vaxx:
not to argue back and forth....you reject the research simply because it is not specific on atheist solder..even when the research actually says solder in general.. Am Cool with that...

Do you read my response when I said dogma and believe can supersed fear?

Of course I did read it but it says more about that person rather than atheists generally, no doubt I admit there are atheists that would call on imaginary friends in times of trouble but my assertion is that using that to paint atheism is very wrong and fallacious cuz there are theists that lose faith in desperate situations too but nobody says "There are no theists in foxholes" or at least I haven't heard such

There's one of my followers who in a PM said he realised there's no interfering god when he faced troubles and none of his prayers worked, this led him to question his belief and he found himself in atheism; I said something similar in the OP

hopefulLandlord:


Of course I did read it but it says more about that person rather than atheists generally, no doubt I admit there are atheists that would call on imaginary friends in times of trouble but my assertion is that using that to paint atheism is very wrong and fallacious cuz there are theists that lose faith in desperate situations too but nobody says "There are no theists in foxholes" or at least I haven't heard such

There's one of my followers who in a PM said he realised there's no interfering god when he faced troubles and none of his prayers worked, this led him to question his belief and he found himself in atheism; I said something similar in the OP

since you do not agree with the research.... No need to use it in this topic then....the adage to me is sensible....

why?

Under normal circumstances when people have not been brainwashed .. It is normal we fear and feel stressful at the point of danger.... I gave an instance of a Muslim who wear garment of bomb to kill for the sake of Allah and likewise a Christian who prefer to die just not to say the shaadah(islamic attestation).... Therefore an atheist who has nurse the dogma of there is no god will not consider prayer useful at the point of danger


Man are by nature God conscious....there is always a wish we have an higher power that can simplify things for us when we see we aren't capable enough....

Most people who become atheist today develop the dogma on the face of challenges... They were looking for solution by praying to higher authority.... But when they couldn't find one they decide that the higher authority do not exist... Like your friend you just mention....

vaxx:
since you do not agree with the research.... No need to use it in this topic then....the adage to me is sensible....

why?

Under normal circumstances when people have not been brainwashed .. It is normal we fear and feel stressful at the point of danger.... I gave an instance of a Muslim who wear garment of bomb to kill for the sake of Allah and likewise a Christian who prefer to die just not to say the shaadah(islamic attestation).... Therefore an atheist who has nurse the dogma of there is no god will not consider prayer useful at the point of danger


Man are by nature God conscious....there is always a wish we have an higher power that can simplify things for us when we see we aren't capable enough....

Most people who become atheist today develop the dogma on the face of challenges... They were looking for solution by praying to higher authority.... But when they couldn't find one they decide that the higher authority do not exist... Like your friend you just mention....

all these are assertions with nothing backing it up

an atheist wouldn't wear a suicide vest or die for his lack of belief but that's all I there is to it, whether he/she would then call on a god is left to be seen

there's no stat that backs up the idea that atheist would reach out to a god, its just a projection of the person making the assertion; while they say "When you're in danger you'll remember god" they're actually saying "If I were you, when I'm in danger I'll remember god"; so its all psychological projection

hopefulLandlord:

all these are assertions with nothing backing it up

an atheist wouldn't wear a suicide vest or die for his lack of belief but that's all I there is to it, whether he/she would then call on a god is left to be seen

there's no stat that backs up the idea that atheist would reach out to a god, its just a projection of the person making the assertion; while they say "When you're in danger you'll remember god" they're actually saying "If I were you, when I'm in danger I'll remember god"; so its all psychological projection

I belive in the research work ....it is enough evidence....that back it up..

Atheist dogma isn't about wearing suicide vex, atheist dogma is to reject God in his existence.... That is the main dogma....

A well devoted atheist will not pray even when gun is point toward his head....it is normal ...I understand it...but the question is how many atheists are ready to die at the point of a gun if there is wish that can reverse the case.? Since only few athiest are brave enough not to pray or wish for supernatural help...then the adage is entirely true...


The adage simply identify the nature of a normal man in time of extreme danger and stress... A normal man who isn't so dogmatic in believe, a normal man who hasn't been brainwashed entirely will consider God in all his endeavour...religious aside....

vaxx:
I belive in the research work ....it is enough evidence....that back it up..

Atheist dogma isn't about wearing suicide vex, atheist dogma is to reject God in his existence.... That is the main dogma....

A well devoted atheist will not pray even when gun is point toward his head....it is normal ...I understand it...but the question is how many atheists are ready to die at the point of a gun if there is wish that can reverse the case.? Since only few athiest are brave enough not to pray or wish for supernatural help...then the adage is entirely true...



The adage simply identify the nature of a normal man in time of extreme danger and stress... A normal man who isn't so dogmatic in believe, a normal man who hasn't been brainwashed entirely will consider God in all his endeavour...religious aside....

you're making sweeping statements @ bolded; where did you get your stat that only a few wouldn't pray?

you see what I mean when I say these are simply assertions with nothing backing it up?

hopefulLandlord:


you're making sweeping statements @ bolded; where did you get your stat that only a few wouldn't pray?

you see what I mean when I say these are simply assertions with nothing backing it up?

it is just common logic...how many Muslim we wear succide bomb for the sake of Allah? How many Christian will refused to say the shaadah at the point of death...how many, how many ...compare to those who will say it...the same thing goes to athiest.... How many athiest will not wish for the help of supernatural help in time of danger and difficulty? Compare to who wish it


The logic here is indisputable...

hopefulLandlord:

all these are assertions with nothing backing it up

an atheist wouldn't wear a suicide vest or die for his lack of belief but that's all I there is to it, whether he/she would then call on a god is left to be seen

there's no stat that backs up the idea that atheist would reach out to a god, its just a projection of the person making the assertion; while they say "When you're in danger you'll remember god" they're actually saying "If I were you, when I'm in danger I'll remember god"; so its all psychological projection

Very True

vaxx:
it is just common logic...how many Muslim we wear succide bomb for the sake of Allah? How many Christian will refused to say the shaadah at the point of death...how many, how many ...compare to those who will say it...the same thing goes to athiest.... How many athiest will not wish for the help of supernatural help in time of danger and difficulty? Compare to who wish it


The logic here is indisputable...

you're conflating things here

if an atheist is about to be beheaded but told that he would be spared if he says the Shaadah, he'll most likely say it to get out of the predicament, even I would do the same BUT you need to see the difference, in this situation the atheist knows he'll be spared, all the power belongs to the executioner at that point so he's doing the executioner's bidding and not really calling on Allah

The executioner is real, his threat is real (impending beheading) and he's been given a way out, self preservation would make him do the executioner's bidding but we need to be clear on what he's confessing, while to the executioner he's confessing Allah to be the true god, to the atheist he doesn't mean one bit anything he's saying, if the executioner tells him to say "Jehovah is sheet" he'll definitely say it but he wouldn't make such a declaration if he weren't given the option in the first place

hopefulLandlord:


you're conflating things here

if an atheist is about to be beheaded but told that he would be spared if he says the Shaadah, he'll most likely say it to get out of the predicament, even I would do the same BUT you need to see the difference, in this situation the atheist knows he'll be spared, all the power belongs to the executioner at that point so he's doing the executioner's bidding and not really calling on Allah

The executioner is real, his threat is real (impending beheading) and he's been given a way out, self preservation would make him do the executioner's bidding but we need to be clear on what he's confessing, while to the executioner he's confessing Allah to be the true god, to the atheist he doesn't mean one bit anything he's saying, if the executioner tells him to say "Jehovah is sheet" he'll definitely say it but he wouldn't make such a declaration if he weren't given the option in the first place

it ain't conflations bro...it is a simply analogy... Only few muslim who wish to wear the succide vex despite the heavenly reward...only few Christian who says the shaadah despite they know it is blasphemy against Christ....

Likewise atheist.. Only few atheist will not pray or wish for higher protection in the middle of danger.. Despite he knows it those not tally with his belive ...

The logic isn't about if the being you are rendering the prayer will accep it or not....it is just a wish ....what you wish it should happen.....it is human nature......brb.....

vaxx:
it ain't conflations bro...it is a simply analogy... Only few muslim who wish to wear the succide vex despite the heavenly reward...only few Christian who says the shaadah despite they know it is blasphemy against Christ....

correct

Likewise atheist.. Only few atheist will not pray or wish for higher protection in the middle of danger.. Despite he knows it those not tally with it's belive ...

this does not follow

you can't pull conclusions based on what happened/is happening to another group of people, its fallacious

that a few Christians would not say the shaadah and chose to he beheaded doesn't mean only a few atheists would not pray to a god when in danger; you're connecting two unrelated things

The logic isn't about if the being you are rendering the prayer will accep it or not....it is just a wish ....what you wish it should happen.....it is human nature......brb.....

wishing and prayer are different from each other, a wish is a wish, it becomes a prayer when imaginary friends are added to the wish, I wish Nigeria were better than this, that doesn't mean I'm praying to a god that Nigeria should be better than this

so I do agree with you, in danger we all wish we could get out of it but praying to a god to help is not the same

hopefulLandlord:


correct


this does not follow

you can't pull conclusions based on what happened/is happening to another group of people, its fallacious

that a few Christians would not say the shaadah and chose to he beheaded doesn't mean only a few atheists would not pray to a god when in danger; you're connecting two unrelated things



wishing and prayer are different from each other, a wish is a wish, it becomes a prayer when imaginary friends are added to the wish, I wish Nigeria were better than this, that doesn't mean I'm praying to a god that Nigeria should be better than this

so I do agree with you, in danger we all wish we could get out of it but praying to a god to help is not the same

Be u Christian, Muslim, pagan or atheists .we are all human being...what separate us is our belive so nothing is conflating here...


Nature will take its cause at is time on any human....be it fear and anxiety...human are emotional animal....it take total amount of belive to consider dogma above emotions.... It happens but only to the few...

Every emotional human wish/pray...

Wishing and prayer are similar tools... They both aim at desire.... When there is only little or no chance of that event to happen....in this contest prayer and wishes serve the same purpose....

vaxx:
Be u Christian, Muslim, pagan or atheists .we are all human being...what separate us is our belive so nothing is conflating here...


Nature will take its cause at is time on any human....be it fear and anxiety...human are emotional animal....it take total amount of belive to consider dogma above emotions.... It happens but only to the few...

Every emotional human wish/pray...

Wishing and prayer are similar tools... They both aim at desire.... When there is only little or no chance of that event to happen....in this contest prayer and wishes serve the same purpose....

Wish and prayer are different, you are using them interchangeably in this discussion to make a point whereas they should be treated differently

I was once partially temporarily paralysed in the middle of the road having been hit by a powerbike, I couldn't move my limbs and another car was barreling down on my body,I "wished" the car would stop, I mumbled "please stop" "please stop", what I mumbled is simply me wishing for the vehicle to stop, it was from me to the car, prayer in that situation would be "Please God, make this vehicle stop"; every human had wishes be you atheist, theist, deist, pantheist doesn't matter, we all have wishes and we all wish from time to time; I'm executing a business this week and I wish it would be successful, that doesn't mean I'm praying to a god, does it?

we shouldn't conflate wishes and prayers

Prayer is the main point here not wishes, everybody has wishes

hopefulLandlord:

Wish and prayer are different, you are using them interchangeably in this discussion to make a point whereas they should be treated differently

I was once partially temporarily paralysed in the middle of the road having been hit by a powerbike, I couldn't move my limbs and another car was barreling down on my body,I "wished" the car would stop, I mumbled "please stop" "please stop", what I mumbled is simply me wishing for the vehicle to stop, it was from me to the car, prayer in that situation would be "Please God, make this vehicle stop"; every human had wishes be you atheist, theist, deist, pantheist doesn't matter, we all have wishes and we all wish from time to time; I'm executing a business this week and I wish it would be successful, that doesn't mean I'm praying to a god, does it?

we shouldn't conflate wishes and prayers

Prayer is the main point here not wishes, everybody has wishes

I point it out to you that at point of danger the word wish/prayer both serve the same purpose ....which is desire..... At a point where there is little or no chance of the safety event to take place....


Here will take us back to application of word I debated with you last time.....

Under grammer.... They are both acceptable depending on the usage....

Take this example....


Have you ever been to court of law...the word prayer is an everyday usage instead of wish....the plantif pray , the accuser pray.... Both pray to the judge....since he is ultimate decider of their faith ..

vaxx:
I point it out to you that at point of danger the word wish/prayer both serve the same purpose ....which is desire..... At a point where there is little or no chance of the event to take place....


Here will take us back to application of word I debated with you last time.....

Under grammer.... They are both acceptable depending on the usage....

Take this example....


Have you ever been to court of law...the word prayer is an everyday usage instead of wish....the plantif pray , the accuser pray.... Both pray to the judge....since he is ultimate decider of their faith ..

we don't need to split hairs here, we can't equate a wish and a prayer

everybody wishes from time to time, correct?

a prayer in this situation would be calling on a god, if you do not call on a god then you haven't prayed

we shouldn't ignore the context of the discussion here, atheists don't believe there's a god listening to them, they've been having wishes even when they were atheists; if you agree they've not been praying then, what suddenly makes their wishing when in danger now turn into prayer?

wishes =/= prayer

prayer = wishing to a god


let me just put it this way, all prayers are wishes but not all wishes are prayers

hopefulLandlord:


we don't need to split hairs here, we can't equate a wish and a prayer

everybody wishes from time to time, correct?

a prayer in this situation would be calling on a god, if you do not call on a god then you haven't prayed

we shouldn't ignore the context of the discussion here, atheists don't believe there's a god listening to them, they've been having wishes even when they were atheists; if you agree they've not been praying then, what suddenly makes their wishing when in danger now turn into prayer?

wishes =/= prayer

prayer = wishing to a god


let me just put it this way, all prayers are wishes but not all wishes are prayers

I just equate prayer and wishes using the court example....it is applicable on certain circumstances....



Yes a prayer involve calling on higher authority not necessary God...as we see in the case of court case...plantif and accuser both pray to the judge...judge isn't God..



Athiest do not belief in prayer....both at this point of danger ....it become very neccasery ....human desire/ prefer life to death.... A wish in this context become prayer....becuse of the purpose of the wishes which is also the same with prayer or a prayer become wish which is the same with wish ..they both request a saviour.....someone who is capable of helping them /saving them...


In the court of law....all wishes are prayer while all prayer are wishes....simple bro and likewise in any dangerous situation that involve life and death.....


The purpose both serve is desire....

vaxx:
I just equate prayer and wishes using the court example....it is applicable on certain circumstances....



Yes a prayer involve calling on higher authority not necessary God...as we see in the case of court case...plantif and accuser both pray to the judge...judge isn't God..



Athiest do not belief in prayer....both at this point of danger ....it become very neccasery ....human desire/ prefer life to death.... A wish in this context become prayer....becuse of the purpose of the wishes which is also the same with prayer or a prayer become wish which is the same with wish ..they both need a saviour.....someone who is capable of helping them /saving them...


In the court of law....all wishes are prayer while all prayer are wishes....simple bro and likewise in any dangerous situation that involve life and death.....


The purpose both serve is desire....

I repeat, prayer is different from wishes, I don't disagree there are instances where they both mean the same BUT in this situation "No atheists in foxholes" a wish is NOT the same as prayer; prayer to a judge is different from prayer in the context of this discussion

let me ask you a simple question, at the time I said "Please stop" to the vehicle barrelling down on my half paralysed body was I praying to a god? was I praying to a higher power?

it seems you're ignoring the context in order to make wish = prayer by any means

I don't know how else I can explain this

vaxx:
I just equate prayer and wishes using the court example....it is applicable on certain circumstances....



Yes a prayer involve calling on higher authority not necessary God...as we see in the case of court case...plantif and accuser both pray to the judge...judge isn't God..



Athiest do not belief in prayer....both at this point of danger ....it become very neccasery ....human desire/ prefer life to death.... A wish in this context become prayer....becuse of the purpose of the wishes which is also the same with prayer or a prayer become wish which is the same with wish ..they both request a saviour.....someone who is capable of helping them /saving them...


In the court of law....all wishes are prayer while all prayer are wishes....simple bro and likewise in any dangerous situation that involve life and death.....


The purpose both serve is desire....

this is your opinion not fact. A prayer is an appeal to a higher authority or communicating with ones God to grant your desire


A wish is a desire , hope , or longing for something or for something to happen

while both prayer and wishes involve desire

What differenciates them is that prayer is an appeal to an authority while a wish does not appeal to authority.

any other thing you say is you arguing for arguments sake.

Proudgorgeousga:


this is your opinion not fact. A prayer is an appeal to a higher authority or communicating with ones God to grant your desire


A wish is a desire , hope , or longing for something or for something to happen

while both prayer and wishes involve desire

What differenciates them is that prayer is an appeal to an authority while a wish does not appeal to authority.

any other thing you say is you arguing for arguments sake.

let me put it in example for you...Wish:- to buy a car for you

Hope:- expecting that you will like the car I brought...

Praying:- finally petted..

In this example , you can easily see the relationship between wish and prayer....


Both wish and prayer is a desire.....

In court of law , the normal word is prayer instead of wish....because they are appealing to the judge....which is the utimate decider... As you can see in my argument....in court of law nothing differentiate them........you wish the judge turn the case in your favour becuse of so and so .....you pray the case is won by you because of so and so

In the normal usage of the word.....what differentiate them will be base on the application of the grammer....example again...i wish i am sleeping by now.....i pray it should rain so that my wish to sleep can come true. ....in this example....you are appealing to a force that can make it rain to make it rain so your wish can come to pass...hope this clear the argument....

vaxx:
let me put it in example for you...Wish:- to buy a car for you

Hope:- expecting that you will like the car I brought...

Praying:- finally petted..

In this example , you can easily dee the relationship between wish and prayer....


Both wish and prayer is a desire.....

In court of law , the normal word is prayer instead of wish....because they are appealing to the judge....which is the utimate decider... As you can see in my argument....in court of law nothing differentiate them........you wish the judge turn the case in your favour becuse of so and so .....you pray the case is won by you because of so and so

In the normal usage of the word.....what differentiate them will be base on the application of the grammer....example again...i wish i am sleeping by now.....i pray it should rain so that my wish to sleep can come true. ....in this example....you are appealing to a force that can make it rain to make it rain so your wish can come to pass...hope this clear the argument....

blah blah blah

hopefulLandlord:


I repeat, prayer is different from wishes, I don't disagree there are instances where they both mean the same BUT in this situation "No atheists in foxholes" a wish is NOT the same as prayer; prayer to a judge is different from prayer in the context of this discussion

let me ask you a simple question, at the time I said "Please stop" to the vehicle barrelling down on my half paralysed body was I praying to a god? was I praying to a higher power?

it seems you're ignoring the context in order to make wish = prayer by any means

I don't know how else I can explain this

No where do I say wishes and prayer are the same....i only argue that the word is applicable on certain circumstances... Citing the court case as an example....


And most of this case are attributed to the time of stress and difficult situation...like that of foxholes... Where everybody hope to go home safely.....your wishes become prayer....becuse you are appealing to certain unknown force to make it possible...


In the case of the vehicle... You are only giving instruction.... So it those not fit the context of wish and prayer. You can wish not to be knockdown by the vehicle even when it Is glaring or the chances of it not happening is so slim....


how will I ignore the context....I am not debating to win you....am only stating how both can be applicable... If the purpose means the same.....atheist wishes in foxholes is the same thing with a believer.... Which both cut across desire....


I wish you are safe back home ...(appealing)...

I pray to be safe back home(appealing)..

Proudgorgeousga:


blah blah blah

I don't get that....or you do not consider my taught applicable...I believe we are learning here... If there is fallacy in that statement , you can bring it out....your wish is not to accept my point..but I pray you do so... That is my hope for you...