ChinenyeN: Anyway, getting back on track, Odumchi, now, that we have settled on our definition, let us tie it back into our discussion, so as to not derail too much. How would you connect this "building block" understanding back into our determination of Igbo as either a tribe, ethnic group or nation? In my understanding, these "building block" qualities are only further indicating Igbo to be some kind of an ethnic group, as opposed to a tribe or nation.

These "building blocks" are common in all groups within the Igbo nation and are the basic characteristics of what it means "to be Igbo". The Igbo are not a tribe because we do not all share the same exact practices nor do we all share common ancestry.

Think of these "building blocks" as base elements just as carbon is the base element of nearly everything. Our diversity both linguistically and culturally is founded upon these "building blocks" which give us something in common with each other, therefore making us related.

It is completely natural for an ethnic group to think of itself as a nation as it grows in size and development. To draw a comparison, think of the modern-day nation-states England and France. Over a thousand years ago, these nations were referred to as ethnic groups, Anglo-Saxons and Franks, respectively. Through self-awareness, we Igbo have also begun to make such changes by learning more about ourselves and realizing that, although we are diverse, there are many things that we hold in common.

odumchi:

These "building blocks" are common in all groups within the Igbo nation and are the basic characteristics of what it means "to be Igbo". The Igbo are not a tribe because we do not all share the same exact practices nor do we all share common ancestry.

Think of these "building blocks" as base elements just as carbon is the base element of nearly everything. Our diversity both linguistically and culturally is founded upon these "building blocks" which give us something in common with each other, therefore making us related.

It is completely natural for an ethnic group to think of itself as a nation as it grows in size and development. To draw a comparison, think of the modern-day nation-states England and France. Over a thousand years ago, these nations were referred to as ethnic groups, Anglo-Saxons and Franks, respectively. Through self-awareness, we Igbo have also begun to make such changes by learning more about ourselves and realizing that, although we are diverse, there are many things that we hold in common.

COMPLETELY RUBBISH AND OUT OF POINT!

Antivirus92: COMPLETELY RUBBISH AND OUT OF POINT!

Don't always denigrate other people's opinions just because it doesn't agree with your line of thought. We're all here to learn.

i will always insist that Igbo is an ethnic group rather than a nation because there's no concrete proof that the Igbo emigrated from one particular place. Ndi Igbo are a people with different tribal idiosyncrasies who have come together to form one nation as a result of their similarities especially as it relates to culture, language etc. The closeness even became more pronounced after the British colonization of Igboland.

This is thread is educative and inquisitive. Baring all the formative progression, I think Igbo is an ethnic group. It does not seem right to talk about group of people in terms of nation when such group has not emancipated into geopolitical entity with delineated landmarks that are subjected to international protocol.

As Abagworo has rightfully pointed out in a previous post, there must exit an identifiable natural or biological trait among the people as to be regarded as ethnic group. Anybody who grew up from a group of Igbo community, without external influence, would readily recognize a stranger among unknown crowd who shouted Bia, Chi, Chineke, Ahia, Eke, Orie, Afo, Nkwo, Chukwu, Abali, Nwoke, Nwoko, Nwanyi, etc as one of his\her kind and feel settled. By the same token, he\she will feel indifferent to a person shouting Obong, Etim. Ekaite, Abbasi, Ukoro, etc.

ChinenyeN:

I believe we may be derailing, and I wouldn't like to entertain the derailment too much, but I do feel I need to comment on the bold. Ngwa did not acknowledge or identify with "Igbo" until the mid 20th century. Before that time, Ngwa had always maintained that they formed a single, distinct people. As recent as the 60's, there were Ngwa who did not identify as "Igbo", and though you may not want to believe it, some still don't. Although, the Ngwa body now generally acknowledges "Igboness", but a strong sense of distinction and distancing between Ngwa and Igbo identity still actively pervades.

The above post is an arrant nonsense and a conjecture devoid of any historical evidence. Most people tend to foolishly forget that social groups comprising families, clans and slaves organized largely based on kinship gave raise to tribe. Sudden dispersal or unforeseen circumstances may have played role to the formation of larger group of families or clans or communities hence ethnicity.

I was born and raised in a place recently called Ukwa. In due course of my growth, I had interaction with many people who knew the cradle and history of the so-called Ngwa. As a matter of fact, I have never focus on the nomenclature known as NGWA in my understudy from person\persons who belonged to the Clans of Mboasi\Ihie\Ndoki\Asa. Apart from the aforementioned but severely abbreviated names of clans, these families\clans have some hidden names or aliases.

Igbo is not a tribe neither is it an ethnic group nor a nation but a continent . Here is my explanation:

When groups like Ika, Ikwerre, Anioma etc claims to be a 'nation', then how will you then describe Igbo which has all these so called 'nations' inside it.

My own thought o. Make una no crucify me o.

afam4eva:
Don't always denigrate other people's opinions just because it doesn't agree with your line of thought. We're all here to learn.

i will always insist that Igbo is an ethnic group rather than a nation because there's no concrete proof that the Igbo emigrated from one particular place. Ndi Igbo are a people with different tribal idiosyncrasies who have come together to form one nation as a result of their similarities especially as it relates to culture, language etc. The closeness even became more pronounced after the British colonization of Igboland.

it is very easy to say but difficult to prove. Do you guys think that anyone is begging or forcing you to be one with them? Nonsense! We're just trying to unvail something that really looks like a hidden truth. You say that igbos are different groups of people with similar idiosyncrasies,similar culture, similar language etc? Are you really insane? How the hell is it possible for a different groups of people(who probably have not come in contact with each other) have similar idiosyncrasies,culture,language etc. From all indications, one can simply discover that igbo is a related people who spread from one point to their various settlements, adopting,assimilating and receiving people of various tribes as they advance more and more. NOTE-i am not saying that everybody in igboland or that anybody who claims to be igbo is of the same descent. NO! WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE IGBO PEOPLE ARE OF THE SAME ORIGIN,WHEN I SAY IGBO PEOPLE,I MEAN THE INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE AND NOT THE ADOPTED,ASSIMILATED OR THE RECEIVED FOREIGNERS.

Antivirus, avutubee m agamu nmadi gi nza m pusara avo nne m!

odumchi:

Antivirus, avutubee m agamu nmadi gi nza m pusara avo nne m!

but you have seen me now or haven't you come out of ur mother's womb?

@antivirus. Can we know the Igbo clan you are from?

Abagworo:





There was no "Igboukwu". It is a recent change of name from Igbo Nkwo. However just like I stated earlier Igbo has always existed as a lingual group. If you have been able to read many past books on Aboh which was the 1st Igbo town to have contacts with the Europeans, they believed they were Igbos by extension but still did not believe in actually being connected to the interior Igbos. It is same with almost every Igbo group. The Ngwa for example have never denied being


Igbo but they are more ethnically conscious to their Ngwa agenda and treats the Igbo agenda as secondary.

I haven't read any book on Aboh's early contact with the whites but one thing I will advice you is to stop from doing is to keep away from trying to distort,bastardize nor revising the Nri history. You are a shameless man! You think you have got the guts to come and re-write the Nri history? Ever since I met you on this forum all you have been doing is trying so laboriously to revise the revered Nri culture and history and maybe find a way to elevate your Isu dreams. You have claimed "Onicha" spoke Isu language,Ogwashiukwu are Isu decendants,Isu is the oldest Igbo dialect,Igboukwu is Isu,Aboh are Isu and most recently, "Igboukwu" was a recent change of name from "Igbonkwo" ! Do you go to bed and wake up with these conjectures Why don't you create a thread and educate us on the Isu culture,like the slave selling! Nonsense!

Abagworo: @antivirus. Can we know the Igbo clan you are from?

i am an igbo. I don't have clan.my town is of nri settlement.

Antivirus92: i am an igbo. I don't have clan.my town is of nri settlement.

you're lost

Antivirus92: please can you sincerely explain how those different ethnicities later have similarities and please highlight more on the differences.

Let's compare Nri (northern) culture to Aro (eastern) culture.

Aro:
Ekpe/Okonko/Nyamkpe (Cross Riverine leopard societies)
Ekpo (an Ibibio masquerade genre)
Viewed Aro as the main religious center in the Igbo interland
Deities (Kamalu/Kamanu/Kalu/Kanu)
Traditional monarchy
Ikeji ceremony
Actively encouraged slavery
Unique village structure
Cross River attire
Sought the expansion of its economic influence
Dialect

Nri:
Nmanwu (an Igbo masquerade genre)
Title-taking institutions (Nze/Ozo/Ichie/Dim)
Alulugbada
Viewed Agukwu Nri as the main religious center in the Igbo hinterland
Deities (Amadiora)
Osu Caste
Priest kings
Ifejioku ceremony
Aside from Nri, and the other few exceptions, most groups in this culture zone were ruled by republican-style councils
Took little part in slavery
Sought the expansion of its religious influence
Dailect

Shared:
Market Days (Eke, Orie, Avo, Nkwo and Eke, Oye, Afo, Nkwo)
Belief in Chi/Chukwu/Obasi/Olisabuluwa
Belief in ancestrally mandated authority (Ovo/Ofo)
Belief in consultation of oracles/divining/communication with ancestors (Igba aja/Igba afa)
Belief in Ali/Ani

These are to name just a few. The list can stretch on...

Igbos are forest-dwellers and head-hunters.

odumchi:

Let's compare Nri (northern) culture to Aro (eastern) culture.

Aro:
Ekpe/Okonko/Nyamkpe (Cross Riverine leopard societies)
Ekpo (an Ibibio masquerade genre)
Viewed Aro as the main religious center in the Igbo interland
Deities (Kamalu/Kamanu/Kalu/Kanu)
Traditional monarchy
Ikeji ceremony
Actively encouraged slavery
Unique village structure
Cross River attire
Sought the expansion of its economic influence
Dialect

Nri:
Nmanwu (an Igbo masquerade genre)
Title-taking institutions (Nze/Ozo/Ichie/Dim)
Alulugbada
Viewed Agukwu Nri as the main religious center in the Igbo hinterland
Deities (Amadiora)
Osu Caste
Priest kings
Ifejioku ceremony
Aside from Nri, and the other few exceptions, most groups in this culture zone were ruled by republican-style councils
Took little part in slavery
Sought the expansion of its religious influence
Dailect

Shared:
Market Days (Eke, Orie, Avo, Nkwo and Eke, Oye, Afo, Nkwo)
Belief in Chi/Chukwu/Obasi/Olisabuluwa
Belief in ancestrally mandated authority (Ovo/Ofo)
Belief in consultation of oracles/divining/communication with ancestors (Igba aja/Igba afa)
Belief in Ali/Ani

These are to name just a few. The list can stretch on...

Talkative! I thought that you're intelligent. How did you just listed the culture you copied from your non igbo neighbours and post them here as igbo culture. Ibini ukpabi,ekpe,nyankpe,okonko,ekpa etc are all not igbo culture but borrowed culture. So don't list them,they don't really count. Even you yourself know that they are not indigeneous to igbo people. They are from ekpa people,ibom people and so on. Ikeji and ifejioku are the same just different names.

Eze Promoe:
you're lost

thank you very much.

Anti virus na you use your hand dey scatter your thread oh. You started it well but lost bearing along the way.

What makes ekpe and all those festivals Odumchi listed "non igbo and borrowed" ? I would want to know. "ofalla" is celebrated in a couple of towns in anambra, so I guess ndi Imo, abia etc can equally term ofalla as non igbo and borrowed?

@topic, Both! Igbo is first a nation then a tribe. A nation of tribes intertwined by geography, language, culture.

ifyalways: Anti virus na you use your hand dey scatter your thread oh. You started it well but lost bearing along the way.

What makes ekpe and all those festivals Odumchi listed "non igbo and borrowed" ? I would want to know. "ofalla" is celebrated in a couple of towns in anambra, so I guess ndi Imo, abia etc can equally term ofalla as non igbo and borrowed?

@topic, Both! Igbo is first a nation then a tribe. A nation of tribes intertwined by geography, language, culture.

no ify, you can't say that ofalla is a borrowed culture because it has it's root in igboland. Unlike ekpe and others which the ekpa and ibom people have been celebrating before the aro confederation. Those non igbos who later became arochukwu people introduced those ibini ukpabi of a thing. They are not indigeneous to igbos. Again, i am yet to see any igbo monarch who doesn't celebrate ofalla.

Antivirus92: i am an igbo. I don't have clan.my town is of nri settlement.

NRI PRIEST:


I haven't read any book on Aboh's early contact with the whites but one thing I will advice you is to stop from doing is to keep away from trying to distort,bastardize nor revising the Nri history. You are a shameless man! You think you have got the guts to come and re-write the Nri history? Ever since I met you on this forum all you have been doing is trying so laboriously to revise the revered Nri culture and history and maybe find a way to elevate your Isu dreams. You have claimed "Onicha" spoke Isu language,Ogwashiukwu are Isu decendants,Isu is the oldest Igbo dialect,Igboukwu is Isu,Aboh are Isu and most recently, "Igboukwu" was a recent change of name from "Igbonkwo" ! Do you go to bed and wake up with these conjectures Why don't you create a thread and educate us on the Isu culture,like the slave selling! Nonsense!

Antivirus92: i am an igbo. I don't have clan.my town is of nri settlement.

While I've never denied the place of Nri in the religious and spiritual aspect of Igbo culture, I must make some things clear. Onitsha speaks like Idemili and other people around her including Asaba. Isu speaks something completely different. Aboh is Aboh and not Isu as you are insinuating. I have nothing in common with Isu and Nri because I'm Oru and it has always been said "abum Oru ma abudikwam Igbo"( "I am Oru and never Igbo". So I'm more or less a neutral observer of the Igbos if we must go deep into our roots.

That said, most Southern Igbos have nothing in common with your Nri. Your not knowing that Igbo-Nkwo was re-christened Igboukwu shows your level of ignorance in the affairs of your immediate clan. Most religious pilgrimages were in Arochukwu, Umunoha and Ozuzu.

Abagworo:


While I've never denied the place of Nri in the religious and spiritual aspect of Igbo culture, I must make some things clear. Onitsha speaks like Idemili and other people around her including Asaba. Isu speaks something completely different. Aboh is Aboh and not Isu as you are insinuating. I have nothing in common with Isu and Nri because I'm Oru and it has always been said "abum Oru ma abudikwam Igbo"( "I am Oru and never Igbo". So I'm more or less a neutral observer of the Igbos if we must go deep into our roots.

That said, most Southern Igbos have nothing in common with your Nri. Your not knowing that Igbo-Nkwo was re-christened Igboukwu shows your level of ignorance in the affairs of your immediate clan. Most religious pilgrimages were in Arochukwu, Umunoha and Ozuzu.

you spoke well by understanding what igbo is and knowing where you fall into unlike odumchi that tried to include even ibom people and their culture into igbo. But from the inner most research that i have carried out. Isu,oru,igbo are brothers(may be from the same parents) and they unitedly founded the igbo language,custom and tradition. So abagworo don't go away, you're our brother. I am not trying to chase away people but to make them understand that there is a clear difference between igbo and igbo claimers.

Antivirus92: you spoke well by understanding what igbo is and knowing where you fall into unlike odumchi that tried to include even ibom people and their culture into igbo. But from the inner most research that i have carried out. Isu,oru,igbo are brothers(may be from the same parents) and they unitedly founded the igbo language,custom and tradition. So abagworo don't go away, you're our brother. I am not trying to chase away people but to make them understand that there is a clear difference between igbo and igbo claimers.

That is more or less the only way we can arrive at something tangible. Most Africans tell their oral tradition of origin from the angle of the stranger than the autochtonous. The Hausa for example emphasized more on Bayajidda than the original Daura natives whom Bayajidda met. Those people are older than the Bayajidda immigrant who only brought some ideas that influenced their old tradition.

Abagworo:

That is more or less the only way we can arrive at something tangible. Most Africans tell their oral tradition of origin from the angle of the stranger than the autochtonous. The Hausa for example emphasized more on Bayajidda than the original Daura natives whom Bayajidda met. Those people are older than the Bayajidda immigrant who only brought some ideas that influenced their old tradition.

the reason why it is like that is because those people you call the natives don't actually exist or are just passer-by(maybe farmers,wanderes or hunter)who just settle there with hope of moving out in a short or distant time. So they don't have a sense of ownership of that area. Again those natives maybe very few in number because they are usually being heavily influenced by the bayajida and his companions. Even to the extent of adopting that bayajida language,custom and tradition. That's why the bayajida children will always claim ownership of that area.

Antivirus92: the reason why it is like that is because those people you call the natives don't actually exist or are just passer-by(maybe farmers,wanderes or hunter)who just settle there with hope of moving out in a short or distant time. So they don't have a sense of ownership of that area. Again those natives maybe very few in number because they are usually being heavily influenced by the bayajida and his companions. Even to the extent of adopting that bayajida language,custom and tradition. That's why the bayajida children will always claim ownership of that area.

This might be a bit off topic but looking at those stories you will observe that the reason why they identified the immigrant as the founder is merely because of his organization and restructuring of the natives who sometimes were disorganized or had an established kingdom like (Daura who had a Queen).

A nation full of many ethnic groups.

Antivirus92: you spoke well by understanding what igbo is and knowing where you fall into unlike odumchi that tried to include even ibom people and their culture into igbo. But from the inner most research that i have carried out. Isu,oru,igbo are brothers(may be from the same parents) and they unitedly founded the igbo language,custom and tradition. So abagworo don't go away, you're our brother. I am not trying to chase away people but to make them understand that there is a clear difference between igbo and igbo claimers.

Antivirus92: Talkative! I thought that you're intelligent. How did you just listed the culture you copied from your non igbo neighbours and post them here as igbo culture. Ibini ukpabi,ekpe,nyankpe,okonko,ekpa etc are all not igbo culture but borrowed culture. So don't list them,they don't really count. Even you yourself know that they are not indigeneous to igbo people. They are from ekpa people,ibom people and so on. Ikeji and ifejioku are the same just different names.

The thing I don't understand is why you are trying to make it seem as if you, an Anambra native, is an overlord over all other Igbo who are not from Anambra or do not identify with Nri.

If you truly believe that anything different from what you are accustomed to calling "Igbo" is not "Igbo", then, my friend, I am sorry to say it but you know very little about the people known as Ndi Igbo. I advise you to open your mind before it's too late because mindsets like yours breed disharmony and confusion.

Oh, and by the way, Ikeji and Ifejioku are not the exact same thing.

Alright, the topic seems to want to get back on track now. Good.

Odumchi, I appreciate your further explaining the "building blocks" and their role in what it means "to be Igbo", but to be honest, it doesn't quite explain why you would call Igbo a nation as opposed to an ethnic group. In my understanding, the "building blocks" and what it means "to be Igbo" as echo ethnic consciousness to me.

Afam, I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you believe Igbo to be an ethnic group or a nation? In your post, you qualified Igbo as both.

Ify, what makes you qualify the various Igbo groups as "tribes"?

ChinenyeN: Alright, the topic seems to want to get back on track now. Good.

Odumchi, I appreciate your further explaining the "building blocks" and their role in what it means "to be Igbo", but to be honest, it doesn't quite explain why you would call Igbo a nation as opposed to an ethnic group. In my understanding, the "building blocks" and what it means "to be Igbo" as echo ethnic consciousness to me.

Afam, I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you believe Igbo to be an ethnic group or a nation? In your post, you qualified Igbo as both.

Ify, what makes you qualify the various Igbo groups as "tribes"?

Igbo is an ethnic group that is not yet nation.

odumchi:


The thing I don't understand is why you are trying to make it seem as if you, an Anambra native, is an overlord over all other Igbo who are not from Anambra or do not identify with Nri.

If you truly believe that anything different from what you are accustomed to calling "Igbo" is not "Igbo", then, my friend, I am sorry to say it but you know very little about the people known as Ndi Igbo. I advise you to open your mind before it's too late because mindsets like yours breed disharmony and confusion.

Oh, and by the way, Ikeji and Ifejioku are not the exact same thing.

no anambra man or nri descent is trying to overlord over other igbos. The truth still remains that the anambra/eri/nri people have a better understanding of what igbo is all about than most other people that claim to be igbo. The language,custom,tradition of igbos originated from nsukka -awka-nri-orlu axis, which many historians call the origin of igbo people. I have said it many times that the southern people are confuse about the term "igbo". Again ifejioku is an nnewi version of new yam festival, what is the aro version if not ikeji?

Antivirus92: no anambra man or nri descent is trying to overlord over other igbos. The truth still remains that the anambra/eri/nri people have a better understanding of what igbo is all about than most other people that claim to be igbo. The language,custom,tradition of igbos originated from nsukka -awka-nri-orlu axis, which many historians call the origin of igbo people. I have said it many times that the southern people are confuse about the term "igbo".

This is exactly what I mean. My friend, get off of your horse so that your eyes can see the ground and know things for how they are. There is nothing more obnoxious than telling someone that you know more about them than they do.

Ekwuo m o gwu.

Again ifejioku is an nnewi version of new yam festival, what is the aro version if not ikeji?

Nevermind the fact that it's a New Yam festival, the way Aro celebrates it is totally different from the way Nnewi celebrates it. Forget the fact that both groups are Igbo, Nnewi and Aro[chukwu] lie in entirely different culture zones.

Antivirus92: no anambra man or nri descent is trying to overlord over other igbos. The truth still remains that the anambra/eri/nri people have a better understanding of what igbo is all about than most other people that claim to be igbo. The language,custom,tradition of igbos originated from nsukka -awka-nri-orlu axis, which many historians call the origin of igbo people. I have said it many times that the southern people are confuse about the term "igbo". Again ifejioku is an nnewi version of new yam festival, what is the aro version if not ikeji?

The bolded is an insult.

ChinenyeN: Alright, the topic seems to want to get back on track now. Good.

Odumchi, I appreciate your further explaining the "building blocks" and their role in what it means "to be Igbo", but to be honest, it doesn't quite explain why you would call Igbo a nation as opposed to an ethnic group. In my understanding, the "building blocks" and what it means "to be Igbo" as echo ethnic consciousness to me.

There are various sub-ethnic elements within the Igbo nation that are capable of being called "ethnic groups" (look at Ikwere). When these sub-ethnic groups unite to collectively answer "Igbo", then that makes them a nation.

When united, they are known as "Igbo" but when fragmented and alienated, they are known as whatever their sub-ethnic name is. That's why it's wrong for some to say that they are "more Igbo" than others.

Btw, how are you dealing with Sandy?