Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. - Religion - Nairaland
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. (10793 Views)
'forbidding To Marry' Is A Heresy Ofthe Roman Catholic Church Rooted In Paganism / The Moody Heresy: The Biggest Lie In Christianity! / Tomb Of Christ Opened For The First Time In Centuries (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (Reply) (Go Down)
| Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:28am On May 09, 2017 |
Good morning everyone  This is a discussion thread about historical Christianity and salient church doctrines. It's important to every diligent student of the Bible to know what the Bible holds as truth, what the early churches believed and what the best and wisest men in history preached. And how passionate they were about what they preached. Guess? every wise person would consider why they held on to those truths even in the face of great opposition. Surely there has to be something in it! Brother 5Solas and any other person with sound contributions and/or questions are officially welcome. We would commence with a book by Loraine Boettner THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION You can download the PDF and it's corresponding audio files ( all on Google) WHO IS LORRAINE BOETTNER? Loraine Boettner (March 7, 1901 – January 3, 1990) was an American theologian, teacher, and author in the Reformed tradition. He is best known for his works on predestination, Roman Catholicism, and Postmillennial eschatology.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loraine_Boettner 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 10:37am On May 09, 2017 |
An interesting read. i will be asking questions as i read along. i hope that is allowed. "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." [ Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, sec. 5.] if the above is true, how can one predestinated to eternal death be saved by "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and saviour?" 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 1:18pm On May 09, 2017 |
menxer:You are welcome Yes feel free to ask any question I think before considering anything. The first questions we ought to ask ourselves are: Is this a fact in the Bible? If yes... Is it worth looking at? And how is it defined in the Bible? That aside, the Bible is very clear about the predestination of the elect. This shouldn't even be debated seeing that they are expressly stated or implied in so many passages. One very good example is Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Before time began, From the foundation of the world, God chose some people to be called and justified in time and be glorified hereafter. It then follows that no one would be called to be a Christian (because a Christian is a person justified by the faith of Christ) without first being predestined. Moreover, the popular envangelical sub-clause "accepting Christ as personal Lord and saviour" is same as saying Christ isn't the saviour yet until we make him one and His death not enough but only made all he died for "savable". I.e It is insufficient to save a man including changing that man's heart and will towards God. If truly Christ's death is enough for those he died for, all of them would be brought to life in time by God himself. Hence, receiving Him isnt borne out of a man's will but God's. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 1:22pm On May 09, 2017 |
An2elect2:Thanks An2elect. I am excited. I will be posting later. We should have a reading plan, say a chapter a week which may be posted. Thereafter observations, comments, questions can be asked . Who was Loraine Boettner? |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 1:37pm On May 09, 2017 |
5solas:You are welcome 5Solas! Thank you, I'll be posting chapter 1 here very soon and like you said we post our comments, questions accordingly. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 1:54pm On May 09, 2017 |
THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION Chapter I Introduction The purpose of this book is not to set forth a new system of theological thought, but to give a re-statement to that great system which is known as the Reformed Faith or Calvinism, and to show that this is beyond all doubt the teaching of the Bible and of reason. The doctrine of Predestination receives comparatively little attention in our day and it is very imperfectly understood even by those who are supposed to hold it most loyally. It is a doctrine, however, which is contained in the creeds of most evangelical churches and which has had a remarkable influence both in Church and State. The official standards of the various branches of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches in Europe and America are thoroughly Calvinistic. The Baptist and Congregational Churches, although they have no formulated creeds, have in the main been Calvinistic if we may judge from the writings and teachings of their representative theologians. The great free church of Holland and almost all the churches of Scotland are Calvinistic. The Established Church of England and her daughter, the Episcopal Church of America, have a Calvinistic creed in the Thirty-nine Articles. The Whitefield Methodists in Wales to this day bear the name of "Calvinistic Methodists." Among the past and present advocates of this doctrine are to be found some of the world's greatest and wisest men. It was taught not only by Calvin, but by Luther, Zwingli, Melanchthon (although Melanchthon later retreated toward the Semi-Pelagian position), by Bullinger, Bucer, and all of the outstanding leaders in the Reformation. While differing on some other points they agreed on this doctrine of Predestination and taught it with emphasis. Luther's chief work, "The Bondage of the Will," shows that he went into the doctrine as heartily as did Calvin himself. He even asserted it with more warmth and proceeded to much harsher lengths in defending it than Calvin ever did. And the Lutheran Church today as judged by the Formula of Concord holds the doctrine of Predestination in a modified form. The Puritans in England and those who early settled in America, as well as the Covenanters in Scotland and the Huguenots in France, were thorough-going Calvinists; and it is little credit to historians in general that this fact has been so largely passed over in silence. This faith was for a time held by the Roman Catholic Church, and at no time has that church ever openly repudiated it. Augustine's doctrine of Predestination set against him all the half-hearted elements in the Church and arrayed him against every man who belittled the sovereignty of God. He overcame them, and the doctrine of Predestination entered the belief of the universal Church. The great majority of the creeds of historic Christendom have set forth the doctrines of Election, Predestination, and final Perseverance, as will readily be seen by any one who will make even a cursory study of the subject. On the other hand Arminianism existed for centuries only as a heresy on the outskirts of true religion, and in fact it was not championed by an organized Christian church until the year 1784, at which time it was incorporated into the system of doctrine of the Methodist Church in England. The great theologians of history, Augustine, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Zanchius, Owen, Whitefield, Toplady, and in more recent times Hodge, Dabney, Cunningham, Smith, Shedd, Warfield, and Kuyper, held this doctrine and taught it with force. That they have been the lights and ornaments of the highest type of Christianity will be admitted by practically all Protestants. Furthermore, their works on this great subject have never been answered. Then, too, when we stop to consider that among nonChristian religions Mohammedanism has so many millions who believe in some kind of Predestination, that the doctrine of Fatalism has been held in some form or other in several heathen countries, and that the mechanistic and deterministic philosophies have exerted such great influences in England, Germany, and America, we see that this doctrine is at least worthy of careful study. From the time of the Reformation up until about one hundred years ago these doctrines were boldly set forth by the great majority of the ministers and teachers in the Protestant churches; but today we find far the greater majority holding and teaching other systems. It is only rarely that we now come across those who can be called "Calvinists without reserve." We may quite appropriately apply to our own churches the words of Toplady in regard to the Church of England: "Time has been when the Calvinistic doctrines were considered and defended as the Palladium of our Established Church; by her bishops and clergy, by the universities, and the whole body of the laity. It was (during the reigns of Edward VI, Queen Elizabeth, James I, and the greater part of Charles I) as difficult to meet with a clergyman who did not preach the doctrines of the Church of England, as it is now to find one who does. We have generally forsaken the principles of the Reformation, and Ichabod, or 'the glory is departed,' has been written on most of our pulpits and church-doors ever since." [Preface to Zanchius' Predestination, p. 16.] The tendency in our enlightened age is to look upon Calvinism as a worn-out and obsolete creed. At the beginning of his splendid article on "The Reformed Faith in the Modern World," Prof. F. E. Hamilton says, "It seems to be tacitly assumed by a large number of people in the Presbyterian Church today that Calvinism has been outgrown in religious circles. In fact, the average church member, or even minister of the gospel, is inclined to look upon a person who declares that he believes in Predestination, with a glance of amused tolerance. It seems incredible to them that there should exist such an intellectual curiosity as a real Calvinist, in an age of enlightenment like the present. As for seriously examining the arguments for Calvinism, the idea never enters their heads. It is deemed as out of date as the Inquisition, or the idea of a fiat world, and is looked upon as one of the fantastic schemes of thought that men held before the age of modern science." Because of this present day attitude toward Calvinism, and because of the general lack of information concerning these doctrines, we regard the subject of this book as one of great importance. It was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Holy Scripture. Augustine had taught the essentials of the system a thousand years before Calvin was born, and the whole body of the leaders of the Reformation movement taught the same. But it was given to Calvin with his deep knowledge of Scripture, his keen intellect and systematizing genius, to set forth and defend these truths more clearly and ably than had ever been done before. We call this system of doctrine "Calvinism," and accept the term "Calvinist" as our badge of honor; yet names are mere conveniences. "We might," says Warburton, "quite as appropriately, and with equally as much reason, call gravitation 'Newtonism,' because the principles of gravitation were first dearly demonstrated by the great philosopher Newton. Men had been fully conversant with the facts of gravitation for long ages before Newton was born. These facts had indeed been visible from the first days of creation, inasmuch as gravitation was one of the laws which God ordained for the governing of the universe. But the principles of gravitation were not fully known, and the far-reaching effects of its power and influence were not understood until they were discovered by Sir Isaac Newton. So, too, was it with what men call Calvinism. The inherent principles of it had been in existence for long ages before Calvin was born. They had indeed been visible as patent factors in the world's history from the time of man's creation. But inasmuch as it was Calvin who first formulated these principles into a more or less complete system, that system, or creed, if you will, and likewise those principles which are embodied in it, came to bear his name." [Calvinism, p. 2.] We may add further that the names Calvinist, Lutheran, Puritan, Pilgrim, Methodist, Baptist, and even the name Christian, were originally nicknames. But usage has established their validity and their meaning is well understood. The quality which gave such force to Calvin's teaching was his close adherence to the Bible as an inspired and authoritative book. He has been referred to as preeminently the biblical theologian of his age. Where the Bible led, there he went; where it failed him, there he stopped short. This refusal to go beyond what is written, coupled with a ready acceptance of what the Bible did teach, gave an air of finality and positiveness to his declarations which made them offensive to his critics. Because of his keen insight and power of logical development he has often been referred to as merely a speculative theologian. That he was a speculative genius of the first order is, of course, not to be denied; and in the cogency of his logical analysis he possessed a weapon which made him terrible to his enemies. But it was not on these gifts that he depended primarily when forming and developing his theological system. Calvin's active and powerful intellect led him to sound the depths of every subject which he touched. In his investigations about God and the plan of redemption he went very far, penetrating into mysteries concerning which the average man seldom if ever dreams. He brought to light a side of Scripture which had as yet been very much in the shade and stressed those deep truths which in the ages preceding the Reformation had comparatively escaped notice in the Church. He brought to light forgotten doctrines of the apostle Paul, and fastened them in their full and complete sense upon one great branch of the Christian Church. This doctrine of Predestination has perhaps raised a greater storm of opposition, and has doubtless been more misrepresented and caricatured, than any other doctrine in the Scriptures. "To mention it before some," says Warburton, "is like shaking the proverbial red flag before an enraged bull. It arouses the fiercest passions of their nature, and brings forth a torrent of abuse and calumny. But, because men have fought against it, or because they hate it, or perhaps misunderstand it, is no reasonable or logical cause why we should turn the doctrine adrift, or cast it behind our backs. The real question, the all-important question, is not: How do men receive it? but, Is it true?" [Calvinism, p. 23.] One reason why many people, even supposedly educated people, are so quick to reject the doctrine of Predestination is because of pure ignorance of what the doctrine really is and of what the Bible teaches in regard to it. This ignorance is not at all surprising when one considers the almost complete lack of Bible training in our day. A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different book than they assume it to be. The tremendous influence which this doctrine has exerted in the history of Europe and America should at least entitle it to a respectful hearing. Furthermore, we submit that according to all the laws of reason and logic a person has no right to deny the truth of a doctrine without first having studied in an unprejudiced manner the evidence on both sides. Cc 5Solas Menxer |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 3:09pm On May 09, 2017 |
Still on Chapter I This is a doctrine which deals with some of the most profound truths revealed in Scripture and it will abundantly repay careful study on the part of Christian people. If any are disposed to reject it without first making a careful study of its claims, let them not forget that it has commanded the firm belief of multitudes of the wisest and best men that have ever lived, and that there must, therefore, be strong reasons in favor of its truth. Perhaps a few words of caution should be given here to the effect that while the doctrine of Predestination is a great and blessed Scripture truth and a fundamental doctrine of several churches, it must never be looked upon as the sum and substance of the Reformed Faith. As Dr. Kuyper has said, "It is a mistake to discover the specific character of Calvinism in the doctrine of Predestination, or in the authority of Scripture. For Calvinism all these are logical consequences, not the point of departure "foliage bearing ness to the luxuriousness of its growth, but not the root from which it is sprouted." If the doctrine is detached from its natural association with other truths and exhibited alone, the effect is exaggerated. The system is then distorted and misrepresented. A statement of any principle, in order to be true, must present it in harmony with all the other elements of the system of which it forms a part. The Westminster Confession of Faith is a balanced statement of this system as a whole, and it gives due prominence to those other doctrines, such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the Inspiration of the Scriptures, Miracles, the Atonement, Resurrection, the personal return of Christ, and so forth. Furthermore, we do not deny that the Arminians hold many and important truths. But we do hold that a full and complete exposition of the Christian system can be given only on the basis of the truth as set forth in the Calvinistic system. In the minds of most people the doctrine of Predestination and Calvinism are practically synonymous terms. This. however, should not be the case, and the too close identification of the two has doubtless done much to prejudice many people against the Calvinistic system. The same is true in regard to a too close identification of Calvinism and the "Five Points," as will be shown later. While Predestination and the Five Points are all essential elements of Calvinism, they by no means constitute its whole. The doctrine of Predestination has been made the subject of almost endless discussion, much of which, it must be admitted, was for the purpose of softening its outlines or of explaining it away. "The consideration of this great doctrine," says Cunningham, "runs up into the most profound and inaccessible subjects that can occupy the minds of men,--the nature and attributes, the purposes and the actings of the infinite and incomprehensible Jehovah, "viewed especially in their bearings upon the everlasting destinies of His intelligent creatures. The peculiar nature of the subject certainly demands, in right reason, that it should ever be approached and considered with the profoundest humility, caution, and reverence, as it brings us into contact, on the one side, with a subject so awful and overwhelming as the everlasting misery of an innumerable multitude of our fellow men. Many men have discussed the subject in this spirit, but many also have indulged in much presumptuous and irreverent speculation regarding it. There is probably no subject that has occupied more of the attention of intelligent men in every age. It has been most fully discussed in all of its bearings, philosophical, theological, and practical; and if there be any subject of speculation with respect to which we are warranted in saying that it has been exhausted, it is this. "Some, at least, of the topics comprehended under this general head have been discussed by almost every philosopher of eminence in ancient as well as in modern times. All that the highest ability, ingenuity, and acuteness can effect, has been brought to bear upon the discussion of this subject; and the difficulties attaching to it have never been fully solved, and we are well warranted in saying that they never will, unless God gives us either a fuller revelation or greatly enlarged capacities, "although, perhaps, it would be more correct to say that, from the very nature of the case, a finite being can never fully comprehend it since this would imply that he could fully comprehend the infinite mind." [Cunningham, Historical Theology, II, pp. 418, 419.] In the development of this book much use has been made of other books in order that this one may contain the very cream and quintessence of the best authors on the subject. Consequently many of the arguments found here are from men very superior to the present writer. Indeed, when he glances at the whole he is inclined to say with a celebrated French writer, "I have culled a bouquet of varied flowers from men's gardens, and nothing is my own but the string that binds them." Yet much is his own, especially as regards the organization and arrangement of materials. Throughout this book the terms "predestination" and "foreordination" are used as exact synonyms, the choice being deterrained only by taste. If a distinction be desired the word "foreordination" can perhaps better be used where the thing spoken of is an event in history or in nature, while "predestination" can refer mainly to the final destiny of persons. The Scripture quotations have been made from the American Standard Version of the Bible rather than from the King James Version since the former is more accurate. The author wishes particularly to thank Dr. Samuel G. Craig, Editor of CHRISTIANITY TODAY, Dr. Frank H. Stevenson, President of the Board of Trustees of Westminster Theological Seminary, Dr. Cornelius Van Til, Professor of Apologetics in Westminster Theological Seminary, Dr. C. W. Hodge, Professor of Systematic Theology in Princeton Theological Seminary, under whose supervision this material in much shorter form was originally prepared, and Rev. Henry Atherton, General Secretary of the Sovereign Grace Union, London, England, for valuable assistance. This book, we repeat, is designed to set forth and defend the Reformed Faith, commonly known as Calvinism. It is not directed against any particular denomination, but against Arminianism in general. The author is a member of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A., but is well aware of the radical departure which the rank and file of Presbyterians have made from their own creed. The book is sent forth with the hope that those who profess to hold the Reformed Faith may have a better understanding of the great truths which are here treated and may value their heritage more highly; and that those who have not known this system, or who have opposed it, may be convinced of its truth and come to love it. The question which faces us then, is, Has God from all eternity foreordained all things which come to pass? If so, what evidence do we have to that effect. and how is the fact consistent with the free agency of rational creatures and with His own perfections? |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 6:17pm On May 09, 2017 |
An2elect2:Thanks. Reading! 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 6:38pm On May 09, 2017 |
An2elect2:Meaning if our accepting Jesus is not borne of our volition but God's, why bother with evangelism? @bolded, the Bible is not a dictatorial manifesto that cant be questioned, else why did it say "come let's reason together?" or does that imply man has no freewill to ask questions? @underlined, if one is predestined to eternal damnation why bother with repentance. How does Jesus death makes someone God predestined to eternal death "savable?" Will changing a man's heart and will change his predestination? If that is true then predestination is circumventable, which makes the whole presdestination construct fallible and a fallacy. The reason God is said to know the end from the beginning is why he is said to be infallible, and this is the foundation of predestination; and if predestination is circumventable by the death of Jesus, it makes God Fallible.... Which is unacceptable by Christian standard. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 7:21pm On May 09, 2017 |
Just What Does Predestination Mean? There are only four places where the King James Version of the Bible uses either the word “predestinate” or “predestinated.” So, we must certainly admit that the word is in the Bible. It is only its meaning that is still in question. Let’s read the four verses and then return to them for explanation. The first two places are in Ephesians 1:4-5 and 1:11-12: “According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption [Greek: sonship] of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will…In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.” The other two places are in Romans 8:28-30: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow [step one], He also did predestinate [step two] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called [step three]: and whom He called, them He also justified [step four]: and whom He justified, them He also glorified [step five].” We can already draw two conclusions. Did you see anything about people being predestinated to be either “lost” or “saved”? Emphatically, NO! This idea is just not there and any honest reading of the scriptures cannot make it say this. There is no reference to anyone having their fate predetermined through any supposed doctrine about predestination. When did God decide to call those who are alive in this age? Now notice II Timothy 1:9: “Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” This verse does tell us that God decided to call some in this age “before the world began.” This answers the question of when God chose to call us but Ephesians 1:5 explains what was the purpose of our calling. Ephesians 1:5 said, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [Greek: spirit of sonship],” and verse 11 added, “being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things.” These two verses, coupled with II Timothy 1:9, make absolutely plain that God has predestinated certain people to the purpose of becoming sons of God! There is nothing here about being predestinated to be lost or, for that matter, saved—though salvation is described here as the purpose offered to people that God calls. Carefully notice verse 12 and the phrase “being predestinated…That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.” Paul is recording the fact that God is harvesting a few “firstfruits” now—of those “who first trusted in Christ.” The world will come second, but a few are being called and trained now to be first in God’s plan! This is an amazing and wonderful understanding. Do you grasp it? Can you see the potential within this understanding for how God might use you? Romans 8 requires some further explanation. It actually describes five separate steps or stages as God works with a Christian from the very beginning all the way to the completion of his salvation. To “foreknow” just means to know before. There is nothing mysterious in the word and, of course, God did know us before we knew Him. At some point in God’s examination and foreknowing of any single person, He predestines, or determines, that person to be “called.” When God’s predetermined time arrives, He calls the person. The person now comes to know who God is (remember, God “foreknew” him, knew him before the one called was aware) because He is revealing Himself during the calling process. If a person responds to the call, and is converted, then that one becomes “justified”—forgiven of his sin and made just before God. Likewise, if the person continues to yield to God throughout his or her life, it will lead to “glorification”—salvation. These are the five steps describing how God works with each person—foreknow, predestine, call, justify and glorify. Therefore, the subject of predestination has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved or lost, but with being called. More specifically, it has to do with those who are called FIRST. So then, God decided long ago (“before the world began”) to call a group, over a 6,000-year period, to be trained to rule with Christ. He did not know their names in advance or He would have had to cause all of the fornication, rape, incest and interracial marriage that, to a certain degree, would have been involved in the 6,000 years of events required to produce any particular person. God determined to call the weak, foolish, base and despised of this world to “confound the wise…[and the] mighty” that God will call later (I Cor. 1:26-29). cc: menxer 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 7:23pm On May 09, 2017 |
You Have a Choice God, through Moses, told ancient Israel that they had a choice concerning whether to obey Him. Notice: “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both you and your seed may live” (Deut. 30:19). God does not mock people or nations. He would not indict all those who “did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD” (Prov. 1:29) if they really had no power to make this choice. You have the power to choose (Deut. 30:18-19). What will your choice be? 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 8:44pm On May 09, 2017 |
Splinz: thanks for the mention. this your sermon how does it answer the questions i asked An2elect2 based on what i quoted from the book under review? i will appreciate if you can answer my questions one on one. besides, are you saying the "glorified" are lost? @bolded, does that make sense to you? the all knowing God would not know the name of his children? that is a new one. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 10:00pm On May 09, 2017 |
menxer: You're getting the bolden wrong. It means this predestination is not something that God predestinated A to fornicate, D to kill, E to worship idols, etc. If it were so, then He is the One responsible for all of our sins. Asking if the glorified are lost means you don't get the message. I urge you to take your time and read it again. It serves to explain what the bible mean by PREDESTINATION. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:06pm On May 09, 2017 |
Splinz: Why this may be true, the idea of predestination is in virtually every page of the Bible. Almost every where you see the words ''ordain(s)'', ''ordained'', ''appoint(s)'',''appointed'' e.t.c, you will see the idea there. So true!
The bolded is painful to read and very misleading.The obvious conclusion rather is that some persons have been chosen for salvation before time began and such persons must necessarily pass through the five steps listed above and cannot but be saved. Again your post is misleading. You rightfully answered the question when God decided to call us in this age-it was from eternity.How does the purpose of His call affect the time of His call or the call itself that instead of bringing in the purpose of His call to support the call, you are using it to diminish the force of the call? How can you admit that certain persons are predestinated to the purpose of becoming sons of God by Ephesians 1:5,11 and yet none are predestined to be saved?This is pure sophistry! Don't let the word ''first'' trip you.The essential part of this verse is that we should be to the praise of His glory who are presently in Christ. As such, anyone who has believed should be assured he was predestinated to that purpose.The predestination is the cause of the belief not the belief the cause of the predestination. Again a very misleading post! Romans 8:28-30 is a reference to believers, NOT the world. There is no getting round the fact that not everyone was chosen in eternity. Those chosen in eternity are called in time, justified and will be certainly glorified . Totally false! Lol. Nothing in the contexts of 1 Cor. 1:26-29 suggests that the ''wise and mighty'' would be called later. The bolded is sad indeed as already observed by menxer. 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 11:08pm On May 09, 2017 |
Splinz: here is what i quoted from the book under review, which formed the basis for my questions: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." [ Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, sec. 5.] fit your sermon into that. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:16pm On May 09, 2017 |
menxer:The bolded always gladens my heart. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 12:16am On May 10, 2017 |
''This doctrine of Predestination has perhaps raised a greater storm of opposition, and has doubtless been more misrepresented and caricatured, than any other doctrine in the Scriptures. "To mention it before some," says Warburton, "is like shaking the proverbial red flag before an enraged bull. It arouses the fiercest passions of their nature, and brings forth a torrent of abuse and calumny. But, because men have fought against it, or because they hate it, or perhaps misunderstand it, is no reasonable or logical cause why we should turn the doctrine adrift, or cast it behind our backs. The real question, the all-important question, is not: How do men receive it? but, Is it true?" [Calvinism, p. 23.] One reason why many people, even supposedly educated people, are so quick to reject the doctrine of Predestination is because of pure ignorance of what the doctrine really is and of what the Bible teaches in regard to it. This ignorance is not at all surprising when one considers the almost complete lack of Bible training in our day. A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different book than they assume it to be. The tremendous influence which this doctrine has exerted in the history of Europe and America should at least entitle it to a respectful hearing. Furthermore, we submit that according to all the laws of reason and logic a person has no right to deny the truth of a doctrine without first having studied in an unprejudiced manner the evidence on both sides.'' 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 6:50am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer: Oh sorry, I'm not arguing for/against Op's book. I'm only sharing what is predestination which the book seems to discussed. But then, claiming that some are predestined to inherit eternal life and some, eternal death, doesn't portray God as loving but our very enemy. Yes. He is a monster who having predestined some to commit every conceivable sin, still went ahead and condemned these ones that were simply doing His bidding. What sort of a God is that? Is God then lying and being hypocritical when He said that He wants ALL to come to repentance and be saved? (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) Of course no. Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 6:55am On May 10, 2017 |
5solas: how? that quote to me makes nonsense of the evangelism work of the church, why even try to "save" someone that was preordained/predestinated to eternal death? i will understand trying to "save" those who were predestinated to life but lost their way, but what of those who are safely "saved," in the arms of the church but were predestinated to death? you see, this doctrine of predestination poses a catch-22 to the doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 7:03am On May 10, 2017 |
Splinz: you now see the reason why some religious books and doctrines are up for review and updating? yet some people are clamouring to go back to the old time christian religion. religious doctrines should be treated like scientific principles that are subject to review in the light of new knowledge and understanding. you know what, the more i read this OP's book the more i see reasons why more people are leaving Christianity, that book needs to be reviewed and updated or banned; but hey! who am i to suggest that? 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 9:03am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer: It doesn't! Paul knew there were some chosen for salvation (the elects, 2 Th.2:13 ) but he didn't know whom they were , so he preached the message to all. He endured hardness for their sakes (not for all!) Even though he didn't know them. Reformed theologians such as Calvin, Luther, Knox, Thomas Cranmer, in short or Protestants before the scorge of Arminianism did the same. In modern times William Carey is a notable example. Arminianism is the belief that Salvation can be lost. It was alien and is to the teachings of the Reformers. The Arminian break from Protestantism in the early parts of the 17th century was the first break ever from Protestantism. 2. I can't understand what you mean by safely ''saved'' nor can I understand how someone can be saved if they were predestinated for death. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:43am On May 10, 2017 |
Splinz:This does not portray God as loving?Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What else does? Let's look at what you consider as loving: God love Mr A(who is a slave of sin). Knew before time that Mr A won't choose life but rather death. Why are you not also mad at God for going ahead to bring into this world Mr A He love even when he knows his "fate" beforehand. Isn't this unloving to you? 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 9:49am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer:The doctrine of predestination was taught by Christ' himself, why should it pose a problem to His gospel? Read John 6:44,65, John 10 and 17. Jesus continously talked of those GIVEN to Him and of His ''sheep'' and of those who could not hear His Word because they were not His ''sheep''. He also declared that it took the ''drawing '' of the Father for anyone to come to Him . Read also Matthew 11:25-27. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:54am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer: You know what is the fact about our world. The truth is very offensive and in direct opposition to how we feel. But it's only the truth that can save us. You are not suggesting a new thing. People have been "updating and reviewing" the Bible for long now that's why we have freewillism. It's very popular and readily accepted by natural men and women because it has no offense in it. It tells them their destinies are in their arms and makes God a standby or NOT omnipotent or omniscient. Walk into an average church with your inoffensive beliefs, they may not accept your terms but they would identify you as one of them because your message isn't offensive. 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 10:05am On May 10, 2017 |
5solas:If you say Paul knew that they were some chosen for salvation implies he knew they were those chosen for damnation, meaning his preaching was a coin toss, no certainty of who will be saved. From your comment, salvation meant different things to different people at different times. @bolded, what I meant is, is it safe to say Pst Kumuyi, TB Joshua, Pst E. Adeboye, Bishop Oyedepo, Pst Oyakhilome are "saved," or predestinated for eternal life, in the context of this discussion? Can anyone know that for sure? |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 10:39am On May 10, 2017 |
An2elect2: This is totally out of syn with what I have up there. Please read and understand. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 11:13am On May 10, 2017 |
5solas: You right, but the question is, how are you sure Nigerians are among those that were "given" to him? Even if we were/are drawn to him, don't forget he also said "not all those that call him Lord will enter into eternal life" Can you see that catch-22 in all these? No matter how much we twist it (predestination) to fit our belief or what we want to believe the catch-22 is obvious. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Splinz(m): 11:32am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer: Not that the true Church of God has ever taught that some are predestined to be saved and some to lost. The doctrine of predestination as taught today is nothing but a sham; a false representation of who God is and His plans for mankind. You see, contrary to the false belief that TODAY is the only day for salvation, the bible shows that it is not. God is not calling everyone TODAY. If He was, then He is failing woefully and Satan is more successful than Him. Think of the billions of people that have not even heard of the name of Jesus. Think of those in gentile nations who died before Christ. Think of the billions of others practicing other faiths. The question is: what becomes of them—perished? No! If there's anyone who is really in danger now, it is he/she who is CALLED already and is being judged (1 Peter 4:17). These are the ones who are called first and the whole world following later. Ezekiel 37 prophesied of such a time. All those who appeared to die “without a chance” will be given their first chance to learn the truth. Some have portrayed this as a “second chance.” We have been accused of believing the doctrine of a second chance. But this will be the first opportunity—the first chance—for many to be called. If people do not know God’s truth or were predestined not to, how can they be judged as having rejected or disobeyed it? On what basis could God condemn anyone who never knew that what they were doing was wrong or sin? What does the Bible actually say on this critical matter? Consider! James 4:17 states, “Therefore to him that knows to do good [God’s law: Rom. 7:12], and does it not, to him it is sin.” The key is knowledge—what one knows about right and wrong—that gives God a basis for evaluating how a person has or has not yielded to Him. Further, Hebrews 10:26-27 states, “If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries [of God].” There is no misunderstanding this plain verse. Willful sin against God can only occur “after” one has “received the knowledge of the truth”—or after one has been called by God to understand His plan. Once again, it is clear that God considers what you do with what you know to be the standard for measuring Christian conduct. menxer: Honestly, you're right. It paints God in the worse conceivable light—the architect of all evil! It's quite pathetic, but you know as I've stated before, let God be true and every man a liar. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:52am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer:Can you know for sure a person is born again? Whoever is born again was predestinated. Did you not read Paul talking of vessels of wrath fitted for destruction? Did you not read of God consoling Paul and telling him to abide in a city because He has much people there? |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:57am On May 10, 2017 |
menxer:Whoever believes in time was preordained. We can cast predestination aside as is being done in most Churches and be faithful in our preaching. I t is directly opposed to freewill. In chapter 2 of the book, I believe, we will have a better rendering of it.This is an introduction! |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 12:03pm On May 10, 2017 |
Splinz:Could God have justly condemned all men as a result of Adams sin? Was He under obligation to save ALL men? Would He be unjust if He decided to save SOME and not ALL? 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by menxer: 2:50pm On May 10, 2017 |
Splinz: Reading through some comments, I see people turning in their skin in defense of their religious beliefs. How can Predestination a Bible doctrine, a pillar of Christian belief, be a sham, just because it does not sync with your version of Christianity? That's funny. It's because of such catch-22 doctrines that I free-style my belief system. @bolded, can you see that sticking out like a sore thumb? The "knowledge of right and wrong" I guess is not the one Adam was accused of getting. |
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (Reply)
Say A New Year Prayer For The Poster Above You! / Is Grail Message A Cult Religion / Pastor Chris: Christ In You The Hope Of Glory!
(Go Up)
| Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 245 |