I can't help but wonder how nigeria n nigerians will be if we had held on to the religions of our ancestors rather than the two imported religions that has given way to the prevalence or everything bad in our societies.

I know we will want to say things like "God forbid" but truly most of the evils happening today would not be happening if people know they will receive instant judgment from the likes of Sango, Ayelala, Ogun, Amadioha etc. Imagine a pastor violating an 11yrs old girl in the name of deliverance or the common wasting of lives in the name of money rituals. I know in Yoruba land that if someone was killed unlawfully by another person, the family of the dead can summon the spirit of the dead relative to go torment n kill those that committed such evil against it hence hearing of people being killed in those days was rare but these days the family of the dead will "leave it to God to Judge".

I think all this looting by our politicians, robbing of innocent motorists by latsma or is it lastma, ritual killings, religious robbery etc are all common cos the perpetrators know they can ask GOD for forgiveness b4 they die and will be forgiven hence d dead person died in vain.

What do u guys think? I think we shd retrace our steps cos it seems these two imported religions doesn't suit us.

Please I want us to debate this as matured people. Make ur case with good points and don't let's resort to abusing ourselves. We need to move forward as a people. Since I was a todler people ve been hoping nigeria will get better, praying and fasting and now as old as I am we are still praying and fasting, that's 2 generations o. It shd n MUST stop!

Thanks.

Tisa: I can't help but wonder how nigeria n nigerians will be if we had held on to the religions of our ancestors rather than the two imported religions that has given way to the prevalence or everything bad in our societies.

No I won't agree with you...cos traditional gods are far worse than christianity and islam put together.

Maybe on good day, sit your folks down, and ask them to give you a flash back of how they worshiped their traditional gods...I'm sure that by the time they finish explaining to you the killings, the human and animal sacrifices, the unnecessary restrictions to certain places, the embargo placed on women restricting them from gaining access into certain shrines..etc. You'll have a change of heart.

Tisa: I know we will want to say things like "God forbid" but truly most of the evils happening today would not be happening if people know they will receive instant judgment from the likes of Sango, Ayelala, Ogun, Amadioha etc

And what makes you think that sango, amadioha, ogun etc worship is preferable to worshiping.

You fail to realise that God is forgiving...all others you mentioned aren't you get instant punishment for your trespasses.

God isn't bothered about your sacrifice...he wants your heart, the gods mentioned above all require human sacrifices from their subjects. Failure to keep up would lead to death.

God is very patient, he gives you time to think and make up your mind...the gods mentioned above torment you and force you to serve them.

So my dear there's no need to long for the worship of evil spirits cos believe me, they would do you more harm than good.

Tisa: Imagine a pastor violating an 11yrs old girl in the name of deliverance or the common wasting of lives in the name of money rituals. I know in Yoruba land that if someone was killed unlawfully by another person, the family of the dead can summon the spirit of the dead relative to go torment n kill those that committed such evil against it hence hearing of people being killed in those days was rare but these days the family of the dead will "leave it to God to Judge".

Haven't you heard of traditional deities whom their worshipers offer the blood of young innocent virgins constantly...for reasons best know to them.

If I may ask which evil would you tolerate of the two...a preacher violating an underage child or some traditional uneducated men using the blood of your daughters to serve their deity?

Tisa: I think all this looting by our politicians, robbing of innocent motorists by latsma or is it lastma, ritual killings, religious robbery etc are all common cos the perpetrators know they can ask GOD for forgiveness b4 they die and will be forgiven hence d dead person died in vain.

Note that evil has its way of catching up with those that perpetrate it...if you kill someone, someone else would kill you.

If dupe someone, someone else would dupe you.

A typical example was paul in the bible...he killed so many christians...and even though God forgave him, check how he died...he was beheaded. I believe that's the price he had to pay for all the evil he committed.

So in conclusion, all evil doers would be punished...it doesn't matter if you repent or not...the point to note is that you're definately going to be punished for your evil deeds.

Tisa: What do u guys think? I think we shd retrace our steps cos it seems these two imported religions doesn't suit us.

Nope I disagree with you...

Tisa: Please I want us to debate this as matured people. Make ur case with good points and don't let's resort to abusing ourselves. We need to move forward as a people. Since I was a todler people ve been hoping nigeria will get better, praying and fasting and now as old as I am we are still praying and fasting, that's 2 generations o. It shd n MUST stop!

If you're advocating for traditional worship, state your reason and why you feel it should preferred to christian and islamic worship.

Tisa: Thanks.

You're welcomed.

CrazyMan:
1. No I won't agree with you...cos traditional gods are far worse than christianity and islam put together.
Maybe on good day, sit your folks down, and ask them to give you a flash back of how they worshiped their traditional gods...I'm sure that by the time they finish explaining to you the killings, the human and animal sacrifices, the unnecessary restrictions to certain places, the embargo placed on women restricting them from gaining access into certain shrines..etc. You'll have a change of heart.

2. And what makes you think that sango, amadioha, ogun etc worship is preferable to worshiping.
You fail to realise that God is forgiving...all others you mentioned aren't you get instant punishment for your trespasses.
God isn't bothered about your sacrifice...he wants your heart, the gods mentioned above all require human sacrifices from their subjects. Failure to keep up would lead to death.
God is very patient, he gives you time to think and make up your mind...the gods mentioned above torment you and force you to serve them.
So my dear there's no need to long for the worship of evil spirits cos believe me, they would do you more harm than good.

3.Haven't you heard of traditional deities whom their worshipers offer the blood of young innocent virgins constantly...for reasons best know to them.
If I may ask which evil would you tolerate of the two...a preacher violating an underage child or some traditional uneducated men using the blood of your daughters to serve their deity?

4. Note that evil has its way of catching up with those that perpetrate it...if you kill someone, someone else would kill you.
If dupe someone, someone else would dupe you.
A typical example was paul in the bible...he killed so many christians...and even though God forgave him, check how he died...he was beheaded. I believe that's the price he had to pay for all the evil he committed.
So in conclusion, all evil doers would be punished...it doesn't matter if you repent or not...the point to note is that you're definately going to be punished for your evil deeds.

5. If you're advocating for traditional worship, state your reason and why you feel it should preferred to christian and islamic worship.

With your permission:
1. When you talk about sacrifices, I guess you do not refer to slavery, European Arab wing subjected to millions of Africans nor you are referring to the murders committed in the name of Christ the King and Muhammad ...
When you refer to women while, surely you do not refer to the location of women in the synagogues, the maneraen that Islamic women should vesirse, n wing Islam accepts polygamy or the stoning and castación of women. Or yes?

2. When you say that "God is merciful", you mean the god bile, commanding destroy entire peoples? (Incluendo women, elderly and children), you are talking about spreading pests god? or you mean the prophet who orders suicidal fanatics murder innocents, and rewarded the murderers with 20 virgins in paradise?

3 If you read the Bible, you will see that Yahweh demanded sacrifices of virgins in their honor ... sacrifices that you speak? you speak of Jews slaughtered lamb to cleanse the sins? O God as "gracious" who sacrifices his own son, humiliated on the cross?.
Yes, I agree with you, that is something disgusting that Christian priests violating children permanently ... I do not agree that profit from the shepherds tithing abusing the faithful.

4. You say that Paul was wrong, and God forgave him ... But you contradict (or contradicts this god?) It was later beheaded by the sins ... Terrible!
Excuse me, but not all criminals are punished by God.
Adulterers: Abraham, David, Solomon, Noah (etc.) were punished?
The slave, who had been chained to black America in the name of God, were punished?
Who said that blacks and Indians deserved to be slaves because they were animals that had no soul, were punished by God?
Members of the "Holy Inquisition" were punished?


5. My answer to this point is based on the following.
The result of centuries of domination cultural and religious of Arabs and European, in Afica is following:
a) Africa is the poorest continent in the world.
b) The highest rate of child deaths in the world is in Africa
c) Africa is the continent with the largest number of people infected with AIDS per capita.
d) Africa is the continent worst in terms of health and hygiene levels ...
may continue .. the list is endless, but you know.
Europeans and Arabs have been commissioned to erase culture of Africa, to impose their moral value propis (moral?), And lose their identity and pride to Africans
That the legacy that slavery, and their foreign gods left in Africa.
Finally, Sir, then I present to you some pictures of that "legacy".
The images are worth a thousand words.
Enjoy it!
This is the culture, progress, civilzacion, love, and the improvements that these false gods
outsiders brought to Africa:
my respects

As this occurs, the fanatical idiots burned churches and synagogues ... and encourage religious hatred in the name of Allah and Christ ...

Now, you sleep in peace (if you can), and worshiping the gods follow slavers ...

But remember you the eyes of these children ...

Ptolomeus: As this occurs, the fanatical idiots burned churches and synagogues ... and encourage religious hatred in the name of Allah and Christ ...

Now, you sleep in peace (if you can), and worshiping the gods follow slavers ...

But remember you the eyes of these children ...

eyaa... Thats terrible

Ptolomeus: With your permission:
1. When you talk about sacrifices, I guess you do not refer to slavery, European Arab wing subjected to millions of Africans nor you are referring to the murders committed in the name of Christ the King and Muhammad ...

I must commend your observations...

But on the area of slavery...slavery was highly political therefore it had nothing to do with religion.

I'm sure that in your research, you didn't omit the area where thousands of missionaries died while spreading the gospel of christ in Africa.

On the area of murders committed in the name of christ, could you please enlighten me more on that area, cos I don't seem to comprehend that statement.

Ptolomeus: When you refer to women while, surely you do not refer to the location of women in the synagogues, the maneraen that Islamic women should vesirse, n wing Islam accepts polygamy or the stoning and castación of women. Or yes?

The synagogue's castigation of women was the old law...the law of moses.

Take a look at the passage below...

 Galatians 3:28-29. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The death and resurrection of christ made everyone equal in the sight of God...therefore sigmatization of women in the house of God is not a christian practice.

Ptolomeus: When you say that "God is merciful", you mean the god bile, commanding destroy entire peoples? (Incluendo women, elderly and children), you are talking about spreading pests god? or you mean the prophet who orders suicidal fanatics murder innocents, and rewarded the murderers with 20 virgins in paradise?

You must understand that in the old testament, God had rules, he gave laid down laws to moses...if you take your time to research properly, you would understand that every action God took had a reason.

He punished Israel because they sinned against him...

He slew the Egyptians because they refused to acknowledge him as the one true God...

He destroyed Sodom and gomorrah because their sins were a mockery to earth he created...

His unfathomable love, concern and victory over their (Israel) enemies was part of the fulfillment of the covenant he made to Abraham (Psalm 105:8-9)

Now tell me does a deity need a reason to kill you or drive you mad...I've seen hundreds of insane individuals who patrol the streets...upon inquiry, their insanity with I was made to understand was as a result of their inability to meet up to a covenant or oath which they swore with the diety.

God doesn't punish people this way...the death of christ has even brought people closer to him.

  Colossians 1:21-22. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Ptolomeus: If you read the Bible, you will see that Yahweh demanded sacrifices of virgins in their honor ...

Could you please post the bible passage here...

Ptolomeus: You say that Paul was wrong, and God forgave him ... But you contradict (or contradicts this god?) It was later beheaded by the sins ... Terrible!

I do not contradict him...murder is a simple law of nature. If you kill, you would be killed.

All laws of the world accept this logic fact.

Ptolomeus: Excuse me, but not all criminals are punished by God.
Adulterers: Abraham, David, Solomon, Noah (etc.) were punished?

David repented of murder, but he still had to face the consequences of his sins...2 samuel 2:14-31.

Abraham...could you please state the evil he committed?

Solomon...his generation lost the kingdom because of his involvement with foreign women...1 kings 11:4-6.

Noah...could you please state the evil he committed?

Ptolomeus: The slave, who had been chained to black America in the name of God, were punished?
Who said that blacks and Indians deserved to be slaves because they were animals that had no soul, were punished by God?
Members of the "Holy Inquisition" were punished?

Don't bring up theories you aren't properly sure of...you have very little knowledge of those people so avoid making reference to them in this debate because you don't their history.

Ptolomeus: The result of centuries of domination cultural and religious of Arabs and European, in Africa is following:
a) Africa is the poorest continent in the world.

Define the term poor?

Cos from my research, Africa is blessed with the best natural resources in the world.

Ptolomeus: Africa is the continent with the largest number of people infected with AIDS per capita.

Have you researched the origin of hiv?

Hiv if you must no originated from the united states...now tell me...if a disease that started in us and has no cure can within a twinkle of an eye become very obvious in africa...making them the largest number of those infected with it?

Africa has hiv true? But americans and the western world try to make it very obvious for the whole world to see. Do you know that over 50% of americans with hiv don't even know their status?

Take your time and do your research properly. And you would see that the number in africa is equal to what we have abroad.

Ptolomeus: Europeans and Arabs have been commissioned to erase culture of Africa, to impose their moral value propis (moral?), And lose their identity and pride to Africans

So are you telling me that you would prefer your traditional deity than God?

Ptolomeus: Finally, Sir, then I present to you some pictures of that "legacy".
The images are worth a thousand words.

Those images are images of war started by we africans...therefore it has nothing to do with the topic at hand...if you ask me, I'd say its unacceptable.

Thanks.

To me there is notin lyk importd or local religon.religon is in our words thoughts and action which we wil gve acount for.

Thank u guys for ur matured contributions. I don't mind reading more views though. Remain blessed.

CrazyMan:
1. I'm sure that in your research, you didn't omit the area where thousands of missionaries died while spreading the gospel of christ in Africa.
On the area of murders committed in the name of christ, could you please enlighten me more on that area, cos I don't seem to comprehend that statement.

2. The synagogue's castigation of women was the old law...the law of moses.
Take a look at the passage below...
Galatians 3:28-29. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The death and resurrection of christ made everyone equal in the sight of God...therefore sigmatization of women in the house of God is not a christian practice

3. You must understand that in the old testament, God had rules, he gave laid down laws to moses...if you take your time to research properly, you would understand that every action God took had a reason.
He punished Israel because they sinned against him...
He slew the Egyptians because they refused to acknowledge him as the one true God...
He destroyed Sodom and gomorrah because their sins were a mockery to earth he created...
His unfathomable love, concern and victory over their (Israel) enemies was part of the fulfillment of the covenant he made to Abraham (Psalm 105:8-9)
Now tell me does a deity need a reason to kill you or drive you mad...I've seen hundreds of insane individuals who patrol the streets...upon inquiry, their insanity with I was made to understand was as a result of their inability to meet up to a covenant or oath which they swore with the diety.
God doesn't punish people this way...the death of christ has even brought people closer to him.

4. Could you please post the bible passage here...

5. I do not contradict him...murder is a simple law of nature. If you kill, you would be killed.
All laws of the world accept this logic fact.

6. David repented of murder, but he still had to face the consequences of his sins...2 samuel 2:14-31.
Abraham...could you please state the evil he committed?
Solomon...his generation lost the kingdom because of his involvement with foreign women...1 kings 11:4-6.
Noah...could you please state the evil he committed?

7. Don't bring up theories you aren't properly sure of...you have very little knowledge of those people so avoid making reference to them in this debate because you don't their history.

8. Define the term poor?
Cos from my research, Africa is blessed with the best natural resources in the world.

9.Have you researched the origin of hiv?
Hiv if you must no originated from the united states...now tell me...if a disease that started in us and has no cure can within a twinkle of an eye become very obvious in africa...making them the largest number of those infected with it?

Africa has hiv true? But americans and the western world try to make it very obvious for the whole world to see. Do you know that over 50% of americans with hiv don't even know their status?
Take your time and do your research properly. And you would see that the number in africa is equal to what we have abroad.

10. So are you telling me that you would prefer your traditional deity than God?

11. Those images are images of war started by we africans...therefore it has nothing to do with the topic at hand...if you ask me, I'd say its unacceptable.

I'm glad the paths tansite discusón education and rationalism, and not for the disqualification and the injury of his first intervention.
I respond to you

1. In the colonization of Africa, missionaries surely died. Excuse me, but I do not think life is worth more missionaries than Africans. Or yea?. were also killed, soldiers French, British, Arabs, etc.. You weep for them? Ilament for the Africans, who asked not to be invaded.

You do not realize that they killed in the name of Christ? Surely you're joking.
You are not informed about what was the Inquisition? You do not know that the African slave trade was encouraged, supported and encouraged by the Christians? You know that the Catholic Church promoted slavery on the grounds that blacks were animals, and had no soul?
Well ... then dear friend ... you are very misinformed.

2.Great error .. disinformation.
In a synagogue, a woman can sit in the same place as men?
A woman can learn or read the Torah?
Why do you judge traditional religion, with facts that foreign religions practiced much worse?. It is better to look inside your own home?
You have defended Islam, why do not you respond, what you think of the costumes used for Islamic women?

3.I agree with you!
In the Old Testament, God punished all (or almost all). You said it yourself ...
But you traicionalismo accused of being cruel ... Contradictory!
If, God of Israel is irritable, vindictive and sadistic .. Who does not believe he will suffer the worst casigos (this is a loving God?). Following that, and can you tell traditionalism? Please think about you a little, before you post!
The God of the Old Testament, is one of the most sadistic and murderers ever invented.
I insist that your popio catigó people, sent plagues .. No normal human being would worship a god so evil.

4.I will be brief. I could cite dozens of passages.
Consider:
a) Judges (cap.10, 11 and 12), (Sacrifice of Jephthah virgin) Yahweh wanted her virgin .. perverse truth?
b) (Hebrews .10:12) ... You read it? God sacrificed, or God did not sacrifice his son?.
Well ... I think it's enough ... who sacrifices his own son, obviously human aceptasacrifcios. Sango did something?. Excuse me, but your analysis is very petty, biased, and your analysis suffers from amnesia

5.Pathetic!
That is the Christian doctrine of love and peace?
You are the judges the traditional religion?
You are justifying murder and revenge ...
Excuse me: I am a human being. I respect life ... I do not accept that veligeancia and hatred.

6.David repented of murder? With that achieved? Well then sin! Assassinate! that the Christian God forgives! Irony. This says a Christian! estimated
Abraham was a murderer and an adulterer ... the Bible says ... that seems to be, then, cristina behavior as you say ..
Abraham raped his home and impregnated her!
You are very confused, but I thank you say those things

7. You ignore fundaentales issues. It's not my fault.

8.Natural resources?
You are joking with something sacred. You make fun of African children's hunger!
You speak of natural resources ... is ironic! I speak of the pain of Africa, hunger, of disease, of whatever cultures exanjeras (that you defend) imposed on Africa. Do you have heart? Do you have feelings?.
Re-watch the children's eyes!

9. Africa is the continent with the highest number of people infected with AIDS per capita.
Not me, says the WHO.
You do not divert scusión to USA. We talked about Africa and the legacy they have left you defend foreigners.

10. Very respectfully.
In an ironic question, I answer any theological position, is better than what you propose. Their god is cruel, unjust, irritable .. How can you judge other deities?
Please! Have some respect!

11.There are internal wars imágees! But if they were, it is also the result of foreign domination. So Africa left his friends and his god.
Hunger, poverty, disease, hatred ... and you criticize African culture?
Excuse me, but I beg to raise the level of discussion ... You do not do anything but show that its creed incites violence, to mediocrity, and underestimation of Africans.
Please be sensible ... you leave their hatred and bigotry.
Again used to look in the eyes of these children ...
In're eyes are all the "blessing" of Jesus and Mohammed ... What an irony!

my respects

adelss4u: Thank u guys for ur matured contributions. I don't mind reading more views though. Remain blessed.

Yes, of course .. View and analyze some things causes pain ..
But not to close his eyes, those things disappear ..
On the contrary ... Take consciousness.
My respects

During the time of slave trade,religion was ruling the pple,it was a form of politics.

About Paul killing of the xtians,that was the biggest lie,during that period there wasn't Christianity,we'll live that to another day discussion.

Ptolomeus: I'm glad the paths tansite discusón education and rationalism, and not for the disqualification and the injury of his first intervention.
I respond to you

1. In the colonization of Africa, missionaries surely died. Excuse me, but I do not think life is worth more missionaries than Africans. Or yea?. were also killed, soldiers French, British, Arabs, etc.. You weep for them? Ilament for the Africans, who asked not to be invaded.

I never argued that the number of missionaries who lost their lives during and after the slave trade were more than the deaths recorded in Africa...I only made refrence to the whites who died because I was trying to make a point...a point that if you take your time to look at my post you tagged number 1 you'll understand much better.

So I would agree with you here...more Africans were massacred...

Ptolomeus:
You do not realize that they killed in the name of Christ? Surely you're joking.

Now this is where I'll object...the white slave owners never and I repeat never killed any black slave in the name of christ.

The method they the white men attempted to convert slaves was to preach a message that all slaves wanted to hear. This message was that all Christians were equal in the eyes of God.

Another tactic they used to convert slaves was to hold services similar to those the slaves held themselves. These services often times involved enthusiastic singing, clapping, dancing, Not having to change their style of worship made the African-Americans more comfortable attending Christian services.

Now read here carefully...many white slave owners forced (not killed) their slaves to attend white controlled churches because they were afraid that if the slaves worshiped on their own they would be more likely to rebel.

With time, the slaves were eventually freed. With this freedom, the slaves had an opportunity to freely choose a religion.

Many of them continued on with the Christianity they had learned while enslaved. Today more than 90% of African-Americans who attend church attend one of seven black dominated Christian denominations.

Take your time and make proper research and stop arguing blindly.

Ptolomeus: You are not informed about what was the Inquisition? You do not know that the African slave trade was encouraged, supported and encouraged by the Christians? You know that the Catholic Church promoted slavery on the grounds that blacks were animals, and had no soul?
Well ... then dear friend ... you are very misinformed.

True the roman catholic church supported slave trade...but does it make the church evil?

If your judgment on christianity is based on some decisions taken hundreds of years ago by a group of selfish and misguided individuals, parading themselves as roman catholics, then I'd suggest that you awake from your slumber...because myself and the christian body as well can never accept such people as christians....

I'm sure you're aware that they (the roman catholic) are being criticized heavily by fellow christian denominations for their involvement in the slave trade.

Ptolomeus: Great error .. disinformation.
In a synagogue, a woman can sit in the same place as men?
A woman can learn or read the Torah?
Why do you judge traditional religion, with facts that foreign religions practiced much worse?. It is better to look inside your own home?
You have defended Islam, why do not you respond, what you think of the costumes used for Islamic women?

Re-phrase please...didn't quite get you here...I didn't defend islam...please take your time to read and understand my posts before commenting.

And for the records, I'm a christian, so please avoid asking me questions pertaining to islam because I would have no answer to render.

Thanks.

Ptolomeus:
3.I agree with you!
In the Old Testament, God punished all (or almost all). You said it yourself ...
But you traicionalismo accused of being cruel ... Contradictory!
If, God of Israel is irritable, vindictive and sadistic .. Who does not believe he will suffer the worst casigos (this is a loving God?). Following that, and can you tell traditionalism? Please think about you a little, before you post!
The God of the Old Testament, is one of the most sadistic and murderers ever invented.
I insist that your popio catigó people, sent plagues .. No normal human being would worship a god so evil.

That's why I posted that passage there...and if you took your time to read it, you would know that the death and resurrection of christ has made us united with him...so please do me a favour and avoid dwelling on the past.

Christ death has broken the barrier that stood between we and God...look at this other passage.

[b]  But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. [/b]

Ptolomeus: Judges (cap.10, 11 and 12), (Sacrifice of Jephthah virgin) Yahweh wanted her virgin .. perverse truth?

Point of correction God didn't ask Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter...

Judges 11:30-31.  And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Jephthah made the vow out of his free will...God never requested him for it. He took it upon himself to make and fulfill his vow.

When next you make any reference to the scriptures, ensure that it has obvious similarities to the question at hand or else I would ignore it.

Ptolomeus: (Hebrews .10:12) ... You read it? God sacrificed, or God did not sacrifice his son?.

Did you read that passage before posting it or did you just post it because the verse contained the word sacrifice?

I see no similarities in the passage to what we have here, therefore I'll remain mute.

Ptolomeus: Well ... I think it's enough ... who sacrifices his own son, obviously human aceptasacrifcios. Sango did something?. Excuse me, but your analysis is very petty, biased, and your analysis suffers from amnesia

Really?

If you dislike christianity I won't criticize you...but you can't expect my views and opinions to the same as yours since we have different understand of the whole issue.

So the best we can do if you ask me, is to refrain from foul languages and keep educating ourselves.

Ptolomeus: .Pathetic!
That is the Christian doctrine of love and peace?
You are the judges the traditional religion?
You are justifying murder and revenge ...
Excuse me: I am a human being. I respect life ... I do not accept that veligeancia and hatred.

Stop misinterpreting me...I never said christianity doesn't respect life.

Take your time and read my post where you marked number 5 you would understand my statement much better.

Ptolomeus: David repented of murder? With that achieved? Well then sin! Assassinate! that the Christian God forgives! Irony. This says a Christian! estimated

David's son died...check my post you marked number 6. I provided the bible passage where he was punished for the crime he committed...read my comment before you make your post...I hate repeating myself.

Ptolomeus: Abraham was a murderer and an adulterer ... the Bible says ... that seems to be, then, cristina behavior as you say ..
Abraham Molested his home and impregnated her!
You are very confused, but I thank you say those things

Ok I get now...its quite obvious that you hate christianity...but if you want me to keep responding you, you must learn to act maturely, and not emotionally...this is a debate which I believe would be of benefit to us both...so ranting out like this doesn't make any sense.

Back to your question...go back to my post you tagged number 6. If you don't have any biblical verse to back up your claims, then remain mute.

Cos I would only provide answers when I see valid biblical evidence.

Ptolomeus: You ignore fundaentales issues. It's not my fault.

And you refused to give me an answer as well...

Ptolomeus: Natural resources?
You are joking with something sacred. You make fun of African children's hunger!
You speak of natural resources ... is ironic! I speak of the pain of Africa, hunger, of disease, of whatever cultures exanjeras (that you defend) imposed on Africa. Do you have heart? Do you have feelings?.
Re-watch the children's eyes!

What is wrong with this guy for heavens sake...oh so you're now of the opinion that the average African child's condition, can be likened to those pictures you posted?

Those pictures are pictures of wars we Africans started as a result of our hatred, greed and selfishness...those children there, are victims of circumstances...get realistic and stop derailing this discussion.

Ptolomeus: Africa is the continent with the highest number of people infected with AIDS per capita.
Not me, says the WHO.
You do not divert scusión to USA. We talked about Africa and the legacy they have left you defend foreigners.

No comment!

Ptolomeus: Very respectfully.
In an ironic question, I answer any theological position, is better than what you propose. Their god is cruel, unjust, irritable .. How can you judge other deities?
Please! Have some respect!

You're entitled to your own views and opinions...therefore, I won't challenge yours.

Ptolomeus: There are internal wars imágees! But if they were, it is also the result of foreign domination. So Africa left his friends and his god.
Hunger, poverty, disease, hatred ... and you criticize African culture?
Excuse me, but I beg to raise the level of discussion ... You do not do anything but show that its creed incites violence, to mediocrity, and underestimation of Africans.
Please be sensible ... you leave their hatred and bigotry.
Again used to look in the eyes of these children ...
In're eyes are all the "blessing" of Jesus and Mohammed ... What an irony!

The world we live can be likened to a magic mirror. When people look into a mirror...they see what they expect to see...but the truth still stands.

You can believe whatever your heart tells you to believe, but because yours differs from mine, doesn't make either of us more superior or more learnered.

But I believe that if you cast away your hatred towards christianity and take it upon yourself to make further research, you'll come to a conclusion that christianity is indeed a religion of peace.

Thanks.

After seeing Crazyman's argument, I am saddened at the mental slavery of some Nigerians.


1) Crazyman mentions that no christian slave owner killed his slave in the name of Jesus? How would Crazyman know that? What was the punbishment for trying to read? Trying to read a bible? Any death from christian slavery, whether it was being flogged to death or death in transportation of slaves is a death in the name of Jesus because the bible was used to enforce that slavery.


2) Christianity has killed far more than any pagan religion. Crazyman will counter that those killing in the name of christianity are not christians, just as he denies that catholic slave traders are not christians. Then, Crazyman is arguing illogically because a pagan can claim that the pagans who do bad things like sacrifices are not pagans.


3) Crazyman acts like it was only the catholics that engaged in slavery. Unfortunately for you, the major denominations supported slave trade! Anglican, Baptist, Mormons etc.

4) Crazyman ignores the support of slavery in the bible. Paul in the new testament clearly tells slaves to obey their masters. The old testament says that slaves can be taken from the nations around isreal.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)



Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

MacDaddy01: 1) Crazyman mentions that no christian slave owner killed his slave in the name of Jesus? How would Crazyman know that? What was the punbishment for trying to read? Trying to read a bible? Any death from christian slavery, whether it was being flogged to death or death in transportation of slaves is a death in the name of Jesus because the bible was used to enforce that slavery.

If you must know, the slave trade was carried out by political reasons not religious reasons...I'm sure you're aware of that.

So stop acting as if the main reason for the slave trade was to enforce christianity into africa.

MacDaddy01: Christianity has killed far more than any pagan religion. Crazyman will counter that those killing in the name of christianity are not christians, just as he denies that catholic slave traders are not christians. Then, Crazyman is arguing illogically because a pagan can claim that the pagans who do bad things like sacrifices are not pagans.

This is not a christian pagan battle...so don't go there...the poster made a reference to roman catholic's involvement in the slave trade, so I replied him by clarifying the whole issue properly.

MacDaddy01: Crazyman acts like it was only the catholics that engaged in slavery. Unfortunately for you, the major denominations supported slave trade! Anglican, Baptist, Mormons etc.

The issue of Aglicians, Baptist and co didn't come up...so I preferred to remain mute on the whole issue...so what's all this fuss about?

Slave trade was started by the whites...true

98% of them were christians...true

As christians, they decided to enforce their religion on their slaves...true

With time, they came back to their senses and abolished the slave trade...true

The gave their freed slaves freedom of choice to choose their religion...true

Never again was there any report about christians forcing or killing people whatsoever again...true.

What point are you trying to prove?

MacDaddy01: Crazyman ignores the support of slavery in the bible. Paul in the new testament clearly tells slaves to obey their masters. The old testament says that slaves can be taken from the nations around isreal.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)



Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

You just contradicted yourself by this last post you made.

You claimed that christians were wrong to have gone into slavery...unfortunately you proved your statement to be false by supporting it with a bible verse.

Pathetic!

CrazyMan:
If you must know, the slave trade was carried out by political reasons not religious reasons...I'm sure you're aware of that.

So stop acting as if the main reason for the slave trade was to enforce christianity into africa.

Slave trade was mainly an economic issue for labour. The economic issue was supported by religion both christianity and islam.

The African slave trade was justified with the bible when it came to the West. Christianity is a slave religion

CrazyMan:
This is not a christian pagan battle...so don't go there...the poster made a reference to roman catholic's involvement in the slave trade, so I replied him by clarifying the whole issue properly.


The issue of Aglicians, Baptist and co didn't come up...so I preferred to remain mute on the whole issue...so what's all this fuss about?

A half truth is a lie. Your religion was mostly in support of slavery by the fact that the most powerful denominations were in support of slavery at the time.

CrazyMan:
Slave trade was started by the whites...true

98% of them were christians...true

As christians, they decided to enforce their religion on their slaves...true

With time, they came back to their senses and abolished the slave trade...true

The gave their freed slaves freedom of choice to choose their religion...true

Never again was there any report about christians forcing or killing people whatsoever again...true.

What point are you trying to prove?

False!!!!

1) The African slave trade was started by muslims.

2) Christians still kill witches in Africa. Europe (Britian) dumped their toxic religion on us and forgot about the religion. Do British people burn witches anymore? Ae British people religious? No, but We Africans carry their foriegn religion and do all kinds of atrocities like tithe-fraud, battering children accused of witchcraft, improsining homosexuals etc

3) We destroy our own cultures. Our great granfathers were wed in their traditional cultures and they hardly divorced but now we do church weddings. We are now saying that weddings are not holy or proper until done in a church. Shameful.


4) There were secular movements in the call for abolition of slave trade

5) From the changing behaviour of christians on slavery, their truth is not eternal and neither is their bible's or god's

CrazyMan:
You just contradicted yourself by this last post you made.

You claimed that christians were wrong to have gone into slavery...unfortunately you proved your statement to be false by supporting it with a bible verse.

Pathetic!

How did I contradict myself?

a) Slavery is wrong. Christians engaged in slavery

b) The bible supports slavery.


Are you just complaining of contradiction from thin air?

CrazyMan:
No I won't agree with you...cos traditional gods are far worse than christianity and islam put together.

Could you expatiate?

CrazyMan:
Maybe on good day, sit your folks down, and ask them to give you a flash back of how they worshiped their traditional gods...I'm sure that by the time they finish explaining to you the killings, the human and animal sacrifices, the unnecessary restrictions to certain places, the embargo placed on women restricting them from gaining access into certain shrines..etc. You'll have a change of heart.

Like really, there are no such restrictions in Christianity and Islam?

CrazyMan:
And what makes you think that sango, amadioha, ogun etc worship is preferable to worshiping.
You fail to realise that God is forgiving...all others you mentioned aren't you get instant punishment for your trespasses.
God isn't bothered about your sacrifice...he wants your heart, the gods mentioned above all require human sacrifices from their subjects. Failure to keep up would lead to death.

God also required human sacrifice, didn't he?

CrazyMan:
God is very patient, he gives you time to think and make up your mind...the gods mentioned above torment you and force you to serve them.
So my dear there's no need to long for the worship of evil spirits cos believe me, they would do you more harm than good.

What do you mean evil spirits? Would the Canaanites who lost their land to the emancipated slaves of Egypt, view Yahweh as a good spirit?

CrazyMan:
Haven't you heard of traditional deities whom their worshipers offer the blood of young innocent virgins constantly...for reasons best know to them.
If I may ask which evil would you tolerate of the two...a preacher violating an underage child or some traditional uneducated men using the blood of your daughters to serve their deity?

So it boils down to picking the better of two evils?

CrazyMan:
Note that evil has its way of catching up with those that perpetrate it...if you kill someone, someone else would kill you.

CrazyMan:
A typical example was paul in the bible...he killed so many christians...and even though God forgave him, check how he died...he was beheaded. I believe that's the price he had to pay for all the evil he committed.
So in conclusion, all evil doers would be punished...it doesn't matter if you repent or not...the point to note is that you're definately going to be punished for your evil deeds.

Ezekiel 33
8 When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for[a] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
9 But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.
10 “Son of man, say to the Israelites, ‘This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of[b] them. How then can we live?”’
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—
15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just.
18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it.
19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.
20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

MacDaddy01:

Slave trade was mainly an economic issue for labour. The economic issue was supported by religion both christianity and islam.

The African slave trade was justified with the bible when it came to the West. Christianity is a slave religion

You just confirmed my post which was quoted by you. Therefore, the bolded section is irrelevant...I've already gotten my answer from you.

MacDaddy01: A half truth is a lie. Your religion was mostly in support of slavery by the fact that the most powerful denominations were in support of slavery at the time.

Stop repeating yourself...I never denied this fact.

MacDaddy01: [size=15pt] 1) The African slave trade was started by muslims. [/size]

2) Christians still kill witches in Africa. Europe (Britian) dumped their toxic religion on us and forgot about the religion. Do British people burn witches anymore? Ae British people religious? No, but We Africans carry their foriegn religion and do all kinds of atrocities like tithe-fraud, battering children accused of witchcraft, improsining homosexuals etc

3) We destroy our own cultures. Our great granfathers were wed in their traditional cultures and they hardly divorced but now we do church weddings. We are now saying that weddings are not holy or proper until done in a church. Shameful.


4) There were secular movements in the call for abolition of slave trade

5) From the changing behaviour of christians on slavery, their truth is not eternal and neither is their bible's or god's

You just exonerated the christians with your post...the one I bolded. Therefore every other post you made is irrelevant, cos I've already gotten my answer.

MacDaddy01: How did I contradict myself?

a) Slavery is wrong. Christians engaged in slavery

b) The bible supports slavery.


Are you just complaining of contradiction from thin air?

How many recent cases of slavery have you hear that christians were involved in...why do you guys love clinging to the past.

The christianity we experience is totally different from the politically motivated Christianity that was being practiced then.

So cut the crap, and face reality...christianity is a religion of peace whether you choose to believe it or not.

musKeeto: Could you expatiate?

I've already done that...take your time to read my posts carefully, and you'll find your answers.

musKeeto: Like really, there are no such restrictions in Christianity and Islam?

There aren't any in christianity...I don't know about islam.

musKeeto: God also required human sacrifice, didn't he?

No he didn't...read my posts and you'll find my reasons.

musKeeto: What do you mean evil spirits? Would the Canaanites who lost their land to the emancipated slaves of Egypt, view Yahweh as a good spirit?

No I meant unclean spirit...

musKeeto: So it boils down to picking the better of two evils?

You can choose to misinterpret me in whatever way seems best to you...I've already given my opinion on the issue...you're entitled to yours.

musKeeto:

musKeeto: Ezekiel 33
8 When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for[a] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
9 But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.
10 “Son of man, say to the Israelites, ‘This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of[b] them. How then can we live?”’
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—
15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just.
18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it.
19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.
20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

So what has this passage got to do with the discussion at hand...I had already explained earlier that christ's death made us one with God...go through my previous posts for further explanation.

CrazyMan:
You just confirmed my post which was quoted by you. Therefore, the bolded section is irrelevant...I've already gotten my answer from you.


Stop repeating yourself...I never denied this fact.


You just exonerated the christians with your post...the one I bolded. Therefore every other post you made is irrelevant, cos I've already gotten my answer.


How many recent cases of slavery have you hear that christians were involved in...why do you guys love clinging to the past.

The christianity we experience is totally different from the politically motivated Christianity that was being practiced then.

So cut the crap, and face reality...christianity is a religion of peace whether you choose to believe it or not.

So because muslims started slavery in Africa and christians only did slavery in the past, christianity is now exonerated from the crimes of slavery?

CrazyMan:
You just confirmed my post which was quoted by you. Therefore, the bolded section is irrelevant...I've already gotten my answer from you.


Stop repeating yourself...I never denied this fact.


You just exonerated the christians with your post...the one I bolded. Therefore every other post you made is irrelevant, cos I've already gotten my answer.


How many recent cases of slavery have you hear that christians were involved in...why do you guys love clinging to the past.

The christianity we experience is totally different from the politically motivated Christianity that was being practiced then.

So cut the crap, and face reality...christianity is a religion of peace whether you choose to believe it or not.

Yes, but born out of it. So if your foundation is bad, do you ignore it and keep building nonetheless?
hmmmmm

Area_boy: Yes, but born out of it. So if your foundation is bad, do you ignore it and keep building nonetheless?
hmmmmm

What foundation...if you think that christianity started with slave masters, then you must be a real joker.

Cos I don't need to quote the bible here for you to know that christianity was in existence thousands of years before the slave trade.

MacDaddy01: So because muslims started slavery in Africa and christians only did slavery in the past, christianity is now exonerated from the crimes of slavery?

Mac I don't have the strength for unnecessary arguments...if you feel comfortable with that answer, you posted, then fine...cos even if I type here all day, it won't change your beliefs...you won't be convinced. So what's the point?

CrazyMan:
What foundation...if you think that christianity started with slave masters, then you must be a real joker.

Cos I don't need to quote the bible here for you to know that christianity was in existence thousands of years before the slave trade.

The slavery in the old testament was what? Surprise labour?


Why was Paul telling slaves to obey their masters?

CrazyMan:
Mac I don't have the strength for unnecessary arguments...if you feel comfortable with that answer, you posted, then fine...cos even if I type here all day, it won't change your beliefs...you won't be convinced. So what's the point?

The words of a debunked man.....

CrazyMan:
What foundation...if you think that christianity started with slave masters, then you must be a real joker.

Cos I don't need to quote the bible here for you to know that christianity was in existence thousands of years before the slave trade.

You are a joker! big time!

We all know the bible supports slavery and if you doubt it, then read your bible. Them colonials used that as a foundation for their acts. If you can come here and ask me what foundation, then clearly you have refused to think clearly.

I rest my case

Area_boy: You are a joker! big time!

We all know the bible supports slavery and if you doubt it, then read your bible. Them colonials used that as a foundation for their acts. If you can come here and ask me what foundation, then clearly you have refused to think clearly.

I rest my case

Sheer ignorance...the slave trade wasn't based on christianity, it was highly political...your fellow atheist brethren (logic boy) even accepted this fact.

So don't make look as if slaver was a means the whites used to force christianity on us.

MacDaddy01: The words of a debunked man.....

Words of and abrasive man.

MacDaddy01: The words of a debunked man.....

Words of an abrasive man.

@Crazyman, when did you escape from the asylum?

CrazyMan:
Haven't you heard of traditional deities whom their worshipers offer the blood of young innocent virgins constantly...for reasons best know to them.

If I may ask which evil would you tolerate of the two...a preacher violating an underage child or some traditional uneducated men using the blood of your daughters to serve their deity?

musKeeto:
So it boils down to picking the better of two evils?

CrazyMan:
You can choose to misinterpret me in whatever way seems best to you...I've already given my opinion on the issue...you're entitled to yours.

..............He didn't misinterpret you at all!!! You people will say anything to defend your fairy tales. Everything you wrote is absurd but this particular lesser of two evils example takes the cake.

[size=32pt]OUR ANCESTRAL "PAGAN" RELIGIONS WILL RETURN, BY THE GODS!!!!!!!!!! PAGAN 9JA IS WORKING ON IT EVEN WHERE NONE SHALL SUPPORT HIM!!!!!!!


CHRISTIANITY/ISLAM, I GIVE YOU 2 DECADES AND WITHIN/BEFORE THAT PERIOD YOU SHALL BE SENT PACKING AWAY!

THOU SHALT NOT HINDER THE PROGRESS & DEVELOPMENT OF MY NATION, ANY LONGER! [/size]

Martian: ..............He didn't misinterpret you at all!!! You people will say anything to defend our fairy tales. Everything you wrote is absurd but this particular lesser of two evils example takes the cake.

I was just being realistic...there's evil everywhere (even in the church, the mosque, the traditional deity and in the world at large) and you and I are aware of that.

I was only being real...

CrazyMan:
I was just being realistic...there's evil everywhere (even in the church, the mosque, the traditional deity and in the world at large) and you and I are aware of that.
I was only being real...

If you want to be a realistic, you will admit that both the preacher and the traditional man are snake oil salesmen using their position and their victims' ignorance and gullibily to carry out their atrocities. Your argument boils down to, "at least the christian preacher only rapes and doesn't kill".

The fact is there is no difference between the ancestral religions and the pathetic ones you people follow now. People like you are always quick to bring up the ignorant acts of the old beliefs, while ignoring the ridiculous antics of your cherished jews and their god in your bible; and the actions of christians in recorded history.
Christianity used to be more barbaric than it is today, just like the ancestral religions of different cultures, so pointing out human sacrificies and the likes as arguments against the old religions is asinine. Just like christianity evolved, the ancestral religions can also evolve. At the end of the day, christianity is bullsh#t, just like the ancestral beliefs are bullsh#t. So get off your high horse, and realise that yahweh is as "unique" as zeus and Amadioha.