MetaPhysical:

I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...

Haram is crime not sacred

Show me proof that it means sacred

macof:

Haram is crime not sacred

Show me proof that it means sacred

What is sacred in Arabic?

MetaPhysical:

What is sacred in Arabic?

Muqaddas I think.

I am not disputing Macof's claim that indigenous Yoruba life started at Ife. He may be right in his own perspective because I wasn't there at that fractal point in time. My own theory is that there were latter migrant populations (from outside) at time intervals who eventually shaped the Yoruba culture, tradition, religion and kingship altogether. Not at once, but at such a stepwise historical interval that led to what we have now. For example, I am 100% certain that we had migrants from lower and upper Egypt in the ancient times because I can see their evidences in the Yoruba religion. I can vividly see the sun god (Horus) renamed Orun (Sun), moon god (Khonsu) renamed Osupa (moon), even the earth god, Gebu and fertility goddess, Isis. These four cults are embedded in Yoruba religion and have been surprisingly preserved over time. For this I am awed: could the Yorubas be the last custodians of what was left of ancient Kemetic gods? How were these names preserved for such a long time? Can the presence of these cults give us a historical timeline on the Yoruba migrant origin itself? These are the questions that readily come to my mind.

On a softer note, I saw Radoillo on another thread trying to validate the null claim of Canaanite influence in Africa through kidstrangehold's haplogroup theory. In my own opinion, if Bantus could have travelled from Misri to as far as South Africa and the Lemba tribe with verified Hebrew claim are found in faraway Zimbabwe, then nothing is impossible. My only concern is that Canaanite influence on Yoruba may not be genetic but only cultural and/or religion. In addition, these may have been transmitted by migrant middlemen. However, it is only a theory as we cannot currently find specialist history books because it is still very weak (and informal) to many Yorubas inspite of Dierk's Lange research. In the absence of written historical Yoruba records for over say 3500 yrs, a lot may have happened. Infact, a lot happened!

Great week to all...

Tony Spike: I am not disputing Macof's claim that indigenous Yoruba life started at Ife. He may be right in his own perspective because I wasn't there at that fractal point in time. My own theory is that there were latter migrant populations (from outside) at time intervals who eventually shaped the Yoruba culture, tradition, religion and kingship altogether. Not at once, but at such a stepwise historical interval that led to what we have now. For example, I am 100% certain that we had migrants from lower and upper Egypt in the ancient times because I can see their evidences in the Yoruba religion. I can vividly see the sun god (Horus) renamed Orun (Sun), moon god (Khonsu) renamed Osupa (moon), even the earth god, Gebu and fertility goddess, Isis. These four cults are embedded in Yoruba religion and have been surprisingly preserved over time. For this I am awed: could the Yorubas be the last custodians of what was left of ancient Kemetic gods? How were these names preserved for such a long time? Can the presence of these cults give us a historical timeline on the Yoruba migrant origin itself? These are the questions that readily come to my mind.

On a softer note, I saw Radoillo on another thread trying to validate the null claim of Canaanite influence in Africa through kidstrangehold's haplogroup theory. In my own opinion, if Bantus could have travelled from Misri to as far as South Africa and the Lemba tribe with verified Hebrew claim are found in faraway Zimbabwe, then nothing is impossible. My only concern is that Canaanite influence on Yoruba may not be genetic but only cultural and/or religion. In addition, these may have been transmitted by migrant middlemen. However, it is only a theory as we cannot currently find specialist history books because it is still very weak (and informal) to many Yorubas inspite of Dierk's Lange research. In the absence of written historical Yoruba records for over say 3500 yrs, a lot may have happened. Infact, a lot happened!

Great week to all...

Your theory could actually be right, but such clans that would have migrated to Ife can't be known in this present time.

I have seen an article with similarities of over 400 words between kemet and Yoruba.

But culture-wise we aren't similar

Hello Tony, I know you will buy into macof theory of evolution. Well i dont because Darwinian theory is 'politico', 'precept of biology'. Just type in 'Darwin is a racist' to google and study the feedback. Imagine if his precept had been possible! I will be moaning in one portacabin now if not yet extinted. There is eternity of difference between 'science fantasy' and 'fantastic science'. Those folks on the ijebu thread are die-hard science fantasists, rumbling endlessly in selfish prudence of their knowledge without truce forever. Fantastic science is ability to explain the obvious with minimal word and resource usage for maximal, durable and verifiable applications, with nothing to do with your biases. These punks are zealot and overtrained geeks obsessed with biological doctrines and academic 'dogma'. They are pathetically busy with the burden of proof.

macof:

Your theory could actually be right, but such clans that would have migrated to Ife can't be known in this present time.

I have seen an article with similarities of over 400 words between kemet and Yoruba.

But culture-wise we aren't similar

At the bolded, I wouldn't come to a swift conclusion if I were you. Do you have a compendium of all the cultural practices at Kemet and Sudan in the ancient times? Do you know how much culture the migrants brought along with them? Do we have an idea of what a Yoruba indigenous culture looked before their arrival? Like I said, the Yoruba ancient history is very imcomplete and lots of archaeological investigations are required to make a valid conclusion(s). Unfortunately, we don't have many researchers in this area currently. Until such time, a lot of questions will remain unanswered.

Katsumoto:

Ok this is an interesting point of view. So in line with this view, who sired Alaketu, Onipopo, Onisabe, Oranmiyan, Olowu, etc?

We don't know. They are mainly heads of Yoruba-speaking polities today (Onipopo is debatable below) but I doubt that they are all descended from one solitary Ife monarch. All traditions agree that Ife is the source of their political structure and cultural traditions but I don't think that's the same thing as descending directly from one mythic figure. Here's a quick rundown of the recorded myths I can think of though:

1. In Ketu's case, the ruling Alaketu in the 1950s told Geoffrey Parrinder that he was descended from a man named So-ipasan and his wife Oduduwa (see "The Story of Ketu" ). Not much work has been done to elaborate on who So-ipasan is supposed to be.

2. Onipopo hasn't been properly identified as far as I know. The suggestion is that this is an Oyo reference to Grand Popo/Little Popo in modern Benin and Togo or the Dahomean area more generally, but that title isn't in use so it's probably a general reference to a ruler in the Ewe/Fon-speaking area.

3. Save/Sabe is another older settlement whose traditions haven't been properly recorded. The most detailed works on Sabe history are in French and the little I've read speculates that they are related to a formerly widespread polity called the Sha or Esa (several other groups share the name, including Idaaicha. Sakete, Savalu and Ijesa may refer to the same suffix; I won't speculate on the term 'orisa' here), with possible Bariba/Borgu connections. Again, little has been done to follow up on these ideas so we don't know how much validity we should give them. I have some references I can share if you're interested though.

4. Oranmiyan is one of the more interesting figures in Ife history. The prominent monument that's supposed to be his weapon/walking stick in the middle of Ife suggests that he was an important person, whether mythological or historical. As I mentioned in another thread, Reverend Johnson says that he believes Oranmiyan was a title or nickname (he says his 'proper' name was Odede). If true, this idea makes 'Oranmiyan' and his ability to lead Ife as an oba, establish a new Ife-related 'oba' dynasty at Benin, and then establish one at Oyo too a little more plausible. Oranmiyan would be a title and not a single person. The meaning may connote a 'voyager', 'traveler' etc. Again, we don't know how much is myth and how much is reality.

Ife, Benin, Oyo etc aren't unique in finding difficulties when unraveling traditions of origin. The foundational myths of people and places with well-documented histories aren't all that clear either. To give a parallel example, Romulus and Remus supposedly founded Rome after being fathered by Hercules or Mars and raised by she-wolves and shepherds. That account appeared in the earliest published books by Roman historians, but it would be hard to take it seriously as "history" today. It's an allegorical story about origins that have been forgotten. The same can be said for any of the well-known polities of antiquity, and many of those have written histories going back for thousands of years.

In Ife and the related Yoruba-speaking area, the historical ties certainly go back thousands of years if we use linguistic evidence, but there's not much reason to believe that one family was responsible for all the political innovations of the last thousand years. What is sure is that Ife was a manufacturing site for important accessories of government--glass beads, crowns, brass ('bronze') objects and art, and elaborate royal mythologies. These were very widely-traded and extremely rare and valuable before European contact, when other sources for beads, copper/brass and so on became available. It suggests that there were strong economic and cultural reasons for Ife's prominence.

Overall, I think we would benefit from separating royal myths of origin from cultural history, but that's an even longer conversation. Suffice to say that dynasties and royal familes, like politicians in general, have reasons to emphasize or suppress historical events. We cannot rely on one perspective from kings or queens to tell the whole story of societies, especially in areas like the Yoruba-Edo region where there are other compelling traditions from other political groups like Ogboni/Osugbo, Uzama, Oyo Mesi and so on. There are also non-royal and non-political historical traditions to collect and compare as well.

PAGAN 9JA:


I swear by the Gods, this has been my only Nairaland account, ever since Ive joined.

you can check my history as well.

I wasn't referring to you there, so no offense meant. The culprits know themselves.

macof:

Where pls?

I have never heard of moon and Sun worship

And to ur moniker do u know anything about Obalufon deity? I need info on this

Yoruba used to worship the Sun in the olden days through awareness the worship of the sun was dropped because it involves blood sacrifice.According to ifa religion Orunmila Barami Agbonmeregun forbid and put an end to human sacrifice. if you study ifa you'll know this. The worship of moon still commence till date "OSU" moon fertility not just popular anymore

Katsumoto:

Muqaddas I think.

Muqaddas is a mentor, teacher or guide that oversees the opening of the inner light in spiritual quests.

Haram is sacred limits into which the introduction of uncleanliness or impurities are forbidden.

@ Terra Cotta

I believe Oranyan (Oranmiyan in Benin) was one person and he sired the kings at Oyo and Benin. The reference to a woman (Oduduwa) in Ketu might have been to Okanbi's daughter who married the first Alaketu; since the original Alaketu was a son-in-law. I don't have any reason to doubt Oduduwa's grandchildren moving to other parts of the SW to start new kingdoms. Afterall, Oranyan went to Benin, Niger, etc. If Oranyan was just a title, then who sired Ajaka and Sango?

In all of my submissions, including my first post in response to you, I separated what I believed to be mythological/cosmogonic history from what I believe to be actual history. If you label most history as mythological, where (date) do you believe the cultural history started? Oduduwa was female in traditional Ifa religion and male in Yoruba mythology. In that myth, Oduduwa climbed down a chain. There are elements of facts in mythology but it is just usually exaggerated and embellished by offsprings of the legends. Sango was an Alaafin who was defied after his death and became a god. Did his wives really turn into rivers? No but legend made it so. The same with the Oduduwa/Obatala rivalry and feud.

Interesting but we have to agree to disagree.

MetaPhysical:

That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute? You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

Paga9ja,

I had a burning urge to get my response to you but unexpected visitors dropped in.

Salat is not prayer. Prayer is Duah. Salat is peace! It evolved from Salam.

In military regimen the Salute came from ancient tradition of baring hands to reveal "peaceful" intent towards the receiving officer.

In social parlance, Salute is a peaceful exchange.

You said Salute did not come from Salat. I will like to understand where it came from.

bullsh.it. (no offence intended).

Salat/Salah is compulsory prayer. It is done 5 times a day.

Salah is the formal prayer. its verb will be "Yusalli" ( to pray).



Duah is an invocation . it is a personal prayer and does not involve the islamic formal ritualised style and recitation of Surahs in Arabic.


It can be done anytime, anywhere, anyhow.



Salute (the physical action) is derived from medival times when knights used to raise the visor of thier helmet before going into combat, while facing the opponent, as a sign of acknowledgement.

The "word" Salute has latin roots.

MetaPhysical:

I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...

lol haram does not mean sacred (as brother Macof said).

Haram means forbidden.

for example , if you are eating pig, muslims say "haram".

it means you are doing taboo.

or if you are doing something bad or saying some bad words, Arabs say "Haram aleyk!"

(you are doing wrong)

not that you are doing something sacred.

Katsumoto:

Muqaddas I think.

thats right.

Tony Spike: I am not disputing Macof's claim that indigenous Yoruba life started at Ife. He may be right in his own perspective because I wasn't there at that fractal point in time. My own theory is that there were latter migrant populations (from outside) at time intervals who eventually shaped the Yoruba culture, tradition, religion and kingship altogether. Not at once, but at such a stepwise historical interval that led to what we have now. For example, I am 100% certain that we had migrants from lower and upper Egypt in the ancient times because I can see their evidences in the Yoruba religion. I can vividly see the sun god (Horus) renamed Orun (Sun), moon god (Khonsu) renamed Osupa (moon), even the earth god, Gebu and fertility goddess, Isis. These four cults are embedded in Yoruba religion and have been surprisingly preserved over time. For this I am awed: could the Yorubas be the last custodians of what was left of ancient Kemetic gods? How were these names preserved for such a long time? Can the presence of these cults give us a historical timeline on the Yoruba migrant origin itself? These are the questions that readily come to my mind.

Load of bullshi.t

these Egyptian freaks have come again.

How many times do I have to emphasize that Pagan religions have similarities.


In that case, the HIndus have a higher claim to Egyptian descent than the Yorubas.

I dont want to go into details.






Tony Spike, one question.

Are you akata?

Tony Spike:

At the bolded, I wouldn't come to a swift conclusion if I were you. Do you have a compendium of all the cultural practices at Kemet and Sudan in the ancient times? Do you know how much culture the migrants brought along with them? Do we have an idea of what a Yoruba indigenous culture looked before their arrival? Like I said, the Yoruba ancient history is very imcomplete and lots of archaeological investigations are required to make a valid conclusion(s). Unfortunately, we don't have many researchers in this area currently. Until such time, a lot of questions will remain unanswered.

There is no similarity in either food, language, clothing, LOOOKS, or anything.

stop wasting your time.

I know you are dreaming of connecting the Yorubas to the Egyptian civilization.

If you are Yoruba, then let me tell you to stop your inferiority complex. it is annoying and foolish.

if there is anyone who has the greatest claim to Egyptian ancestry, it is todays Egyptians, especially the Saidis and to some extent, the Nubians.

MetaPhysical:

I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...

In continuation here..

Al Masjid al Haram is the official designation of the Holy Mosque in Mecca. The grounds is a valley sorrounded by hills. There are two places in ancient Semitic traditions -pre Jewish, pre Christianity and pre Islam - where SIGIDI was an object of veneration and people bowed to them in designated shrines or Masjid:

1. Jerusalem
2. Mecca.

The tradition in Jerusalem and in Mecca were identical. The worship of the calf in old Jewish culture is what later spread East and evolved into the sacredness of cows in Hindu society. The Hindus also bow and prostrate and touch head to the ground in worship.

The tradition in Mecca was later to be integrated into the practice when Muhammed (SAWS) began preaching Islam. He instructed his followers to face either of the two Masjids when they prostrate in prayer. This is why till today Masjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem and Masjid Al Haram in Mecca are the two Holiest grounds for Muslims.

Historians have revealed that Jubal or Hubal was the king or head of the SIGIDIs in the sacred valley of Mecca. Jubal is the one always on the altar in the inner chamber.

Pagan9ja, you mentioned everything in the Kaabah but left out the "altar". An altar is still in there. I dont know if its the same one Jubal sat on or a symbolic representation of the original one.

Jubal has been misrepresented by Historians, similar to what was done to Esu, but on a smaller scale.

Yorubas use the term "juba" to denote veneration at an altar and or in the offering of libation. "Mo juba fun Eledumare"; "Mo juba fun Olojo". Iba is the veneration to the one who sits at the head or the throne or, as in the case of Mecca, on the altar.

It is interesting that Jubal, sitting on an altar placed in the inner chamber of an enclosed shrine located in a sacred (haram) valley, has also been associated with 301 gods resident in the city of Mecca.

I said earlier that "haram"; "aram"; "irum"; "orum"; "urum"; "urim"..are all co-rooted.

Yoruba have "Irumale", but we also have "Orunmila.

The Jews have "Uriml", most often just called Urim!

What is Irumale and what is Orunmila?

In Yoruba belief, informed by the ancient manuscript, Ifa, Irumale is the sacred primordial and Orunmila is the sacred word. 201 gods descend from Orunmila in heaven and 201 gods rise up from Irumale on earth. These form a shield around a sacred throne.

This is where the myth of 401 gods of Ile Ife came from. It is also the same tradition that is attributed to Jubal and the 301 gods of Mecca. In the New Testament of the Bible and in Revelation, this is what the shield around the sacred throne is talking about. The Urim of Jewish tradition has an opposite pair called Thulim and this is what their sacredness denote.

When the Yoruba kneel and touch his head to the ground or prostrate and touch his head to the ground, he is observing ancient rites of worship common to Ife, Mecca and Jerusalem and by extension, Hindus and Tibetans in Asia.
The Sajadah of Muslims is the same as the Sojude of Yoruba and the prostration of Jews and Christians in Jerusalem and Vatican.

There is nowhere else on this planet these rites of worship and belief principles are practiced..if we find a society that does and is their ancient tradition, then that society also has its root in AfroAsia. It is not a universal principle or article of faith, its unique.

What I shared above has barely scratched the surface of the deep well of knowledge connecting Yoruba art, worship, tongue, gods and so on to AfroAsia.

We can query whether Jerusalem and Mecca were the migrants out of Ife and these customs were exported from Ife as point of origin. There is nothing wrong with this reverse line of thought and in which case the vindication will be that such an after-thought is possible because the first recorders of literature were the voice of history and the shapers of knowledge, hence Yoruba did not win the premier position due to its lag in recording human history.

MetaPhysical:

In continuation here..

Al Masjid al Haram is the official designation of the Holy Mosque in Mecca. The grounds is a valley sorrounded by hills. There are two places in ancient Semitic traditions -pre Jewish, pre Christianity and pre Islam - where SIGIDI was an object of veneration and people bowed to them in designated shrines or Masjid:

1. Jerusalem
2. Mecca.

The tradition in Jerusalem and in Mecca were identical. The worship of the calf in old Jewish culture is what later spread East and evolved into the sacredness of cows in Hindu society. The Hindus also bow and prostrate and touch head to the ground in worship.

The tradition in Mecca was later to be integrated into the practice when Muhammed (SAWS) began preaching Islam. He instructed his followers to face either of the two Masjids when they prostrate in prayer. This is why till today Masjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem and Masjid Al Haram in Mecca are the two Holiest grounds for Muslims.

Historians have revealed that Jubal or Hubal was the king or head of the SIGIDIs in the sacred valley of Mecca. Jubal is the one always on the altar in the inner chamber.

Pagan9ja, you mentioned everything in the Kaabah but left out the "altar". An altar is still in there. I dont know if its the same one Jubal sat on or a symbolic representation of the original one.

Jubal has been misrepresented by Historians, similar to what was done to Esu, but on a smaller scale.

Yorubas use the term "juba" to denote veneration at an altar and or in the offering of libation. "Mo juba fun Eledumare"; "Mo juba fun Olojo". Iba is the veneration to the one who sits at the head or the throne or, as in the case of Mecca, on the altar.

It is interesting that Jubal, sitting on an altar placed in the inner chamber of an enclosed shrine located in a sacred (haram) valley, has also been associated with 301 gods resident in the city of Mecca.

I said earlier that "haram"; "aram"; "irum"; "orum"; "urum"; "urim"..are all co-rooted.

Yoruba have "Irumale", but we also have "Orunmila.

The Jews have "Uriml", most often just called Urim!

What is Irumale and what is Orunmila?

In Yoruba belief, informed by the ancient manuscript, Ifa, Irumale is the sacred primordial and Orunmila is the sacred word. 201 gods descend from Orunmila in heaven and 201 gods rise up from Irumale on earth. These form a shield around a sacred throne.

This is where the myth of 401 gods of Ile Ife came from. It is also the same tradition that is attributed to Jubal and the 301 gods of Mecca. In the New Testament of the Bible and in Revelation, this is what the shield around the sacred throne is talking about. The Urim of Jewish tradition has an opposite pair called Thulim and this is what their sacredness denote.

When the Yoruba kneel and touch his head to the ground or prostrate and touch his head to the ground, he is observing ancient rites of worship common to Ife, Mecca and Jerusalem and by extension, Hindus and Tibetans in Asia.
The Sajadah of Muslims is the same as the Sojude of Yoruba and the prostration of Jews and Christians in Jerusalem and Vatican.

There is nowhere else on this planet these rites of worship and belief principles are practiced..if we find a society that does and is their ancient tradition, then that society also has its root in AfroAsia. It is not a universal principle or article of faith, its unique.

What I shared above has barely scratched the surface of the deep well of knowledge connecting Yoruba art, worship, tongue, gods and so on to AfroAsia.

We can query whether Jerusalem and Mecca were the migrants out of Ife and these customs were exported from Ife as point of origin. There is nothing wrong with this reverse line of thought and in which case the vindication will be that such an after-thought is possible because the first recorders of literature were the voice of history and the shapers of knowledge, hence Yoruba did not win the premier position due to its lag in recording human history.

Bro plz stop changing the pronunciation and making it all sound "Yoruba". Its highly irritating and I have to keep correcting you.

There is no such thing as "sigidi". are you referring to "Lasgidi" by chance

In Arabic, idols are called "Asnam" ( the object of worship you are referring to).


The worship of the calf has nothing to do with Hinduism.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT PAGAN RELIGIONS ARE INTERCONNECTED

The Hindus worship the calf because the Aryans (ancestors of the Brahmins and Kshatriya castes), were nomadic cattleherders of Aryan stock.

This has nothing to do with the Semitic Jews who are another people/race altogether.

Now there was a reformist movement in the Later Vedic Age, which probably led to cow worship.

Cow was the main source of wealth. By putting an end to animal sacrifice and non-vegetarianism (only plant sacrifice and other forms of sacrifice were allowed), the HIndus found a way no only to be moral with animals, but also to save their wealth, i.e., COWS.

the cow is also seen as a mother, because it is unusual that a mammal depends on another mammal for milk. The cow provides milk like a mother basically. therefore it is worshipped as a symbol of motherhood, and of the Aryan race.


THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUBAL!!!!

The Arabs were not so poor in pronunciation like you. They pronounced their God as "HUBAL" .

When Abu Sufyan invoked the God, he said "Show your Superiority O Hubal! "

Maybe your "Juba", originated form South Sudan's capital "JUBA".

There is no such thing as altar. This is not a christian church.

There were 360 idols to fit into the Ka'abah. Basically the whole Ka'abah would be an altar. it doesnt make sense.


jews have nothing to do with the Pagan Arabs. stop bringing Judaism in between. they are a different people altogether.

It is 360 Gods in the Ka abah, not 401. stop trying to relate unrelated figures.

Uhm-uhnn, meta fun metaphisical. Nobody can shake your resolve. You are prince indeed. while i dont buy all your argent as you often bite more than you can shew, yet i love your undying spirit. Your stories are far fetched yes, but your rivals don't have what you have: a benefit of the doubt. They were blinded by their bias that has become a pride or problem. Nobody has right but the right to do what is right. You are a great spirit, i love your prose. Kudos, omo erin j'ogun ola.

PAGAN 9JA:



bullsh.it. (no offence intended).

Salat/Salah is compulsory prayer. It is done 5 times a day.

Salah is the formal prayer. its verb will be "Yusalli" ( to pray).



Duah is an invocation . it is a personal prayer and does not involve the islamic formal ritualised style and recitation of Surahs in Arabic.


It can be done anytime, anywhere, anyhow.



Salute (the physical action) is derived from medival times when knights used to raise the visor of thier helmet before going into combat, while facing the opponent, as a sign of acknowledgement.

The "word" Salute has latin roots.

You have sold the idea, through numerous posts, that you are an expert or subject matter guru on Arabian history and their pagan roots, and this only why Im asking you these questions to unravel and demistify what many people, out of bias, do not want to touch.

This is opportunity to prove what youve always asserted authority on as you are frequently quick to tell people to "shut up" on these subjects.

Duah - prayer
Salat - peace

Duah is the supplication and entreaties to God.
Salat is the ritual of finding peace within self and stems from salam.

The individual's self ego is his enemy. He has to tame it with humility. Salat is the antidote to the ego. The ritual of the antidote is the various positions you observe Muslims using in prayer. This is done repeatedly to keep ego in check so it does not run wild and end the individual in trouble..and the person can thus have peace in them and able to radiate and relate in peace (not ego) with others.

Each of the positiin itself mean something and i already tied their uniqueness (kneeling and bowing) to my subject, Yoruba.


Etymology of salute as a word is for linguist. Im not a linguist. Again, you are pagan, you preach paganism around here and get in people face when they hold a different view from you. Pagan should be giving us the land usage and application of salute, not the linguist usage.

I just gave you a thorough dissassembly of salat and application. Give us one for salute.

What is meaning of salute to a soldier or the knight you illustrated above?

ladionline: Uhm-uhnn, meta fun metaphisical. Nobody can shake your resolve. You are prince indeed. while i dont buy all your argent as you often bite more than you can shew, yet i love your undying spirit. Your stories are far fetched yes, but your rivals don't have what you have: a benefit of the doubt. They were blinded by their bias that has become a pride or problem. Nobody has right but the right to do what is right. You are a great spirit, i love your prose. Kudos, omo erin j'ogun ola.

Lmao!

Oduduwa a gbe wa o!

Thanks my brother. Omo Erin is totem for royal, I come from line of warriors - Omo Agbo!

MetaPhysical:

You have sold the idea, through numerous posts, that you are an expert or subject matter guru on Arabian history and their pagan roots, and this only why Im asking you these questions to unravel and demistify what many people, out of bias, do not want to touch.

This is opportunity to prove what youve always asserted authority on as you are frequently quick to tell people to "shut up" on these subjects.

Duah - prayer
Salat - peace

Duah is the supplication and entreaties to God.
Salat is the ritual of finding peace within self and stems from salam.

The individual's self ego is his enemy. He has to tame it with humility. Salat is the antidote to the ego. The ritual of the antidote is the various positions you observe Muslims using in prayer. This is done repeatedly to keep ego in check so it does not run wild and end the individual in trouble..and the person can thus have peace in them and able to radiate and relate in peace (not ego) with others.

Each of the positiin itself mean something and i already tied their uniqueness (kneeling and bowing) to my subject, Yoruba.


Etymology of salute as a word is for linguist. Im not a linguist. Again, you are pagan, you preach paganism around here and get in people face when they hold a different view from you. Pagan should be giving us the land usage and application of salute, not the linguist usage.

I just gave you a thorough dissassembly of salat and application. Give us one for salute.

What is meaning of salute to a soldier or the knight you illustrated above?

Thank you for your kind acknowledgement.

now listen to me. I can speak Arabic.


SALAT IS NOT DERIVED FROM SALAAM.

They are different.

Kelb means dog.

Kalb means heart.

so will you say dog is derived from heart?

In Arabic, even the slightest difference in pronunciation can make a BIG difference.


I rest my case.

The meaning of Salute to the Soldier would be to acknowledge the oponent before the battle. in those days they used to fight with maces. so the knights would face each other and then shut their visor before charging at each other on horseback.

PAGAN 9JA:



Bro plz stop changing the pronunciation and making it all sound "Yoruba". Its highly irritating and I have to keep correcting you.

There is no such thing as "sigidi". are you referring to "Lasgidi" by chance

In Arabic, idols are called "Asnam" ( the object of worship you are referring to).


The worship of the calf has nothing to do with Hinduism.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT PAGAN RELIGIONS ARE INTERCONNECTED

The Hindus worship the calf because the Aryans (ancestors of the Brahmins and Kshatriya castes), were nomadic cattleherders of Aryan stock.

This has nothing to do with the Semitic Jews who are another people/race altogether.

Now there was a reformist movement in the Later Vedic Age, which probably led to cow worship.

Cow was the main source of wealth. By putting an end to animal sacrifice and non-vegetarianism (only plant sacrifice and other forms of sacrifice were allowed), the HIndus found a way no only to be moral with animals, but also to save their wealth, i.e., COWS.

the cow is also seen as a mother, because it is unusual that a mammal depends on another mammal for milk. The cow provides milk like a mother basically. therefore it is worshipped as a symbol of motherhood, and of the Aryan race.


THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUBAL!!!!

The Arabs were not so poor in pronunciation like you. They pronounced their God as "HUBAL" .

When Abu Sufyan invoked the God, he said "Show your Superiority O Hubal! "

Maybe your "Juba", originated form South Sudan's capital "JUBA".

There is no such thing as altar. This is not a christian church.

There were 360 idols to fit into the Ka'abah. Basically the whole Ka'abah would be an altar. it doesnt make sense.


jews have nothing to do with the Pagan Arabs. stop bringing Judaism in between. they are a different people altogether.

It is 360 Gods in the Ka abah, not 401. stop trying to relate unrelated figures.

Reduce hubal to its roots and do same for jubal. Lets see what you come up with.

If your argument is true, then french fries in America and potatoe chips in England are not the same thing since they are called different names. In fact neighborhood and neighbourhood are not the same thing since one is missing the u. This will also apply to labor and labour, different spelling, forget the meaning..they are different.

Give a break down of Asnam and apply its sense in the Arabian culture.
You lack understanding of Arabic grammar. You have used people's lack of exposure and knowledge in Arabic language and culture to perpetrate false authority. Im here to let people know you are ignorant on what you claim to know..if google and wiki close shop your false authority on Arabian knowledge will pooofh!!

MetaPhysical:

Reduce hubal to its roots and do same for jubal. Lets see what you come up with.

If your argument is true, then french fries in America and potatoe chips in England are not the same thing since they are called different names. In fact neighborhood and neighbourhood are not the same thing since one is missing the u. This will also apply to labor and labour, different spelling, forget the meaning..they are different.

Give a break down of Asnam and apply its sense in the Arabian culture.
You lack understanding of Arabic grammar. You have used people's lack of exposure and knowledge in Arabic language and culture to perpetrate false authority. Im here to let people know you are ignorant on what you claim to know..if google and wiki close shop your false authority on Arabian knowledge will pooofh!!

are you a troll?

IM thoroughly annoyed right now.

I have a real life you know?

MetaPhysical:

Lmao!

Oduduwa a gbe wa o!

Thanks my brother. Omo Erin is totem for royal, I come from line of warriors - Omo Agbo!

If you are Awori, then your history is conected to either owa or Agbodre omo agbo dere further conects you to the memorial of the egun in Yoruba, as in isheri olofin, or the boa constrictor.

PAGAN 9JA:



Thank you for your kind acknowledgement.

now listen to me. I can speak Arabic.


SALAT IS NOT DERIVED FROM SALAAM.

They are different.

Kelb means dog.

Kalb means heart.

so will you say dog is derived from heart?

In Arabic, even the slightest difference in pronunciation can make a BIG difference.


I rest my case.

The meaning of Salute to the Soldier would be to acknowledge the oponent before the battle. in those days they used to fight with maces. so the knights would face each other and then shut their visor before charging at each other on horseback.

Dude, stop using google to search for meanings to post. I dont need your meanings..bring out their applications. We are talking about culture, culture is all about mundane living and realities. Particularly on ancient practices!

What is kalb to the individual? Stop throwing words around.

Kalb and Qiblah are connected. Qiblah is where Mecca is and Muhammed to muslims to face. There is a ritual linking the two.

As pagan, these applications is what i want to hear you share..it'd be different if you were a linguist, but you are not.

What is kalb? Give us a pagan view or a pre-Islam tour of Kalb.

ladionline: If you are Awori, then your history is conected to either owa or Agbodre omo agbo dere further conects you to the memorial of the egun in Yoruba, as in isheri olofin, or the boa constrictor.

Who is this lol. You know too much my brother, are you Awori?

On my maternal side the boa is sacred, i wont say more than that. Now, no more questions.

Katsumoto: @ Terra Cotta

I believe Oranyan (Oranmiyan in Benin) was one person and he sired the kings at Oyo and Benin. The reference to a woman (Oduduwa) in Ketu might have been to Okanbi's daughter who married the first Alaketu; since the original Alaketu was a son-in-law. I don't have any reason to doubt Oduduwa's grandchildren moving to other parts of the SW to start new kingdoms. Afterall, Oranyan went to Benin, Niger, etc. If Oranyan was just a title, then who sired Ajaka and Sango?

Fair enough. Oranyan and Oranmiyan are both Yoruba; the Benin version is Omonoyan, I believe. The feminine aspect of Oduduwa is not just in Ketu (although it's more prominent there). Your point about some confusion between Odudua and his daughter is possible, although that wouldn't explain why there are references to a female Odudua elsewhere. My understanding is that both male and female versions refer to a mythical personality and not a real person. There's a similar case with the deity Olokun, who is female in Ife but unquestionably male in Benin.

You ask who sired Ajaka and Sango and again, my suggestion to you is that you compare these traditions to other well-known examples in world mythology. To take a leaf from the rampant speculation in this thread, where did Adam and Eve come from in Judeo-Christian mythology? Who was the Scorpion King's father in ancient Egypt, or Odysseus in ancient Greece? Oduduwa was said to be present at the creation of humanity at Ife; competing myths that depict him as a real person aren't necessarily more realistic.

In all of my submissions, including my first post in response to you, I separated what I believed to be mythological/cosmogonic history from what I believe to be actual history. If you label most history as mythological, where (date) do you believe the cultural history started?

That's a completely fair question, but it's not one that can be answered with any certainty by history. Archaeologists can tell you that there's proof of occupation of Ife by 350 BC (although this early date has been disputed) and the clear emergence of a politically advanced society by about 800-900 AD (when we start seeing the emergence of potsherd pavements and other notable political/religious architecture). The peak of Ife's art seems to be around 1300 AD, when the most famous of the brass and terracotta heads appear to have been made. Those are the most certain dates we can point to right now if we want to discuss established facts. The rest we wil have to treat carefully as oral traditions that we can verify as truth (Ife was a center of political development and manufacturing of prestige goods like beads, brass art etc) or classify as myth (Ife was the center of the world's creation). I don't have anything against the idea that there was a warrior king named Oduduwa, but there are several reasons to doubt his historical existence so I prefer to classify it amongst the myths.

Oduduwa was female in traditional Ifa religion and male in Yoruba mythology. In that myth, Oduduwa climbed down a chain. There are elements of facts in mythology but it is just usually exaggerated and embellished by offsprings of the legends. Sango was an Alaafin who was defied after his death and became a god. Did his wives really turn into rivers? No but legend made it so. The same with the Oduduwa/Obatala rivalry and feud.

I don't take it for granted that Sango was a historic personality either (breathing fire and so on as he did) so it doesn't surprise me that his wives turned into rivers. Before the nineteenth century, there were few professional historians in our region of the world--there were bards, royal storytellers and the like. Their job wasn't to maintain an accurate written record of the past; they were retained to chronicle the glorious ancestry of noble families. While they would undoubtedly have to base this on historical events, they would naturally be poets and embellishers as well. As we've seen from Sultan Bello's example, even written records were influenced by religious and political concerns so we can't take them at face value.

Interesting but we have to agree to disagree.

Not a problem. When you have a moment (and if you haven't already), the first two chapters of Robert Smith's 'Kingdoms of the Yoruba' include summaries of Prof. Obayemi's archeological work and theories on Yoruba antiquity: http://books.google.com/books?id=ric6OhxbCS0C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=ade+obayemi+yoruba&source=bl&ots=tacfbue9Qp&sig=UJvKt5ntV4B-jGYg3JSpWHa4KjU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YDmSUsvOF5SisQSo-4HoBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ade%20obayemi%20yoruba&f=false

I am thoroughly disappointed that a practicing Pagan like PAGAN9JA will refuse to acknowledge the spread of religious cults with similar themes across the world in ancient times. Even modern research have shown that the Babylonian, Sumerian, Akkadian and the Kemetic cults copied one another even at their individual time-lines of resurgence. I won't go to and fro with you on this issue any further because it appears you believe you know everything. Neither will I tell you who or what I am. I am a proper Yoruba; born, bred and buttered in the Yoruba culture. I leave you to your own assumptions and I'll stick to mine. Your opinion(s) on my discoveries are very irrelevant as long as you aren't Yoruba. Thank You!

One other small comparison to make--the Eredo around Ijebu-Ode dates from around 1000 AD and is probably the work of a well-developed political system. If you were to ask in Ijebu today about the origins of this monument and the builder, you would probably hear about Bilikisu Sungbo/the Queen of Sheba and so on. We know that story is incompatible with hard archaeological evidence and is probably influenced by the growth of Islam in the 19th century. Nevertheless, it's clear that there was an organized and likely wealthy Yoruba polity in the region by then. There is little reason to believe that the language or cultural traditions of the people who built the Eredo have changed radically over those thousand years.

Ijebu myths rarely reference Oduduwa, and while some people believe that has something to do with origins in Waddai or other unlikely speculations, it's equally probably that colonial missionaries were barred from Ijebuland until nearly the end of the 19th century and the Ijebu hadn't heard of these Oduduwa myths of origin which had become widely-accepted elsewhere. Instead of Oduduwa, we have myths about Obanta and other uncertain figures.

MetaPhysical:

Dude, stop using google to search for meanings to post. I dont need your meanings..bring out their applications. We are talking about culture, culture is all about mundane living and realities. Particularly on ancient practices!

What is kalb to the individual? Stop throwing words around.

Kalb and Qiblah are connected. Qiblah is where Mecca is and Muhammed to muslims to face. There is a ritual linking the two.

As pagan, these applications is what i want to hear you share..it'd be different if you were a linguist, but you are not.

What is kalb? Give us a pagan view or a pre-Islam tour of Kalb.

ID.IOT! ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

kalb means HEART!

It was just an example!

It has nothing to do with Qiblah or pre-islam or whatever.

Tony Spike: I am thoroughly disappointed that a practicing Pagan like PAGAN9JA will refuse to acknowledge the spread of religious cults with similar themes across the world in ancient times. Even modern research have shown that the Babylonian, Sumerian, Akkadian and the Kemetic cults copied one another even at their individual time-lines of resurgence. I won't go to and fro with you on this issue any further because it appears you believe you know everything. Neither will I tell you who or what I am. I am a proper Yoruba; born, bred and buttered in the Yoruba culture. I leave you to your own assumptions and I'll stick to mine. Your opinion(s) on my discoveries are very irrelevant as long as you aren't Yoruba. Thank You!

Thats the problem with you non-Pagans. you keep lieing all the time about us and speaking on our behalf.

They are not copied. They are similar by default. you will find similarities even between native american and African religions. It is by default. It is natural. it is not copied.


Please next time dont take up this issue with me. i find it highly irritating.