@Seun

Seun:

So God created war, earthquakes, the Asian Tsunami as 'checks and balances' against the innocent men, women, children and babies that have died horrible deaths or been maimed for life through them?  Wouldn't an all-knowing God have been able to provide 'checks and balances' in a more humane manner?

And what do you mean by "checks and balances" anyway?  Couldn't a perfect God have created perfection with no need for any evil 'checks and balances'?  If he need evil 'checks and balances', then he's not all-powerful.  if he didn't really need evil but chose to create it, then he's actually being wicked.  Assuming he exists.

Seun, the whole thing explained is that God created both good and Evil, to put us to trial. Accoring to Islam, you cannot be admitted into paradise without proving to God that you deserve it. So, God is all Powerful, but has given us free will. But there will be no free will if there is no evil. So the ultimate purpose for creating evil is to test His creatures to determine who to punish and who to reward. Understood?

If God is perfect, then the works of his hands will be perfect too.

If he knows all things, then he knows those who will turn out good and the bad ones also.

Thus there's no need for any "trial". Unless God enjoys seeing people suffering, it just won't happen.

Seun:

If God is perfect, then the works of his hands will be perfect too.

If he knows all things, then he knows those who will turn out good and the bad ones also.

Thus there's no need for any "trial". Unless God enjoys seeing people suffering, it just won't happen.

If there's a God, I don't think he enjoys seeing people suffer. If you want to get into heaven, you have to prove that you're worthy of that. It's not free you know.

Why is heaven not free? If you had unlimited resources and power, would you charge people to enter a city that you can create a million times over, and then throw them into everlasting fire if they can't pay for it? If you did that, I will see you as an evil person. Apart from heaven not being free, why does hell have to be a place of torture anyway?

Hell is for those who didn't live according to the bible. You can't enter heaven as a sinner. A murderer who hasn't repented can't enter heaven, but can go to hell.
God didn't create evil either. He gave man the power to do what he wants and man chose to create evil. You do know that earthquakes are being caused by man's way of living.

If you live right, according to the bible, I don't see why you won't go to heaven.

Note: I'm Agnostic, I'm just putting myself into a Christian's shoes.

retro:

If there's a God, I don't think he enjoys seeing people suffer. If you want to get into heaven, you have to prove that you're worthy of that. It's not free you know.

Dear, heaven is free. The price was paid for by the Precious Blood of the Lamb.

Darkchild:

Near - death? What Bull. U die only Once. PLEASE!!!

And after you die "once" what next awaits you? 72 virgins? Rivers of beer? Judgment and certain destruction for your unbelief?
It is still not too late to repent.

OlaAjia:

@SeunSeun, the whole thing explained is that God created both good and Evil, to put us to trial. Accoring to Islam, you cannot be admitted into paradise without proving to God that you deserve it. So, God is all Powerful, but has given us free will. But there will be no free will if there is no evil. So the ultimate purpose for creating evil is to test His creatures to determine who to punish and who to reward. Understood?

How "god" can give you "freewill" and yet demand death for those who convert to other religions from Islam, advocate the killing of "infidels" and actively encourage wanton destruction in the "name of god" really beats me.
Where in the quran is freewill mentioned or alluded to?
Why are muslims so quick to "import" christian doctrines to paint over their own inadequacies?

Retro

By saying man created evil you are in effect saying man has the power to create. I refute this statement in it's entirety. Man cannot create but can modify. God created Evil. Remember, the devil fell into evil himself before man. It was God who created the Devil and Evil, and the sole purpose is to test man and Jinn to determine if he is truly worthy of God's paradise.

ajia23:

Retro

By saying man created evil you are in effect saying man has the power to create. I refute this statement in it's entirety. Man cannot create but can modify. God created Evil. Remember, the devil fell into evil himself before man. It was God who created the Devil and Evil, and the sole purpose is to test man and Jinn to determine if he is truly worthy of God's paradise.

If man did not have the power to create then all the condom factories would go out of business!

Reverend:

If man did not have the power to create then all the condom factories would go out of business!

Hahaha!

ajia23:

Retro

By saying man created evil you are in effect saying man has the power to create. I refute this statement in it's entirety. Man cannot create but can modify. God created Evil. Remember, the devil fell into evil himself before man. It was God who created the Devil and Evil, and the sole purpose is to test man and Jinn to determine if he is truly worthy of God's paradise.

God didn't create the devil! He created Lucifer who was an angel. Lucifer decided to turn evil. There's a difference.

word!! Retro!

God didn't create the devil! He created Lucifer who was an angel. Lucifer decided to turn evil.

- If God is all-powerful, his angels wouldn't turn evil unless he wants them to.

- If God is just, then even if an angel turns evil (which is impossible, see above) he would lock up tha angel immediately instead of allowing that angel to tempt billions of innocent people to turn evil.

- If God is all-knowing, then he knew that Lucifer was going to turn evil. Yet he still created him? That's evil!

Hell is for those who didn't live according to the bible.

Can you explain how it's fair for your ancestors who never came accross the bible to face everlasting torment?

You do know that earthquakes are being caused by man's way of living.

Thisa is an example of the pseudo-science that pastors spew in their messages. Most earthquakes are natural. My question is this: why does God allow natural disasters if he's not evil and has the power to stop them?

retro: I'm agnostic

You are what you believe, my sister.

---
Do you remember the September 9-11 event? What if there was someone who could have easily stopped the event from happening, but refused to do so and allowed thousands of people to perish in a violent manner? What if the person said "it's not my business"? Wouldn't you agree that such a person is evil? That person is God, if he exists.

Seun:

- If God is all-powerful, his angels wouldn't turn evil unless he wants them to.

- If God is just, then even if an angel turns evil (which is impossible, see above) he would lock up tha angel immediately instead of allowing that angel to tempt billions of innocent people to turn evil.

- If God is all-knowing, then he knew that Lucifer was going to turn evil. Yet he still created him? That's evil!

1 You are mixing things up here. 'God' is powerful but he isn't a controlling God. He gave instructions on how to live but you decide if you take them or not.

2 Why would he lock up the angels? Because they chose not to be what God created them to be? Like I stated in point 1, he isn't a controlling God. You can live the way you want but you have to be prepared for what comes afterwards (the consequences).

3 God gave Lucifer a chance. The way things ended up shouldn't be questionned. God knows why he created Lucifer.

Can you explain how it's fair for your ancestors who never came accross the bible to face everlasting torment?

That is a different issue. They never came accross the bible so I don't think they'lld be punished for that. But if you've heard of the bible and choose not to live your life according to it, that's when you go to hell.

Thisa is an example of the pseudo-science that pastors spew in their messages. Most earthquakes are natural. My question is this: why does God allow natural disasters if he's not evil and has the power to stop them?

Earthquakes would've been less if men weren't so careless. We can still prevent them from happening. What do you want? A world with no pain, no suffering? A perfect world? Come on, be realistic here. So you want God to say: 'Hmm, there's going to be an earthquake in Indonesia, Angel Simon, press the 'stop Earthquake button' quickly!'? Ha!

You are what you believe, my sister.

Just to clarify things here, I'm an Agnostic, I don't believe in most of the things I'm saying but I'm putting myself in a Christian's shoes. Some of your questions are logical.

Do you remember the September 9-11 event? What if there was someone who could have easily stopped the event from happening, but refused to do so and allowed thousands of people to perish in a violent manner? What if the person said "it's not my business"? Wouldn't you agree that such a person is evil? That person is God, if he exists.

Like I said, God created man, man decided to turn evil. If the person didn't say anything because he/she wanted that to happen, that's evil BUT God didn't create the person to be evil. He/She chose to be evil.

'God' is powerful but he isn't a controlling God. He gave instructions on how to live but you decide if you take them or not.

Imagine a parent that tells her baby "don't jump off the balcony" and then allows the baby to jump of and die. Would she be able to defend herself by saying "I am not a controlling parent"? No, she's irresponsible!

You can live the way you want but you have to be prepared for what comes afterwards (the consequences).

Can you tell me why never-ending fire is a just consequence for not believing the bible's unprovable claims?

God gave Lucifer a chance. The way things ended up shouldn't be questioned. God knows why he created Lucifer.

Why shouldn't the way things ended up be questioned? Is it because you have no answers?

Earthquakes would've been less if men weren't so careless.

This is not true, but supposing it is, what about those "few" earthquakes that will still happen? What about volcanic eruptions? What about floods and landslides? What about malaria? Isn't that sufficient reason to question the existence of a just, all-powerful God?

[My ancestors] never came accross the bible so I don't think they'lld be punished for that.

This is wrong. From what chapter and verse in the bible did you get this idea?

Like I said, God created man, man decided to turn evil. If the person didn't say anything because he/she wanted that to happen, that's evil BUT God didn't create the person to be evil. He/She chose to be evil.

God (supposing he exists) created man, knowing fully well that he will turn evil, then he throws man into never-ending torment for turning evil as expected. That makes no sense.

This is like a woman that adopts a lion's cub knowing that it's going to eat her children when it grows up, then when the lion finally eats her children, she says "what an evil lion! I'm gonna have to take revenge by chopping off its limbs and gouging out it's eyes. I'm gonna torture it to death for eating my children". Wouldn't you question that mother's sanity? Wouldn't you blame her for the death of her children, because she knew what would happen?

Seun:

Imagine a parent that tells her baby "don't jump off the balcony" and then allows the baby to jump of and die. Would she be able to defend herself by saying "I am not a controlling parent"? No, she's irresponsible!

Are we blaming God for our sins? A baby cannot think for himself, THAT is different. God gave man the ability to think for himself, to make decisions which he DID. How is that irresponsible? Man has got a mind of his own.

Can you tell me why never-ending fire is a just consequence for not believing the bible's unprovable claims?

Why is cancer the consequence of smoking?

Why shouldn't the way things ended up be questioned? Is it because you have no answers?

God's purpose for Christians or the formation of the earth shouldn't be questioned at all. Nobody's got the real answers, we are all assuming. God gave Lucifer a mind of his own, Lucifer decided to turn evil, that's the way things ended up. What don't you understand?

This is not true, but supposing it is, what about those "few" earthquakes that will still happen? What about volcanic eruptions? What about floods and landslides? What about malaria? Isn't that sufficient reason to question the existence of a just, all-powerful God?

I study Human Science at school. I'm not saying that if man's more careful of his environment, Earthquakes will be gone, I'm saying that they'll be less. Same goes for floods. As for diseases, apparently in the Bible (I asked my mother), God said something about incurable diseases: If man doesn't repent from his sins, they'll suffer this. According to somewhere in the bible, sicknesses are due to man's actions.

This is wrong. From what chapter and verse in the bible did you get this idea?

How is it wrong? I didn't get it from the Bible (I don't read the bible). I'm a neutral person trying to understand Christianity.

God (supposing he exists) created man, knowing fully well that he will turn evil, then he throws man into never-ending torment for turning evil as expected. That makes no sense.

God gave man a mind of his own (I'm tired of repeating myself), you CHOOSE to be evil. What do you expect? A man cheats on his wife, another man murders someone and you expect them to go to heaven? If they don't repent, hello hell!

This is like a woman that adopts a lion's cub knowing that it's going to eat her children when it grows up, then when the lion finally eats her children, she says "what an evil lion! I'm going to have to take revenge by chopping off its limbs and gouging out it's eyes. I'm going to torture it to death for eating my children". Wouldn't you question that mother's sanity? Wouldn't you blame her for the death of her children, because she knew what would happen?

Lions are dangerous. A woman who adopts a lion is insane (in my opinion). God did not send evil to man. Man knowingly adopted evil himself. Man is to blame for the consequences.

Seun:

- If God is all-knowing, then he knew that Lucifer was going to turn evil. Yet he still created him? That's evil!

For me this remains the most fundamental question in the world.Why did God create Lucifer?Knowing well in advance the Lucifer/Satan would become arogant,disobedient,evil,and be his rival.Is Satan responsible for his actions?

mrmayor:

For me this remains the most fundamental question in the world.Why did God create Lucifer?Knowing well in advance the Lucifer/Satan would become arogant,disobedient,evil,and be his rival.Is Satan responsible for his actions?

I guess an imaginary being creating another imaginary being to explain the flaws of the first imaginary being is a little less than fundamental.

Nferyn,

nferyn:

I guess an imaginary being creating another imaginary being to explain the flaws of the first imaginary being is a little less than fundamental.

My head hurts!.Religion has thrived on the fact that people do not ask questions about the origin of sin.Most Christians and Muslims would have you believe that the origin of sin is the garden of Eden.

Religious books would say that Adam and Eve sinned against God so the reason for Evil in the world.How can humans be responsible for their actions if they are destined to be the way they turn out to be.
Why is Satan bad if as when he was created God knew he was bad?

mrmayor:

Nferyn,

nferyn link=topic=15166.msg499925#msg499925 date=1153246303:

I guess an imaginary being creating another imaginary being to explain the flaws of the first imaginary being is a little less than fundamental.

My head hurts!.Religion has thrived on the fact that people do not ask questions about the origin of sin.Most Christians and Muslims would have you believe that the origin of sin is the garden of Eden.

LOL There are just too many unknowns to consider it anywhere near an adequate answer to the fundamental question of the orgin of evil. That religious explanation violates Ockham's Razor (a monk nonetheless) on too many counts to even be considered an explanation. Even if the story of the garden of Eden were magically true, it still doesn't explain the true origins of evil, as you still have the prime mover

mrmayor:

Religious books would say that Adam and Eve sinned against God so the reason for Evil in the world.How can humans be responsible for their actions if they are destined to be the way they turn out to be.

Following the omni-nature of God, only God is ultimately responsible, as it is his wish for things to turn out as they are. Even God having wishes violates his omni-character. The omni-God just cannot exist.

mrmayor:

Why is Satan bad if as when he was created God knew he was bad?

God is omniscient, thus He knew Satan would be / become bad
God is omnipotent, thus he had the power to prevent Satan being bad
God is omnibenevolent, thus he cannot wish for evil to exist
Evil exists, this means that God cannot be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent at the same time.
Either God is limited or he does not exist.

Brilliant (of course, logical) analysis there, nferyn!  But I'm sure there are answers to these probing thoughts.  I do not have them though.


@retro: are you sure you're not a Christian? You explain things even better than some of we Christians here.

LOrd have mercy.

goodguy:

@retro: are you sure you're not a Christian? You explain things even better than some of we Christians here.

Unfortunately, I'm not. I ask myself the same questions Nferyn is asking. I just put myself in your shoes sometimes. I want to understand Christianity and maybe this is the best way for me.

goodguy:

Brilliant (of course, logical) analysis there, nferyn! But I'm sure there are answers to these probing thoughts. I do not have them though.

Usually the answers boils down to some variation of "the nature of God is unknowable and human concepts don't apply to Him". That's all fine, but if that is the case, then there is absolutely nothing to say about God and His existence is inconsequential to us here on earth.

Retro

Thank you for giving me the biblical perspective. Islam however adopts a different approach. God created Satan as a Jinn-something made from fire, unlike the angels who were made from light. Jinns have free will like humans, angels do not possess free will. God knew Satan was going to be arrogant, but he still created him, and he asked him to bow to Adam (ASW) who was made from clay. Statn refused. The God asked him to leave heaven. Now, all the while Adam (ASW) was in pardise, but before his creation, God had told the angels that He was going to create a vicegerent on earth. So, he gave Adam (ASW) a free will to either choose to obey him and stay away from that beleguered fruit, or obey the devil and eat the fruit. He chose the latter, and Adam (ASW) was sent to earth thus fulfilling God's initial design of man living on earth. He gave Adam (ASW) a free will to choose where he was going to stay, but He knew Adam was going to make that fatal mistake, however, He did not cause Adam(ASW) to make the mistake. So, you see the difference between His knowledge, and His action. Man was solely responsible for his action. God helps a man that tries to help himself but fails, but God is not an over generous grace or mercy giver that extends the olive branch even to His eneies. That is the God-concept in Islam. It is quite different from that of christianity.

ajia23:

God helps a man that tries to help himself but fails, but God is not an over generous grace or mercy giver that extends the olive branch even to His eneies. That is the God-concept in Islam. It is quite different from that of christianity.

So God is not omnibenevolent in Islam and he wants evil to be in the world. It's an even less appealing concept than Christianity.

nferyn:

So God is not omnibenevolent in Islam and he wants evil to be in the world. It's an even less appealing concept than Christianity.

Laughing my bleeping black a*s out. Gosh, if you weren't married . . .

Nferyn
You probably got my message wrong. God helps a man who tries to help himself, but does not suceed in doing that-meaning the man has to make an effort, then he finds out that he wansn't successful, God steps in because he sees his intentions. But God does not tell his enemies, I will send you to heaven, no, he tells them, you will burn in hell so long as you persist in your rebellion. He however, out of His mercy grant those who believe in Him Paradise inspite of their shortcomings. Now that is the Islamic concept of Grace. It doesn't have to be more appealing than christianity however, it is just the way it is in Islam.
Yes, God wants evil to exist so that man may prove that he is really worthy of whatever destination he ends up in, in the Hereafter.

Ajia23,

What is the point of creating something that you already know it will never obey you?If I set my cell phone alarm to wake me at 4am and the same time set it on silence,whats the point of breaking the phone after waking up late?
Religious people have never answer the question why did God  create something he knew would never work and turn round an punish it for not working after all God knew it will never work!

mrmayor:

Ajia23,

What is the point of creating something that you already know it will never obey you?If I set my cell phone alarm to wake me at 4am and the same time set it on silence,whats the point of breaking the phone after waking up late?
Religious people have never answer the question why did God create something he knew would never work and turn round an punish it for not working after all God knew it will never work!

That's the whole problem with the God-concept of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, it's so full of contradictions that only the willingly ignorant can believe in it.
You need conscious rationalisation to dismiss these contradictions

Seun:

_{Nferyn, for once you saved my ass instead of striving to disagree with me at all costs. Thanks.}

My pleasure. Why do you think I strive to disagree with you? There's no conscious effort involved, when I disagree with you it's because there's a genuine disagreement. You just have to admit that there's a lot in your opinions/approach that just screams disagreement

Seun:

_{Nferyn, for once you saved my ass instead of striving to disagree with me at all costs. Thanks.}

[offtopic] I'm sorry about my signature, but I really do want to be in Afeni's undies. Can I get my old location back? The one that says 'in Afeni's undies' . . . I've been crying. I really want to be there. [/offtopic]

Please don't ban me for this. Lmao.

Seun, your posts make me laugh. You question like a lost child.
Why not open your bible and ask it this questions so it will answer you , rather than dis-credit the creator and put yourself into un-necessary trouble.
Same goes for K2.(i know who u are)