shdemidemi:

If I may ask, what is the essence of grace, could it be to help us live holy lives or a gift unto salvation?

shdemidemi:

First- he didn't call Peter the rock on which the church will be built. The church is built on what Simon(the one that hears) heard.


The issue isn't how Jesus said it, where he said it or to whom it was said, but if he said it. He called them both devils does not mean they are actually the devil. God and God's plan is the only thing good, anything outside God is evil and the devil. We all have the devil in us, everytime we make statements or think outside God, we can as well be called devils.
2 cor 10
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The war we fight is the ability to suppress the force that propels our actions that are not within the confines of God's will. Only Jesus circumvented nature to come like a man but not as a man thus He didn't have the devil in him.

Ubenedictus: the son of perdition who fulfills scriptures is judas, the scripture he fulfils is ps 41:9

Bidam:
Secondly you are purely playing semantics here. Jesus said get behind me satan, he never called Peter the devil, he addressed the words of peter not peter himself.

Bidam:
Thirdly it is clear that the son of perdition was Judas. Satan can incarnate humans, it's a matter of choice of the willing vessels who yields to him. It starts with subtle suggestions by influencing the patterns of thinking of such individuals to full possession. Judas was completely and fully possessed by the devil to do what he had to do so scriptures will be fulfilled.

Bidam:
Fourtly after Jesus ascension no believer in Christ can be possessed by the devil, they can only be oppressed or influenced externally. Pls if there is any scripture to back up your erroneous assertion that believers have the devil in them, feel free to share with us.

Christians can only yield to their carnal nature by appealing to emotionalism and sensationalism in which case Peter was guilty of such. Atleast Paul addressed the corinthians as carnal and babes in CHRIST. He never called them the devil.

Bidam:
The Holy Spirit and the devil CANNOT coexist in one vessel, it's either you are hot or you are cold. No sitting on the fence here to be used by God at one time and satan at another time.

striktlymi:

The above still does not conclusively state that Judas is in Hell. The best we can do is assume! That assumption is the very reason I say no one knows for sure.

Simply put: Grace is the undeserved favour we get from God which helps us on our journey of faith, without which we cannot become God's children. In Baptism we achieve the rare privilege of being adoptive Children of God here on Earth.

This privilege is not enjoyed by everyone. In other words, some are more favoured than others. The question then arises: at what point does someone receives enough Grace?

Is it at the point of baptism? the hour of our death? after we pass on? or is it all through life and beyond? Irrespective of when God decides to shower us with his graces, one thing is clear: it is desirable to do the will of God both now and the hereafter.

In my opinion, God's grace would be sufficient at the point where we have the 'tools' needed to achieve the desired height of sanctity both now and beyond. Not every man is given these 'tools', hence the insufficiency of God's Grace.

Ubenedictus:

both.

shdemidemi:

Let's assume I agree with you that Jesus addressed Peter's word and not Peter. Could he not be addressing the thoughts of judas and not judas?

was judas possessed or influenced?

And what does carnality mean?

Jesus called man evil, have we suddenly lost our evil traits because we accept Christ?

Paul spoke as a minister of the gospel, he says -romans7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Jesus rescued and delivered us from sin and death whose root source is the devil but evil (devil) is still present within the flesh,

if you let him dominate you.

Every Christian has a new heart, the habitat of the Holy Spirit.The devil cannot dwell here,

he rest in the mind.

The battle between the Spirit and the devil to gain dominion over a Christian is in the mind.

Bidam: Flesh or sense ruled.

Bidam:
Yes we have lost the sin nature once we are in Christ. You are yet to show me where scriptures called believers the devil.

Bidam: This wasn't what you said initially, you said every believer have a devil inside of him. If you do i don't.
How would you if you are FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT 24/7. The spirit of the power of the air is only at work in children of disobedience not children of obedience.

Bidam: Ok. he doesn't rest in the minds of christians unless you allow him. he attacks the mind. The mind is the seat of intellect and we are to cast down every satanic strongholds that are hidden behind training, thinking and mental attitudes that oppose Jesus. Ofcourse the mind is not born again at new birth scripture encourages us the renew our minds and control our thought life. Every thought pattern is to be policed by the Holy Spirit. It is actually a life time event to feed our minds with God's word.

Ubenedictus: i think the key is how the passages are interpreted. The son of perdition and the one who chose to be lost, i see as clearly refering to eternal damnation. For me this is clear.


You interprete differently, thus for you it isn't clear.




hmmm...maybe i am misunderstanding your language.

I don't really know if there is ever a time in anyone life when he could be said to have received "enough grace". I usually think of grace in the continous sense.

What i believe is that each believer has been/is given given sufficent grace to attain eternal life, each sincere unbeliever is given sufficient grace unto salvation and each fallen christian sufficient grace unto repentance, (i believe the teaching is called "the universality of grace". If as scripture says God desires the salvation of all men, then it follows that he has provided sufficient grace for all men unto salvation.

Mans failure to resist sin is mans failure, judas failure to resist sin is his failure.

No body is excused from sin under the pretext of having "insufficient grace".

shdemidemi: anytime you operate from the realm of the flesh, that isn't God but the devil.

We did not lose the sin nature [/b]but we have been rescued from its effect thus it should have no domination over us. Our eyes, ears, hands are all parts of the sinful nature, nothing has changed. All these members still crave for sin even as we are Christians but can be subdued by a transformation from inside out.

24 O wretched man [b]that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

He did not say wretched man that I was... I am... Speaking of his present condition.

In that chapter Paul used 'I' for two different personalities- the outer man and the inward man/ the old man and the new man/the flesh and the spirit. It is left to the reader to decipher what man was been used.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was not rescued from his body of death (the old man), but was saved by the arrival of the new man. Mind here means heart, that is where Gods righteousness dwell in us. He admits that is flesh is still subject to the law of sin thus it will suffer corruption.

When I say a devil, I mean that tendency to go against God. Anything contrary to God is the devil, isn't it?

The heart of man is desperately wicked, none can comprehend it. Nothing changes even after one becomes a Christian and becomes heaven candidate.

Being a Christian is one step, understanding God and the mind of God as to think and act like He would is another step that comes only by studying the scriptures accurately.

striktlymi:
Like I mentioned before, it is very possible that he repented before he drew his last breadth

ayoku777:



Well, some people might argue with you that Judas was NEVER even saved

Look at this statement of Jesus about Judas:

John 6v70-71 -Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, AND ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL?

He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Notice, this statement was made by Jesus about a year before His crucifixion. So Judas had been A DEVIL all along. Coz Jesus did not say one of you WAS or SHALL BE a Devil! But IS A DEVIL.

So its arguable from here that He was NEVER saved.

Then even if he was saved and did lose his salvation, I don't think it would be for the reasons you gave up there -that he didn't forgive himself and he took his own life.

If Judas lost his salvation, It would be because he stopped believing Jesus is the Messiah. It was because Judas did not believe -or stopped believing that Jesus is the Messiah that he chose to betray Him.

John 6v64 -But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not; and who should betray Him.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and it can only be lost through unbelief.

Bidam: The point is Christians are not to be 'sense' ruled but Spirit ruled. Once a Christian walks in the Spirit he CANNOT fulfill the desires of the flesh. The flesh is not the devil don't mix it up. The devil is actually a spirit not a flesh.

How is that transformation achieved? The sin nature has been dealt with completely at the cross, God has inputed holiness into believers, it now depends on the believer to cleanse himself from all defilement of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. The mind is not the same as the heart. Paul was a pharisee of the pharisees and a purist of the law. He was describing the struggle within. He was encouraging believers to build up their inner man so that it won't walk the path of sin and that comes by prayer and study of the Word.
The bible NEVER describe the flesh as the devil that is your opinion. Paul calls it the carnal mind. I agree the flesh is violently opposed to God. It hates the Holy Spirit. It has been produced as a result of the work of satan but it is not a demon spirit. It is part of the purely human unregenerate nature. Another phrase it is called is the OLD MAN. Sorry the flesh is NOT the devil.
You contradict yourself here when you say the heart has not changed after the new birth. God doesn't put NEW WINE in OLD wine skins. You already admitted that Christians have a new heart so make up your mind here. The unregenerate man may have a wicked heart but not a believer.
The truth is you got your theology mixed up. When Christ was crucified on the cross, our old man, our carnal mind, our sinful nature was crucified with him and made quite totally dead. It powers and dominion and strength were broken, the only "WORK OUT" of the believer here until he meet Jesus Christ is to study and pray in the Spirit at all times.

shdemidemi: I agree



He isn't the son of perdition bro, he couldn't have been.

Son of perdition describe one who is unsaved hereafter (the devil). God created man to show his attribute of love and mercy, no man can sin beyond God's grace.

'where sin abounded, grace did much more abound'

striktlymi:
God does desire the salvation of ALL men...precisely the reason why Jesus asked his Apostles to take the Gospel to the ends of the Earth.

However, there are people who commits very serious sins today e.g suicide, without the knowledge that what they do is wrong. Matter of factly, some cultures hold suicide as very honourable.

Would we say that those people have sufficient grace to know that the act they commit is wrong? Surely, we cannot say that.
Though God will not hold a sin committed in ignorance against the individual but the fact that the individual is ignorant about the sin is evidence enough to show that, as regards that sin, the grace given was not sufficient.

In Judas' case one can argue that he may not have committed suicide with his full consent. Probably his grief blinded him to the realities of life i.e God is good and his Mercies abounds forever.

One cannot be said to have committed a grave sin if there is a shortfall in the individual's consent to that sin. Like I mentioned before, it is very possible that he repented before he drew his last breadth

In all, we truly can't tell if Judas is in Hell as we speak unless it is revealed when we face the hereafter.

shdemidemi:

If salvation is by God's grace, can we lose it?

Ubenedictus:
God isn't responsible for the lack of knowledge of sin. Infact it seem he has always guaranteed that we know we have sinned.

"they show that what the law requires is written in their hearts, while the conscience also bears witness..." rm 2:15

every one seem to have a conscience whether it is listened to, silence, ignored, influenced or excused is another story, but God has provided sufficiently for men to know when they sin. This is called conscience.

God considers ignorance in judgement, not because he hasn't provided avenue for knowledge sufficiently but because he has mercy on our weakness.

Ubenedictus:
Besides the jewish culture doesn't support suicide, judas knew exactly what he was doing.

Ubenedictus:
you mean in cases of grief or anger or emotion that sin loses value or becomes less sinful? Interesting

Ubenedictus:
it is possible, he repented, but if he did, the words of christ would have little meaning! It seems i'm repeating myself.

Ubenedictus:
I could very well argue that judas had the time to consider his decision and he did it anyway, but i'll let that point slide. If you say is suicide was a non grave sin because he probably didnt willingly end his own life, i doubt you could make the same arguement for his betrayal of Jesus. Instead of repenting of that he ended his life.

ayoku777:


That's a good point and very thoughtful too. But let's weigh those two statements of Christ.

If Judas still gets to sit on a throne in the kindgom of God and judge the twelve tribes in the millenial, is it still better for him not to have been born because he ended his earthly ministry shamefully?

So not being born and not existing at all is better than ending your earthly life shamefully, even though you still get to sit on a throne and judge and have authority in the age to come

I believe, what that promise to sit on thrones and judge proves is that "Pre-destination is not cast in iron", and "Pre-destination does not over-ride freewill or personal choice".
You still need to believe to the end to be saved. When Jesus told Peter to "Come" on the water, Peter walked on water. But when He stopped believing he fell. The word "Come" did not keep him walking independently of his choice to keep believing. You can't stop believing in Christ as the Messiah and expect the promise Christ made to you as a believer or His follower to still stand. Pre-destination is not cast in iron.

Jesus when praying to the Father in John 17v12:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: THOSE THAT THOU GAVEST ME I have kept, and NONE OF THEM IS LOST, BUT the son of perdition; that the scriptures might be fulfilled."

I believe Judas was the son of perdition in this passage, not the Devil, coz Jesus was talking about THOSE THAT THOU GAVEST ME. And He said none of them is lost BUT or EXCEPT. Jesus didn't lose the Devil.

The son of perdition here was someone among THOSE THAT THOU GAVEST ME
can we say Judas did not choose himself to be d child of perdition but that the scripture might be fulfilled. remember Pharaoh, God hardened his heart to hold the isrealites captive so that God's power can be revealed to them

Ubenedictus:

the picture Jesus paints of Judas, as the one "who chose to be lost", he who "it is better he was never born". Leave me with almost certainty that Judas actually was lost. He died with his sins intact.

OLAADEGBU: Was Judas Iscariot saved or did he lose his salvation?

Docjay487:

carm.org under salvation topics.

OLAADEGBU:

Yes, what is your take on the topic?

Docjay487:

He wasn't saved.
Sorry am bit cold to quote Bible references right now

striktlymi:

I do not agree with the bold particularly. If all avenues for sin recognition have been granted to everyone then there will be no room for ignorance. The fact that God puts the ignorance of people into consideration demonstrates that not all had/have the grace to know that some things are sinful.

So you say!



That's your understanding.



So many negative things were said about other characters in Sacred scriptures. Pharaoh readily comes to mind but that is no guarantee that those characters are already in Hell.

The fact that one can argue both ways is enough evidence to show that we are all unsure of the fate of Judas.

Ubenedictus: it is called divine mercy for a reason.



i don't think the description of pharaoh will rival that of judas.



the point isn't about how one can argue both ways, it is about no matter how one argue the same conclusion seem apparent. If Judas is excused for killing himself, he wouldn't be excused from his betrayal.

striktlymi:

What exactly made the betrayal of Peter any better than that of Judas? If Peter can be 'excused', why not Judas?

12345DKO:

We cannot question God because our God is in Heaven and He does as He pleases- Psalm 115 : 3 and He Himself said that I will have MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY... Romans 9 : 15.

OLAADEGBU:

I believe your position would depend on whether you believe that a believer can lose his salvation or not.

Docjay487: He wasn't saved.
Sorry am bit cold to quote Bible references right now