noetic2:

why is there a problem with my choice to believe these writings. . . .when u also willingly made ur choice to disbelieve this writings?

Well actually there is NO problem at all if you believe the lies and let it end there. . . .you use the lies as a justification to look down on others and as long as you continue to do that then you should always expect a push back. . . . . .

why is it not a problem to you that u CANNOT substantiate ur beliefs? u have no evidence to support ur claims and beliefs . . . .and u dare call writers of the bible "deluded" and "barbaric"?

You are my evidence that your god exist only in your deluded imaginations. . . . .I have said it so many times no god that truly exist will rely on an irrelevant entity like you to make his case for him at all. . . he will do it himself. . . .As for the bible writers its only people that are deluded that will write that the sun moves round the earth. . . if stoning disobedient children and human scarifice isn't barbarism then pls tell me what is. . . .   

ur delusion and ignorance is much more obvious. . . otherwise, how EXACTLY do u intend to substantiate ur beliefs?

How many times will you have to keep repeating this drivel? You are now sounding like a broken record. ,  .

please save ut fairy tales for fellow minded ignorant and delusive atheists. You were NEVER a christian. .  . u only attended church for ur pleasure and never sought after God with all your heart.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to seek after God with all ur heart and never get a response. . . .save ur lies and dogmatic lines for ur congregation of atheists

How do you know this? because your deluded mind tells you? I onced seeked the imaginary god with all my heart and never got anything. . . .My deconversion was personally a very painfulprovessto me but am VERY glad it happened. . . .The human brain is a very complex organ. . . . . What you claim is response is just your mind playing tricks on you. . . . .Didn't you once say that jesus appears to you in your dreams? . We all know that people always dream about what preocupies their minds most of the time. . . .Pls how did jesus look like and what language did he speak. . . Is he really a black man as NO2atheism says he is?. . . , 

God has actually done all of the above. . . .all u have to do is to pick up the bible and educate urself.

Where is your contact with your god telling you that he ordered any body to write the bible on his behalf?

Atheism is an intellectually lazy dogmatic approach at attaining mental irrationality. atheism is the only means of saying 1+1 = 12 . ,  while hiding under mathematical knowledge and still not proving how u came about the answer.
atheism is an irrational disease that bothers on the mind and brain.

Again your deluded opinion and claims are of NO importance here. . . . . .Its good to rant sometimes so I will allow you do that. . .  . . .

noetic2:

Depending on the circumstances involved. . . .all of the above are indeed miracles.

So getting a job is called a miracle? 

Miracle is a function of three things
a. divine intervention
b. ur belief system
c. universality.

I am yet to see any divine intervention when it comes to the healing of amputees. . . . can your god perform such a miracle?

Miracles happen all the time to everyone regardless of the religious beliefs of the recipient. You have not said anything to discredit the credibility of miracles. . . or have u?

Only because you are lying to yourself. . . didn't the bible say that those of you that believe in jesus will have the ability to preform magic(miracles)? Do you truly believe what the bible says if so how many blind people have you ever restored their sights like jesus promised you will be able to if only you believe in him? Do you believe in jesus and have faith as tiny as that of a mustard seed? If you do then let me know how many blind people you have been able to restore their sights. . . . That will sway me and make a a christain once again. . . .

ever heard of creationism?

Creationism is the thoughts and ideas of how bronze aged men thought the universe and the earth came about. . . .Its nothing more than a false and ridiculous hypothesis. . .

Mazaje na gan ka na ta pama da su .

All these long debates about god and his existence . If there truly is a god will people be asked to believe in his existence? When last were people told or asked to believe in the existence of the sun or even micro organisms that they can not see with the ordinary eyes? Most people simply believe in the god or gods they were told were real since childhood they grow up with the belief and as the saying goes a Lie that is constantly repeated becomes the truth over time. Most people assume god exist because they have been taught to believe it since childhood. If all children were only allowed to be presented with a bible or koran and other religious text only when they are 21 very very very few of them will ever believe in any of the hypothesis they contain about the origin of the universe and the other lalala tales they contain about life after death.

mazaje:

Well actually there is NO problem at all if you believe the lies and let it end there. . . .you use the lies as a justification to look down on others and as long as you continue to do that then you should always expect a push back. . . . . .

1. first u call them lies. . . when u have no evidence or basis to establish that they are lies. This shows a deeply rooted angst and bitterness traceable to ur childhood.

2. who EXACTLY have I looked down on? how is it my fault that u are already CONDEMNED and a candidate of HELL and eternal damnation?
is ur conscience pricking u?

Last time I checked u also chose to believe the lies that the bible is not real. . . . .no problem with that, except that u use it as a justification to think that u are intelligent, objective and open minded. .  .on the contrary u are neither of all those. . . . u are deluded, uninformed, ignorant, misguided, unintelligent, naive et all, . .  , all of these are deducible from ur posts.

You are my evidence that your god exist only in your deluded imaginations. . . . .I have said it so many times no god that truly exist will rely on an irrelevant entity like you to make his case for him at all. . . he will do it himself. . . .As for the bible writers its only people that are deluded that will write that the sun moves round the earth. . . if stoning disobedient children and human scarifice isn't barbarism then pls tell me what is. . . .   

This is a raw display of intellectual bankruptcy and laziness. . .you are simply mentally lazy and cannot think for ur self.
How many times have u repeated the drivel above?. . . , u now sound like a broken record.

I am not defending any one. .  .on the contrary I am simply revealing the inconsistencies, fallacies and jejune claims of ur ignorant postulations. God is not defendable by any one. . . . .all I have done is to keep revealing the short comings of ur ridiculously impotent arguments.

How do you know this? because your deluded mind tells you? I onced seeked the imaginary god with all my heart and never got anything. . . .My deconversion was personally a very painfulprovessto me but am VERY glad it happened. . . .The human brain is a very complex organ. . . . . What you claim is response is just your mind playing tricks on you. . . . .Didn't you once say that jesus appears to you in your dreams? . We all know that people always dream about what preocupies their minds most of the time. . . .Pls how did jesus look like and what language did he speak. . . Is he really a black man as NO2atheism says he is?. . . , 

Arrant Nonsense.

I know this because it is written in the bible. ok now u agree that u were just a christian by name and not by deeds. .  , . . . christianity is not for the inane and egoic ones. . . .its a relationship driven by humility. , . , and the fact is YOU WERE NEVER A CHRISTIAN

Where is your contact with your god telling you that he ordered any body to write the bible on his behalf?

Again your deluded opinion and claims are of NO importance here. . . . . .Its good to rant sometimes so I will allow you do that. . .  . . .

1. are u not ashamed of urself?   u cannot even substantiate ur claims or define ur beliefs. . .and u dare attack some one else beliefs. . .this is medically called LUNACY.

2. God inspired men to write the bible. . . , u can exercise ur choice to either believe or disbelieve.

mazaje:

So getting a job is called a miracle? 

Depends on the circumstances involved. Do u actually know the meaning of the word miracle?

I am yet to see any divine intervention when it comes to the healing of amputees. . . . can your god perform such a miracle?

does the above establish that amputees are unhealable. . . or does it deny the capacity of God to heal.
I think u should think before u open ur mouth.

Only because you are lying to yourself. . . didn't the bible say that those of you that believe in jesus will have the ability to preform magic(miracles)? Do you truly believe what the bible says if so how many blind people have you ever restored their sights like jesus promised you will be able to if only you believe in him? Do you believe in jesus and have faith as tiny as that of a mustard seed? If you do then let me know how many blind people you have been able to restore their sights. . . . That will sway me and make a a christain once again. . . .

you are fast becoming a nuisance. How many times have I answered this question?

Creationism is the thoughts and ideas of how bronze aged men thought the universe and the earth came about. . . .Its nothing more than a false and ridiculous hypothesis. . .

Really? how come u cannot refute creationism or produce an alternative?

noetic2:

1. first u call them lies. . . when u have no evidence or basis to establish that they are lies. This shows a deeply rooted angst and bitterness traceable to ur childhood

Of course they are lies. . . .that you believe them does not stop them from being the lies that they are. . . . You are my evidence that they are lies . . . .You call all the claims of the koran lies don't you? Where is your evidence to show that they indeed are lies. . . That you chose to believe in what some unknown people wrote about a jewish carpenter who once lived coming back to save you from himself does not stop it from being a lie. . . . .

2. who EXACTLY have I looked down on? how is it my fault that u are already CONDEMNED and a candidate of HELL and eternal damnation?
is ur conscience pricking u?

More pathetic and ridiculous nonsense. . . . because you believe in the writting of some people who say that thoseof us that do not share in their delusions are condenmed does not make it true. . .condemned of what exactly if I may ask? Is it not the same fools that wrote that it was right to rape and kill virgins and also scarifice them to the dememted deity the created? Thank goodness the world has changed if not I know goons like you will be in the forefront killing entire towns and scarificing them as burnt offerings unto your demented god as your wannabe ancestors(Moses, joshau and co) did in the bible. . . . . .My conscience is not picking me at all. . . . 

Last time I checked u also chose to believe the lies that the bible is not real. . . . .no problem with that, except that u use it as a justification to think that u are intelligent, objective and open minded. .  .on the contrary u are neither of all those. . . . u are deluded, uninformed, ignorant, misguided, unintelligent, naive et all, . .  , all of these are deducible from ur posts.

What is real about the bible? Because some ancient men wrote that their god used words to speak life into humans whom he made from dust does not make it real. . . .that you believe a jewishcarpenter is coming back to save your miserable ass from himself if you don't bow down and kiss his toes does not make it real. . . . Actually it's your post that reeks of delusion, stupidity, close mindedness, incompetence, irrelevance and utmost stupidity. . . .

This is a raw display of intellectual bankruptcy and laziness. . .you are simply mentally lazy and cannot think for ur self.
How many times have u repeated the drivel above?. . . , u now sound like a broken record.

It's ACTUALLY you that can not think for yourself. . . . little wonder you are always trying to rationalize(mostly through telling lies) the babaric writing of ancient goons who thought that it was right to stone to death disobedient children, cut the hands of women who go to rescue their husbands from their attackers or rape virgins and sacrifice them to the demented god the created in their own image. . . .

I am not defending any one. .  .on the contrary I am simply revealing the inconsistencies, fallacies and jejune claims of ur ignorant postulations. God is not defendable by any one. . . . .all I have done is to keep revealing the short comings of ur ridiculously impotent arguments.

What are my ignorant postulations? Aren't you all over the islamic section telling them that their god is dead and yours is alive. . . .If your god is trukly alive he will do it himself. . .he will not allow a know nothing and irrelevant slowpoke like you to do it for him. . . . . .Aren't you all over the place trying to show that the words and events talked about in the bible are true? Is the bible your word. . . . . why not allow the god you claim owns the bible to speak for himself and show people all the evidence himself. . . . The fact that you are the one doing it says that he does not exist outside of your deluded imaginations. . . . .

Arrant Nonsense.

I know this because it is written in the bible. ok now u agree that u were just a christian by name and not by deeds. .  , . . . christianity is not for the inane and egoic ones. . . .its a relationship driven by humility. , . , and the fact is YOU WERE NEVER A CHRISTIAN

Where is your personal contract between you and the jesus that you claim appears to you in your dreams telling you that he toldpeople to write the bible on his behalf? Will you stop talking about humility. . . . humility is what you lack completely. . . . . .Stop talking about it cos you lack it completely. . . . .

1. are u not ashamed of urself?  u cannot even substantiate ur claims or define ur beliefs. . .and u dare attack some one else beliefs. . .this is medically called LUNACY.

I have done that so many times. . . . .

2. God inspired men to write the bible. . . , u can exercise ur choice to either believe or disbelieve. 

That you chose to accept their lies does not make it true. . .where is your contract with the jesus that you claim appears to you in your dreams telling you that he inspired them to write most of the things they wrote? Some of them(Like Paul) at least were honest to say that they can even lie for their god if it will promote him. . . . . The koran was inspired by another god too no? deluded an pathetic idiot. . . . .

noetic2:

Depends on the circumstances involved. Do u actually know the meaning of the word miracle?

The lies you guys keep telling yourselfs so that you can feel happy. . . . .

does the above establish that amputees are unhealable. . . or does it deny the capacity of God to heal.
I think u should think before u open ur mouth.

How are they healed? So far despite all the healing claims we are yet to see your god heal any amputee and make his or her amputated limbs grow back. . . . . .

you are fast becoming a nuisance. How many times have I answered this question?

How many blind people have you healed? Do you believe in the promise jesus made to you?

Really? how come u cannot refute creationism or produce an alternative?

Your foolishness is pathetic. . . . I have done that so many times. . . . . .

mazaje:

Of course they are lies. . . .that you believe them does not stop them from being the lies that they are. . . . You are my evidence that they are lies . . . .You call all the claims of the koran lies don't you? Where is your evidence to show that they indeed are lies. . . That you chose to believe in what some unknown people wrote about a jewish carpenter who once lived coming back to save you from himself does not stop it from being a lie. . . . .

More pathetic and ridiculous nonsense. . . . because you believe in the writting of some people who say that thoseof us that do not share in their delusions are condenmed does not make it true. . .condemned of what exactly if I may ask? Is it not the same fools that wrote that it was right to rape and kill virgins and also scarifice them to the dememted deity the created? Thank goodness the world has changed if not I know goons like you will be in the forefront kinnling entire towns and scarificing them as burnt offerings unto your demented god as your wannabe ancestors(Moses, joshau and co) did in the bible. . . . . .My conscience is not picking me at all. . . . 

u never cease to amaze me with ur gullibility irked by ignorance, self denial and delusion.

1. there are historical non-biblical evidences/records that establish that Jesus indeed lived, died and resurrected.  That should be a cause of alarm for u cos u are definitely hell bound.

2. I have repeatedly asked u. . . where EXACTLY in the bible was it asked of christians to rape. kill and sacrifice virgins? why are u such a RIDICULOUS liar?

3. Do u know how much crime was committed in the name of atheism? which religious person killed as many people as Stalin and other known atheists. . . .You are a ridiculous hypocrite.  

What is real about the bible? Because some ancient men wrote that their god used words to speak life into humans whom he made from dust does not make it real. . . .that you believe a jewishcarpenter is coming back to save your miserable ass from himself if you don't bow down and kiss his toes does not make it real. . . . Actually it's your post that reeks of delusion, stupidity, close mindedness, incompetence, irrelevance and utmost stupidity. . . .

Everything about the bible is real. . . .
a. its prophetic revelations
b. spiritual accuracies
c. historical facts
d. scientific notions et all.

That u choose to disbelieve the bible based on ur self inflicted ignorance, delusive mental disorder, denial, moral debauchiveness, intellectual incompetence and lack of a reasoning capacity does not dispute the fact that the . . .BIBLE is TRULY the WORD of GOD.

It's ACTUALLY you that can not think for yourself. . . . little wonder you are always trying to rationalize(mostly through telling lies) the babaric writing of ancient goons who though that it was right to stone to death disobedient children, cut the hands of women who go to rescue their husbands from their attackers or rape virgins and sacrifice them to the demented god the created in their own image. . . .

you keep missing the point. . .largely due to the fact that u do not have a brain at all. ur posts do not give any reason to believe that u have one. . or do they?  

I am not thinking within any box or attempting to defend any book or GOD. . .I am simply revealing the jejune inconsistencies and unsound postulations of urs. . .postulations a 5 year old should not be found saying as they lack a convincing intellectual capacity. . . .

What are my ignorant postulations? Aren't you all over the islamic section telling them that their god is dead and yours is alive. . . .If your god is trukly alive he will do it himself. . .he will not allow a know nothing and irrelevant slowpoke like you to do it for him. . . . . .Aren't you all over the place trying to show that the words and events talked about in the bible are true? Is the bible your word. . . . . why not allow the god you claim owns the bible to speak for himself and show people all the evidence himself. . . . The fact that you are the one doing it says that he does not exist outside of your deluded imaginations. . . . .

again. . . .u like running around aimlessly to prove nihilant points.

1. My islamic posts reflect my disgust at the moral questions on islamic norms. Any idiot could have deduced that from my posts there.

2. God has repeatedly revealed himself through Jesus. . . . . u have the choice and liberty to either believe or disbelief. u have irrationally and unintelligibly chosen to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. . .are u ready to live with the consequences. . .judgement is set.

Where is your personal contract between you and the jesus that you claim appears to you in your dreams telling you that he toldpeople to write the bible on his behalf? Will you stop talking about humility. . . . humility is what you lack completely. . . . . .Stop talking about it cos you lack it completely. . . . .

do u actually have a brain at all? how many times have u asked this question on this thread?. . .sounds like u have nothing new to say?

I have done that so many times. . . . .

when and where exactly have u done so? u can repeat it right here. . .cant u. . . . .lying is not allowed.

That you chose to accept their lies does not make it true. . .where is your contract with the jesus that you claim appears to you in your dreams telling you that he inspired them to write most of the things they wrote? Some of them(Like Paul) at least were honest to say that they can even lie for their god if it will promote him. . . . . The koran was inspired by another god too no? deluded an pathetic idiot. . . . .

That u hide under the cloud of science does not give credibility to ur rantings. . . . . if further reveals the gullibility and porosity of ur reasoning and thinking faculties. . . Gush. . . . . did u actually post the above?  

mazaje:

Your foolishness is pathetic. . . . I have done that so many times. . . . . .

Really? when? where?

Do u mind refuting and representing ur alternative here for all to see. . . . . . .

@ Tudor

Noetic what happened to you?
Were you banned again?

I missed ur post . . . .

I was banned. . . .but I guess twas the spam bot. Thanks

noetic2:

u never cease to amaze me with ur gullibility irked by ignorance, self denial and delusion.

1. there are historical non-biblical evidences/records that establish that Jesus indeed lived, died and resurrected.  That should be a cause of alarm for u cos u are definitely hell bound.

Please show me one historical evidence which shows that jesus actually LIVED, DIED and WAS RESURRECTED OUTSIDE THE BIBLE. . . You are the ONLY FOOL that I know who HAS EVER made that ridiculous claim. . . .

2. I have repeatedly asked u. . . where EXACTLY in the bible was it asked of christians to rape. kill and sacrifice virgins? why are u such a RIDICULOUS liar?

I didn't say it says that christians should rape. . . I only said that the bible was mostly written by people who thought it was right to scarifice virgins and burn entire towns as a burnt offering unto their god. . .they wrote it down for all to see. . . . 

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

3. Do u know how much crime was committed in the name of atheism? which religious person killed as many people as Stalin and other known atheists. . . .You are a ridiculous hypocrite.  

Do you know how many people were killed during the crusades, inqusition, witch trail and all the other attrocites that were carried out in the name of jesus by people who used the cross as a source of inspiration? Stalin never said he killed any body in the name of atheism, he killed people purely based on political difference not because he wanted to convert them into atheism. . . millions have been killed in the name of jesus and yahweh. . . . . . You pathetic attempts to tie stalins attrocities to atheisn is very shameful. . . . he never preached atheism to any body. . . You brothers in the lord used the cross as a source of inspiration when killing jews and other non believers during the inquisition, witch trial and crusades no?

Everything about the bible is real. . . .
a. its prophetic revelations

Lets start with one false propehcy that NEVER happened. . . Ezekiel predicted Babylon would conquer Egypt and was wrong It never happened. Your lying bibloe says that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer egypt and that the nile river will dry up and the whole Egypt will be desolute for 40 years but it never happened. . .

b. spiritual accuracies

Like jesus christ being god and the same time sitting at the right hand side of god right very nice. . . .Or is it the nonsense tale that jesus christ being god was praying unto himself. . . . Nice spritual tale indeed. . . . 

c. historical facts

What historical facts exactly. . . the exodus that never happened or the fact that the writer of matthew and mark fail to agree on when exactly jesus was born? What about the lie written by matthew that babies were killed when jesus was born by herod that appears in no other book but in the gospel of matthew. . . a story that was not talked about by people that wrote almost every detail of herods like people like josephus that did not even like him. . . .

d. scientific notions et all.

Ecc 1:5  "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." Or the fact that the bible says evil spirits causes diseases. . .  Is it the nonsense that says that there is a firmament that seperates the waters above and waters below. . . or the stupid lie that a person survived inside a fish for 3 days. . . can you use your basic knowledge biology to tell me how he was able to breathe and stay alive inside a fish for 3 days. . . .  Are these the scientific facts? 

That u choose to disbelieve the bible based on ur self inflicted ignorance, delusive mental disorder, denial, moral debauchiveness, intellectual incompetence and lack of a reasoning capacity does not dispute the fact that the . . .BIBLE is TRULY the WORD of GOD.

That you choose to accept the words of fools who say that it is OK to stone to death their disobedient children or fools who say women should keep quite and not speak in front of men and their hands should be cut off when they dare attempt to rescue their husbands from his attackers as the word of your god does not mean it is true. . . .The koran is the word of allah no?. . . . deluded fool. . . .

you keep missing the point. . .largely due to the fact that u do not have a brain at all. ur posts do not give any reason to believe that u have one. . or do they?  

I am not thinking within any box or attempting to defend any book or GOD. . .I am simply revealing the jejune inconsistencies and unsound postulations of urs. . .postulations a 5 year old should not be found saying as they lack a convincing intellectual capacity. . . .

Will you keep quite you dishonest and discredited fool. . . were you not the same fool that was trying to defend the passage in the bible that says that parents should stone to death their disobedient children by foolishly and ridiculously equating it to treason? Idiot. . .

again. . . .u like running around aimlessly to prove nihilant points.

1. My islamic posts reflect my disgust at the moral questions on islamic norms. Any idiot could have deduced that from my posts there.

As if your own religion has better moral norms. . . .

2. God has repeatedly revealed himself through Jesus. . . . . u have the choice and liberty to either believe or disbelief. u have irrationally and unintelligibly chosen to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. . .are u ready to live with the consequences. . .judgement is set.

Because you choose to believe that delusion does not make it true. . . . .Who is going to judge me you or the imaginary gods of the trinity. . . I laugh in tongues. . . . . . 

do u actually have a brain at all? how many times have u asked this question on this thread?. . .sounds like u have nothing new to say?

Actually the person that needs a brain is you. . . . . .

when and where exactly have u done so? u can repeat it right here. . .cant u. . . . .lying is not allowed.

So many times. . . . We have debated that long before you came to NL. . . .

That u hide under the cloud of science does not give credibility to ur rantings. . . . . if further reveals the gullibility and porosity of ur reasoning and thinking faculties. . . Gush. . . . . did u actually post the above?  

Bla bla bla bla bla what has science got to do with the fact that Paul said that it is OK for him to Lie for his god. . . . Idiot. . . . . . .Keep on believing their lies. . . . .

Mazaje well done.

Now to neotic I asked if the bible can be used as a real historical document and you are still running all over the place. I showed you were a propecy was made that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer Egypt and that the Nile river will dry up, You lied that there was no time line specified when I showed you that it was supposed to happen during the reing of Nebuchadrezzar you came up with another excuse that some of the towns are no longer in existence, That actualy is a lie, Its just their names that have been changed.

noetic2:

1. there are historical non-biblical evidences/records that establish that Jesus indeed lived, died and resurrected.  That should be a cause of alarm for u cos u are definitely hell bound.

The part in bold is a LIE. Here is what the link you posted says The link you posted made NO such claim. Lets look at the sources from the link.

From Tacitus

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .

Tacitus was writing in the 2nd centuary(about 100 years after the supposed death of jesus). He wasn't a comtemporaty of jesus. He was just writing about what christians have been professing, he even called it the MOST MISCHIEVIOUS SUPERSTITION. He never said that jesus claimed to be the son of god, or that jesus died and was raised from the dead after 3 days. he never said that jesus performed miracles or called himself god or the son of god. He was only repeating the stories that christians have been saying. He wrote over 100 years after the supposed death of jesus. He was mostly writing about the life of the early christians and what they believed in.

Pliny the Younger

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind 

This does NOT say anything about jesus. Pliny the younger also wrote about 150 years after the supposed death and ressurection of jesus. He does not mention jesus or say anything about him. He only talks about the life of the early christians. Is this part of your evidence for jesus outside the bible? 

Josephus

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared

This passage is a fraud and contains some interpolations by some early catholic bishops, Your link acknowlwdges it. Here is what your link says

"Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!"

The writer in that link is honest enough to say that parts of it is a fraud and is an interpolation. Josephus will never call jesus the christ because he already believed that vapastin was the christ. The part about jesus's resurrection as noted by the writer of the link you posted is also a fraud.

Babylonian Talmud

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

If only you read the talmud it self you will know that it was NOT talking about jesus of the bible.

Uptill date there is NO historical document that talks about jesus and how he lived his life. The only document that did that are the gospels and books that were banned or thrown out of the bible. Nice try but these are all rubbish and nonsense try harder

noetic2:

Really? when? where?

Do u mind refuting and representing ur alternative here for all to see. . . . . . .

This goons accepts what he reads in ancient texts written by people who if he met them today he will not trust them with the time of day, much less the origin of the unverse. . . .That you believe in it does not make it true . . . .

Why EXACTLY does this brainless RETARD have a problem with stating his alternative to creationism? why are u so mentally lazy. . .such that u cannot think for urself and present ur own ideas or at the very least intelligently defend the rubbish u copy-paste from google?
where is ur alternative to the writings of "deluded and barbaric" men?. . . . .

mazaje:

Please show me one historical evidence which shows that jesus actually LIVED, DIED and WAS RESURRECTED OUTSIDE THE BIBLE. . . You are the ONLY FOOL that I know who HAS EVER made that ridiculous claim. . . .

what a blank head.

Read Toneyb's last post . . . or better still start ur research from here: http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm

when u are through let me know. . . .The fact remains the same, . . .Jesus Lived, Died and Resurrected. Extra biblical historical records attest to this fact.

I didn't say it says that christians should rape. . . I only said that the bible was mostly written by people who thought it was right to scarifice virgins and burn entire towns as a burnt offering unto their god. . .they wrote it down for all to see. . . . 

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

I have addressed this repeatedly on several threads. The old testament commandments have been summarised and fulfilled by Christ Himself.
They all add up to Love.

How does the above verse lend credence to ur point? I just dont get it. . . . or do u?

Do you know how many people were killed during the crusades, inqusition, witch trail and all the other attrocites that were carried out in the name of jesus by people who used the cross as a source of inspiration? Stalin never said he killed any body in the name of atheism, he killed people purely based on political difference not because he wanted to convert them into atheism. . . millions have been killed in the name of jesus and yahweh. . . . . . You pathetic attempts to tie stalins attrocities to atheisn is very shameful. . . . he never preached atheism to any body. . . You brothers in the lord used the cross as a source of inspiration when killing jews and other non believers during the inquisition, witch trial and crusades no?

will u please shut ur shamelessly brainless mouth.

how many people did Jesus kill? how many people did he ask his disciples to kill? why did ur christian parents not kill u?
Stalin killed simply because he believed there is no God. . .he did not kill for political differences. . .he only hid under the cloud of politics. . .he was well reputed atheist fundamentalist, a cold blooded animalistic slowpoke like every potential atheist is. . . .

Lets start with one false propehcy that NEVER happened. . . Ezekiel predicted Babylon would conquer Egypt and was wrong It never happened. Your lying bibloe says that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer egypt and that the nile river will dry up and the whole Egypt will be desolute for 40 years but it never happened. . .

This has been addressed already.

Like jesus christ being god and the same time sitting at the right hand side of god right very nice. . . .Or is it the nonsense tale that jesus christ being god was praying unto himself. . . . Nice spritual tale indeed. . . . 

On the contrary. . . . I believe that Jesus was only demonstarting to us how exactly we should pray and what to ask for , . . I sat this because.

a. Long before Jesus was born, all of His deeds was foretold.

b. When Jesus came. . .He made it clear that He is here to simply fulfil the things that had been said about Him in the prophecy.

From the two above I can deduce (because I have a brain. . . .unlike u) that when ever Jesus was praying it was in effect a teaching to believers on how to pray. One key lesson in His final prayer is that regardless of the circumstances we all should learn to submit to the father.
Jesus is God in human form. . . . u dont have to believe. . .but judgement is set.

What historical facts exactly. . . the exodus that never happened or the fact that the writer of matthew and mark fail to agree on when exactly jesus was born? What about the lie written by matthew that babies were killed when jesus was born by herod that appears in no other book but in the gospel of matthew. . . a story that was not talked about by people that wrote almost every detail of herods like people like josephus that did not even like him. . . .

blah blah blah

Ther are enormous historical and scientific records that establish that the red sea parted for the children of israel, that they were held captive and gained the promised land.

Hoe EXACTLY does mathew and mark not agree on the birth of Jesus?

Ecc 1:5  "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." Or the fact that the bible says evil spirits causes diseases. . .  Is it the nonsense that says that there is a firmament that seperates the waters above and waters below. . . or the stupid lie that a person survived inside a fish for 3 days. . . can you use your basic knowledge biology to tell me how he was able to breathe and stay alive inside a fish for 3 days. . . .  Are these the scientific facts? 

1. Ecc 1.5 is a proverb and not a prophetic revelation. any one with a common sense would treat it as such. . .why not read the entire chapter and find out.

2. what is ur explanation for the absence of diseases during the reign of moses as leader of israel. . . .or the 10 plagues that befell Egypt?
This were supernatural acts. while it is impossible to verify how spirits cause diseases. . . .we do know that diseases and all of evil that we face today are products of sin. . .there is no reason to believe other wise.

That you choose to accept the words of fools who say that it is OK to stone to death their disobedient children or fools who say women should keep quite and not speak in front of men and their hands should be cut off when they dare attempt to rescue their husbands from his attackers as the word of your god does not mean it is true. . . .The koran is the word of allah no?. . . . deluded fool. . . .

you have said this over a billion times. . . .that u also choose to disregard the bible does not make u a better person or any less an hypocrite.
In fact reading ur posts reveals a completely delusive and slowpoke-like brainless atheistic troll. . .who has little or no reasoning faculty.
Do u actually read the rubbish u post here sometimes?

Will you keep quite you dishonest and discredited fool. . . were you not the same fool that was trying to defend the passage in the bible that says that parents should stone to death their disobedient children by foolishly and ridiculously equating it to treason? Idiot. . .

As if your own religion has better moral norms. . . .

whats this RETARD saying?

Because you choose to believe that delusion does not make it true. . . . .Who is going to judge me you or the imaginary gods of the trinity. . . I laugh in tongues. . . . . . 

Actually the person that needs a brain is you. . . . . .


So many times. . . . We have debated that long before you came to NL. . . .

Bla bla bla bla bla what has science got to do with the fact that Paul said that it is OK for him to Lie for his god. . . . Idiot. . . . . . .Keep on believing their lies. . . . . 

Can u please produce ur alternative to creationism and the bible?

why is it taking u so long? . . . . .

toneyb:

Mazaje well done.

Now to neotic I asked if the bible can be used as a real historical document and you are still running all over the place. I showed you were a propecy was made that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer Egypt and that the Nile river will dry up, You lied that there was no time line specified when I showed you that it was supposed to happen during the reing of Nebuchadrezzar you came up with another excuse that some of the towns are no longer in existence, That actualy is a lie, Its just their names that have been changed.

what a gradual shift. . . .I thought u initially shamelessly postulated that there were no records outside of the bible to depict the existence of Jesus. . . now that u have them ur d.ick is in ur mouth. . .in remorse

The part in bold is a LIE. Here is what the link you posted says The link you posted made NO such claim. Lets look at the sources from the link.

From Tacitus

Tacitus was writing in the 2nd centuary(about 100 years after the supposed death of jesus). He wasn't a comtemporaty of jesus. He was just writing about what christians have been professing, he even called it the MOST MISCHIEVIOUS SUPERSTITION. He never said that jesus claimed to be the son of god, or that jesus died and was raised from the dead after 3 days. he never said that jesus performed miracles or called himself god or the son of god. He was only repeating the stories that christians have been saying. He wrote over 100 years after the supposed death of jesus. He was mostly writing about the life of the early christians and what they believed in.

Pliny the Younger

This does NOT say anything about jesus. Pliny the younger also wrote about 150 years after the supposed death and ressurection of jesus. He does not mention jesus or say anything about him. He only talks about the life of the early christians. Is this part of your evidence for jesus outside the bible? 

Josephus

This passage is a fraud and contains some interpolations by some early catholic bishops, Your link acknowlwdges it. Here is what your link says

"Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!"

The writer in that link is honest enough to say that parts of it is a fraud and is an interpolation. Josephus will never call jesus the christ because he already believed that vapastin was the christ. The part about jesus's resurrection as noted by the writer of the link you posted is also a fraud.

Babylonian Talmud

If only you read the talmud it self you will know that it was NOT talking about jesus of the bible.

Uptill date there is NO historical document that talks about jesus and how he lived his life. The only document that did that are the gospels and books that were banned or thrown out of the bible. Nice try but these are all rubbish and nonsense try harder

blah blah blah

All that u have up there are ur personla opinion and interpretations of the non-biblical records u asked for.
ur opinion is not worth a cent. . .so it does not count.

From the above . . .we know four things

a. Jesus Lived as claimed by the bible.

b. Jesus Died and all of israel knew. . .believers and non-believers

c. Jesus resurrected as evidenced in latter day evangelism

d. non-biblical records from non-christians attest to the facts above.

mazaje:

This goons accepts what he reads in ancient texts written by people who if he met them today he will not trust them with the time of day, much less the origin of the unverse. . . .That you believe in it does not make it true . . . .

can this slowpoke produce his alternative to creationism and the bible?

noetic2:

what a gradual shift. . . .I thought u initially shamelessly postulated that there were no records outside of the bible to depict the existence of Jesus. . . now that u have them ur d.ick is in ur mouth. . .in remorse

Can you show me where I made that statement? It seems lying for jesus is all you know how to do these days.

blah blah blah

All that u have up there are ur personla opinion and interpretations of the non-biblical records u asked for.
ur opinion is not worth a cent. . .so it does not count.

How are they My personal opinion. Pliny the younger did not mention Jesus at all and thats a fact he only wrote about the earlychristians besides he wrote in the 2nd centuary about 100 years after the supposed death of jesus. Tacitus was writing about 100 years after the death of jesus and he calls it the MOST MISCHIEVIOUS SUPERSTITION. The link you posted above Agreed and ackowledge that the writing about jesus resection was a fraud and addition by other christians so what really is my own personal opinion here? I quoted everything for you to see from the link you provided.

From the above . . .we know four things

a. Jesus Lived as claimed by the bible.

NON of them said that jesus claimed to be god or the son of god as the bible says. Non of them said that he was born of a virgin, non of them said that there was an order by herod to kill babies when jesus was born, non of them said he walked on water and raised people from the dead so what exactly do you mean by from the above jesus lived as climed by the bible? NON of them say anything that is close to what the bible says about jesus, Infact Tacitus said that the entire tale was a vicious superstition at best so how does that come close to any thing written about jesus in the gospels?

b. Jesus Died and all of israel knew. . .believers and non-believers

Where did you get this from? NON of sources wrote any thing close to that. Even the gospels were written long after the supposed death of jesus(45-70 years)

c. Jesus resurrected as evidenced in latter day evangelism

. So because the disciples of jesus said he resurrected makes it true? Didn't they write in the gospels that they want people to believe in what they wrote down? So the speard of islam after the death of mohammed by his followers is evidence that mohammed went to ascended into heaven on a white horse from dome in jerusalem no?

d. non-biblical records from non-christians attest to the facts above.

The ones you provided at least say you are a deluded LIAR because they make NO such claim.

toneyb:

Can you show me where I made that statement? It seems lying for jesus is all you know how to do these days.

what a dumb head u are what EXACTLY was the basis of ur reference to Tacitus, Josephus et all?

How are they My personal opinion. Pliny the younger did not mention Jesus at all and thats a fact he only wrote about the earlychristians besides he wrote in the 2nd centuary about 100 years after the supposed death of jesus. Tacitus was writing about 100 years after the death of jesus and he calls it the MOST MISCHIEVIOUS SUPERSTITION. The link you posted above Agreed and ackowledge that the writing about jesus resection was a fraud and addition by other christians so what really is my own personal opinion here? I quoted everything for you to see from the link you provided.

do u really know the meaning of an opinion?

u have established that there are non-biblical records that clearly state that Jesus as we know Him EXISTED.
what u make of this records is ur PERSONAL OPINION. . . .which is WORTHLESS as far as this thread is concerned.

NON of them said that jesus claimed to be god or the son of god as the bible says. Non of them said that he was born of a virgin, non of them said that there was an order by herod to kill babies when jesus was born, non of them said he walked on water and raised people from the dead so what exactly do you mean by from the above jesus lived as climed by the bible? NON of them say anything that is close to what the bible says about jesus, Infact Tacitus said that the entire tale was a vicious superstition at best so how does that come close to any thing written about jesus in the gospels?

blah blah blah

dont u get tired of running round this circle?

Where did you get this from? NON of sources wrote any thing close to that. Even the gospels were written long after the supposed death of jesus(45-70 years)

. So because the disciples of jesus said he resurrected makes it true? Didn't they write in the gospels that they want people to believe in what they wrote down? So the speard of islam after the death of mohammed by his followers is evidence that mohammed went to ascended into heaven on a white horse from dome in jerusalem no?

The ones you provided at least say you are a deluded LIAR because they make NO such claim.

blah blah blah

whats new in the rubbish above?

noetic2:

Why EXACTLY does this brainless RETARD have a problem with stating his alternative to creationism? why are u so mentally lazy. . .such that u cannot think for urself and present ur own ideas or at the very least intelligently defend the rubbish u copy-paste from google?
where is ur alternative to the writings of "deluded and barbaric" men?. . . . .

Bla bla bla sheep have you any wool? . You delusion and utmost stupidity is really pathetic. . . . .

what a blank head.

Repeat after me say My name is neotic and I am a deluded blank head. . . . .

Read Toneyb's last post . . . or better still start ur research from here: http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm

when u are through let me know. . . .The fact remains the same, . . .Jesus Lived, Died and Resurrected. Extra biblical historical records attest to this fact.

I read the link and all I saw from your link were
1. Tacitus said that the jesus story was the most mischievous superstition. . . .
2. Pliny the younger did NOT even mention jesus at all but only talked about the life of the early christians. . .
3. The writer of the link you provided said that the writings of josephus were altered by christians. . .he said that josephus did not write that jesus was christ and that he was raised after 3 days. . . The guy was sincere enough to make and acknowledge those points at least there by rendering all your deluded screams baseless by the way the link you provided only confirms that you are a deluded fool and a lair. . . . .

I have addressed this repeatedly on several threads. The old testament commandments have been summarised and fulfilled by Christ Himself.
They all add up to Love.

Its been long since I laughed this hard. . . . eh? chie no be small thing ohh so killing entire towns and sacrificing them as burnt offering all add up to love eh? telling parents to stone to death their disobedient children all add up to love eh? Sexism, rape, murder, lying and theaft as commanded by yahweh and his prophets all add up to love eh. You are truly a very pathetic nut case. . .you need to have your head seriosuly checked this is the worst apologetics i have ever heard. . .

How does the above verse lend credence to ur point? I just dont get it. . . . or do u?

will u please shut ur shamelessly brainless mouth.

how many people did Jesus kill? how many people did he ask his disciples to kill? why did ur christian parents not kill u?
Stalin killed simply because he believed there is no God. . .he did not kill for political differences. . .he only hid under the cloud of politics. . .he was well reputed atheist fundamentalist, a cold blooded animalistic slowpoke like every potential atheist is. . . .

. Who the heck is stalin and in what way does he represent me or other atheist?. . . You started by saying that stalin killed so many people but when I showed you that your christian brothers killed far more people than stalin did while chanting the name of jesus and using the cross as a source of inspiration you came of with this pathetic line asking me how many people jesus killed. . . . Are you this pathetic? . . .were the crusaders, the commanders of the inquisition and witch trial all not carrying crosses and chanting the name of jesus while killing and plundering others? pathetic goon. . . .

This has been addressed already.

How has you deluded lies being addressed? adressed by who exactly?

a. Long before Jesus was born, all of His deeds was foretold.

For told by who exactly? Keep in mind that author of matthew who is a lair was caught shamelessly lying and twisting the jewish torah when writing down his lies. . .let me give you an example. . .

Matthew said that the purchase of the potter's field with the thirty pieces of silver that Judas cast back to the chief priests and elders fulfilled a prophecy made by Jeremiah: "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was priced, whom certain of the children of Israel did price; and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord appointed me" (matthew27:9-10). The only problem is that Jeremiah never wrote anything remotely similar to this, so how could this be a fulfillment of "that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet"?

That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." In two different places, then, New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. Try as they may, however, bibliolaters cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. It simply doesn't exist.

b. When Jesus came. . .He made it clear that He is here to simply fulfil the things that had been said about Him in the prophecy.

Made up prohecies The jews who know the torah atleast do not buy this lie that the new testament writers wrote down up till date. . . . .judaism is still alive you know. . . .

From the two above I can deduce (because I have a brain. . . .unlike u) that when ever Jesus was praying it was in effect a teaching to believers on how to pray. One key lesson in His final prayer is that regardless of the circumstances we all should learn to submit to the father.
Jesus is God in human form. . . . u dont have to believe. . .but judgement is set.

When will you allow jesus to tell people that he is god in human form? I thought you keep crying that you are not defending your god or doing his work for him. . . will you keep quite and let jesus caome and tell people that he is god in human form. . . . the fact that you are doing this shows that he does not exist out side your deluded imaginations. . . .

blah blah blah

Ther are enormous historical and scientific records that establish that the red sea parted for the children of israel, that they were held captive and gained the promised land.

You presented your "ernourmous" historical evidence that shows that non biblical sources wrote that jesus lived, died and was raised from the dead but after reading them they link you provided and the "ernourmous" sources all show that you are a stupid and deluded lair that seriously needs help. . . . .

Hoe EXACTLY does mathew and mark not agree on the birth of Jesus?

The Gospel of Luke claims (2.1-2) that Jesus was born during a census that we know from the historian Josephus took place after Herod the Great died, and after his successor, Archelaus, was deposed. But Matthew claims (2.1-3) that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was still alive--possibly two years before he died (2:7-16). Other elements of their stories also contradict each other. Since Josephus precisely dates the census to 6 A.D. and Herod's death to 4 B.C., and the sequence is indisputable, Luke and Matthew contradict each other.

1. Ecc 1.5 is a proverb and not a prophetic revelation. any one with a common sense would treat it as such. . .why not read the entire chapter and find out.

You are a fool. . . . .

2. what is ur explanation for the absence of diseases during the reign of moses as leader of israel. . . .or the 10 plagues that befell Egypt?
This were supernatural acts. while it is impossible to verify how spirits cause diseases. . . .

Are you really serious?. . . .The mythical plauges exist only in the pages of the lying torah and NO where else. . . . This fools keeps pushing evidence into the realm of the impossible by saying that it is impossible to verify how evil spirits cause disaseses. . . .

we do know that diseases and all of evil that we face today are products of sin. . .there is no reason to believe other wise.

Malaria, ulcer, common cold, heat rash, cancer, river blindness etc are all products of sin eh. . . well done clap for yourself. . . . hopeless fool. . . .

you have said this over a billion times. . . .that u also choose to disregard the bible does not make u a better person or any less an hypocrite.
In fact reading ur posts reveals a completely delusive and slowpoke-like brainless atheistic troll. . .who has little or no reasoning faculty.
Do u actually read the rubbish u post here sometimes?

Bla bla bla sheep have you any wool?

whats this RETARD saying?

Showing your lies. . .you falsely claim that you never try to defend the bible but were quick to justify the babaric commandment that says parents should stone to death their disobedient children by stupidly and ridiculously equating disobedience to treason. . . what a pathetic slowpoke. . . .

Can u please produce ur alternative to creationism and the bible?

why is it taking u so long? . . . . .

The creation story in the koran is an alternative allah created the world. . . that you do not believe it does not mean its not true. . . . .

mazaje:

Bla bla bla sheep have you any wool? . You delusion and utmost stupidity is really pathetic. . . . .

Repeat after me say My name is neotic and I am a deluded blank head. . . . .

why am I debating with this blank head?

WHAT IS UR ALTERNATIVE TO CREATIONISM? WHAT IS UR ALTERNATIVE TO THE BIBLE?

why does this blank head have a problem answering this simple question? why is it so hard? is it because the folly of ur lack of intellect has been ridiculously revealed over time?

I read the link and all I saw from your link were
1. Tacitus said that the jesus story was the most mischievous superstition. . . .
2. Pliny the younger did NOT even mention jesus at all but only talked about the life of the early christians. . .
3. The writer of the link you provided said that the writings of josephus were altered by christians. . .he said that josephus did not write that jesus was christ and that he was raised after 3 days. . . The guy was sincere enough to make and acknowledge those points at least there by rendering all your deluded screams baseless by the way the link you provided only confirms that you are a deluded fool and a lair. . . . .

You are a shameless liar. . . . is lying allowed in atheism. . . .u are ridiculously debauched.

The following are deducible from the link provided, . . .and I have decided to copy it here for all to see as a summary of the link as against the impotent lies u have elected to tell here. . .what a shameless pig. . .

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

. Who the heck is stalin and in what way does he represent me or other atheist?. . . You started by saying that stalin killed so many people but when I showed you that your christian brothers killed far more people than stalin did while chanting the name of jesus and using the cross as a source of inspiration you came of with this pathetic line asking me how many people jesus killed. . . . Are you this pathetic? . . .were the crusaders, the commanders of the inquisition and witch trial all not carrying crosses and chanting the name of jesus while killing and plundering others? pathetic goon. . . .

I have repeatedly asked u. . , where EXACTLY did JEsus ask any one to kill in His name?

For told by who exactly? Keep in mind that author of matthew who is a lair was caught shamelessly lying and twisting the jewish torah when writing down his lies. . .let me give you an example. . .

Matthew said that the purchase of the potter's field with the thirty pieces of silver that Judas cast back to the chief priests and elders fulfilled a prophecy made by Jeremiah: "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was priced, whom certain of the children of Israel did price; and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord appointed me" (matthew27:9-10). The only problem is that Jeremiah never wrote anything remotely similar to this, so how could this be a fulfillment of "that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet"?

have u searched the book of jeremiah properly

That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." In two different places, then, New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. Try as they may, however, bibliolaters cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. It simply doesn't exist.

what a brainless and ridiculously gullible dude

psalm 16:10
because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

Made up prohecies The jews who know the torah atleast do not buy this lie that the new testament writers wrote down up till date. . . . .judaism is still alive you know. . . .

When will you allow jesus to tell people that he is god in human form? I thought you keep crying that you are not defending your god or doing his work for him. . . will you keep quite and let jesus caome and tell people that he is god in human form. . . . the fact that you are doing this shows that he does not exist out side your deluded imaginations. . . .

You presented your "ernourmous" historical evidence that shows that non biblical sources wrote that jesus lived, died and was raised from the dead but after reading them they link you provided and the "ernourmous" sources all show that you are a stupid and deluded lair that seriously needs help. . . . .

The Gospel of Luke claims (2.1-2) that Jesus was born during a census that we know from the historian Josephus took place after Herod the Great died, and after his successor, Archelaus, was deposed. But Matthew claims (2.1-3) that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was still alive--possibly two years before he died (2:7-16). Other elements of their stories also contradict each other. Since Josephus precisely dates the census to 6 A.D. and Herod's death to 4 B.C., and the sequence is indisputable, Luke and Matthew contradict each other.

You are a fool. . . . .

Are you really serious?. . . .The mythical plauges exist only in the pages of the lying torah and NO where else. . . . This fools keeps pushing evidence into the realm of the impossible by saying that it is impossible to verify how evil spirits cause disaseses. . . .

Malaria, ulcer, common cold, heat rash, cancer, river blindness etc are all products of sin eh. . . well done clap for yourself. . . . hopeless fool. . . .

Bla bla bla sheep have you any wool?

Showing your lies. . .you falsely claim that you never try to defend the bible but were quick to justify the babaric commandment that says parents should stone to death their disobedient children by stupidly and ridiculously equating disobedience to treason. . . what a pathetic slowpoke. . . .


The creation story in the koran is an alternative allah created the world. . . that you do not believe it does not mean its not true. . . . .

Can u please present ur alternative to the bible and creationism? are u such an empty head?

noetic2:

what a dumb head u are what EXACTLY was the basis of ur reference to Tacitus, Josephus et all?

My reference to them was that they did not corroborate some of the lies that were written in the bible, lies like the massacre that was ordered by herod telling his men to kill all the babies in bathelehem. Stories like the ressurection of all the jewish saints that were raised from the dead for all to see are also myths because they appear only in the book of matthew and no where else, contemporaties like Josephus would have written nabout them if they were true.

do u really know the meaning of an opinion?

Why are you bleating like a rejected baby?

u have established that there are non-biblical records that clearly state that Jesus as we know Him EXISTED.
what u make of this records is ur PERSONAL OPINION. . . .which is WORTHLESS as far as this thread is concerned.

Which non blilical records claim that jesus is either god ot the son of god? Which one of them said that he died and was raised from the dead? Which one of them said that he was born of a virgin? The link that you provided agreed that Josephus NEVER wrote the part about jesus ressurecting from the dead after 3 days, They writer who is a christian apologist agrees that the part was written by christians NOT by Josephus himself. Pliny the younger did NOT even mention jesus as a person at all. Tacitus says its the most mischevious superstition ever(I believe you know what a supperstition is). The Talmud does NOT talk about the Jesus of the bible. READ the TALMUD and stop relying on the lies of your fellow apologist The TALMUD is still available you can get a copy. READ IT. You will see that the Yeshu talked about is NOT the Jesus of the bible.

blah blah blah

dont u get tired of running round this circle?

blah blah blah

whats new in the rubbish above?

When ever your lies have been exposed you try to make light of it by mocking yourself .

toneyb:

My reference to them was that they did not corroborate some of the lies that were written in the bible, lies like the massacre that was ordered by herod telling his men to kill all the babies in bathelehem. Stories like the ressurection of all the jewish saints that were raised from the dead for all to see are also myths because they appear only in the book of matthew and no where else, contemporaties like Josephus would have written nabout them if they were true.

Why are you bleating like a rejected baby?

Which non blilical records claim that jesus is either god ot the sun of god? Which one of them said that he died and was raised from the dead? Which one of them said that he was born of a virgin? The link that you provided agreed that Josephus NEVER wrote the part about jesus ressurecting from the dead after 3 days, They writer who is a christian apologist agree that the part was written by christians NOT Josephus. The Talmud does NOT talk about the Jesus of the bible. READ the TALMUD and stop relying on the lies of your fellow apologist The TALMUD is still available you can get a copy. READ IT. You will see that the Yeshu talked about is NOT the Jesus of the bible.

When ever your lies have been exposed you try to make light of it by mocking yourself .

blah blah blah

You came here crying that there are no non-biblical records that suggest the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus. . . . .I just gave u a link to that. And here is the summary from the link again. . . .

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!



what ur next question?. . . .

Or why dont u present ur alternative to creationism and the bible?

noetic2:

blah blah blah

You came here crying that there are no non-biblical records that suggest the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus. . . . .I just gave u a link to that. And here is the summary from the link again. . .

YES and I stand by it. NON of the people you talked about made any such claim that Jesus died and was resurreted the only person amongst them that was alleged to have written about jesus resurrection was acknowledged even by the writer of the link you provided to be a fraud. You are not the first person that has been lying for jesus, So many people have been doing that long before your grand parents were born. I never said that a man named jesus did not live in first cebntuary palestine, All that we know about him is written ONLY in the gospels whose authors remain UNKNOWN till this day.

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise.[b]

[/quote]

Josephus NEVER wrote anything about Jesus It was all a fraud. There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime. Like the supposed founders of many religions, Jesus left no personal writings of any kind, nor any personal trace of his existence all we know about him we know from the gospels that were written decades after he died. Indeed the Gospels themselves state many times that "scribes" were present during the various acts of Jesus, yet we have no records from these supposed scribes.

Nothing in the Jewish midrash of the time mentions anything about Jesus Christ or any of the events in the Gospels. Not only this, but there are many people that lived during the supposed lifetime of Jesus, whose written works have been preserved, and whom we could expect to have written about him if truly he went about doing all the things that were written about him in the gospels.

Judea was a small place and wasn't highly populated at that time any body that feeds 5 thousand men with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread will be known and written about by the contemporary historians of that time. NON of Jesus's contemporaries wrote anything about him.

Philo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in Judea

Now let's take a close look at the writing of Josephus and see.

The Testimonium appears in Book 18 of Antiquity of the Jews. It is presented in context below, with the Testimonium itself highlighted in bold.

[quote]1. But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty.
- Antiquity of the Jews, Book XVIII; Flavius Josephus, 94-100 CE

The first thing that you should notice is that the passage about Jesus interrupts the flow of the writing. Paragraph 2 leads into paragraph 4, while paragraph 3 is an interruption that goes off on a tangent that is not related to the subject at hand. This alone is a pretty significant piece of evidence that it was an interpolation.

Here are some points that show that the passage is a fraud and was never written by Josephus

# The passage contains overtly Christian content
# The passage interrupts the continuity of the writing
# Jesus is not mentioned in the Table of Contents
# There are stylistic variations from Josephus' style
# The passage is not referenced by anyone prior to Eusebius in the 4th century
# The section on Pilate is similar to another section on Pilate in Josephus' earlier writing The Jewish War, which does not contain the Jesus reference
# Josephus never wrote anything else about Jesus.

So many Christian scholars agree that the passage was not written by Josephus.

Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher

This is a great lie because Pliny NEVER mentioned the name of Jesus AT ALL. The Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is NOT the same as Jesus of the bible. Here is what is written In the Talmud.



If you read the talmud and stop listening to the discredited lies of your fellow jesus apologist that know nothing but tell lies for jesus you will see that the talmud says that before executing Yeshu the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution. Ulla, however, questioned this practice. An enticer, due to the Torah mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration. The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different. Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government. This is NOT the jesus of the bible is it? Was Ulla mentioned in the bible? The Yeshu of the Talmud was hanged not Crucified beside he had some friends in government which the jesus of the bible never had according to the bible.


Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!
[/b][/i]

Josephus did not write anything about jesus it has long been shown to be a fraudulent work of christians, The Talmud NEVER talked about Jesus of the bible.(Read it yourself instead of relying on the lies of your fellow lairs for jesus) Pliny never mendioned the name jesus and tacitus was clearly relaying information that originally came from Christians themselves.

what ur next question?. . . .

My next question is When will you STOP lying for jesus?

Or why dont u present ur alternative to creationism and the bible?

I don't need to provide any alternative for a lie all I need to do is show that it is a lie and leave it at that.

noetic2:

blah blah blah

You came here crying that there are no non-biblical records that[b] suggest the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus[/b]. . . . .I just gave u a link to that. And here is the summary from the link again. . .

There is NO non biblical record that makes such claim. Your link did not make that claim at all.

[b]Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise.

[/quote]

Josephus never wrote any thing about Jesus at all. It was an interpolation done by another christian. Non of the people that lived during the time of jesus wrote anything about him. Any body that went around raising the dead, healing the sick walking on water and feeding 5000 men beside women and children with 2 fish and 5 loaves will be written about by writers or historians that lived at that time. Like the supposed founders of many religions, Jesus left no personal writings of any kind, nor any trace of his existence. Not only this, but there are many people that lived during the supposed lifetime of Jesus, whose written works have been preserved, and whom we could expect to have written about him. Philo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in Judea.

Now lets take a look at the writing of Josephus.

To evaluate the passage we must first consider the Testimonium in context. The Testimonium appears in Book 18 of Antiquity of the Jews. It is presented in context below, with the Testimonium itself highlighted in bold.

[quote]1. But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty.
- Antiquity of the Jews, Book XVIII; Flavius Josephus, 94-100 CE

If you look at it very closely you will see that

Points against authenticity are as follow:

* The passage contains overtly Christian content
* The passage interrupts the continuity of the writing
* Jesus is not mentioned in the Table of Contents
* There are stylistic variations from Josephus' style
* The passage is not referenced by anyone prior to Eusebius in the 4th century
* The section on Pilate is similar to another section on Pilate in Josephus' earlier writing The Jewish War, which does not contain the Jesus reference
* Josephus never wrote anything else about Jesus

What happened to toneyb's post? I can't see it again.

toneyb where is ur post?

toneyb:

There is NO non biblical record that makes such claim. Your link did not make that claim at all.

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise.
If you look at it very closely you will see that

Points against authenticity are as follow:

    * The passage contains overtly Christian content
    * The passage interrupts the continuity of the writing
    * Jesus is not mentioned in the Table of Contents
    * There are stylistic variations from Josephus' style
    * The passage is not referenced by anyone prior to Eusebius in the 4th century
    * The section on Pilate is similar to another section on Pilate in Josephus' earlier writing The Jewish War, which does not contain the Jesus reference
    * Josephus never wrote anything else about Jesus

why do u enjoy lying so much?. . . . .u tell ridiculous lies just to prove a nihilant point. . . . . .what a dunce u are.

The following are deducible from the link (which are a list of non-biblical sources)

1. Jesus was a wise man . . . . . .Josephus and Lucian state this.

2. Jesus was a powerful and revered teacher. . . . . .Pliny, Talmud and Lucian state this in their accounts.

3. Jesus performed great miracles. . . . Josephus and Talmud confirm this.

4. Jesus was crucified. . . . Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified.

5. The Jesus events occured during Pontius Pilate . . . . .Tacitus and Josephus confirm this.

6. The crucifixion happened on the eve of passover . . . . Talmud states this clearly

7. Jesus is believed as the Christ and Messiah . . . . Josephus clearly records this.


even a dullard and no-brainer can deduce all of the above from the non-biblical sources provided.

noetic2:

why do u enjoy lying so much?. . . . .u tell ridiculous lies just to prove a nihilant point. . . . . .what a dunce u are.

The following are deducible from the link (which are a list of non-biblical sources)

Thats false because Josephus NEVER wrote anything about Jesus even the link you provided agrees that it was written by a christian I provided the writing of Josephus in whole so that you can see that it is a fraud carried out by one of your christian brothers.

1. Jesus was a wise man . . . . . .Josephus and Lucian state this.

The passagea about Jesus that was written by Josephus has been shown to be a fraud even the link you provided agrees with it. The only difference is that they do not agree that it was completely a fraud which is the only excuse most deluded christian apologist hold on to so that they can sleep at night.

2. Jesus was a powerful and revered teacher. . . . . .Pliny, Talmud and Lucian state this in their accounts.

Pliny Never mentioned the name of Jesus at all. He only was talking about the religious practice of early christians. What a pathetic lair you are.

3. [b]Jesus performed great miracles. . . . Josephus and Talmud confirm this.[/b]

Do you know what confirm is at all? Josephus is a fraud now lets look at the talmud and see.

Talmud Sanhedrin 43a 

It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray.  Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him."  But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. 

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him?  He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." 

Yeshu was different because he was close to the government. Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution.  Ulla, however, questioned this practice.  An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration.  The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different.  Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government. The Yeshu in the Talmud was hanged not crucified.

He had connections with people that were close to the government unlike Jesus of the bible and Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans.  During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee.  It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his.  During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.

There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government and Ulla was not mentioned any where in the gospels. So the Yeshu talked about in the Talmud is NOT the Jesus of the bible. Find a copy of the Talmud and read for yourself instead of relying on the lies of your fellow Jesus apologist.

You can get a copy of the story from the Talmud here

4. Jesus was crucified. . . . Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified.

5. The Jesus events occured during Pontius Pilate . . . . .Tacitus and Josephus confirm this.

6. The crucifixion happened on the eve of passover . . . . Talmud states this clearly

7. Jesus is believed as the Christ and Messiah . . . . Josephus clearly records this.


even a dullard and no-brainer can deduce all of the above from the non-biblical sources provided.

What are the non "biblical sources"? Is it the the talmud that talks about a different yeshu than the one talked about in the gospels or the works of josephus that have been shown to be a fraudulent act of a christian? What really are the non biblical sources? .

toneyb:

Thats false because Josephus NEVER wrote anything about Jesus even the link you provided agrees that it was written by a christian I provided the writing of Josephus in whole so that you can see that it is a fraud carried out by one of your christian brothers.

The passagea about Jesus that was written by Josephus has been shown to be a fraud even the link you provided agrees with it. The only difference is that they do not agree that it was completely a fraud which is the only excuse most deluded christian apologist hold on to so that they can sleep at night.

Pliny Never mentioned the name of Jesus at all. He only was talking about the religious preactice of early christians. What a pathetic lair you are.

Do you know what confirm is at all? Josephus is a fraud now lets look at the talmud and see.



Yeshu was different because he was close to the government. Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution.  Ulla, however, questioned this practice.  An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration.  The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different.  Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government. The Yeshu in the Talmud was hanged not crucified.

He had connections with people that were close to the government unlike Jesus of the bible and Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans.  During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee.  It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his.  During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.

There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government and Ulla was not mentioned any where in the gospels. So the Yeshu talked about in the Talmud is NOT the Jesus of the bible. Find a copy of the Talmud and read for yourself instead of relying on the lies of your fellow Jesus apologist.

You can get a copy of the story from the Talmud here

What are the non "biblical sources"? Is it the the talmud that talks about a different yeshu than the one talked about in the gospels or the works of josephus that have been shown to be a fraudulent act of a christian? What really are the non biblical sources? .

BLAH BLAH BLAH

u asked for non-biblical accounts of Jesus, that buttress the bible accounts. . . . u have got it.

So. . . .next question?

noetic2:

BLAH BLAH BLAH

u asked for non-biblical accounts of Jesus, that buttress the bible accounts. . . . u have got it.

So. . . .next question?

The many lies this deluded liars tell themselves so that they can always feel happy in their delusions. You did NOT provide any source out side the bible that talked about the jesus of the bible.

Your link talked about tacitus but tacitus only talked about what christians have been saying for over 100 years. At the end he called the entire tale the most mischevious superstition showing that he does not agree at all with it and it is a LIE. He then called the entire christian narrative a MISCHEVIOUS SUPERSTITION.

Josephus's work has been shown to be a fraud(Your link agrees with it). A Christian wrote that part about jesus and interporlated it into the already existing writing of Josephus. IT is a fraud Josephus NEVER wrote anything about jesus.

The Talmu talks about a Yeshu that was hanged on the evee of passover by the jewish courts. The jesus of the bible was NOT hanged but crucified by the romans NOT the jewish courts. The Yeshu in the Talmud was very close to the government and Ulla his very lose friend who was part of the government was trying to look for eviedence to exenorate him. That is NOT the jesus talked about in the bible.

Here is a copy of the Talmud Read it an stop lying for jesus.

Try again you have NOT provided any source out side the bible that says jesus was born of a virgin,babies were killed by herod when he was born, that he walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, dead jewish saints resurrected from the dead and walked round the city of jerusalem for every body to see when he was crucified, that he died and was raised from the dead. So far you have only provided the work of Tacitus who calls the entire tale a mischevious superstition. Josephus work that is a fraud and the talmud that talkes about a different yeshu. Try again

toneyb:

Do you know what confirm is at all? Josephus is a fraud now lets look at the talmud and see.

Isnt it funny how josephus is a "fraud" all of a sudden because his non-biblical account of Christ completely undermines the atheist viewpoint?

Is this the same Josephus whose works have largely been used to construct the history of Israel till date? Is this the same Josephus whose detailed account of Herod's tomb was used to discover the very tomb at the very site he mentioned in his work?

davidylan:

Isnt it funny how josephus is a "fraud" all of a sudden because his non-biblical account of Christ completely undermines the atheist viewpoint?

What really are his non biblical account of jesus? Can't you read? Didn't you see that the christian apologist in the link that noetic provided himself even agrees that his writings were tampared with by a christian because Josephus never wrote some of those those things(christian apologist keep saying that he wrote part of it not all of it), Its not an atheist that said it but a christian so go and break your neck. Josepus account is a fraud he NEVER wrote any thing about jesus no matter how you love deluding yourself beliving that he did so that you can sleep at night.

Here is what the christian apologist said.

"Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!"

Is this the same Josephus whose works have largely been used to construct the history of Israel till date? Is this the same Josephus whose detailed account of Herod's tomb was used to discover the very tomb at the very site he mentioned in his work?

What has this got to do with the FACT that christian scholars mostly agree that his work was tampared with by some christians? By the way is it the same Josephus who wrote in details about Herod and failed to mention the killing of babies talked about in the bible(the story that appears ONLY in the book of matthew and no where else?). is it the same josephus that places the death of john the baptist after the death of jesus even though all the gospels say that john the baptist died first? Is it the same Josephus that shows that the writers of tyhe bible clearly do not know what they are talking about with regards to the exact time they claim jesus was born?

The Gospel of Luke claims (2.1-2) that Jesus was born during a census that we know from the historian Josephus took place after Herod the Great died, and after his successor, Archelaus, was deposed. But Matthew claims (2.1-3) that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was still alive--possibly two years before he died (2:7-16). Other elements of their stories also contradict each other. Since Josephus precisely dates the census to 6 A.D. and Herod's death to 4 B.C., and the sequence is indisputable, Luke and Matthew contradict each other.