"There are no atheists in foxholes"

You've probably heard it many times over

For the sake of those that don't know what a foxhole is

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That is what a foxhole looks like

Its simply defined as a Defensive Fighting Position

The picture above is just an external view of it

Below is the internal view

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Its dug into the ground to provide protection from enemy fire

Such holes are usually dug in the soldier's territory, so its only (usually) used when the enemy attacks your territory, it is usually a last layer of protection and means certain death when the enemy breaches the hole area, you can't call for air strike either because the explosives that would be sent by the aircrafts can kill soldiers in foxholes

The saying "There are no atheists in foxhole" therefore means when the enemy attacks and you have to defend your forte from a hole in the ground, you start praying to a higher power to help you out of the situation you find yourself because raising your head out of the hole at the wrong time would lead to your head being blown away!!

How true therefore is this saying?

It would be broken down in further posts

Good one.

Let's dismantle the literal saying first

THERE ARE MANY ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES

You heard that right

There are many such atheists in foxholes

certain cliché sounds very true on the surface but deep thought shows its bullsheeet!!

The fact that there are atheists at the warfront itself should tell you something, in the warfront, 3 possibilities exist

1. Kill and survive
2. Kill and be killed
3. Be killed

As we can see, death can come to ANY soldier at any time in the warfront; if an atheist can be at the warfront, there can be atheist in foxholes

In the United States of America for instance, there are actually more atheists in the military than in the general population This right here is the source of that information

Why should any atheist join the military in the first instance? Why should an atheist go to war? Shouldn't they be under the fluorescent light typing away at keyboards? Shouldn't they be anywhere but the warfront? Since their chances of dying in battlefields is far higher than cubicles

Granted, your chances of survival is a little higher than when you're in a foxhole but you get the idea

in the foxhole

So, you and your soldiers have fought gallantly, given almost all you've got but the enemy has the upper hand, they've returned more fire than you gave them, they've killed more than you and your fellow soldiers killed and you have no choice than to retreat

As you scurry back, the enemy troops, realising their advantage gives the chase and after a few kilometers, you're at your base, throughout this retreat, bullets whizz past your ears, you hear soldiers cry out in pain from being hit by the enemy bullets, your heart racing, blood pumping fast, adrenaline filling your whole body

Finally, you see the foxhole you dug previously, you quickly jump in and other soldiers follow suit

Enemy still giving chase and you need to attack from a very defensive position, all is almost lost, there's a huge chance you won't make it out of the hole alive

At that point, theist believes that all atheists would pray to a god because death is very near and the chances of survival is very small

Why the literal saying is bullsheeet:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4265379_z5_jpeg837362911fe6628bbc0f52eeddfda75d

Those are soldiers that have been in a foxhole making it known that they didn't reach out to any imaginary friend when desperation set in


Below is an interesting quote

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Why should a theist dive into a foxhole in the first place? There's a god that would protect you, isn't that what you believe

To some extent it is probably true that people, however misguidedly, use religion as a crutch to get through rough times, but the kind of overnight conversion implied by the aphorism appears unlikely, and is not convincingly documented.
The proportion of atheists in uniform tends to be more compared to that in the general populartion, and there have been many atheist soldiers who have gone through wars without becoming religious. There is even an online registry of proud atheists in foxholes at the Military Association of Atheists and Freehinkers.

In fact, the opposite may be just as true, that foxholes breed atheists. The horrors of war, and the pious platitudes which often attend them, often have the effect of shaking a soldier out of his complacency and cause him to question the wisdom and compassion of a god who allows such things to happen.

Dismantling the metamorphic meaning

let's first pick the Slight metamorphic meaning

what happens when an atheist is part of army that's outnumbered? did such an atheist remain atheist through this ordeal?

Philip K. Paulson was one such atheist
below is his story

This happened to me near a hamlet northwest of Saigon. I, along with five other men, was assigned to night duty at an outpost about a half-mile from company perimeters. We carried only our M-16 rifles, grenades, Claymore mines, and a two-way radio to protect us. That night we were surprised by an assault group of Viet Cong guerrilla fighters. Three dead young American soldiers were silhouetted by the moon's reflections inside our outpost bunker. The radio man sputtered, "Oh, Lord! Lord! Help us!" My response to him was to stop praying. I exclaimed, "To hell with God! You help us! You radio back for mortar and artillery fire support!" Fortunately, he regained his composure and radioed the forward observers for fire support to be directed at our map coordinates. Common sense dictated that staying alive was more important than wasting precious time praying. Consequently, he saved our lives.

as we can see from the above, the atheist was the one that actually ended up indirectly saving himself and his fellow soldiers when he could've simply prayed to a god, any god to save them

Joe Simpson , author of Touching the Void, addresses the issue in the film adaptation of his nearly fatal climb up the Siula Grande mountain. Referring to the moment when he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone, and with a broken leg, he states: "I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife."

the true metamorphic meaning would be dismantled next

Following

Amazing thread hopefulLandlord, thumbs up

it's a nonsensical notion since the bullet do not know a believer from a non-believer it certainly means at that point the believers faith, prayers and piety is useless.

Dismantling The True Metamorphic Meaning

The true metamorphic meaning is that When Sheet hits the fan, all atheist would reach out to a higher power"

When you've been an atheist for a long time and financial/health/psychological/emotional etc problems set in, you'll reach for that higher power that you said you have no proof exists

Granted, there's some truth to the saying, a lot of atheists reach out to religious gathering when bad things starts happening

BUT before we swallow that saying hook line and sinker, we need to consider theists too

This is where it gets interesting; a Christian or Muslim is having health issues that seem not to respond to treatments, they've prayed and fasted to no avail

What usually happens afterwards? That Christian or Muslim is told to try some of our traditional/local gods; its very interesting that most of these so-called "Christians" and "Muslims" would gladly give those gods a "try"; the same gods they've spent their lives bashing, calling " powerless" god, "manmade" gods, "fake" gods

A friend of mine while I was much younger, who was a Christian and always bash all gods except Yahweh went for one such "help" at our local gods, the night before the trip to his village, I asked why he's doing that after spending his life till that moment bashing such gods

What he told me next actually showed how the bible can be used to defend almost anything

He said The Bible said : "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God"

I wouldn't bow to that god we are visiting neither would I worship him, I'll just try to get the solution from it, God can use that god to heal me

Can we therefore generalise based on that? Can we just say all religious people try other gods when sheet hits the fan?

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I've been sick as an atheist, and at no point did I reach out to a god I don't believe in, I'm sure there are many atheists like me out there

The main meaning of the saying, no dying person stays atheist till death

this is gotten from deathbeds of atheists

The great Charles Darwin was said to have regretted how he lived his life and gave his life to Jesus before dying

1915, Elizabeth Cotton declared that, thirty-three years earlier, Charles Darwin himself had revealed to her, on his deathbed, his wish to recant the doctrine of evolution in exchange for Christian salvation. This claim was shown to be false by none other than Darwin’s daughter, Henrietta Litchfield, who was with him at the end. She pointed out that Cotton hadn’t actually visited him during his final days


Christopher Hitchens was said to have given his life to Christ too before dying

Larry Taunton published a book alleging that , an outspoken atheist, had been, during the last years of his life, “teetering on the edge of belief.” Taunton, who claims to have been one of Hitchens’s friends, cites as evidence two conversations he had with Hitchens during car trips on the way to debates about religion and atheism—debates, it must be said, that Hitchens was paid to attend.

Hitchens’s family and actual friends—people who didn’t pay to spend time with him—know that this claim is absurd. Hitchens saw Christianity as little more than a social virus with interesting literary overtones. That view never changed during his final year of life—a period during which Taunton didn’t even meet with him. Hitchens loved to engage in generous intellectual repartee, even with those with whom he unequivocally disagreed. His civility, it seems, has been misinterpreted.

That I would need to be in a dire situation to appreciate "God" shows the major part fear plays in religious conformation and indoctrination.

The mere fact that Christians use that line shows how shallow minded they are. Let their god put a stop cancer worldwide and I will take it seriously. Let is solve poverty and let us see 10 years of no suffering here on earth. Not in a "heaven" that no one is even sure exists. Then it will be taken seriously.

Until then, it will continue to be treated as non existent and even if it exists, we can classify it as incompetent or ambivalent at least.

Well done hopefullandlord

In the end, what such deathbed evangelists don’t recognize is that atheism is not a belief system like Christianity, from which one might defect after hearing some arguments or having a few sombre conversations. It is, instead, simply a rational decision not to accept the existence of God without evidence. As wise thinkers, including Laplace, Hume, Sagan, and Hitchens, have often said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It’s hard to imagine a more extraordinary claim than that some hidden intelligence created a universe of more than a hundred billion galaxies, each containing more than a hundred billion stars, and then waited more than 13.7 billion years until a planet in a remote corner of a single galaxy evolved an atmosphere sufficiently oxygenated to support life, only to then reveal his existence to an assortment of violent tribal groups before disappearing again.


The idea of the deathbed conversion raises another question: even if an atheist were to accept a theistic worldview, why should he choose to adopt Christianity, rather than any of the world’s many other religions?

Evangelical Christians assume, rather presumptuously, that the natural choice is Christianity. Hitchens was unlikely to share that view. As he emphasized in his own writing, no one talks about Hell in the New Testament more than Jesus; the New Testament, he wrote, is worse than the Old. Hitchens described the New Testament as envisioning a “Celestial Dictatorship, a kind of divine North Korea.”

In this regard, the saddest thing about these imagined deathbed conversions is that, even if they were real, they could hardly be seen as victories for Christ. They are stories in which the final pain of a fatal disease, or the fear of imminent death and eternal punishment, is identified as the factor necessary for otherwise rational people to believe in the supernatural.

If mental torture is required to effect a conversion, what does that say about the reliability of the fundamental premises of Christianity to begin with? Evangelicals would be better advised to concentrate on converting the living. Converting the deceased suggests only that they can’t convince those who can argue back. They should let the dead rest in peace.

What I plan to do on my deathbed which shows that many of deathbed conversion may be bullsheeet

So, Hopefullandlord (known as atheist to his family, friends and loved ones) is dying decades from now

He lies on the bed, certain loved ones are there by his side, all are Christians and they don't want me to die an unbeliever

So they call a priest/pastor/deathbed evangelist to attempt to convert me before my death

This person starts preaching to me and I hear the 5000.....th preaching of my life, he keeps telling me that I have nothing to lose from letting Jesus come into my life and save me from hell fire

He keeps going on and on and finally I apparently decide to give my life to Christ

Everyone is relieved, the preacher says, "Say after me, Lord Jesus, come into my life, God, I recognize that I have not lived my life for You up until now. I have been living for myself and that is wrong. I need You in my life; I want You in my life. I acknowledge the completed work of Your Son Jesus Christ in giving His life for me on the cross at Calvary, and I long to receive the forgiveness you have made freely available to me through this sacrifice. Come into my life now, Lord. Take up residence in my heart and be my king, my Lord, and my Savior."

So I'm done and the evangelist says some more words and leaves my bedside

My story might be used across the internet and magazines, "Hopefullandlord Accepted Christ on His Deathbed"

Many preachers might use my name to preach in chruches

What everyone else doesn't know is that I simply gave in in order to die in peace

Those words I repeated after the deathbed evangelist are in fact just that "words"

I wouldn't want my loved ones to feel guilty that they didn't do enough to "save" me from hell fire, so I would lie that I finally accepted Christ again

I believe there would be many atheists like me too, who pretended to accept Christ in order to die peacefully and not be disturbed by some bald headed deluded preacher and loved ones tryna force Jesus down your throat

This shows why deathbed conversions might not be reliable

Nice Thread

a million likes brother... A wonderfully composed intellectual thread.. Well done!

In front of a hungry lion I doubt the Zebra chanells a higher power. Death is part of nature and we should all expect it at some point.

At the point of death will be the true test of an Athiestic view. Athiest who were once Christians may fall into the category of those who may psychologically fall prey to the bullying tactics of Christianity( hell fire).

A thread made by an ex Christian describing the gradual loss of the fear of hell and death may be a good example of someone who has had or is undergoing a mental and emotional reset of the mind. The reality that no higher power is needed for salvation is a big jump to reality.

I personally don't fear death. If it comes while I'm in a fox hole, so be it. It's what I signed up for anyway.

I believe there would be many atheists like me too, who pretended to accept Christ in order to die peacefully and not be disturbed by some bald headed deluded preacher and loved ones tryna force Jesus down your throat. This shows why deathbed conversions might not be reliable

Actually, most deathbed conversion stories are just lies. People literally make up fake stories to glorify God. The "lying for Jesus" phenomenon.

wow! this thread is gold!!

donnffd:
Amazing thread hopefulLandlord, thumbs up

Captain001:
Good one.

DeSepiero:
Well done hopefullandlord

Captain001:
Good one.

thanks my people

Very educative thread btw.

To be an atheist no go easy o,u gotta convince urself frequently that there's no GOD or higher power when deep down u and i know that there is..we feel it.

I'm proud Atheist but this thread is not worth it, total waste of nairaland space and the owner of the site be like " Very educative thread", i tell you what Mr Seun, being atheist doesn't mean we just have to dumbdown believers folks, it's not their fault they believe in fairytales, it's prior to social psychology and the social construct in the society. As atheist, lets enlightening them not mock them over what they don't know and struggling to know, we were once like them. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is us.

aaronson:
I'm proud Atheist but this thread is not worth it, total waste of nairaland space and the owner of the site be like " Very educative thread", i tell you what Mr Seun, being atheist doesn't mean we just have to dumbdown believers folks, it's not their fault they believe in fairytales, it's prior to social psychology and the social construct in the society. As atheist, lets enlightening them not mock them over what they don't know and struggling to know, we were once like them. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is us.

I seriously doubt you read through the whole thread before posting

first off, your point about educating them is valid, but this thread is very educative; just take your time to read through

about mocking; can you do me a favour by pointing out where I "mocked" believers in this thread?

I promise to apologise when you do point it out

HMZi:
To be an atheist no go easy o,u gotta convince urself frequently that there's no GOD or higher power when deep down u and i know that there is.we feel it

Evidence??

mrmrmister:


Evidence??

you and i are his proof,...dnt worry,when that time cums,we'll c who was right.Providing evidence will lead to endless banter of words,which in my opinion leads to no where...

HMZi:
you and i are his proof,...dnt worry,when that time cums,we'll c who was right.Providing evidence will lead to endless banter of words,which in my opinion leads to no where...

Okay
You are "HIS" proof
But I'm very sure I am not
Have a wonderful day.

HMZi:
you and i are his proof,...dnt worry,when that time cums,we'll c who was right.Providing evidence will lead to endless banter of words,which in my opinion leads to no where...

you are proof that your parents did somehard work on their matrimonial bed

mrmrmister:


Evidence??

What evidence are you asking for?

An average atheistic heart is not accessible to evidence! Most atheists have CONCLUDED their belief, that even when evidence is brought they fight is to still have their stand infront of the evidences.

Everything can be an evidence, but it depends on WHAT YOU WOULD TAKE AS AN EVIDENCE? If you can answer this, then you are sincere. But, if you say that NO AMOUNT of evidence will ever show you that supernatural, then you have already concluded to the extent that even if that something you are to see as evidence come around you will still reject it.


So, to better serve you the evidence of supernatural, I would like to ask you; WHAT WOULD YOU TAKE AS AN EVIDENCE FOR THE SUPERNATURAL? If you say nothing, they you not a sincere atheist who wants to seek and know the truth. And if you say something that would really prove to an average man that the supernatural exists, then there will be no problem in providing the evidence.

Seun:

Actually, most deathbed conversion stories are just lies. People literally make up fake stories to glorify God. The "lying for Jesus" phenomenon.

It is so shameful you would say something like this with no proof, just to cool down your nerves and arteries.

Wait seun, are you trying to say that NONE OF THEM, not a single one, is true?? If NONE OF THEM is true, can you provide proof for that?

promise10:

What evidence are you asking for?

An average atheistic heart is not accessible to evidence! Most atheists have CONCLUDED their belief, that even when evidence is brought they fight is to still have their stand infront of the evidences.

Everything can be an evidence, but it depends on WHAT YOU WOULD TAKE AS AN EVIDENCE? If you can answer this, then you are sincere. But, if you say that NO AMOUNT of evidence will ever show you that supernatural, then you have already concluded to the extent that even if that something you are to see as evidence come around you will still reject it.


So, to better serve you the evidence of supernatural, I would like to ask you; WHAT WOULD YOU TAKE AS AN EVIDENCE FOR THE SUPERNATURAL? If you say nothing, they you not a sincere atheist who wants to seek and know the truth. And if you say something that would really prove to an average man that the supernatural exists, then there will be no problem in providing the evidence.

I didn't choose to be an atheist because I hate religion.
What will I accept as evidence??
If a Christain and I could take a walk to the hospital and perform some miracles( heal a sick person ) with immediate effect, then I'll believe.

mrmrmister:


I didn't choose to be an atheist because I hate religion.
What will I accept as evidence??
If a Christain and I could take a walk to the hospital and perform some miracles( heal a sick person ) with immediate effect, then I'll believe.

I could have given you an invitation!

Just that I am planning to travel in the next few days out of the country. If not I would have invited you and pay for every expenses that it would involved both for you and me.