Ferisidowu:
early theologians even wrote concerning bondage of free will....

a lot of modern Christians and even pastors give much priority to free will

Splinz:
You Have a Choice

God, through Moses, told ancient Israel that they had a choice concerning whether to obey Him. Notice: “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both you and your seed may live” (Deut. 30:19). God does not mock people or nations. He would not indict all those who “did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD” (Prov. 1:29) if they really had no power to make this choice.

You have the power to choose (Deut. 30:18-19). What will your choice be?

menxer:


how?

that quote to me makes nonsense of the evangelism work of the church, why even try to "save" someone that was preordained/predestinated to eternal death?

i will understand trying to "save" those who were predestinated to life but lost their way, but what of those who are safely "saved," in the arms of the church but were predestinated to death?

you see, this doctrine of predestination poses a catch-22 to the doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ.

Ubenedictus:
how early are you willing to go?

Ferisidowu:



one thing is.... I have found comfort in the reforned doctrines they are true and shows that God is in control ... it gives me joy know that God is in control of everything... even all of Satans doing has decreed....
it feels good to know that God will not be mocked since all our good and evil were decreed... (I usually don't discuss this cos lot of Christians don't understand.. it even beyond what we can teach ,.... it God that makes someone understand)
it feels good to know that saving faith of produced God for the ELECT and it's different from what modern SIMPLE BELIEVISM teach

I thank God he allowed me know all of this...

bro, it's a great privilege That we know these things... a lot of people don't understand these things... some even give more priority to Satan more than God


A book I will never forget in my life is

FAITH by A W pink

An2elect2:
I am so happy for you brother. Natural man cannot grasp these doctrines that give us comfort because that would make God seem wicked to them. It has to be those whom He has chosen to grant the things of the Kingdom and whose hearts have been changed that would understand and be consoled.

Amen. Saving faith is so different from simple faith. I even opened a thread about it one time. It is saving faith that produces righteous works.

Ferisidowu:


yes, at first glance, it looked as if God's wicked, but then when a saw 1) he made man for himself
2) he made man for HIS GLORY 3) SATAN NRVER DESTROYED GOD'S DECREE IN THE FALL, HE EVEN PUSHED IT FURTHER

Saving faith is something great, it's a very big topic.... it proves that Faith is an EVIDENCE OF THINGS EVEN A SUBSTANCE A SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE OF GOD .....

Bro just try read that book called faith
by A.W pink

you'd love it....




that's why I laugh when atheist think that Christianity is foolish....

there's no one as wise a graced Christian......

they are the wisest
..

may God continually help us...

have you ever been a charismatic or Pentecostal ....?

An2elect2:
Yeah those 1-3 points are very correct. People would not argue against God's sovereignty and election if they centred their argument around God and His glory. But man is too full of himself.

Faith by A W Pink. I will add it to my list. I hope I read it soon.

Atheists? I just pray for them now. I was a sceptic too before God saved me by the power of the Gospel. I'd never know why He did but I know it had nothing to do with me because like everyone I wasn't born seeking for Him. But God changed everything.

I was a Catholic before my salvation and a legionary. But after I got born again I aligned more with the Catholic charismatics. They made me stay for a while. That was about 5yrs ago. I'm a sis.

Ferisidowu:


wow, well it's obvious that there's nothing God can't do...

he won't have men boast before him... I'm sure all elect are humble beings ... God will always make them Know That they weren't saved by their works even by their faith...
I was surprised when I was allowed by God's Providence to study the covenant that he made concerning Solomon to David..... how he promised to be father to him despite his short-comings .... there's something with the elect.. "THEY ALL ENJOY COVENANT OF SONSHIP"

I don't value alter calls again... since pastors now use it to display their pride, thinking that the elect are born out man's will.....

may God help us continually expound his words amen..

An2elect2:
It's true. God will always bring us to the knowledge of the truth. Because of the new hearts given us, we would humbly accept the fact that salvation is of God. Like a child we just want to know that our Father is in charge and rest. Him taking all the praise gives us delight...

Yeah our shortcomings. We fall and fail so many many times. Sometimes as if we are lost again. But God never let's go. That assurance just gives me peace and makes me cry. To know God has completely forgiven me of all my sins. What mercy. What grace. What peace that we can never earn!

Altar calls. Lol they are no good. Most times the sermon you hear from the pulpit does not open the heart. Why call for it. People don't get saved at altars but in their hearts and after that they confess it. And all this according to God's sovereign will and time.

Ferisidowu:


that's true .... thanks a lot,... it brings comfort to have believing friends who believes in God's absolute sovereignty.....

nice meeting you dear... I'm sure you know 5solas

An2elect2:
O yes I'm even following him. One of the first people I got to know here.

5solas:

Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians (Arminians ) and Open Theists will never interprete this verse correctly,65 as well..
John 6:65

Splinz:


Excellent! You got the message bro.

An2elect2:


The Bible talks of the predestination of the elect and not the non-elect. And Salvation as a gift. These are facts any sincere and objective person would readily accept.


You are bringing in sentiments and emotions into the Bible that's why you can't understand or accept the truth!

For you to be a Freewiller you would have to ignore so many scriptures. And what you have at the end are inconsistencies and a doctrinal system built on contradictions

Study to show thyself approved!

JMAN05:
The problem you have seem to stem from total omniscient you attribute to God. It is better to state that God has the ability to foreknow everything, but God doesn't use this ability ALWAYS

JMAN05:
When God created Adam and Eve, didn't foreknow what they would choose. He left such for them. There is no how we can state that God predestined every human without holding Him accountable for the woes of humanity over the past and pressnt centuries. No way!

JMAN05:
It means all of us are just acting out a role, and the evil are punished for doing what they are cloned to perform.

An2elect2:
Yeah those 1-3 points are very correct. People would not argue against God's sovereignty and election if they centred their argument around God and His glory. But man is too full of himself.

Faith by A W Pink. I will add it to my list. I hope I read it soon.

Atheists? I just pray for them now. I was a sceptic too before God saved me by the power of the Gospel. I'd never know why He did but I know it had nothing to do with me because like everyone I wasn't born seeking for Him. But God changed everything.

I was a Catholic before my salvation and a legionary. But after I got born again I aligned more with the Catholic charismatics. They made me stay for a while. That was about 5yrs ago. I'm a sis.

Ferisidowu:


on a debate?

Ferisidowu:
early theologians even wrote concerning bondage of free will....

a lot of modern Christians and even pastors give much priority to free will

Ferisidowu:



one thing is.... I have found comfort in the reforned doctrines they are true and shows that God is in control ... it gives me joy know that God is in control of everything... even all of Satans doing has decreed....
it feels good to know that God will not be mocked since all our good and evil were decreed... (I usually don't discuss this cos lot of Christians don't understand.. it even beyond what we can teach ,.... it God that makes someone understand)
it feels good to know that saving faith of produced God for the ELECT and it's different from what modern SIMPLE BELIEVISM teach

I thank God he allowed me know all of this...

bro, it's a great privilege That we know these things... a lot of people don't understand these things... some even give more priority to Satan more than God


A book I will never forget in my life is

FAITH by A W pink

An2elect2:
Thank you for stopping by.

Yes true!!! I've not read every bit of it but I have come to that understanding by God's grace that He is in charge of everything and man still responsible for his sins.

I should be a Presbyterian but where I live there is none for now.

5solas:

It is good for believers to know what they believe. Is it Roman Catholic or Protestant. These are the dominant school of thoughts.Reformed churches are churches which are Protestant and their belief on predestination is here set out. It is disheartening that most Protestant Churches now teach what is at variance with their creeds.The average Protestant does not know about predestination, even argues against it, holding forth ''freewill'' one of the errors of the Roman Catholic Church which the early reformers proved to be a lie.
God ordains all that come to pass (Rom. 13:1,2) evil rulers or good rulers,good or evil.And for all that, he is not responsible for the sin of the wicked. We don't accuse God to be responsible for the sins of those who crucified Christ even though He ordained the crucifixion .

(Acts 2 )



Acts 4






Amen! Nothing happens by chance! God not only has control over man , He has control over animals, plants and non-living things-rains,floods,volcanoes, earthquakes,e.t.c He determined before time what shall be and how far there are to extend.
Amos 3

Job 38



Amen!!!!!!!
Have you been deceived to overlook predestination whenever/wherever you see it in the Bible? Reconsider it. Is predestination unfair?
What about grace?

Any interpretation of the Bible (especially as it pertains to salvation) that does not take into account the fact that there is predestination is totally flawed.

Thanks An2elect2 for energizing me.

5solas:


Thanks.
As you have observed most Protestants do not know what Luther and the other reformers preached.
How I wish most know for example that Luther took more than 300 pages to show that ''freewill'' does not exist in ''The Bondage of the Will''.
During Luther's time the false doctrine that salvation can be lost (Arminianism) was not in existence.
Most people assume Calvinism (the view that salvation cannot be lost) is more recent, but how wrong they are!

Scholar8200:


Kindly indulge this curiosity:

Would you consider yourself one of those predestined to believe? If yes, how did you know?(scriptural basis pls) And how are you sure you wont turn out to be the opposite later?


As regards the highlighted, how do we explain the Great commission in the light of predestination?

Besides, would those predestined be saved preacher or no preacher? If the latter is true, what purpose was the life-threatening Great Commission? If the former, why would God need man to fulfill His call on the called ones since they were already chosen?

And what does the persistent use of, "whosoever will" suggest? Does He mean what He says when He uses that clause?

Kindly indicate if this derails your thread and I will take it down.

An2elect2:
Thank you 5Solas. Glory to our Lord and Sovereign God!!!

Great comment. Well done!

Do protestants ever check history? How can they be happy to associate with reformed men like Martin Luther and not consider what they preached.

An2elect2:
[i] Chapter 2

Statement of the Doctrine

In the Westminster Confession, which sets forth the beliefs of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches and which is the most perfect expression of the Reformed Faith, we read: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." And further, "Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions." This doctrine of Predestination represents the purpose of God as absolute and unconditional, independent of the whole finite creation, and as originating solely in the eternal counsel of His will. God is seen as the great and mighty King who has appointed the course of nature and who directs the course of history even down to its minutest details. His decree is eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign. It extends not merely to the course of the physical world but to every event in human history from the creation to the judgment, and includes all the activities of saints and angels in heaven and of reprobates and demons in hell. It embraces the whole scope of creaturely existence, through time and eternity, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations. Everything outside of God Himself is included in this all-embracing decree, and that very naturally since all other beings owe their existence and continuance in existence to His creative and sustaining power. It provides a providential control under which all things are hastening to the end of God's determining; and the goal is, "One far-off divine event Toward which the whole creation moves. Since the finite creation through its whole range exists as a medium through which God manifests His glory, and since it is absolutely dependent on Him, it of itself could originate no conditions which would limit or defeat the manifestation of that glory.

From all eternity God has purposed to do just exactly what He is doing. He is the sovereign Ruler of the universe and "does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35. Since the universe had its origin in God and depends on Him for its continued existence it must be, in all its parts and at all times, subject to His control so that nothing can come to pass contrary to what He expressly decrees or permits. Thus the eternal purpose is represented as an act of sovereign predestination or foreordination, and unconditioned by any subsequent fact or change in time. Hence it is represented as being the basis of the divine foreknowledge of all future events, and not conditioned by that foreknowledge or by anything originated by the events themselves.

Cc 5Solas

An2elect2:
You agree Eternal life is a gift?

Lol the contradiction again.
"Eternal life is a gift but you have to work for it too" No need for long argument. You don't believe it's a gift but a reward. You are just not stupid to bluntly say it. Still yet, any objective person can see what you implying.

No one works for a gift. Imagine after working my life out to earn a monthly pay and it's termed a gift not a reward on point of reception. Doesn't make sense because that would mean I don't deserve the pay in spite of my work. For it to be a gift, then I can't work for it but would get it on a platter.

Freewillers cannot see eternal life as a gift. If they do they will have to accept the doctrine of predestination and election which they hate. So I understand why you have to "twist" the truth to make eternal a "gift and a reward".

Even when I showed you that it wasn't Eternal life Paul was pummeling his body for? And also showed you that Paul did nothing without God's grace working in him? You still think God's grace isn't sufficient but a special effort from Paul. Well it's not that I've not provided any point against that it is that you don't see eternal life as a gift. Because if you did you would not interpret a verse that is not talking of eternal life against one that plainly spells it out.


For someone who believes salvation or eternal life is a reward, I don't see you interpreting that another way.

[i] This is drawn because "eternal life is a reward"

You are getting bolder now. Now you can say "It is a reward" Yet in order not to sound too "biblically off" you still "maintain" it's a gift.



[i] Sure you can if it depends on you. But in the Bible it depends on God. His grace and promises.
Yes thanks, I'm sticking with the Bible



Why won't it be "an effort" when "Salvation or eternal life is a reward" Not expecting you to contradict yourself, am I?


Ya you obeyed from that stony, wicked and deceitful heart. It was really an effort!
Sure! The Bible is such a book of lies. How dare it say no one can do good or non is righteous or non is seeking God when there are people (outside Christ)according to you who can choose not to submit themselves to sin. There are definitely people who would not submit their bodies to sin and are living sinless lives. It's not an automatic submission but a willful submission. Yeah let God be a liar and Freewillism true.



Ya Bible says Sin cannot have dominion over believers anymore because they are under grace, but I forgot for freewillism to have its way, the believer must not think he is no more a slave of sin and now a slave of righteousness but he must see none as his master.

Moreso Bible says People who leave us were never a part of us. Like Judas, they appear to be spiritually called. But freewillism has to rear its ugly head and twist the truth into a beautiful lie.
When "eternal life and salvation are rewards" works and efforts become inevitable. Grace is only an abstract thing that only offers forgiveness but is not an ability to overcome sin. Your freewill theology has been consistent so far

Yeah when the enemy wants to plant his children in the midst of God's children he won't give them a form of godliness and false righteous appearance to deceive the truly called. He would plant atheists in the midst of unbelievers. Indeed.

"Isn't Salvation a reward"



Exactly! God can't be the one working inside of us both to will and to do but He is just a standby supplying us power occasionally.

It's high time we removed parts of the scriptures because they are really getting in the way of freewillism!



Very consistent. "Eternal life is a reward"


How do we arrive at all these wrong conclusions? Simple.

When we believe that we are not dead in sins and trespasses Ephesians 2:1,2.

And when we believe Salvation is not a gift but a reward or part-gift. Ephesians 2:8,9.

Ferisidowu:
ubenedictus

it's true that humans have free will.... yet even their free will is 1) limited
2) in bondage

you asked a question about elect...

the elect are the who are called spiritually and follow Christ... (when I say spiritually I don't mean that they had dreams or visions oooo)
I mean the effectual fervent call of the SPIRIT
to worship and live for God in Jesus Christ

Also human free will will always be inside God's unchanged decree

Ferisidowu:
ubenedictus

it's true that humans have free will.... yet even their free will is 1) limited
2) in bondage

you asked a question about elect...

the elect are the who are called spiritually and follow Christ... (when I say spiritually I don't mean that they had dreams or visions oooo)
I mean the effectual fervent call of the SPIRIT
to worship and live for God in Jesus Christ

Also human free will will always be inside God's unchanged decree

Ferisidowu:
I don't know why this seem hard for you to understand.... neither am I going to rack my head just to start teaching you....

I didn't start with this thread so I don't know what op put down

yet I'm sure even without starting with the thread that what the op is teaching about is GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY ...

I don't discard free will .. yet I know it's nothing since .. . it's GOD'S PROVIDENCE THAT SHAPES OUR DESTINY ... (which you can't deny)

but seeing you are a willing Brother ... I will try create a thread (when am free) so we would discuss this..

HUMAN free will is in bondage either you agree or not ... humans can't do good to God's satisfaction... although humans don't believe that they are completely bad, useless, worthless, ... yet in God's sight they ALL ARE

they think themselves to be good, at least humans can do good works, can choose not to steal ryt... even a lot have died in their self righteousness thinking they would make it to heaven... but I know that if anyone make it to heaven by his works both in AD and BC then Christ died in vain