It appears my brother Mr. MetaPhysical is all alone in his bid to tout the Yoruba AfroAsia origins theory.

I don't even seem to understand your argument anymore.

- Is it about Oduduwa coming from Mecca with his band to usurp power?

OR

- Is it about Yoruba as a group migrating from Mecca/AfroAsia?

You seem to be mixing or merging up the two and fervently trying to convince people with AfroAsia origins of both.

I think the fact that you're not an etymologist nor a linguist historian isn't making people give your argument serious consideration. And you've also not been able to point at art, music, political system etc that appear both in AfroAsia/Mecca & Yorubaland; for the Yoruba migration wave and if for Oduduwa migration, please cite any Arabia record that details it and any similarities Oduduwa brought with him.

As I said on the other thread, let's look around -there's Oke Ora theory, Benin theory and according to Mr.Macof, there's Iwo-Eleru theory - these are all immediate and you could use your energy to research this, rather than appear as a religious fanatic or someone trying to subtly proselytize.

Mr. Pagan 9ja has taken you up on the Arab/Islam part and it would be nice to see how that plays out.

Anyways, I'm enjoy your inputs and every other person's so far.

Cheers.

MetaPhysical:

You answered Salat, now give answer for Salute.

Salute is a gesture of respect, usually the type done by the army guyz.

9jacrip: It appears my brother Mr. MetaPhysical is all alone in his bid to tout the Yoruba AfroAsia origins theory.

I don't even seem to understand your argument anymore.

- Is it about Oduduwa coming from Mecca with his band to usurp power?

OR

- Is it about Yoruba as a group migrating from Mecca/AfroAsia?

You seem to be mixing or merging up the two and fervently trying to convince people with AfroAsia origins of both.

I think the fact that you're not an etymologist nor a linguist historian isn't making people give your argument serious consideration. And you've also not been able to point at art, music, political system etc that appear both in AfroAsia/Mecca & Yorubaland; for the Yoruba migration wave and if for Oduduwa migration, please cite any Arabia record that details it and any similarities Oduduwa brought with him.

As I said on the other thread, let's look around -there's Oke Ora theory, Benin theory and according to Mr.Macof, there's Iwo-Eleru theory - these are all immediate and you could use your energy to research this, rather than appear as a religious fanatic or someone trying to subtly proselytize.

Mr. Pagan 9ja has taken you up on the Arab/Islam part and it would be nice to see how that plays out.

Anyways, I'm enjoy your inputs and every other person's so far.

Cheers.

Hey, wassup bro?

I believe you misunderstand me and my quest. There are two camps, Im on the opposite camp from your position. Your belief in the indigenous theory serves as a motivation for me to dig deeper and work harder in my quest to connect the dots between Yoruba and AfroAsia. If everybody believes in the AfroAsia theory, then what would be reason for me doing this? Likewise, if everyone believes in the indigenous theory then its a waste of your time preaching about Iwo Eleru.

Put this in perspective brother. Without the enemy who put up a gallant barrier and fortification and stood obstinately in defense of their land, no invading Army can have heroes in honor. This paradox is in the realm of Esu. We are Yorubas, lets take wisdom from our own philosophical teachings.

I respect Katsumoto and all his nonsense, its plenty of sense in what he has submitted but I disagree with the position of indigeneity. Terracota makes sense and so do you, but we will never see eye to eye even though youve earned my respect.

Dont take it personal, we are all learning and we need one another to inspire the knowledge.

PAGAN 9JA:


Salute is a gesture of respect, usually the type done by the army guyz.

That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute?
You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

Paga9ja,

I had a burning urge to get my response to you but unexpected visitors dropped in.

Salat is not prayer. Prayer is Duah. Salat is peace! It evolved from Salam.

In military regimen the Salute came from ancient tradition of baring hands to reveal "peaceful" intent towards the receiving officer.

In social parlance, Salute is a peaceful exchange.

You said Salute did not come from Salat. I will like to understand where it came from.

MetaPhysical:

That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute?
You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

I dont understand. I just told you what salute is.

unless you can tell me something

PAGAN 9JA:


I just remembered to answer this question.

What is funny is that, of the 6 pillars of islam, none are pre-islamic, save the last one (ehich is again subject to debate) .

Anyways, some pre-islamic customs in todays islam:

-Circumambulation of the Ka'abah.
- Use of the Ka'abah itself.
-Acknowledgement of the black stone.
-The black stone's outer silver casing is shaped similar to a womans ------. I dont know if this is a coincidence or the shape has remained unchanged, or whether the ottomans built it that way and it has remained. if it is true, then this must be a fertility symbol, as people are known to carress and kiss the stone as well.
-The forbidding of killing of Rabbits, Ghazelle and cutting down of trees in and around the premises of the Ka'abah. Hunting is prohibited, and it is known as Haram (Forbidden). This shows that Mecca is a Hauta, i.e., a sacred grove. There are many such Hautas found across Arabia were hunting and lopping of date trees is forbidden. These are sites of long-forgotten shrines and cults.
-ritual abolution.
-use of the Zamzam spring and its sacredness. It is common in sacred groves to have sacred springs, the water of which wouldve been used in he past for actual ritual purposes.
-Running between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
-Bowing and mode of worship to the God.
-Acknowledgement of Allah.
-Belief in the Fates.
-Lunar Calender, sacredness of the Moon.
-Festival of Ramadaan. Festival of Eid.
-Sacrifice of Rams. (Animal Sacrifice)
-Use of Poetry in prayer.

etc. .

Pagan,

What is inside the Kaabah, do you know?

MetaPhysical:

Pagan,

What is inside the Kaabah, do you know?

Yes there is nothing.

Just 3 pillars and some inscriptions in Arabic on the walls.

PAGAN 9JA:


who said life started in Ehtiopia

I don't know where people get this from

740megawatts: I think evolution happened after pangea. This is logical because pangea led to different climatic conditions as a result of continental shelves travelling away from Africa. This would explain the need for genetic re-programming for adaptability. But then, this would only be true if apes had spread out before pangea.

this makes sense. Because pre-humans couldn't have spread across the world if pangea already happened

Katsumoto:

I don't doubt that you can show examples. But what I find funny is that on one hand you claimed that evolution happened after migration and then on the other hand you are claiming that there are similarities between gods in different groups. That there is inconsistency.

In any case, you introduced evolution into the debate. Macof fed into it because it fits into his belief of the world being created at Ife. We know that to be false. Ife may have been the pre-eminent Yoruba state at some point but there is nothing to suggest that there weren't other Yoruba groups around at the same time.

Of course I know Yorubas didn't know who Thor was.

I am not saying that Ife is where the world was created, I am saying that Ife is where the Yoruba ancestors that were ape-like evolved into modern man.

That's why Yoruba people can't remember any history predating Ife.

So it's wrong for people to claim anywhere other than Ife as the origin of Yoruba

There were also other Towns around Ife eg Iwo, Doromi, iranje, oke-ora(seems this one was actually part of Ife) but these places recognized Ife has their origin.

Ife before Oduduwa was a place wit other independent communities

Katsumoto:

That is inconclusive. All ancient groups had the same survival needs, hence why there are similarities in the gods they prayed to. And the Sango carrying hammer was a non-Yoruba creation; as Sango was said to be Thor's cousin.

Where did u get this from

Even before the name "Sango" was given to the force of lightening, "Jakuta" was used and also had a hammer which u used to shape stones and send them down to earth as lightening.

Sango(the human, king of Oyo) used a double headed axe and when he died, Sango(the force of lightening) was portrayed holding a double headed axe

Thor holding hammer, controlling lightening isn't a coincidence.

It means Thor and Sango are same force with different personification

macof:

I am not saying that Ife is where the world was created, I am saying that Ife is where the Yoruba ancestors that were ape-like evolved into modern man.

That's why Yoruba people can't remember any history predating Ife.

So it's wrong for people to claim anywhere other than Ife as the origin of Yoruba

There were also other Towns around Ife eg Iwo, Doromi, iranje, oke-ora(seems this one was actually part of Ife) but these places recognized Ife has their origin.

Ife before Oduduwa was a place wit other independent communities

macof, macof, I have given you the clue, abi o ti gbagbe "great Ape" ni? Omo nla!

macof:

Where did u get this from

Even before the name "Sango" was given to the force of lightening, "Jakuta" was used and also had a hammer which u used to shape stones and send them down to earth as lightening.

Sango(the human, king of Oyo) used a double headed axe and when he died, Sango(the force of lightening) was portrayed holding a double headed axe

Thor holding hammer, controlling lightening isn't a coincidence.

It means Thor and Sango are same force with different personification

Hammer and Axe are not the same things.

ladionline:

macof, macof, I have given you the clue, abi o ti gbagbe "great Ape" ni? Omo nla!

egbon mo gbagbe o, jo ron ti mi

Katsumoto:

Hammer and Axe are not the same things.

But lightening is

macof:

But lightening is

And what does that prove?

Katsumoto:

And what does that prove?

If u don't still get it, I wonder how u would

macof:

I am not saying that Ife is where the world was created, I am saying that Ife is where the Yoruba ancestors that were ape-like evolved into modern man.

That's why Yoruba people can't remember any history predating Ife.

So it's wrong for people to claim anywhere other than Ife as the origin of Yoruba

There were also other Towns around Ife eg Iwo, Doromi, iranje, oke-ora(seems this one was actually part of Ife) but these places recognized Ife has their origin.

Ife before Oduduwa was a place wit other independent communities

Yoruba know who they are, You people belief Elijah went to heaven with chariot of fire, belief in immaculate conception belief in ascension to heaven.but disprove Oduduwa descending from heaven with chain .Blacks will always be black with their brainwash thick skull. You can never separate myths and history they go together.

PAGAN 9JA:


Yes there is nothing.

Just 3 pillars and some inscriptions in Arabic on the walls.

Kabah is meteorite that fell from sky black stone ,they worship it

740megawatts:

So, you believe all the names I listed above have no relevance to ancient kemetic sun god, HORUS? You and I both know that religious practices changes over time, this happened even in ancient Egypt itself. The Pharaohs in Kemetic period had supreme powers to determine the state religion, and this is often enforced everywhere. Infact, there are numerous cases of subjugation of gods over others depending on the number of influential followers they have in those days. My take is this, all those names I listed as being related to indigenous Yoruba worship are more than 90% related to Horus. The Horus worship was far the most influential cult in the whole of Nubia and Kemet (Misri). Let's look at these quotes:

"The use of his name was also widespread in personal names throughout Egyptian history, and Hor, as a personal name, survives into our modern era in a number of different forms.

The original form of Horus was probably that of a sky god, known as "lord of the sky". The Egyptian word " her" (hor, har), from which the god's name is derived means "the one on high", or "the distant one", probably in reference to the soaring flight of the hunting falcon, if not a reference to the solar aspect of the god.

Horus was apparently worshipped at some of Egypt's earliest shrines such as at Nekhen (Heirakonpolis), where he was assimilated with a number of other local falcon gods. In this capacity, Horus was the patron of the Nekhen monarchy that grew into the historical pharaonic state and hence, the first known national god.
"

Here's the interesting one, the worship of Horus actually spanned over three thousand years (3000 years):

"However, one must remember that this god's worship spanned some three thousand years, during which time he was venerated throughout Egypt, as well as outside of Egypt."

Read more: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm#ixzz2lNbMR400

I don't have time to cite books as I am very busy at the moment. As you can see, It is most likely that this cult existed and was very popular among the ancient Yoruba people. However, it's prominence must have diminished over years due to new religious ideas been proposed to replace the older religious settings. Might I add, that even the cult of Isis might have been carried into Yorubaland, I read somewhere that ISESE is the corruption of Isis.

So to your doubts, did the Yoruba forefathers ever worship the sun? Well, it is absolutely very possible as there are no written records dating back events before 1 AD to confirm our correctness. But even as recent as 1900's, we had rock worship, river worship (Osun river), tree worship; so why not sun worship as far back as 1 AD?

Yoruba worship moon " Osu"and sun and four cardinal point forces . Think they've stopped sun watch.

Marcof, I'm glad of your final descovery of yoruba origin. You finally hit at home what terracotta radoillo 9Jacrip et all were trying to say. charles Darwing is wiser than Yoruba ancestors put together. The world did not have history until Darwin came. Biology can not make mistake, its MAN'S gift to man. Darwin did not only describe creation as it ought to be, he created it. Darwin is the most high MAN, by the time we evolve as gods (next level) we can elect someone as the most high god. For the records, you will find the Iwo or Ife man, like the pittsburg man, I Want to suggest a name for it: homo macof.

Obalufon: Yoruba worship moon " Osu"and sun and four cardinal point forces . Think they've stopped sun watch.

Where pls?

I have never heard of moon and Sun worship

And to ur moniker do u know anything about Obalufon deity? I need info on this

ladionline: Marcof, I'm glad of your final descovery of yoruba origin. You finally hit at home what terracotta radoillo 9Jacrip et all were trying to say. charles Darwing is wiser than Yoruba ancestors put together. The world did not have history until Darwin came. Biology can not make mistake, its MAN'S gift to man. Darwin did not only describe creation as it ought to be, he created it. Darwin is the most high MAN, by the time we evolve as gods (next level) we can elect someone as the most high god. For the records, you will find the Iwo or Ife man, like the pittsburg man, I Want to suggest a name for it: homo macof.

Katsumoto:

Hammer and Axe are not the same things.

both are implements. even the shape of the items depicted is similar.

PAGAN 9JA:


both are implements. even the shape of the items depicted is similar.

There are thousands of different groups in the world; I dont get what point that proves.

macof:

If u don't still get it, I wonder how u would

Don't be condescending. Be explicit and lucid.

Katsumoto:

Don't be condescending. Be explicit and lucid.

You're wasting your time with this one and his companion. They are not Yoruba and have no genuine interest in Yoruba (or broader Nigerian) history either. They've been here under a series of other names before and were likely banned. Sooner or later, they will disappear and come back under new names.

Sadly for them, they will have to continue forsaking their own culture in order to learn enough Yoruba history to participate in these discussions

Katsumoto:

Don't be condescending. Be explicit and lucid.

I don't know how else to explain ni

Sango God of lightening and thunder
Thor God of lightening and thunder

Both wielding heavy weapons used to generate lightening

Even zeus has a sword he uses to direct lightening bolts

It's the same force just that the people understand it differently and give it different personifications

TerraCotta:

You're wasting your time with this one and his companion. They are not Yoruba and have no genuine interest in Yoruba (or broader Nigerian) history either. They've been here under a series of other names before and were likely banned. Sooner or later, they will disappear and come back under new names.

Sadly for them, they will have to continue forsaking their own culture in order to learn enough Yoruba history to participate in these discussions

I swear by the Gods, this has been my only Nairaland account, ever since Ive joined.

you can check my history as well.

TerraCotta:

I know that Dr. Falola's books, and virtually every other mainstream historian, characterize Oduduwa as a man. Even Ade Obayemi does in most of his work. My point is not that Oduduwa was "really" a man or a woman--the point is that Oduduwa is a mythological character whose identity is shaped by political motivations in the case of current Ife, Benin etc. claims. In my view, it is unlikely there was ever a single man or woman named Oduduwa, and the earliest references I know of to someone named Oduduwa seem to be to an Ife goddess associated with the Ogboni society in Ife.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxL03_ajZNgC&pg=PA7&dq=ife+before+oduduwa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FrhmUrb2BsqAygGr7YCwDQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ife%20before%20oduduwa&f=false



I think I've clarified this now. In my opinion, Oduduwa is part of a complex of Yoruba mythic references to powerful figures and leadership. The word "Odu" is in fact an archaic word for "political head" or chief. We can see it in use with several other mythic terms with which the name shares some similarities, like Ol"odu"mare and "Odu" Ifa.

I believe Reverend Johnson's excellent book "History of the Yorubas" has some well-known flaws when discussing events before the 19th century. I think many modern readers (historians and non-specialists alike) have relied on his interpretation of Oduduwa as a warrior-king or ancestor of other kings in the general Yoruba-Edo region. As I showed in the other post, other historians who wrote before and after Johnson disagree with his view, but eventually Johnson's view has become the mainstream one. Notably, in Ketu (considered the eldest of the "original" kingdoms), Oduduwa is considered a woman.

There are references to possible historical figures who initiated new dynasties at Ife--Lajamusan, Oranmiyan and others--but even these are not certain. There are even other locations named Ife (or dialectical variations like Ufe, Ife, Iffeh etc), including Ife-Ijummu, which is Obayemi's hometown. History is a lot more complex than the simplified story of a single man or even a single dynasty.



Okay. Look forward to talking some other time.

Ok this is an interesting point of view. So in line with this view, who sired Alaketu, Onipopo, Onisabe, Oranmiyan, Olowu, etc?

I am willing to explore this line of thought.

PAGAN 9JA:


I dont understand. I just told you what salute is.

unless you can tell me something

That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute? You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

Paga9ja,

I had a burning urge to get my response to you but unexpected visitors dropped in.

Salat is not prayer. Prayer is Duah. Salat is peace! It evolved from Salam.

In military regimen the Salute came from ancient tradition of baring hands to reveal "peaceful" intent towards the receiving officer.

In social parlance, Salute is a peaceful exchange.

You said Salute did not come from Salat. I will like to understand where it came from.

PAGAN 9JA:


Yes there is nothing.

Just 3 pillars and some inscriptions in Arabic on the walls.

I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...