Scholar8200:
Now the just shall live by faith: [size=14pt]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/size]. 39 But we are not of them who [size=14pt]draw back unto perdition[/size]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Hebrews 10:38,39

Here we see that a person who once believed and backslides to his life of sin, wallowing in its mire shall perish.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
( MEANING THEY WERE ACTUALLY SAVED!!!)

21[b] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]
(THEY FAILED, BY GRACE, TO WALK IN HOLINESS OF LIFE!!!)
2 Peter 2:20,21




Cease, my son, to hear the instruction
that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
[/b]Proverbs 19:27

There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!





If the lady called Jezebel was never at a time a true believer as one here claims what should be said about Demas, that he never believed?

Consider:
24 Marcus, Aristarchus, [size=14pt]Demas... my fellow labourers[/size]. Philemon 1:24

Afterwards:

[b]for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,
2 Timothy 4:10a

Once a fellow-labourer with no less than Paul but later backslid and became an enemy of God! Why? he loved the world and Bible plainly says:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4

Now, did Demas retain his salvation?

You are still playing ignorant with the story of demas!

CLEAR STUDY OF DEMAS' CASE, below:

2tim 4:10;"For Demas hath FORSAKEN ME, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia."

Demas was undeniably, a christian and a good labourer. How did demas become a christian? He became a believer through his faith alone in christ. He heard the gospel and simply BELIEVED(faith alone), even though he wasn't 100% perfect in good works, his faith was counted for righteousness. That was the basis on which he started his christian life.

Note: paul was referring to himself, when he said "ME". But, if he forsook paul, then there is no doubt to believe that he forsook God as well for the same reason.

Now, the above verse stated that Demas FORSOOK God(by forsaking paul), because he loved the world. The bible never said that God forsook him.

GOD DOESN'T FORSAKE US, EVEN WHEN WE SIN!!! If he forsook his son for our sins at the cross ON OUR BEHALF, it is a clear injustice to forsake us because of the sins he forsook christ for.

God is a God of Justice he said that he shall not imput our sins on us any longer because he imputed it on christ ON OUR BEHALF. Did God do that to promote sin? NOOO! But, so that we can be free from sin, it's penalty, guilt and condemnation.


So, the verse I quoted up there says that Demas FORSOOK God.

The greek word for "FORSAKE"
Original Word: ἐγκαταλείπω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: egkataleipó
Phonetic Spelling: (eng-kat-al-i'-po)
Short Definition: I abandon, desert

However, through the above meaning of forsake means that Demas wilfully REJECTED, DESERTED and ABANDONED God!

He accepted God through faith alone and as well he rejected, deserted and abandoned God through unbelieving the Gospel which he was saved by through faith alone. Just for the sake of the things of this world.

We don't abandon what we accepted through faith alone by the bad work we did, but by rejecting the faith that saved us, hence, falling into UNBELIEF.

In addition, Demas lost his salvation not because he committed sin, but because he wilfully rejected, abandoned, deserted and LEFT God. And why did he leave God? He loved the things of this world, and that made him to REJECT God through his unbelief, just EXACTLY like many ex-christian atheists out there.

In conclusion, Demas lost it through UNBELIEF(rejecting the faith).

petra1:


Salvation was wrought only in the spirit . The soul salvation is progressive . The body salvation will be the end result in immortality . For now the body is unsaved . It's still mortal . The salvation of the body is glorification and immortality

Of all I have been saying, this is the sum:
the salvation that God gives when we put our faith in Christ is that which also leads to our glorification and needs no input from us.

5solas:

Of all I have been saying, this is the sum:
the salvation that God gives when we put our faith in Christ is that which also leads to our glorification and needs no input from us.

PERIOD!!!!!!!!

MuttleyLaff:
I dont follow, you quoted promise10
but then said: How someone can use this verse to support lose of salvation as MuttleyLaff beats your imagination.

I dont seem to understand why or what MuttleyLaff has done wrong

Very sorry, I was to quote your post below but got distracted by the following post of Promise10 who quoted the same verse as you did. In my opinion, he used the verse to better purpose.

MuttleyLaff:
Yes, there is such thing as eternal security.
It is also known as eternal life

It a crowning moment, and happens at the end or completion of the following:
#1 saved,
#2 being saved and
#3 hope to be saved


#1 saved as in:
For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation
- 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don't need to hope for it.
- Romans 8:24 NLT

that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
- Ephesians 2:5 NLT

#2 being saved as in:
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.
- 2 Corinthians 2:15 NLT

and
#3 hope to be saved as in:
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life
- Romans 5:9-10

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
- Philippians 2:12 KJV

Sin means missing the mark. Everyone, believers inclusive, now and/or then do miss the mark hence can and/or do sin

Yes, though saved, if such, without safely reaching the shore or harbor, due to sea sickness etcetera, jumps off a ship whilst being saved, then such would lose salvation, lose being saved and dash away any hope to be saved once reaching the shore or harbor

Yes particularly when it comes to missing the mark with the Holy Spirit
(i.e. sinning against the Holy Spirit)
28“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin''
- Mark 3:28-29

31Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
- Matthew 12:31-32

This depends on how born again is used in this question.
If used, as a verb, then possibly and potentially more than one time
If it is used, as an adjective, in a similar way as Jesus did, then all it takes is one time only

promise10:


I hope that what you meant by the word "..being saved...and will be saved" is not that we are not saved once and for all?

@Image123, we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

And that "..WILL BE saved" is NOT what happens in our life time but what happens on the JUDGEMENT DAY.

Rom 5:9;"9 Much more then, BEING NOW SAVED(justified) by his blood, we shall be SHALL BE SAVED from WRATH through him."

The wrath of God in that context is NOT what happens today, but the wrath of God is on the judgement day that's why we SHALL BE saved from it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED NOW BY HIS BLOOD.

Today, the wrath of God is NOT now, but shall come on the judgement day. So, if today is not the day of wrath, what is today? 2cor 6:2 answers that!

2cor 6:2;"2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; BEHOLD, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.).

Today is not the day of wrath, but the DAY OF SALVATION. God cannot be saving and destroying at the same time. No way!

My take is that Romans 5:9,10 are the verses you go to, to prove Eternal Security and not otherwise.

5solas:
Very sorry, I was to quote your post below but got distracted by the following post of Promise10 who quoted the same verse as you did. In my opinion, he used the verse to better purpose.

My take is that Romans 5:9,10 are the verses you go to, to prove Eternal Security and not otherwise.

On this subject matter, I can see from both promise10's and my quotes, that promise10 and I with my diagram, my bit of narrative backed with some scriptures, are totally saying the same thing

Dare I say, the quotes unwittedly complement each other.

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL
MuttleyLaff says with #1: Whilst, swimming and about drowning at sea, boat comes to save, by pulling drowning swimmer out from the ocean of life, after which when the saved swimmer is onboard, boat will head to shore for safety

For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation
- 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
- Ephesians 2:5 NLT

promise10 says: And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.
MuttleyLaff says with #2: The swimmer is first saved when swimmer came on board the ship.
As long as the swimmer stays on the boat, away from the impending destructruction and danger at sea,
the swimmer, whilst the boat heads for safety at shore, remains saved, is kept saved and is being saved from perishing

Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.
- 2 Corinthians 2:15 NLT

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
MuttleyLaff says with #3: If the saved swimmer remains and/or stays on board the boat, up to when boat reaches the shore, then saved swimmer has made shore and is saved from the dangers and wrath to visited at sea

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life
- Romans 5:9-10

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
- Philippians 2:12 KJV

MuttleyLaff:
On this subject matter, I can see from both promise10's and my quotes, that promise10 and I with my diagram, my bit of narrative backed with some scriptures, are totally saying the same thing

Dare I say, the quotes unwittedly complement each other.

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL
MuttleyLaff says with #1: Whilst, swimming and about drowning at sea, boat comes to save, by pulling drowning swimmer out from the ocean of life, after which when the saved swimmer is onboard, boat will head to shore for safety

For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation
- 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
- Ephesians 2:5 NLT

promise10 says: And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.
MuttleyLaff says with #2: The swimmer is first saved when swimmer came on board the ship.
As long as the swimmer stays on the boat, away from the impending destructruction and danger at sea,
the swimmer, whilst the boat heads for safety at shore, remains saved, is kept saved and is being saved from perishing

Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.
- 2 Corinthians 2:15 NLT

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
MuttleyLaff says with #3: If the saved swimmer remains and/or stays on board the boat, up to when boat reaches the shore, then saved swimmer has made shore and is saved from the dangers and wrath to visited at sea

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life
- Romans 5:9-10

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
- Philippians 2:12 KJV

One of the problems with this post is that you think a man ultimately saves himself!
God does! And God keeps! It is God's responsibility to keep.
John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Work out your salvation does not mean, 'save yourselves'!

[size=15pt]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,he shall ask, and[/size][size=16pt] he shall give him life[/b]for them that sin not unto death[/size]. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it
1 John 5:16
[/size]
[b][size=15pt]He was a brother and had life, he sinned (not the unpardonable sin) and needs someone's intercession that he may have LIFE (2 Timothy 2:25,26; 2 Corinth 10:4-6 refers)again.(meaning he lost it else why ask for him to have what he had already?).
[/size]


Also see:
19 [size=16pt]Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 5:19,20
[/size]
[size=15pt]A brother erred and needed to be converted again! In fact vs 20 calls him a sinner headed to perdition!

In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses this fact has been established!
[/size]

INTERESTINGLY, NEITHER JAMES NOR JOHN CLAIMS THE ERRING BROTHER OPENLY RENOUNCED JESUS HENCE BECOMING SINNERS IN NEED OF LIFE LIKE SOME HAVE CLAIMED HERE!!!RATHER THEY ......SINNED!


P.S. Promise10, do keep your responses short. Those long essays are scarcely read by one who has other things doing.

5solas:

One of the problems with this post is that you think a man ultimately saves himself!
God does! And God keeps! It is God's responsibility to keep

It is either you're looking for an agument
or that you're a mind reader to know what I think

In that post, did the man arrive at shore not depending on another and did he arrive a shore without outside help right to the end?

5solas:
John 6

What is with this? What's with John 6?

5solas:
Work out your salvation does not mean, 'save yourselves'!

and where have you found me posting ''Work out your salvation'' means ''save yourselves''?
Do the drowning at sea save themselves?

petra1:

Is there such thing as eternal security
What is eternal security

There is such a thing as Eternal Security. It is the belief that a believer in Christ can never lose salvation. This belief goes by several other names - Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS), Perseverance of the Saints and[b] Calvinism[/b].
They all aim at giving the entire glory of salvation to God and assurance of salvation to believers as does the Bible.

Can a christian sin

Yes!
When a christian sins, fellowship with God is broken and when they ask for forgiveness, it is restored.
It is important to state here that the sin does not affect their justification/reconciliation/having being put right with God.
Tgis fact should be manifest from the simple fact that when we ask for forgiveness, we are not asking to be re-justified or born again again.

Can a christian lose salvation

No.
This is obvious from my explanation above. This is because salvation is of faith ALONE without the deeds of the law/commandments or works (Rom. 3:19-31,Rom. 4; Rom.5:1; Eph. 2:1-8;Titus 3:3-7;2 Tim 1:9 e.t.c

Can a christian lose salvation by committing a sin.

No. As explained above.

How many times can a man be born again.

Once.

5solas:

One of the problems with this post is that you think a man ultimately saves himself!
God does! And God keeps! It is God's responsibility to keep.
John 6



Work out your salvation does not mean, 'save yourselves'!

Only if their nairaland high priest(scholar2800) will agree with you

5solas:

There is such a thing as Eternal Security. It is the belief that a believer in Christ can never lose salvation. This belief goes by several other names - Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS), Perseverance of the Saints and[b] Calvinism[/b].
They all aim at giving the entire glory of salvation to God and assurance of salvation to believers as does the Bible.

Whether Eternal Security is a theological doctrine or not, the reality is that there is eternal life, where one is eternally saved
- #1 saved, #2 being saved and #3 hope to be kept saved for this eternal life

5solas:
Yes!
When a christian sins, fellowship with God is broken and when they ask for forgiveness, it is restored.
It is important to state here that the sin does not affect their justification/reconciliation/having being put right with God.
Tgis fact should be manifest from the simple fact that when we ask for forgiveness, we are not asking to be re-justified or born again again

Good
but hang on, please are you equating re-justified or justification with born again?

5solas:
No.
This is obvious from my explanation above. This is because salvation is of faith ALONE without the deeds of the law/commandments or works (Rom. 3:19-31,Rom. 4; Rom.5:1; Eph. 2:1-8;Titus 3:3-7;2 Tim 1:9 e.t.c

In light of your above response, so how do Adam & Eve, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira fare or stand in all this

5solas:
No. As explained above

Many christian will be faced with ''I did not know you''
Notice it isnt saying ''I used to know you''
but it is saying upon all the ''good'' work, all the ''miracles'', all the ''tongue speaking'' etcetera ''I did not know you''

A lot of christians are going to have a severe shock when confronted with the ''I did not know you'' truth of the situation

5solas:
Once

Before answering, in a simplest and true manner, define and explain born again, exactly as Jesus meant it

promise10:
Only if their nairaland high priest(scholar2800) will agree with you

Stick to the subject matter, please let's all behave.
There is no need to go personalised or make the thread personal with open and direct name calling like this

ROM 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus[b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit[/b]
@ bold there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.This proves the false teaching of once saved already saved a lie from hell.
There is condemnation to those in Christ who are walking after the flesh.
When a christian sins, it means he is walking after the flesh which means he is in danger of condemnation.
You are saved only when you abide in Christ ( walks in the spirit) John 15:4)
When you are saved your only duty is to continue in walking in the spirit of holiness and righteousness which you received from Christ else you will be rejected as one having a spotted garment.
Remember the parable of the man who held a wedding ceremony for his son
There were people who didn't honor his invitations
And there was a man who accepted him as king and honored his invitation but had not the right wedding garment.
The garment that you receive from Christ you must do well to maintain it through the holy spirit in you. [b]You must walk after the Spirit of christ! [/b]To remain a saved person!
The philosophy that you are still saved regardless of you committing sins is a pure lie

ROM 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus[b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit[/b]
@ bold there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This proves the false teaching of once saved already saved a lie from hell.
There is condemnation to those in Christ who are walking after the flesh.
When a christian sins, it means he is walking after the flesh which means he is in danger of condemnation.
You are saved only when you abide in Christ ( walks in the spirit) John 15:4)
When you are saved your only duty is to continue in walking in the spirit of holiness and righteousness which you received from Christ else you will be rejected as one having a spotted garment.
Remember the parable of the man who held a wedding ceremony for his son.
There were people who didn't honor his invitations
And there was a man who accepted him as king and honored his invitation but had not the right wedding garment.
The garment that you receive from Christ you must do well to maintain it through the holy spirit in you. [b]You must walk after the Spirit of christ! [/b]To remain a saved person!
The philosophy that you are still saved regardless of you committing sins is a pure lie

petra1:

Is there such thing as eternal security
What is eternal security

There is such a thing as Eternal Security. It is the belief that a believer in Christ can never lose salvation. This belief goes by several other names - Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS), Perseverance of the Saints and Calvinism.
They all aim at giving the entire glory of salvation to God and assurance of salvation to believers as does the Bible.

Can a christian sin

Yes!
When a christian sins, fellowship with God is broken and when they ask for forgiveness, it is restored.
It is important to state here that the sin does not affect their justification/reconciliation/having being put right with God.
Tgis fact should be manifest from the simple fact that when we ask for forgiveness, we are not asking to be re-justified or born again again.

Can a christian lose salvation

No.
This is obvious from my explanation above. This is because salvation is of faith ALONE without the deeds of the law/commandments or works (Rom. 3:19-31,Rom. 4; Rom.5:1; Eph. 2:1-8;Titus 3:3-7;2 Tim 1:9 e.t.c)

Can a christian lose salvation by committing a sin.

No. As explained above.

How many times can a man be born again.

Once.
Eternal Security is true because:
i. faith ALONE saves
ii. works are products of faith and do not justify (they are effects of salvation and not the cause,faith in Christ being the cause)
iii.the keeping of the law/commandments do not save
iv.salvation was made to be of faith so that it might be by grace so that all who have this faith would be saved whether they keep the law/commandments or not (Rom. 4:16)
v. it is of God , not of man (Phil.1:29;1 Cor.1:30;John 6:37,39,40,44,63;Matt.11:25-27 e.t.c)
vi.the perfect righteousness is inputed to us and God sees us as holy , unblameable and unreprovable though in ourselves we are sinful and undeserving (2 Cor.5:21,Phil. 3:8,9;Rom.5:17-19;Rom.10;Jude 24; e.t.c)
vii.the Holy Spirit does not leave the believer(Eph. 1:13,14;Eph.4:30;John 14:16,17,26;John 15:26;John 16:13-15; e.t.c)
viii. those who believe are those who God in His mercy chose for salvation before the foundation of the world before they had done anything good or bad. They are in Scripture referred to as the elects.(Matt.24:22,24,31;Rom.9:8-13,e.t.c)

promise10:

Only if their nairaland high priest(scholar2800) will agree with you

MuttleyLaff:
It is either you're looking for an agument
or that you're a mind reader to know what I think

In that post, did the man arrive at shore not depending on another and did he arrive a shore without outside help right to the end?

You assert that he needs outside help to get to the shore and yet he needs to stay in the boat.If he stays in the boat, he is saved. If he does not, he is not saved. So from this scenario, who does the saving? Considering that despite the efforts of the other, his salvation or damnation depends on his staying on the boat..

MuttleyLaff:
What is with this? What's with John 6?

This 'other'- God- keeps the believer.
John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

MuttleyLaff:
and where have you found me posting ''Work out your salvation'' means ''save yourselves''?
Do the drowning at sea save themselves?

I never said you did, did I?
However you quoted that verse and I didn't know what it was for and I needed an explanation for it.

solite3:
ROM 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus[b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit[/b]
@ bold there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This proves the false teaching of once saved already saved a lie from hell.
There is condemnation to those in Christ who are walking after the flesh.
When a christian sins, it means he is walking after the flesh which means he is in danger of condemnation.
You are saved only when you abide in Christ ( walks in the spirit) John 15:4)
When you are saved your only duty is to continue in walking in the spirit of holiness and righteousness which you received from Christ else you will be rejected as one having a spotted garment.
Remember the parable of the man who held a wedding ceremony for his son.
There were people who didn't honor his invitations
And there was a man who accepted him as king and honored his invitation but had not the right wedding garment.
The garment that you receive from Christ you must do well to maintain it through the holy spirit in you. [b]You must walk after the Spirit of christ! [/b]To remain a saved person!
The philosophy that you are still saved regardless of you committing sins is a pure lie

You amaze me!
This is the last chapter, in the Bible, anyone arguing that salvation can be lost should go to!
Verse one of this chapter is describing what they do, having been saved! Not what they do to be saved!

MuttleyLaff:
Whether Eternal Security is a theological doctrine or not, the reality is that there is eternal life, where one is eternally saved
- #1 saved, #2 being saved and #3 hope to be kept saved for this eternal life

In your opinion then, is ''#2 being saved'' and ''#3 hope to be kept saved'' by grace?

MuttleyLaff:

Good
but hang on, please are you equating re-justified or justification with born again?

I am equating justification with being born again. I am saying there is no re-justification.

MuttleyLaff:

In light of your above response, so how do Adam & Eve, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira fare or stand in all this

We are talking of Christ and what His death did! How do Adam and Eve fit in ?
Ananias and Sapphira, if they were believers (I think they were) , were saved.

MuttleyLaff:

Many christian will be faced with ''I did not know you''
Notice it isnt saying ''I used to know you''
but it is saying upon all the ''good'' work, all the ''miracles'', all the ''tongue speaking'' etcetera ''I did not know you''

I hope you will notice what you are saying. Christ is saying, I NEVER knew you! It applies to thoes who were never in the faith.

MuttleyLaff:
A lot of christians are going to have a severe shock when confronted with the ''I did not know you'' truth of the situation

Before answering, in a simplest and true manner, define and explain born again, exactly as Jesus meant it

It means for me to realise that I am a sinner and unable to save myself and to believe that Christ gave His life for my sin and for me to accept him as my saviour/place my hope on going to heaven on this fact.

solite3:

Truly there is eternal security in Christ only when we abide in him.
When a man becomes bornagain he has a new nature but also his old nature is still there. He can now choose to walk in the spirit or in the flesh. As long as he walks in the spirit he is eternally secure but if he walks in the flesh he will die there is no eternal security there even if he shout Jesus finished work from now till tomorrow it won't help him until he repents and obey the spirit of Christ.
Anytime we sin it means we are walking in the flesh and if we die like that or judgement met us in that state, we will be judged like the rest of the world.
God has played his part by giving us a new nature but you av to play your part by continue in that or else ...you will fall short of his grace
Pedlars of false gospel teaches that Christians who walk in the flesh in as much as they were saved are still saved that's a satanic lie Ezekiel said if a man was righteous before and he stopped being righteous, God will not remember his righteousness but only his present evil. same thing for a wicked man
Jesus didn't die for you to continue in sin but for you to reflect his righteousness.

REMEMBER
ANY FAITH THAT CANNOT KEEP YOU FROM COMMITTING SIN CANNOT SAVE YOU FROM HELL FIRE!!!

in addition bro Jesus said in the gospels if a person sins against you annd comes back to say sorry, we should forgive him no matter how may times he comes.I think this illustration rightly also depicts the forgiving nature of Christ.No matter how many times a sinner comes to Christ if he is born again, he is forgiven.There is no permanent eternal security on earth, however whenn we get to heaven, we will be eternally secured.As scholars like Pastor W.F Kumuyi rightly wrote i his book, 'you must be saved', he supports conditional eternal security as against the teaching of Carlvin which supports unconditional eternal security in other words he is saying, you are secured if you keep on conditionally depending on Christ and the salvation he offers as against Carlvin's unconditional eternal security which says no matter whatever you do once you are saved, you are saved unconditionally.

5solas:

You amaze me!
This is the last chapter, in the Bible, anyone arguing that salvation can be lost should go to!
Verse one of this chapter is describing what they do, having been saved! Not what they do to be saved!

what they do having being saved abi? I m not talking about what you do to be saved but after you are saved. The philosophy that says when you are saved then you cannot lose it even if you walk after the flesh is a big lie which romans has denounced. Salvation is free but there is a condition which is continue in the spirit.
If you sin as a christian kindly humble and admit your sins like david before the Lord and ask for his forgiveness.
This world is a test place nothing is parmanet!

alolatee:



in addition bro Jesus said in the gospels if a person sins against you annd comes back to say sorry, we should forgive him no matter how may times he comes.I think this illustration rightly also depicts the forgiving nature of Christ.No matter how many times a sinner comes to Christ if he is born again, he is forgiven.There is no permanent eternal security on earth, however whenn we get to heaven, we will be eternally secured.As scholars like Pastor W.F Kumuyi rightly wrote i his book, 'you must be saved', he supports conditional eternal security as against the teaching of Carlvin which supports unconditional eternal security in other words he is saying, you are secured if you keep on conditionally depending on Christ and the salvation he offers as against Carlvin's unconditional eternal security which says no matter whatever you do once you are saved, you are saved unconditionally.

you are very right! Some babes in Christ has not realise Satan's tricks. There is nothing like once saved already saved! It is those that stands to the end without defiling their garment that will be saved. Salvation is like a race, it is one thing to start but another thing to finish.
Our work and battle is to keep garment spotless from the flesh only then shall we make it to heaven.

MuttleyLaff:
Whether Eternal Security is a theological doctrine or not, the reality is that there is eternal life, where one is eternally saved
- #1 saved, #2 being saved and #3 hope to be kept saved for this eternal life

Good
but hang on, please are you equating re-justified or justification with born again?

In light of your above response, so how do Adam & Eve, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira fare or stand in all this

Many christian will be faced with ''I did not know you''
Notice it isnt saying ''I used to know you''
but it is saying upon all the ''good'' work, all the ''miracles'', all the ''tongue speaking'' etcetera ''I did not know you''

A lot of christians are going to have a severe shock when confronted with the ''I did not know you'' truth of the situation

Before answering, in a simplest and true manner, define and explain born again, exactly as Jesus meant it

THERE IS NOTHING LIKE RE-JUSTIFICATION, we are ETERNALLY JUSTIFIED.

Justification doesn't happen ONLY when we sin, but through our whole life time, the blood of Jesus JUSTIFIES US, irrespective of whether we do good or bad.

Mr man, the bible is VERY CLEAR on the case of justification by faith ALONE through FREE GRACE alone.

Adam and eve fell because of SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS through which they disobeyed!

God made them in his OWN image, but yet they were THINKING that they have to do some WORKS in order to be like God EVEN WHEN THEY WERE ALREADY LIKE GOD. This is the exact reason why many christians fall from grace! God has given them HIS PERFECT PERSONAL RIGHTEOUSNESS, yet they are still relying on their DEAD WORKS and FILTHY RAGS as what keeps them righteous. It is a pity!!!!

In the case of Judas, he wasn't a good follower AT HEART, he was just there for his pocket and for his selfish interest. That Judas betrayed Jesus was NEVER a problem, because it was part of God's plan for the salvation of mankind. But the problem was that he wasn't following Jesus for the sake of salvation, rather for a selfish interest.

MuttleyLaff:
Whether Eternal Security is a theological doctrine or not, the reality is that there is eternal life, where one is eternally saved
- #1 saved, #2 being saved and #3 hope to be kept saved for this eternal life

Good
but hang on, please are you equating re-justified or justification with born again?

In light of your above response, so how do Adam & Eve, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira fare or stand in all this

Many christian will be faced with ''I did not know you''
Notice it isnt saying ''I used to know you''
but it is saying upon all the ''good'' work, all the ''miracles'', all the ''tongue speaking'' etcetera ''I did not know you''

A lot of christians are going to have a severe shock when confronted with the ''I did not know you'' truth of the situation

Before answering, in a simplest and true manner, define and explain born again, exactly as Jesus meant it

Ananias and sapphira
Acts 5:3;"3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath SATAN FILLED YOUR HEART TO LIE TO THE HOLYGHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
Vs 9;"9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to TEMPT the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."


The above verses clearly shows that anainas and saphira were not believers but HYPOCRITES. For peter to say this; "..SATAN FILLED YOUR HEART TO LIE TO THE HOLYGHOST...." simply shows that ananias and saphira weren't believers, but satanic agents who devil wanted to use to MOCK and TEMPT THE HOLYGHOST. And they eventually met the holyghost on a bad and dangerous day!

And mind you, they weren't killed by God, but the devil did under the influence of the holyghost.

GOD DOESN'T KILL, THE DEVIL DOES!!!

If God kills, then what is the work of the devil? Jesus clearly told us what the work of God is and that of the devil!

John 10:10;"10 The thief(DEVIL) cometh not, but for to steal, and to KILL, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"

The devil only KILLS, DESTROYS and STEAL, but God gives eternal life, salvation which is an abundant life.

So, they were of the devil, at the end of the day, the devil robbed, stole and KILLED them.

It is not the mind of God that ANY MAN, including ananias and saphira, will perish, but that all will come to repentance.

2peter 3:9;"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance."

THAT'S THE WILL OF GOD!

promise10:


Ananias and sapphira
Acts 5:3;"3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath SATAN FILLED YOUR HEART TO LIE TO THE HOLYGHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
Vs 9;"9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to TEMPT the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."


The above verses clearly shows that anainas and saphira were not believers but HYPOCRITES. For peter to say this; "..SATAN FILLED YOUR HEART TO LIE TO THE HOLYGHOST...." simply shows that ananias and saphira weren't believers, but satanic agents who devil wanted to use to MOCK and TEMPT THE HOLYGHOST. And they eventually met the holyghost on a bad and dangerous day!

And mind you, they weren't killed by God, but the devil did under the influence of the holyghost.

GOD DOESN'T KILL, THE DEVIL DOES!!!

If God kills, then what is the work of the devil? Jesus clearly told us what the work of God is and that of the devil!

John 10:10;"10 The thief(DEVIL) cometh not, but for to steal, and to KILL, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"

The devil only KILLS, DESTROYS and STEAL, but God gives eternal life, salvation which is an abundant life.

So, they were of the devil, at the end of the day, the devil robbed, stole and KILLED them.

It is not the mind of God that ANY MAN, including ananias and saphira, will perish, but that all will come to repentance.

2peter 3:9;"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance."

THAT'S THE WILL OF GOD!

warris this one even saying... you are twisting scriptures to satisfy you belly.
but like they often say, continue.

solite3:
ROM 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus[b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit[/b]
@ bold there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.This proves the false teaching of once saved already saved a lie from hell.
There is condemnation to those in Christ who are walking after the flesh.
When a christian sins, it means he is walking after the flesh which means he is in danger of condemnation.
You are saved only when you abide in Christ ( walks in the spirit) John 15:4)
When you are saved your only duty is to continue in walking in the spirit of holiness and righteousness which you received from Christ else you will be rejected as one having a spotted garment.
Remember the parable of the man who held a wedding ceremony for his son
There were people who didn't honor his invitations
And there was a man who accepted him as king and honored his invitation but had not the right wedding garment.
The garment that you receive from Christ you must do well to maintain it through the holy spirit in you. [b]You must walk after the Spirit of christ! [/b]To remain a saved person!
The philosophy that you are still saved regardless of you committing sins is a pure lie

I CANNOT describe how antichristic you are towards the finished work of christ with words! It is really a shame to write what you wrote! So senseless!!!

You just made me SO angry, by TOTALLY DEVALUEING the finished work of christ!!!!

You are just a victim of CROSS-LESS SALVATION GOSPEL! BUT, I tell you, YOUR DEVILISH plan of victimising people with you CROSs-LESS Gospel WILL NEVER WORK HERE. IT IS ENTIRELY FRUSTRATED!!!!

First of all, you blindly and ignorantly quotes rom8:1 which you don't even understand.

But, I will do that verse a justice by reading it in many versions, only if you can learn.

ROMAN 8:1

ASV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

AMP
Therefore there is now no condemnation [NO GUILTY NO VERDICT, NO PUNISHMENT] for those who are in
Christ Jesus [who BELIEVE in Him as personal Lord and Savior].



CJB
Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are IN UNION(through faith alone) with the Messiah Yeshua.

CEV
If you BELONG to Christ Jesus, you WON'T be punished.


ERV
So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus IS NOT JUDGED GUILTY.



EXB
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not ·judged guilty [condemned; PUNISHED FOR THEIR SINS].

GW
So those who are believers in Christ Jesus can NO LONGER BE CONDEMNED.



ISV
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.



TLB
So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.

NCV
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.


NIRV
Those who belong to Christ Jesus are NO LONGER UNDER GOD'S JUDGEMENT

NLV
Now, because of this, those who
belong to Christ will NOT SUFFER the
punishment of sin.


I am not yet done, but just to keep things short.

sonofthunder:

warris this one even saying... you are twisting scriptures to satisfy you belly.
but like they often say, continue.

Is it not shameful that you read my post, which I proposed with real scriptures, but only replied with this response.

You said that I am twisting the scriptures to suit me? I won't take that serious until you DISPROVE me with BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE.

Until then, I will take you serious!

5solas:

In your opinion then, is ''#2 being saved'' and ''#3 hope to be kept saved'' by grace?

I am equating justification with being born again. I am saying there is no re-justification.


We are talking of Christ and what His death did! How do Adam and Eve fit in ?
Ananias and Sapphira, if they were believers (I think they were) , were saved.



I hope you will notice what you are saying. Christ is saying, I NEVER knew you! It applies to thoes who were never in the faith.



It means for me to realise that I am a sinner and unable to save myself and to believe that Christ gave His life for my sin and for me to accept him as my saviour/place my hope on going to heaven on this fact.

NICE POST!!!

5solas:

In your opinion then, is ''#2 being saved'' and ''#3 hope to be kept saved'' by grace?

I am equating justification with being born again. I am saying there is no re-justification.


We are talking of Christ and what His death did! How do Adam and Eve fit in ?
Ananias and Sapphira, if they were believers (I think they were) , were saved.



I hope you will notice what you are saying. Christ is saying, I NEVER knew you! It applies to thoes who were never in the faith.



It means for me to realise that I am a sinner and unable to save myself and to believe that Christ gave His life for my sin and for me to accept him as my saviour/place my hope on going to heaven on this fact.

PERIOD!!!!!

I wonder how the devil has made this real gospel so difficult for people to believe and be saved!!

promise10:

I CANNOT describe how antichristic you are towards the finished work of christ with words! It is really a shame to write what you wrote! So senseless!!!

You just made me SO angry, by TOTALLY DEVALUEING the finished work of christ!!!!

You are just a victim of CROSS-LESS SALVATION GOSPEL! BUT, I tell you, YOUR DEVILISH plan of victimising people with you CROSs-LESS Gospel WILL NEVER WORK HERE. IT IS ENTIRELY FRUSTRATED!!!!

First of all, you blindly and ignorantly quotes rom8:1 which you don't even understand.

But, I will do that verse a justice by reading it in many versions, only if you can learn.

ROMAN 8:1

ASV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

AMP
Therefore there is now no condemnation [NO GUILTY NO VERDICT, NO PUNISHMENT] for those who are in
Christ Jesus [who BELIEVE in Him as personal Lord and Savior].



CJB
Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are IN UNION(through faith alone) with the Messiah Yeshua.

CEV
If you BELONG to Christ Jesus, you WON'T be punished.


ERV
So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus IS NOT JUDGED GUILTY.



EXB
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not ·judged guilty [condemned; PUNISHED FOR THEIR SINS].

GW
So those who are believers in Christ Jesus can NO LONGER BE CONDEMNED.



ISV
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.



TLB
So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.

NCV
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.


NIRV
Those who belong to Christ Jesus are NO LONGER UNDER GOD'S JUDGEMENT

NLV
Now, because of this, those who
belong to Christ will NOT SUFFER the
punishment of sin.


I am not yet done, but just to keep things short.

I believe he meant well,let's be patient in our teaching.
Nice one on Romans 8:1.
Romans is surely not a book to go, to prove salvation can be lost .

solite3:
what they do having being saved abi? I m not talking about what you do to be saved but after you are saved.

I thank God for the bolded!
I think it is the reason for most of the opposition to eternal security.
In trying to show salvation can be lost, why is your focus on that which is done AFTER salvation, when it is NOT what saves, since it (what is done AFTER salvation) must necessarily be the EFFECT of salvation and NOT the CAUSE?

solite3:
The philosophy that says when you are saved then you cannot lose it even if you walk after the flesh is a big lie which romans has denounced.

Flowing from your flawed reasoning above,it is clear your conclusion must necessarily be wrong.

solite3:

Salvation is free but there is a condition which is continue in the spirit.

In short, your submission should be we are not yet saved since we still have some things to do to be saved or perfect our salvation.

solite3:
If you sin as a christian kindly humble and admit your sins like david before the Lord and ask for his forgiveness.

This is correct but nothing to the purpose since it is what we need to do, AFTER salvation!

solite3:
This world is a test place nothing is parmanet!

Surely not a pre-qualification test for salvation .

alolatee:



in addition bro Jesus said in the gospels if a person sins against you annd comes back to say sorry, we should forgive him no matter how may times he comes.I think this illustration rightly also depicts the forgiving nature of Christ.No matter how many times a sinner comes to Christ if he is born again, he is forgiven.There is no permanent eternal security on earth, however whenn we get to heaven, we will be eternally secured.As scholars like Pastor W.F Kumuyi rightly wrote i his book, 'you must be saved', he supports conditional eternal security as against the teaching of Carlvin which supports unconditional eternal security in other words he is saying, you are secured if you keep on conditionally depending on Christ and the salvation he offers as against Carlvin's unconditional eternal security which says no matter whatever you do once you are saved, you are saved unconditionally.

You surely do not know the opinion of the reformers on this matter, so I will bear with you.