Evil Brain: Yes, God is imaginary. He doesn't exist outside the minds of those who believe in him. There is no objective way of demonstrating his existence. Neither is there any way to demonstrating his effects on the world around us.

We are now able to detect subatomic particles and measure the temperature, mass and composition of stars millions of lightyears away. Yet, no nobody can figure out a way to detect a god who is supposedly all around us and doing things everyday?

Practically all the things previously attributed to God have now been shown to have other causes. We have simple, and elegant explanations for how complex life develops from simpler forms, where earthquakes and lightning come from, and why the sun rises and sets. We also have a working (though still incomplete) theory for the origin of the universe.

The bible and the koran are full of stories of magical things God and his followers did yet all these miracles seem to have conveniently disappeared just as we gained the ability to verify them. The only miracles we see these days are performed by fraudulent TV pastors and YouTube fraudsters.

And the (developed) world now operates under the assuption that there is no god. It's only in bush places like Nigeria that people promote prayer as a means to fight terrorism, corruption or to solve economic problems. You don't see europeans praying against road accidents or the chinese praying for electricity. They install street lights, enforce seatbelt use, speed limits and ensure roadworthiness of all vehicles. They build more powerplants.

Of course, many of these people may say that they belive in God, but most of them don't act like it. And that is why their problems get solved while ours fester and stagnate.

So the proof of God must be detection? Really? So Mr. Brain prove to me you have a mind and that you think thoughts if you will.

suwailad: The only thing we know about God is what we think, can we then say he is imaginary at best explanation?

not exactly. scripture do say ' we are made in the image of God'. GENESIS 1 VS 27
so when you look in the mirror, you are looking at god

buzugee: not exactly. scripture do say ' we are made in the image of God'. GENESIS 1 VS 27
so when you look in the mirror, you are looking at god

no matter how you try to dribble it, he is at best imaginary,all in your head. No argument on earth can refute that except you have seen him land on mount sinai with your eyes not spirit eyes or dream things. Man always try to tag events and stuffs to explain God but he is still imaginary.

diluminati:
no matter how you try to dribble it, he is at best imaginary,all in your head. No argument on earth can refute that except you have seen him land on mount sinai with your eyes not spirit eyes or dream things. Man always try to tag events and stuffs to explain God but he is still imaginary.

actually he is not imaginary. he is described in the bible in the book of daniel as a black man with a white afro ( kinda like wole soyinka )

buzugee: actually he is not imaginary. he is described in the bible in the book of daniel as a black man with a white afro ( kinda like wole soyinka )

Morgan Freeman has confused you.


[img]http://akosiluis.files./2011/11/bruce_almighty.jpg[/img]

MacDaddy01:


Morgan Freeman has confused you.


[img]http://akosiluis.files./2011/11/bruce_almighty.jpg[/img]

thts exactly the way the bible described him. except morgan does not have a gold of uphaz belt around his waist. this is a case of movie imitating life.

buzugee: thts exactly the way the bible described him. except morgan does not have a gold of uphaz belt around his waist. this is a case of movie imitating life.

lmao.

Abyjah: I don't have problem with pastors, neither am I one of them. You must have heard it said that, 'one is in God's will', right? What this means is that one is like a picture that God imagined and held in His mind (the same applies to the universe). This picture is then enlivened by God's will power.
Hence, everything is an illusion created in God's mind while He is the absolute reality of these things.

An illusion created in god's mind?
laugh out loudly!
What is god smoking? You are saying that god is not a figment of our imagination but that we are a figment of god's imagination?
Interesting. this is a new one.

Lord_Reed:

So the proof of God must be detection? Really? So Mr. Brain prove to me you have a mind and that you think thoughts if you will.

Nonsense. the usual "prove to me" escapism.

Have you ever heard of cat scans? Cat scans can detect electrical activity in the brain. they can pin point when different types of thoughts like pleasure, pain or fear are flowing through your brain.
Just to point out to you that thoughts and emotions can indeed be detected and measured.

buzugee: not exactly. scripture do say ' we are made in the image of God'. GENESIS 1 VS 27
so when you look in the mirror, you are looking at god

Which god do I look like? The same scriptures also say that there are many gods and mentions and refers to them many times.
Not so?

plaetton:

Nonsense. the usual "prove to me" escapism.

Have you ever heard of cat scans? Cat scans can detect electrical activity in the brain. they can pin point when different types of thoughts like pleasure, pain or fear are flowing through your brain.
Just to point out to you that thoughts and emotions can indeed be detected and measured.

Can you discuss civilly? Thank you.

I will concede that thoughts and emotions stimulate certain areas of the brain without going technical. However can you define where the mind/personality resides?

Lord_Reed:

Can you discuss civilly? Thank you.

I will concede that thoughts and emotions stimulate certain areas of the brain without going technical. However can you define where the mind/personality resides?

Personality is not a homogenous unit. Different aspects of stimulus response and behaviour come together to form personality. We also know that different areas of the brain are responsible for handling and processing different types of stimuli. Although the brain is central processing unit for electrical stimuli, other part parts of the body like the heart and the endocrine systems also share a sympathetic relationship with the brain, and hence, contribute to what we call personality.
It has been observed that receivers of organ transplants tend to take some of the personality traits of the organ's donor.
Bottom line,DNA determines personality.

But, what is exactly your point about mind personality! Even if we cannot adequately define or localise personality or the mind, how does that prove that god is real!
It seems that anytime we are unable to understand something, we create god to fill the gap.

N:B
My apollogies.

@plaetton
Glad you can see I am leading up to something. Now in general terms men also propose a theory to explain the phenomenon around them before they actually had the tools to measure and understand what they were seeming. Many men of science have been looked as fools and madmen for daring to "believe" in things they have no physical evidence of but eventually with dogged persistence they are proved right.

Essential to proving/discovering and understanding phenomena is the design and utilization of tools. Without tools we would not understand how to build an airplane a heavier than air flying object that had been theorized hundreds of years before its actually advent.

I am not of the school of thought the God can not be found with physical tools rather I posit that we will someday when we have the right tools. Till then we who believe will continue to be like the "mad" scientists who "believed" in what they said. However we who believe do experience God in action, it may seem like a fairy tale to you because we can neither record His voice on tape nor capture His likeness on camera and where it affects us the most is even the least understood of the medical sciences.

Until those tools are made the only reliable way to measure/prove God will be by personal experience.

Lord_Reed: @plaetton
Glad you can see I am leading up to something. Now in general terms men also propose a theory to explain the phenomenon around them before they actually had the tools to measure and understand what they were seeming. Many men of science have been looked as fools and madmen for daring to "believe" in things they have no physical evidence of but eventually with dogged persistence they are proved right.

Essential to proving/discovering and understanding phenomena is the design and utilization of tools. Without tools we would not understand how to build an airplane a heavier than air flying object that had been theorized hundreds of years before its actually advent.

I am not of the school of thought the God can not be found with physical tools rather I posit that we will someday when we have the right tools. Till then we who believe will continue to be like the "mad" scientists who "believed" in what they said. However we who believe do experience God in action, it may seem like a fairy tale to you because we can neither record His voice on tape nor capture His likeness on camera and where it affects us the most is even the least understood of the medical sciences.

Until those tools are made the only reliable way to measure/prove God will be by personal experience.

This is excellent.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said here, because,it might surprise you that I feel somewhat the same way.
You see the problems and disagreement arise when theists come here trying prove the existence of god by throwing convoluted logic around.
It is great folly to attempt to prove or demonstate something that is wholly an abstract and subjective notion.

Perhaps as we further evolve over time,we may develop the physical tools or brain capacity to be able discern god in a more objective way.

But for now, my opinion, based on available tools and knowledge is that god is resident only within the sacred prescints of the human mind.

plaetton:

But for now, my opinion, based on available tools and knowledge is that god is resident only within the sacred prescints of the human mind.

So you aren't open to experiencing God for yourself?

Lord_Reed:

So you aren't open to experiencing God for yourself?

With all due respect, Experiencing god is just one of those meaningless words that people throw around.
Experiencing god like the boko haram people or alqeida! can they not be said to experiencing god in their own way!

My view is that such a subjective notion as god is completely useless in our objective reality. If believing in god can make you a better citizen of the world, then thats is good. But unfortunately, the reverse is always the case.

Lord_Reed:

So you aren't open to experiencing God for yourself?

It is a chronic and debilitating mental infection that causes so much problems for humankind.

We are witnesses to pain, terror and destruction of both the physical and mental potentials that the god-infection is causing our society.

BIG NO Thanks.

@plaetton
It is unfortunate that many have misrepresented God to you and to the world in general but I can state categorically that He is not as they have presented Him neither is He responsible for the ill behaviours of those who say they know Him.

I will still urge you to seek Him even in the quiet of your own privacy, He doesn't turn down seeking hearts.

Lord_Reed: @plaetton
It is unfortunate that many have misrepresented God to you and to the world in general but I can state categorically that He is not as they have presented Him neither is He responsible for the ill behaviours of those who say they know Him.

I will still urge you to seek Him even in the quiet of your own privacy, He doesn't turn down seeking hearts.

He he he. why does anyone need god! For what ultimate purpose! so that........!

I have long long transcended the need for an imaginary god.

If I wanna get high, there are herbs that can do that for me.

lol

For those who create this god, isn't it very obvious that the god project has been a dismal failure! Why continue to create a product that devours people's brain and robs them of their essential humanity!

plaetton:
Why continue to create a product that devours people's brain and robs them of their essential humanity!

tupac once said religion is a tool for mind control, in this I fear man the most

Lord_Reed:

So the proof of God must be detection? Really? So Mr. Brain prove to me you have a mind and that you think thoughts if you will.

I was able to read and understand OP's post and produce a coherent response that conveyed information and expressed abstract ideas. That is more than enough to pass the Turing test (google it).

And as per detecting God, Look at it this way: Even if it was impossible to see God himself, we should at least be able to see evidence of his activities. You should see unexplainable healings in church/mosque/temple. Not just the fake pastor Chris type, but undisputable things like limbs regrowing and midgets becoming taller.

Religious people should be better off in tangible, measurable ways compared to the general population. People who tithe and give large offerings should be wealthier than those who don't. And we should see the occasional old testament style miracle.

Instead, what we see is charlatans like TB Joshua making money off the devout,who incidentally are mostly made up of the poorest in society. Everywhere you look, religion is strongly correlated with poverty. And in every field of endeavour; science, medicine, economics, sports, the most successful people never those who put religion first. Instead, people have to keep their religion separate from their work if they want to compete with others.

Like I said in my last post. The world now operates under the assumption that there is no god. And humanity is far better off than it was during the dark ages when religion ruled supreme.

Double post.

@Mr. Brain
Going a bit technical the Turing test is not sufficient for an intelligence proof:

Turing, for his part, never intended his test to be used as a practical, day-to-day measure of the intelligence of AI programs; he wanted to provide a clear and understandable example to aid in the discussion of the philosophy of artificial intelligence.

Google-d.

suwailad: @Inesqor by intangible what do you mean by that?

it means he cannot be measure or detected.

plaetton:


He he he. why does anyone need god! For what ultimate purpose! so that........!

I have long long transcended the need for an imaginary god.

If I wanna get high, there are herbs that can do that for me.

lol

For those who create this god, isn't it very obvious that the god project has been a dismal failure! Why continue to create a product that devours people's brain and robs them of their essential humanity!

ha! Athiesm hasnt really helped the world has it communism and all the anti God guys turned out to be dictators, talk about a failed project. In God i have found the the meaning of life, what it truly means to live.

Lord_Reed: @Mr. Brain
Going a bit technical the Turing test is not sufficient for an intelligence proof:



Google-d.

Nobody is talking about measuring intelligence. You asked me to prove that I have a mind. The Turing test is the most recognized way of doing so, and I have passed it. If you don't understand then you need to do more googling.

Now explain why antibiotics and treatments developed by "evolutionists" and unbelievers work better than prayers? How come prayer never worked against TB, leprosy and AIDS until scientists discovered drugs for them? Why does study after double-blinded study consistently show that prayer has no statistically significant effect on treatment outcome or patient survival?

In other words, if god exists, why can't we see any sign of him doing anything?

plaetton:

This is excellent.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said here, because,it might surprise you that I feel somewhat the same way.
You see the problems and disagreement arise when theists come here trying prove the existence of god by throwing convoluted logic around.
It is great folly to attempt to prove or demonstate something that is wholly an abstract and subjective notion.

Perhaps as we further evolve over time,we may develop the physical tools or brain capacity to be able discern god in a more objective way.

But for now, my opinion, based on available tools and knowledge is that god is resident only within the sacred prescints of the human mind.

a good point, personally i think that if we insist on proving that God exist before we turn to him we may never find him becos we are trying to treat him like an intellectual problem which we can solve, define clearly, put in his place and then grant him his due. Such a god doesnt exist. We may by intellectual arguement, reach d conclusion 'therefore there must be an uncaused cause' or 'therefore there must be a necessary being and to that uncaused cause and necessary being we must give d name God', but such intellectual conclusion although it may be a useful step, does not bring us to a personal God, to d God of abraham, isaac and jacob and to the father of our lord Jesus christ. The God of the philosophers and the God of the bible may seem different to a christain, the God of the prophet is mysterious but be is also full of feeling a God of great compassion, tenderness and love, and therefore also of anger, wrath and fury when those he loves and cherishes treat one another unjustly. The God of the philosophers is remote and impersonal but the God of the prophet is like a too edged sword which pierces our inner life laying bare our inner feelings and thought, the most base as well as the most sublime.
I posit that for those for whom the arguements of the philosophers donot suffice then they must find that personal God thru a different means.
The ancients of christainity called prayer 'Heart speaking to heart'. We find God, the true, living and loving God first with our hearts and then in our minds. It is not that the heart is mindless, the heart has its reasons, but they are often hidden from our concious minds. God is a mystery and our finite minds cannot adequately grasp him. One can know a mystery and grow in d knowledge of it but the more we enter into d mystery of God the or more accurately the more the mystery of God takes hold of us, the more we realize that he is a mystery. And to know him we must do that which the scientist do he must be a working hypothesis. He must be The beckoning word that calls out of ourselves and beyond ourselves. The reason God is more frequently found in the mind is because he is a personal God, the unity in our inward being, the greek philosophers say 'the one in many'.

yes u luv all dat exist, u hold nthing of what u created in abhorrence, for had u hated anythin u would nt have made it. And how had u nt willed it, could a thing persist, how be be conserved if nt called forth by u? U spare all thing becos all things are urs, lord, lover of life, u whnse imperishable spirit is in all. Wisd. 11;24-7

a personal being at work in every human being, loves each on and is drawing each to himself.
I probably wrote too much, i hope u can bring out meaning from it.
Peace and blessings.

plaetton:

This is excellent.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said here, because,it might surprise you that I feel somewhat the same way.
You see the problems and disagreement arise when theists come here trying prove the existence of god by throwing convoluted logic around.
It is great folly to attempt to prove or demonstate something that is wholly an abstract and subjective notion.

Perhaps as we further evolve over time,we may develop the physical tools or brain capacity to be able discern god in a more objective way.

But for now, my opinion, based on available tools and knowledge is that god is resident only within the sacred prescints of the human mind.

a good point, personally i think that if we insist on proving that God exist before we turn to him we may never find him becos we are trying to treat him like an intellectual problem which we can solve, define clearly, put in his place and then grant him his due. Such a god doesnt exist. We may by intellectual arguement, reach d conclusion 'therefore there must be an uncaused cause' or 'therefore there must be a necessary being and to that uncaused cause and necessary being we must give d name God', but such intellectual conclusion although it may be a useful step, does not bring us to a personal God, to d God of abraham, isaac and jacob and to the father of our lord Jesus christ. The God of the philosophers and the God of the bible may seem different to a christain, the God of the prophet is mysterious but be is also full of feeling a God of great compassion, tenderness and love, and therefore also of anger, wrath and fury when those he loves and cherishes treat one another unjustly. The God of the philosophers is remote and impersonal but the God of the prophet is like a too edged sword which pierces our inner life laying bare our inner feelings and thought, the most base as well as the most sublime.
I posit that for those for whom the arguements of the philosophers donot suffice then they must find that personal God thru a different means.
The ancients of christainity called prayer 'Heart speaking to heart'. We find God, the true, living and loving God first with our hearts and then in our minds. It is not that the heart is mindless, the heart has its reasons, but they are often hidden from our concious minds. God is a mystery and our finite minds cannot adequately grasp him. One can know a mystery and grow in d knowledge of it but the more we enter into d mystery of God the or more accurately the more the mystery of God takes hold of us, the more we realize that he is a mystery. And to know him we must do that which the scientist do he must be a working hypothesis. He must be The beckoning word that calls out of ourselves and beyond ourselves. The reason God is more frequently found in the mind is because he is a personal God, the unity in our inward being, the greek philosophers say 'the one in many'.

yes u luv all dat exist, u hold nthing of what u created in abhorrence, for had u hated anythin u would nt have made it. And how had u nt willed it, could a thing persist, how be be conserved if nt called forth by u? U spare all thing becos all things are urs, lord, lover of life, u whnse imperishable spirit is in all. Wisd. 11;24-7

a personal being at work in every human being, loves each on and is drawing each to himself.
I probably wrote too much, i hope u can bring out meaning from it.
Peace and blessings.

Evil Brain:

Nobody is talking about measuring intelligence. You asked me to prove that I have a mind. The Turing test is the most recognized way of doing so, and I have passed it. If you don't understand then you need to do more googling.

I understand perfectly. I merely challenged your assertion that the Turing test proves you have thoughts. It does not conclusively because artificial intelligence programs have been written that pass the Turing test and even Turing himself did not advocate the test as a test for thought.

Take it as a different line of argument outside of the God question.