Ubenedictus:
the fact that freewill is limited is true, it is taught by both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church... Augustine teaches the same... in fact that limitation has a name it is called concupiscence. the sin of Adam limited our will so much that we cannot do anything good by ourselves without grace.

if grace is given then we can now be inspired to do good.

but Calvin went further... he taught that the will is dead so Calvinist teach that man needs irresistible grace t[size=8pt] the fact that freewill is limited is true, it is taught by both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church... Augustine teaches the same... in fact that limitation has a name it is called concupiscence. the sin of Adam limited our will so much that we cannot do anything good by ourselves without grace.

lolz it's still obvious that don't get it......
even the worst of sinners can do good without Grace no one single Grace.....

thet means that Grace is not the web ability to do good ... i.e if the worst sinners can do good without Grace... then your definition of Grace is nothing ... just a logical notion

what do you understand by irresistible Grace.....

you asked if am an elect.... now let me ask you this?

how do you know an elect?

Grace isn't the ability to do good...

since all humans do one form of good or another

GRACE IS SALVATION AND SALVATION ALONE

HEREBY IRRESISTIBLE..

Ubenedictus:


the weakness of man and his inability to do any good by himself isn't hard for me to understand, it is a fact.

what I disagree with is that human will is dead and so man needs irresistible grace,

what I disagree with is the teaching that God damned some people for all eternity and simply refused to give them any grace so that they will be bad and damned. I reject the teaching of double unconditional predestination

lolz no one is forcing you to accept it .. . brother...
it's a free world .....


but let me ask you,
why is it that everyone isn't saved? can't God give everyone irresistible Grace like he gave Paul in That mighty conviction??

also I didn't say, man can't do any good.... I said man can't do anything satisfactory to God....

the only thing that pleases God is saving faith... it's it put into people by himself alone..

Ferisidowu:


lolz no one is forcing you to accept it .. . brother...
it's a free world .....


but let me ask you,
why is it that everyone isn't saved? can't God give everyone irresistible Grace like he gave Paul in That mighty conviction??

Paul didn't receive irresistable grace, because just as your Westminster catechism says Grace doesn't do violence to the will. in fact if Paul wanted to stand up from Damascus and still go back with his blind eye in unrepentance nothing stopped him but he chose to accept Jesus.

in fact I have seen a man who became convicted of his sins and even came to see the need for Jesus, he was there crying but he still refused to open his heart. Jesus says I stand at the door of your heart and knock, sometimes he knocks very loud but the decision to open the door is yours.

the reason some are saved and others aren't is because some open their door while others don't not because Jesu wasn't at the door.

Ubenedictus:
Paul didn't receive irresistable grace, because just as your Westminster catechism says Grace doesn't do violence to the will. in fact if Paul wanted to stand up from Damascus and still go back with his blind eye in unrepentance nothing stopped him but he chose to accept Jesus.

in fact I have seen a man who became convicted of his sins and even came to see the need for Jesus, he was there crying but he still refused to open his heart. Jesus says I stand at the door of your heart and knock, sometimes he knocks very loud but the decision to open the door is yours.

the reason some are saved and others aren't is because some open their door while others don't not because Jesu wasn't at the door.

suit yourself sir.. .... but why isn't Jesus at every door since all need to be saved....


you didn't answer my elect question

Ferisidowu:
also I didn't say, man can't do any good.... I said man can't do anything satisfactory to God....

the only thing that pleases God is saving faith... it's it put into people by himself alone..

that means you are a semi palegian.


you guys need to read past the 15th century. the council of Orange actually concluded against pelagius that every good thing done by man is by God's help. without God man can't do any good.

I said to the LORD, “Thou art my Lord; I have no
good besides Thee” (Psalms 16:2).

Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is
from above, coming down from the Father of lights,
with whom there is no variation or shadow of
shifting. (James 1:17).


there is absolutely no good in man except God.

that is the truth... anything that gives man any good without God grace was condemned by the council of Orange as the heresy of pelagius in the 4th/5th century

as I earlier said you guys need to read past the 15th century.

Ferisidowu:


suit yourself sir.. .... but why isn't Jesus at every door since all need to be saved....


you didn't answer my elect question

do you know any door he isn't?

Ferisidowu:


lolz it's still obvious that don't get it......
even the worst of sinners can do good without Grace no one single Grace.....

thet means that Grace is not the web ability to do good ... i.e if the worst sinners can do good without Grace... then your definition of Grace is nothing ... just a logical notion

what do you understand by irresistible Grace.....

you asked if am an elect.... now let me ask you this?

how do you know an elect?

Grace isn't the ability to do good...

since all humans do one form of good or another

GRACE IS SALVATION AND SALVATION ALONE

HEREBY IRRESISTIBLE..

sorry dear you need to leave pelagianism, no good in man without God, the way God gives us help is called grace, the way he help our will or grant us virtue is still Grace. Grace means divine favour, the help God gives us whether to save us or to help us.

Ubenedictus:
do you know any door he isn't?

alright answer my elect question

lolz Mr ubenedictus

you are just labelling me all sort of things I checked the meaning of semi pelagianism now, and it shows that they don't accept the doctrine of total depravity ....

I teach total depravity... so why label me a semi pelagian?

Ferisidowu:
alright answer my elect question

I skipped your question on purpose, I asked you a question then you turned it around and asked me the same question.


if you don't wish to answer it is OK, but I won't answer my own question.

Ubenedictus:
I skipped your question on purpose, I asked you a question then you turned it around and asked me the same question.


if you don't wish to answer it is OK, but I won't answer my own question.

hmm beautiful,, well since you know what an elect is, go sort it out.

Ferisidowu:
lolz Mr ubenedictus

you are just labelling me all sort of things I checked the meaning of semi pelagianism now, and it shows that they don't accept the doctrine of total depravity ....

I teach total depravity... so why label me a semi pelagian?

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint
human nature and that mortal will is still capable of
choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

you just told me that some people do good work without grace that is a half part of the heresy of pelagius condemned by the council of Carthage and Orange.

you believe original sin taints human nature, you believe we can't be saved without grace.... which is correct but you and pelagius agree that humans can do good works and chose good without God. that is semi pelagainism I.e holding a part of his condemned teaching.

you guys need to read past the 15th century

Ferisidowu:


hmm beautiful,, well since you know what an elect is, go sort it out.

this is an interesting way to not answer a question.

are you one of the elect?

Ubenedictus:


Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint
human nature and that mortal will is still capable of
choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

you just told me that some people do good work without grace that is a half part of the heresy of pelagius condemned by the council of Carthage and Orange.

you believe original sin taints human nature, you believe we can't be saved without grace.... which is correct but you and pelagius agree that humans can do good works and chose good without God. that is semi pelagainism I.e holding a part of his condemned teaching.

you guys need to read past the 15th century

lolz I understand you ... it's you who doesn't understand me.... let me make my points clear

when I said that man can do good ... I wasn't talking about doing good towards salvation ... I was saying man can do good as humans for example Jesus said "if you being evil know how to give good gifts...." also to buttress my point..

even UNREGENERATE atheists do good.... philosophers do good ... idol worshipers do good...

but they can't make any tangible step towards real salvation...


the difference between my point and the semi pelagianism which you called me is

1: I said humans can never do anything tangible (good) towards salvation.. while SP says that humans can do good or anything tangible towards salvation

2) I hold total depravity while SP holds partial depravity

humans are depraved .... all the good they do is just to cover their bad works... they are trying to neutralize their evil deeds with good works they can never see the need for a savior ....

SP says that humans can naturally choose Jesus , even without Grace....

l

Ubenedictus:
this is an interesting way to not answer a question.

are you one of the elect?

i choose not to answer you thanks ... you yourself Know what or who an elect is then why bother...be concerned about YOUR OWN SALVATION .... my salvation doesn't save you neither does your save me

thanks

“WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME” for salvation. The invitation to be saved is to WHOSOEVER... “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17). Whosoever will may come to be saved. This is the freewill of mankind.
We read in Romans 10:13, “For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” God is a “whosoever God.” He says that anyone may come to the throne of grace for salvation. All that God asks is that we come by way of faith in Christ Jesus alone. There is NOTHING in the Bible about God choosing anyone for salvation. Mankind has been given a freewill by God to make our own decisions.

Predestined to be Conformed into Jesus' Image
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 again... “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be conformed into Jesus’ likeness.” The Bible does NOT say anything about being chosen for salvation. God knows in advance who will be saved and who won’t but He does NOT choose who will be saved or lost. We decide to accept or reject Christ of our own freewill.
Nevertheless, there are still those who teach that you cannot be saved unless God first chooses you—this is utter foolishness. This false teaching is popular amongst the followers of John Calvin. May I say, we ought to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES as Jesus commanded in John 5:39 and not follow the errant teachings of flawed men such as John Calvin or Jacob Arminius. Phooey on Protestantism with its unbiblical sacraments and all the other writings of men which distort the Word of God. The Bible should be our Final Authority as believers.
The truth concerning predestination is that God looked ahead in time, in His foreknowledge, and saw those who would one day be saved and He predestinated them to be conformed into Christ’s likeness. The Bible doesn't say that God predestinates anyone to salvation. No, rather, the Bible says that God predestinates them to be CONFORMED to the image of Christ. This is what predestination means. God has predestinated for my life to be conformed into Christ's image, and directs the events of my life as such.

God Has a Predestined Purpose for Every Believer
God has many plans for each and every Believer! “In whom also we have obtained AN INHERITANCE, being PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11). This is very interesting! God has a purpose for every Christian. Jeremiah 1:5 declares, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." God had a predetermined purpose for Jeremiah before the prophet was even born. God has a purpose for all His children. God works all things according to His own will. This is why Romans 8:28 teaches that all things will eventually work out for good for all Believers, “And we know that ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
Notice that all things are NOT good! The Bible says that all things will WORK OUT for good. You WILL experience pain, suffering and loss in this earthly life. Fortunate are those who have had the opportunity to enjoy a rich and happy life with little problems down here; however, most are not as fortunate. There are billions of people living in poverty right now. Millions of children are dying in other nations because of starvation and lack of simple vitamins. Most people don’t know what suffering is. Yet, we all have our heartaches and problems in life. Even in a wealthy nation like the USA which has been greatly blessed by Almighty God, pain and suffering are all too common. No one in this life is immune to loss, sadness, sickness, disappointment and hurt. The Bible does not promise paradise on earth; on the contrary, God told Adam and Eve that they would suffer in pain and toil. Howbeit, the Bible promises that ALL THINGS will work together our good in the end. We know at least that all things will be good when we get to Heaven to be with the Lord.

MuttleyLaff:
Are you saying God doesn't use the Omniscient ability always?
Are you saying God is not always in the know?
Are you saying God all the time is not in the knowledge of every thing, thought, action deed etcetera?
Excuse my asking the same question thrice over in different words.
Have to be sure I am understanding your stance

How did you arrive at the conclusion emboldened?

Not.
No one is acting out a role.
No one is cloned to perform.
It means, when a wheel falls off a bicycle, you leave it, until it falters,
it's after that and when the needful concerning it gets done

Kind of busy this days. I will respond when am chanced.

JMAN05:
Kind of busy this days.
I will respond when am chanced.

OK bro
In your own time, no "pajawiri"

MuttleyLaff:
Are you saying God doesn't use the Omniscient ability always?
Are you saying God is not always in the know?
Are you saying God all the time is not in the knowledge of every thing, thought, action deed etcetera?
Excuse my asking the same question thrice over in different words.
Have to be sure I am understanding your stance

It might sound strange, and I understand why it may sound so for you, but let's look at some texts, and see how we can generate a belief consistent with the scriptures.

Gen 11:5-6 reads:

"5Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built.6Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them."

Here shows that God went down to investigate. If we view God as all-knowing, how could he not know what He observed now?

Gen 18:20-22

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Verse: "I will go down, and see" said the Lord. He continued "if not, I will KNOW". He wouldn't have stated He will know what He already knows. Is there any need for Him to even investigate?

How did you arrive at the conclusion emboldened?

God gave them a choice. Eat the fruit and die, don't eat and live. If He had everything written out before there arrival, the choice will be meaningless. He would in fact be acting out a drama he had already written the outcome. So, why hold the human pair responsible for doing what they were created to do?

Not.
No one is acting out a role.
No one is cloned to perform.
It means, when a wheel falls off a bicycle, you leave it, until it falters,
it's after that and when the needful concerning it gets done

I think the scenario is: when you know the wheel is loose to fall off, and you chose not to repair it, but continued anyway. Yet blame m the wheel for fallen off.

I mean, if we assume that life was predestined.

JMAN05:
It might sound strange, and I understand why it may sound so for you

Understand that people pose questions for different reasons
I asked the same question in three different ways to get a confirmation from you believing & understanding that there is a limit to God's omniscient
but I didnt read anywhere in your response agreeing or disagreeing to any of them

JMAN05:
but let's look at some texts, and see how we can generate a belief consistent with the scriptures.

Gen 11:5-6 reads:
"⁵Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built.
⁶Jehovah then said:
“Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them."

Here shows that God went down to investigate. If we view God as all-knowing, how could he not know what He observed now?

I see everything that they do. They can't hide anything from me.
Their wickedness can't be hidden; I can see it.
- Jeremiah 16:17

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
- Proverbs 15:3

With Jeremiah 16:17 and Proverbs 15:3 above, at back of your mind, please follow along and meet with me down below

JMAN05:
Gen 18:20-22
²⁰And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
²¹I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
²²And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom:
but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Verse: "I will go down, and see" said the Lord. He continued "if not, I will KNOW".
He wouldn't have stated He will know what He already knows.
Is there any need for Him to even investigate?

⁹And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
¹¹And He said,
"Who told you that you were naked?
Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?
¹³Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate"
- Genesis 3:9, 11 & 13

Brother I cant believe you fallen to the trick of unnecessarily bringing God to the level of man's limitation
The knowing of God doesnt at any time stops or discontinued
Gen 18:21 is God being anthropomorphised and thereby shown as expressing Himself after the manner of men.

Just as asking the questions in Genesis 3:9, 11 & 13 to Adam and Eve isnt asked out of not knowing
but rather was for Adam and Eve's to realise an unpleasant fact and jam they put themselves into
so is Gen 18:21 showing that God makes sure of wrongdoer’s guilt before He passes sentence

Jeremiah 16:17 and Proverbs 15:3 above are about enough to show that nothing gets pass God unnoticed

JMAN05:
God gave them a choice. Eat the fruit and die, don't eat and live.
If He had everything written out before there arrival, the choice will be meaningless.
He would in fact be acting out a drama he had already written the outcome.
So, why hold the human pair responsible for doing what they were created to do?

God, is not only above us, as in just being Heaven,
He also, is ahead of us, as in being at the end of all the plethora of available choices we have to make.

It's true God gave them a choice,
but the choice starement, has an embeddded IF function
This when run performs a logical test
that returns a value for a TRUE result, and another value for a FALSE result.
Eating the fruit, returns a FALSE result with a die value (i.e. doesnt value life)
Not eating the fruit, returns a TRUE result, with a live value (i.e. values life)

Adam & Eve were created to live right
The freedom they had to do whatever they want,
doesnt absolve them from being responsible for the consequence(s) of the choice not to live right

A good chess player thinks five moves ahead
but God thinks right until the end of last move
That is part of how God with good algorithmic solutions, knows the end from the beginning

JMAN05:
I think the scenario is:
when you know the wheel is loose to fall off, and you chose not to repair it, but continued anyway.
Yet blame m the wheel for fallen off.

I mean, if we assume that life was predestined.

You incorrectly rewrote what I typed
I wrote, when a wheel falls off a bicycle, you leave it, until it falters,
it's after that and when the needful concerning it gets done

Notice, it is totally different to your version of what you thought I originally wrote

You earlier remarked that:
It means all of us are just acting out a role, and the evil are punished for doing what they are cloned to perform.

To that I wrote to counter that:
No one is acting out a role.
No one is cloned to perform...

Implying that when a wheel falls off a bicycle, and starts rolling down the road,
you leave it, waiting for the rolling wheel lose its motion or momentum
It is after the came off rolling wheel, comes to a state of rest, after being stopped dead in its track,
that the wheel gets picked up from its, at rest state, to be fixed

All of us, are like the came off wheel, each rolling down paths
It is only after we come to a rest state at the end of the rolling
that we get picked up and decision made on what becomes of us

"Inu ikoko dudu, leko fufun ti njade"
loosely meaning from a black pot, comes white pap
i.e. good do come out of calamity and the midst of evil

ferisidowu, 5solas, an2elect2, you guys have been teaching Calvin's doctrine of predestination, I asked you guys do you also agree with his doctrine on baptism?

you guys have refused to answer.


what says you?

Ubenedictus:
ferisidowu, 5solas, an2elect2, you guys have been teaching Calvin's doctrine of predestination, I asked you guys do you also agree with his doctrine on baptism?

you guys have refused to answer.


what says you?

hmm, doctrine of predestination isn't Calvin's besides,

all saints of patriarchal ERA (believers) believe this.... also we don't just teach predestination separately from God's sovereignty.....

I'm surprised you called us out as if predestination inline with God's sovereignty is heretic or false

anyways, on the issue of baptism I'll give my views very soon (I can't remember that you mentioned me concerning baptism before now)

MuttleyLaff:
Understand that people pose questions for different reasons
I asked the same question in three different ways to get a confirmation from you believing & understanding that there is a limit to God's omniscient
but I didnt read anywhere in your response agreeing or disagreeing to any of them

I see everything that they do. They can't hide anything from me.
Their wickedness can't be hidden; I can see it.
- Jeremiah 16:17

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
- Proverbs 15:3

With Jeremiah 16:17 and Proverbs 15:3 above, at back of your mind, please follow along and meet with me down below

Be sure that am not stating that God does not have the power or ability to foreknow. He does, but if we state He by default knows every single pin, even ones that has no relevance to his purpose, we would fall into difficulty with some scriptures. We can understand those scripture you wrote above to mean that Jah focuses attention on some events in the world. For instance I can look into an environment around which men and female sit and enjoy there life. I can see all of them from my view, but I might not be focused on the kind of shoes they wear, their neckless, ring, hair style etc. Although I see all, both white and black skinned, I can equally see there ring, I have the ability, but I might not focus on those because that is not what am after.

⁹And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
¹¹And He said,
"Who told you that you were naked?
Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?
¹³Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate"
- Genesis 3:9, 11 & 13

Brother I cant believe you fallen to the trick of unnecessarily bringing God to the level of man's limitation
The knowing of God doesnt at any time stops or discontinued
Gen 18:21 is God being anthropomorphised and thereby shown as expressing Himself after the manner of men.

So, God is no longer omniscience when He materialize human flesh? You don't get it, God had decided that He was coming to find things for Himself before anthropomorphizing. What he said is not a plan he devised when he turned flesh, but what He decided before materializing. He came to find things out. Obviously, He chose not to use his miraculous ability to foreknow in this instance.

Just as asking the questions in Genesis 3:9, 11 & 13 to Adam and Eve isnt asked out of not knowing
but rather was for Adam and Eve's to realise an unpleasant fact and jam they put themselves into
so is Gen 18:21 showing that God makes sure of wrongdoer’s guilt before He passes sentence

Jeremiah 16:17 and Proverbs 15:3 above are about enough to show that nothing gets pass God unnoticed

In the case of Adam and Eve, God is conducting judicial proceeding as it were. They are given the opportunity to defend there actions. The act has been done. Who knows there response would have earned them a forgiveness of there sins.

This is different from what we can make of God statement. He said "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." He didn't say he would know of what Adam did after asking them questions, but He did say He would know about the outcome of His investigation after coming down to Sodom. There is a difference.

God, is not only above us, as in just being Heaven,
He also, is ahead of us, as in being at the end of all the plethora of available choices we have to make.

It's true God gave them a choice,
but the choice starement, has an embeddded IF function
This when run performs a logical test
that returns a value for a TRUE result, and another value for a FALSE result.
Eating the fruit, returns a FALSE result with a die value (i.e. doesnt value life)
Not eating the fruit, returns a TRUE result, with a live value (i.e. values life)

Adam & Eve were created to live right
The freedom they had to do whatever they want,
doesnt absolve them from being responsible for the consequence(s) of the choice not to live right

A good chess player thinks five moves ahead
but God thinks right until the end of last move
That is part of how God with good algorithmic solutions, knows the end from the beginning

You incorrectly rewrote what I typed
I wrote, when a wheel falls off a bicycle, you leave it, until it falters,
it's after that and when the needful concerning it gets done

Notice, it is totally different to your version of what you thought I originally wrote

You earlier remarked that:
It means all of us are just acting out a role, and the evil are punished for doing what they are cloned to perform.

To that I wrote to counter that:
No one is acting out a role.
No one is cloned to perform...

Implying that when a wheel falls off a bicycle, and starts rolling down the road,
you leave it, waiting for the rolling wheel lose its motion or momentum
It is after the came off rolling wheel, comes to a state of rest, after being stopped dead in its track,
that the wheel gets picked up from its, at rest state, to be fixed

All of us, are like the came off wheel, each rolling down paths
It is only after we come to a rest state at the end of the rolling
that we get picked up and decision made on what becomes of us

"Inu ikoko dudu, leko fufun ti njade"
loosely meaning from a black pot, comes white pap
i.e. good do come out of calamity and the midst of evil

The bold faced. With predestination, ones fate has been decided even before his existence. So, before the wheel came off, God had already decided it will come off and that it is doomed. In that way, Adam and Eve was just created to act a role written for them. So why hold them responsible? Why give a choice when you have written what they will choose?

Ubenedictus:
ferisidowu, 5solas, an2elect2, you guys have been teaching Calvin's doctrine of predestination, I asked you guys do you also agree with his doctrine on baptism?

you guys have refused to answer.


what says you?

what's his doctrine on baptism?

also we don't follow any doctrine blindly ... I really don't know his teachings on Baptism..

I only know that baptism is an ordinance

Ubenedictus:
ferisidowu, 5solas, an2elect2, you guys have been teaching Calvin's doctrine of predestination, I asked you guys do you also agree with his doctrine on baptism?

you guys have refused to answer.


what says you?

Not Calvin's Predestination but predestination as taught by the Bible and affirmed by the other reformers as well as Calvin.
We believe predestination because we find it in the Bible not because Calvin taught it. For myself I have scarcely read his works but have found his quotes agreeable with the Bible.
Baptism is not a part of the doctrines nicknamed Calvinism the more reason I am not bound to accept his views on baptism.
The reformers were weak men like you and me used of God to proclaim the gospel. We should follow them only in those parts were they follow the Bible. I don't expect them to know the truth about everything, therefore I am able to accept them for whom they were and praise God for the truths they proclaimed despite the opposition they faced and the risks to their lives.

5solas:

Not Calvin's Predestination but predestination as taught by the Bible and affirmed by the other reformers as well as Calvin.
We believe predestination because we find it in the Bible not because Calvin taught it. For myself I have scarcely read his works but have found his quotes agreeable with the Bible.
Baptism is not a part of the doctrines nicknamed Calvinism the more reason I am not bound to accept his views on baptism.
The reformers were weak men like you and me used of God to proclaim the gospel. We should follow them only in those parts were they follow the Bible. I don't expect them to know the truth about everything, therefore I am able to accept them for whom they were and praise God for the truths they proclaimed despite the opposition they faced and the risks to their lives.

I tire for these pple.
Is predestinated not in the bible?
Was Calvin one of the author of the bible?

ichuka:

I tire for these pple.
Is predestinated not in the bible?
Was Calvin one of the author of the bible?

Same here.

Scholar8200:


Kindly indulge this curiosity:

Would you consider yourself one of those predestined to believe? If yes, how did you know?(scriptural basis pls) And how are you sure you wont turn out to be the opposite later?


As regards the highlighted, how do we explain the Great commission in the light of predestination?

Besides, would those predestined be saved preacher or no preacher? If the latter is true, what purpose was the life-threatening Great Commission? If the former, why would God need man to fulfill His call on the called ones since they were already chosen?

And what does the persistent use of, "whosoever will" suggest? Does He mean what He says when He uses that clause?

Kindly indicate if this derails your thread and I will take it down.

Besides, and if (or since) it is true that faith comes by hearing..and ... how shall they hear without a preacher, does this mean those who are to preach to the elect are predestined to do so? If yes, why was the command to go into all the World given to, and obeyed by all in the Early Church Acts 8:4? Moreover, if the elect can only hear and believe with a preacher, does this not simply mean that the salvation of those elected depends on the faithfulness or lack of it i.e. the choice of those preachers?

Like I said, if these are derailing kindly indicate and I will delete.

Scholar8200

Besides (or since) it is true that faith comes by hearing..and ... how shall they hear without a preacher, does this mean those who are to preach to the elect are predestined to do so?

Hi, sir although your question wasn't directed at me ... Just that 1) I don't think an2elect2 has been online for awhile so I thought to just help out

Firstly I need you to understand that predestination doesn't change HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY
Please it's very important you understand that
Although I'd love to let you know that you are in for a long discussion but may God help us Amen

Salvation is of the LORD" (Jonah 2:9); but the Lord does not save all. Why not? He does save some; then if He saves some, why not others? Is it because they are too sinful and depraved? No; for the Apostle wrote, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (1 Tim. 1:15). Therefore, if God saved the "chief" of sinners, none are excluded because of their depravity. Why then does not God save all? Is it because some are too stonyhearted to be won? No; because it is written, that God will "take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh" (Ezek. 11:19). Then is it because some are so stubborn, so intractable, so defiant that God is unable to woo them to Himself?
Friend, was there not a time when you walked in the counsel of the ungodly, stood in the way of sinners, sat in the seat of the scorners, and with them said, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14)? Was there not a time when you "would not come to Christ that you might have life" (John 5:40)? Yea, was there not a time when you mingled your voice with those who said unto God, "Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of Thy ways. What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto Him?" (Job 21:14, 15)? With shamed face you have to acknowledge there was. But how is it that all is now changed? What was it that brought you from haughty self-sufficiency to a humble suppliant; from one that was at enmity with God to one that is at peace with Him; from lawlessness to subjection; from hate to love? And as one 'born of the Spirit' you will readily reply, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Then do you not see that it is due to no lack of power in God, nor to His refusal to coerce man, that other rebels are not saved too? If God was able to subdue your will and win your heart, and that without interfering with your moral responsibility, then is He not able to do the same for others? Assuredly He is. Then how inconsistent, how illogical, how foolish of some Christians, in seeking to give reasons for present course of the wicked ,argue that God is unable to save them, ? ?that they will not let Him. Do you say, "But the time came when I was willing, willing to receive Christ as my Saviour"? True, but it was the Lord who made you willing (Psa. 110:3; Phil. 2:13); why then does He not make all sinners willing? Why, but for the fact that He is Sovereign and does as He pleases! But to return to our opening questions

If yes, why was the command to go into all the World given to, and obeyed by all in the Early Church Acts 8:4? Moreover, if the elect can only hear and believe with a preacher, does this not simply mean that the salvation of those elected depends on the faithfulness or lack of it i.e. the choice of those preachers?

One thing I know is that NO HUMAN can assert that this is an elect or that is an elect by just seeing them, not even the apostles the issue is that there's HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY as I said earlier
Don't forget
It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2: 13). Concerning the nature and the power of fallen man's will, the greatest confusion prevails today, and the most erroneous views are held, even by many of God's children. The popular idea now prevailing, and which is taught from the great majority of pulpits, is that man has a "free will," and that salvation comes to the sinner through his will co-operating with the Holy Spirit. To deny the "free will" of man, i.e., his power to choose that which is good, his native ability to accept Christ, is to bring one into disfavor at once, even before most of those who profess to be orthodox. And yet Scripture emphatically says, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, yes even about salvation too ..

Like I said, if these are derailing kindly indicate and I will delete.

definitely not derailing sir.

Ferisidowu:

Hi, sir although your question wasn't directed at me ... Just that 1) I don't think an2elect2 has been online for awhile so I thought to just help out

Firstly I need you to understand that predestination doesn't change HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY
Please it's very important you understand that
Although I'd love to let you know that you are in for a long discussion but may God help us Amen

Salvation is of the LORD" (Jonah 2:9); but the Lord does not save all. Why not? He does save some; then if He saves some, why not others? Is it because they are too sinful and depraved? No; for the Apostle wrote, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (1 Tim. 1:15). Therefore, if God saved the "chief" of sinners, none are excluded because of their depravity. Why then does not God save all? Is it because some are too stonyhearted to be won? No; because it is written, that God will "take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh" (Ezek. 11:19). Then is it because some are so stubborn, so intractable, so defiant that God is unable to woo them to Himself?
Friend, was there not a time when you walked in the counsel of the ungodly, stood in the way of sinners, sat in the seat of the scorners, and with them said, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14)? Was there not a time when you "would not come to Christ that you might have life" (John 5:40)? Yea, was there not a time when you mingled your voice with those who said unto God, "Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of Thy ways. What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto Him?" (Job 21:14, 15)? With shamed face you have to acknowledge there was. But how is it that all is now changed? What was it that brought you from haughty self-sufficiency to a humble suppliant; from one that was at enmity with God to one that is at peace with Him; from lawlessness to subjection; from hate to love? And as one 'born of the Spirit' you will readily reply, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Then do you not see that it is due to no lack of power in God, nor to His refusal to coerce man, that other rebels are not saved too? If God was able to subdue your will and win your heart, and that without interfering with your moral responsibility, then is He not able to do the same for others? Assuredly He is. Then how inconsistent, how illogical, how foolish of some Christians, in seeking to give reasons for present course of the wicked ,argue that God is unable to save them, ? ?that they will not let Him. Do you say, "But the time came when I was willing, willing to receive Christ as my Saviour"? True, but it was the Lord who made you willing (Psa. 110:3; Phil. 2:13); why then does He not make all sinners willing? Why, but for the fact that He is Sovereign and does as He pleases! But to return to our opening questions


One thing I know is that NO HUMAN can assert that this is an elect or that is an elect by just seeing them, not even the apostles the issue is that there's HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY as I said earlier
Don't forget
It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2: 13). Concerning the nature and the power of fallen man's will, the greatest confusion prevails today, and the most erroneous views are held, even by many of God's children. The popular idea now prevailing, and which is taught from the great majority of pulpits, is that man has a "free will," and that salvation comes to the sinner through his will co-operating with the Holy Spirit. To deny the "free will" of man, i.e., his power to choose that which is good, his native ability to accept Christ, is to bring one into disfavor at once, even before most of those who profess to be orthodox. And yet Scripture emphatically says, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, yes even about salvation too ..

definitely not derailing sir.

Thanks for your reply but then, even God's elect in the OT - Israel were given the obligation to choose Deut. 30:19 besides, God told Abraham that his descendants will be brought out of Egypt and made to inherit Canaan, however, those whose carcases was wasted in the wilderness were not predestined to do so, it was the fruit of their choice.

Now it might be strange to indirectly ascribe insincerity and (speaking from both sides of the mouth) to God's Sovereignty by surmising that His 'whosoever wills' are actually not so! Besides, what is God's will?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3,4
Also: God is not willing that ANY should perish. 1 Peter 3

Also, the onset of the Gospel, God's promise to Abraham states clearly the Divine will, " in Him shall ALL the families of the World be blessed"

How then will His Sovereignty refuse or deny what His Word (which He exalts more than His Name) declares?

Ferisidowu:

Hi, sir although your question wasn't directed at me ... Just that 1) I don't think an2elect2 has been online for awhile so I thought to just help out

Firstly I need you to understand that predestination doesn't change HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY
Please it's very important you understand that
Although I'd love to let you know that you are in for a long discussion but may God help us Amen

Salvation is of the LORD" (Jonah 2:9); but the Lord does not save all. Why not? He does save some; then if He saves some, why not others? Is it because they are too sinful and depraved? No; for the Apostle wrote, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (1 Tim. 1:15). Therefore, if God saved the "chief" of sinners, none are excluded because of their depravity. Why then does not God save all? Is it because some are too stonyhearted to be won? No; because it is written, that God will "take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh" (Ezek. 11:19). Then is it because some are so stubborn, so intractable, so defiant that God is unable to woo them to Himself?
Friend, was there not a time when you walked in the counsel of the ungodly, stood in the way of sinners, sat in the seat of the scorners, and with them said, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14)? Was there not a time when you "would not come to Christ that you might have life" (John 5:40)? Yea, was there not a time when you mingled your voice with those who said unto God, "Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of Thy ways. What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto Him?" (Job 21:14, 15)? With shamed face you have to acknowledge there was. But how is it that all is now changed? What was it that brought you from haughty self-sufficiency to a humble suppliant; from one that was at enmity with God to one that is at peace with Him; from lawlessness to subjection; from hate to love? And as one 'born of the Spirit' you will readily reply, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Then do you not see that it is due to no lack of power in God, nor to His refusal to coerce man, that other rebels are not saved too? If God was able to subdue your will and win your heart, and that without interfering with your moral responsibility, then is He not able to do the same for others? Assuredly He is. Then how inconsistent, how illogical, how foolish of some Christians, in seeking to give reasons for present course of the wicked ,argue that God is unable to save them, ? ?that they will not let Him. Do you say, "But the time came when I was willing, willing to receive Christ as my Saviour"? True, but it was the Lord who made you willing (Psa. 110:3; Phil. 2:13); why then does He not make all sinners willing? Why, but for the fact that He is Sovereign and does as He pleases! But to return to our opening questions


One thing I know is that NO HUMAN can assert that this is an elect or that is an elect by just seeing them, not even the apostles the issue is that there's HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY as I said earlier
Don't forget
It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2: 13). Concerning the nature and the power of fallen man's will, the greatest confusion prevails today, and the most erroneous views are held, even by many of God's children. The popular idea now prevailing, and which is taught from the great majority of pulpits, is that man has a "free will," and that salvation comes to the sinner through his will co-operating with the Holy Spirit. To deny the "free will" of man, i.e., his power to choose that which is good, his native ability to accept Christ, is to bring one into disfavor at once, even before most of those who profess to be orthodox. And yet Scripture emphatically says, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, yes even about salvation too ..

definitely not derailing sir.

Thanks for your reply but then, even God's elect in the OT - Israel were given the obligation to choose Deut. 30:19 besides, God told Abraham that his descendants will be brought out of Egypt and made to inherit Canaan, however, those whose carcases was wasted in the wilderness were not predestined to do so, it was the fruit of their choice.

Now it might be strange to indirectly ascribe insincerity and (speaking from both sides of the mouth) to God's Sovereignty by surmising that His 'whosoever wills' are actually not so! Besides, what is God's will?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3,4
Also: God is not willing that ANY should perish. 1 Peter 3

Also, the onset of the Gospel, God's promise to Abraham states clearly the Divine will, " in Him shall ALL the families of the World be blessed"

How then will His Sovereignty refuse or deny what His Word (which He exalts more than His Name) declares? If all are not being blessed it is not for us to adduce this to God but our failure in preaching the Gospel to ALL the World as commanded.