness and God. A man tells you he is sinless and you believe?!

C'mon!

Kay 17:

The real Gods have included themselves in the scheme of things. They are the imams, prophets who are able to justify their actions and treachery with a veil of holiness and God. A man tells you he is sinless and you believe?!

C'mon!

that is a blank cheque of generalization.their actions and treachery? which?

or is it better to believe that prophets committed ra.pe,in.cest,and adultery like those we read in the "holy bible"?

No man is perfect lagisshia. Your religion lied to you.

LagosShia:

that is a blank cheque of generalization.their actions and treachery? which?

or is it better to believe that prophets committed ra.pe,in.cest,and adultery like those we read in the "holy bible"?

Err, your prophet Mohammed dabbled in;

slavery; Rayahna and Maria al-qibityaa

Incest; Aisha

logicboy:

Err, your prophet Mohammed dabbled in;

slavery; Rayahna and Maria al-qibityaa

Incest; Aisha

you should know that there is a big difference between prisoners of war taken captives and slaves.

the issue of Aisha's age has being proven beyond doubt that she was a mature lady when the Prophet (sa) married her:

https://www.nairaland.com/846958/tell-me-why-mohammed-married

LagosShia:

you should know that there is a big difference between prisoners of war taken captives and slaves.

the issue of Aisha's age has being proven beyond doubt that she was a mature lady when the Prophet (sa) married her:

https://www.nairaland.com/846958/tell-me-why-mohammed-married

Sorry, I did not mean to write "inbreeding". I think the autocorrect changed it from "pdophilia", with regards to Aisha.

What is the difference between prisoners of war that work for you and slaves? Please, tell me.

Kay 17:

The real Gods have included themselves in the scheme of things. They are the imams, prophets who are able to justify their actions and treachery with a veil of holiness and God. A man tells you he is sinless and you believe?!

C'mon!

I agree.
The problem is not the religion that is chosen, but the people who run and / or members of that religion.
People made an image of that "god" that often has nothing to do with reality, and that distorts everything.
Many priests, pastors, prophets, they do their interpretation of events, changing reality at will, and the result is disastrous.
These same priests, pastors or prophets are given rights and powers that are above God they claim to love ...
We do not realize that it is disrespectful to that god? That in mere mortal to speak in name of God, and check rules and laws should be an offense
What power does a prophet to forgive a sin? that power has to say what it is sin and what is not?
Before doing that sort of thing, they should review their own life.