hopefulLandlord:
Spoken word created Honda too

I think you're better off talking to winner01 though, he's comparing creation of cars and "creation" of oceans even though its obvious they aren't the same thing!

Cars are created ex-materia (from preexisting materials like rubber, iron ore etc)
while he's implying Oceans are "created" ex-nihilo then conflating the two like they're the same,

can winner01 give us anything he has experienced being created ex-nihilo?
or maybe something being spoken into existence?

Yup, created a scene and fist-fight out of nothing
Cooked up a scrumptious dish out of nothing

The universe was created out of nothing
The waters (i.e. oceans) is "creatio ex-materia"

hopefulLandlord:

Spoken word created Honda too

I think you're better off talking to winner01 though, he's comparing creation of cars and "creation" of oceans even though its obvious they aren't the same thing! Cars are created ex-materia (from preexisting materials like rubber, iron ore etc) while he's implying Oceans are "created" ex-nihilo then conflating the two like they're the same, can winner01 give us anything he has experienced being created ex-nihilo? or maybe something being spoken into existence?

There is no creation without a creator. Its that simple. Be it by spoken word or as a by product of something else. There is nothing that was caused to exist by something else that isn't a creation of that thing. Its simple law of cause and effect.

Be it rocks which are formed through a process, the creator are those which came together during the process to form the rocks or an ocean or oceans and seas which scientists speculate were once in gaseous state and then when the earth cooled it turned to rain and filled the places where they are as oceans and seas. That must have been one hell of a downpour to have caused such massive bodies of water which somehow also got buried deep down in the earth and saturated it because the inside of the earth is also filled with water.

There is no creation without a creator. Even the by products of this creation still points at a creator which made or formed them. Nothing on this earth exists on its own.

MuttleyLaff:
Yup, created a scene and fist-fight out of nothing
Cooked up a scrumptious dish out of nothing

The universe was created out of nothing
The waters (i.e. oceans) is "creatio ex-materia"

Their entire line of questioning is a farce. Even science based on the law of cause and effect mocks and guffaws at their line of questioning but can they see the foolishness in their questions and supposed uncreated things being mentioned?

I seriously doubt that.

MuttleyLaff:
Yup, created a scene and fist-fight out of nothing
Cooked up a scrumptious dish out of nothing

The universe was created out of nothing
The waters (i.e. oceans) is "creatio ex-materia"

Then why compare them to Honda? we can go to Honda factory and witness Honda cars being created from scratch, can he take us to this "ocean factory" and show us oceans being created?

Spoken word indeed, here I am thinking Mbombo vommitted the world from his stomach or FSM magicked the everything into existence

hopefulLandlord:


Then why compare them to Honda? we can go to Honda factory and witness Honda cars being created from scratch, can he take us to this "ocean factory" and show us oceans being created?

Spoken word indeed, here I am thinking Mbombo vommitted the world from his stomach

This is how scientists claim oceans came about

The ocean formed billions of years ago. Over vast periods of time, our primitive oceans formed. Water remained a gas until the Earth cooled below 212 degrees Fahrenheit . At this time, about 3.8 billion years ago, the water condensed into rain which filled the basins that are now our oceans.

If you are a true deep thinker you would clearly see the holes in the above quote. But would you be honest enough to declare them is another issue.

"Water remained a gas until the earth cooled" where was this gas contained in such magnitudes without clouds? So these massive gases stuck around until the earth which is a circumference size of 39,931 km cooled down and then the gases condensed and came down as rain. I wonder why they did not condense before the earth cooled down and rather waited until the earth cooled down.

Logic is applicable everyday, everywhere and only those honest enough would point out their own flaws.

------------- Butterflyleo May 14, 2018 ©

MuttleyLaff:

⁶Yahweh created the heavens by His command,
the sun, moon, and stars by His spoken word.
⁷He gathered all the seas into one place;
He shut up the ocean depths in storerooms.
- Psalm 33:6-7

But some say, "first there was a cosmic egg made up of two balanced opposites: yin and yang. The egg held P’an Ku, the divine embryo. P’an Ku grew until the egg could not hold him, causing the shell to burst. So P’an Ku went to work right away making the world, with a hammer in hand. He dug out valleys, made way for rivers, and piled up mountains. But the earth was not complete until he passed away. It wasn’t until death that his flesh became soil and his bones the rocks. His eyes became the sun and moon and his head the sky. From what was once his sweat and tears was now rain and the fleas that covered his body became mankind."

So, which is true and why is it true?

Butterflyleo:


There is no creation without a creator. Its that simple. Be it by spoken word or as a by product of something else. There is nothing that was caused to exist by something else that isn't a creation of that thing. Its simple law of cause and effect.

Be it rocks which are formed through a process, the creator are those which came together during the process to form the rocks or an ocean or oceans and seas which scientists speculate were once in gaseous state and then when the earth cooled it turned to rain and filled the places where they are as oceans and seas. That must have been one hell of a downpour to have caused such massive bodies of water which somehow also got buried deep down in the earth and saturated it because the inside of the earth is also filled with water.

There is no creation without a creator. Even the by products of this creation still points at a creator which made or formed them. Nothing on this earth exists on its own.

The oceans points to which creator? Can you point to the creator of the ocean? Remember you said people should always proof their assertions. Point to the creator of the oceans.

Where is your proof that words create anything? How do words create things? What are we to do with this mythical and fictitious LIE you are throwing around? A LIE imagined and invented by ancient people which you are here confidently regurgitating like a drone. You should stop throwing mythology around and expect to be taken seriously. So Yahweh's words created the oceans and things abi? Why not his ejaculation. You guys are not serious.

Butterflyleo:


This is how scientists claim oceans came about



If you are a true deep thinker you would clearly see the holes in the above quote. But would you be honest enough to declare them is another issue.

"Water remained a gas until the earth cooled" where was this gas contained in such magnitudes without clouds? So these massive gases stuck around until the earth which is a circumference size of 39,931 km cooled down and then the gases condensed and came down as rain. I wonder why they did not condense before the earth cooled down and rather waited until the earth cooled down.



------------- Butterflyleo May 14, 2018 ©

You can use your "deep thoughts" to critically analyze what scientist say about how the oceans came about but you can not use the same "deep thoughts " to analyze ancient mythology and fiction that says some imagined entity spoke the oceans into existence abi? How did your God speak the oceans into existence? When did the Hebrew language turn to a creative force? How does language create things? You believe in ridiculous ancient magic but claim to be a "deep thinker", when it is ancient unknown Hebrew men that believe in riduculous magic that have finished thinking for you

dalaman:


The oceans points to which creator? Can you point to the creator of the ocean? Remember you said people should always proof their assertions. Point to the creator of the oceans.

Where is your proof that words create anything? How do words create things? What are we to do with this mythical and fictitious LIE you are throwing around? A LIE imagined and invented by ancient people which you are here confidently regurgitating like a drone. You should stop throwing mythology around and expect to be taken seriously. So Yahweh's words created the oceans and things abi? Why not his ejaculation. You guys are not serious.

They're conflating theological claims with scientific ones. I'll take their claims serious when they create Honda cars with spoken words

Butterflyleo:


There is no creation without a creator. Its that simple. Be it by spoken word or as a by product of something else. There is nothing that was caused to exist by something else that isn't a creation of that thing. Its simple law of cause and effect.

Be it rocks which are formed through a process, the creator are those which came together during the process to form the rocks or an ocean or oceans and seas which scientists speculate were once in gaseous state and then when the earth cooled it turned to rain and filled the places where they are as oceans and seas. That must have been one hell of a downpour to have caused such massive bodies of water which somehow also got buried deep down in the earth and saturated it because the inside of the earth is also filled with water.

There is no creation without a creator. Even the by products of this creation still points at a creator which made or formed them. Nothing on this earth exists on its own.

And why do you think this creator is the god of Christianity(a god that “chose” a certain people over all others and helped them to murder other people, men, women, and children, who were just as good and honorable, tells you that one of two things is true- either that god doesn’t exist or he doesn’t deserve to be worshiped, and if it’s the latter, we are f*cked). since the Bible and the church are obviously mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust them to tell us where we are going?

hopefulLandlord:


They're conflating theological claims with scientific ones. I'll take their claims serious when they create Honda cars with spoken words

They keep throwing ridiculous mythology around and expect to be taken seriously.

They shut down their brains and accept ancient and primitive magical explanations but claim to use their brains when scientist try to theorize or give hypothesis on how they feel things came to be.

They should use spoken words and mould a clay man let's see. Yeye dey smell.

dalaman:




They keep throwing ridiculous mythology around and expect to be taken seriously.

They shut down their brains and accept ancient and primitive magical explanations but claim to use their brains when scientist try to theorize or give hypothesis on how they feel things came to be.

They should use spoken words and mould a clay man let's see. Yeye dey smell.

Its called "god of the gaps", they look for something we haven't been able to explain (properly) then insert their favourite mythology as the explanation and hope you take it at face value

Trust and loyalty being the final arbiter for logic stands superior to logic so can only guide logic in the direction it does not trust and isn't absolutely loyal to. When it ever does apply logic to itself it does this as a means to further prove itself trustworthy and loyal because its foundation is already trusted and loyal in the eyes of the one doing the application.

----------- Butterflyleo 2018 ©

Cc vaxx you are free to borrow the above quote whenever you encounter a debate on logic.

This is the nitty gritty of every atheist and theist argument and every atheist ----> theist and theist ------> atheist conversion.

budaatum:

Listen to what others are saying a bit. True, anything that is created requires a creator. It's not yet agreed that everything that exists is created by a creator.

Work with dalaman to flesh this understanding out please.

Not everything directly requires a creator, I gave perfect examples of exhaust smoke and goosebumps. It will be inaccurate for me to say someone created smoke.

I think the long and short of this argument is that there is no effect without a cause, and last I checked, science agrees with this.

budaatum:

I too have not seen a Honda Accord created. But I can find out if it was, how it was, where it was, and who created it, easily. I can, if I am so concerned, even go watch a Honda Accord created by a creator, from scratch.

There does not seem to exist, the evidence for the creator you mention though, or that everything that exists was created.

it is much more believe that the Honda accord was formed over millions of years.

Everything that exists is the effect of a cause.

Butterflyleo:


----------- Butterflyleo 2018 ©

Cc vaxx you are free to borrow the above quote whenever you encounter a debate on logic.

But before you do quote it, consider the following:

An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam is a form of defeasible argument in which a claimed authority's support is used as evidence for an argument's conclusion. It is well known as a fallacy, though it is used in a cogent form when all sides of a discussion agree on the reliability of the authority in the given context.

dalaman:


He should tell us when he saw the oceans been created.

the oceans are effects of a cause.

budaatum:

Or at least tell us the process by which it was created.

Really?

winner01:
it is much more believe that the Honda accord was formed over millions of years.

Everything that exists is the effect of a cause.

Don't get this. Why believe Honda Accord was formed over millions of years? Are you suggesting it evolved into being?

winner01:
Not everything directly requires a creator, I gave perfect examples of exhaust smoke and goosebumps. It will be inaccurate for me to say someone created smoke.

I think the long and short of this argument is that there is no effect without a cause, and last I checked, science agrees with this.

Are causes and creators the same thing, in your opinion?

winner01:
the oceans are effects of a cause.

What created the oceans? Answer with evidence and not empty assumptions.

budaatum:

Don't get this. Why believe Honda Accord was formed over millions of years? Are you suggesting it evolved into being?

Honda accord was caused and also created into being.

The cause / creators --- the minds of the inventors of motor parts, body designs, functions, motion, etc all came together to contribute tweaks and improvements which ended up with the Honda accord.

Those whose minds imagined and practicalised this vehicle were themselves caused by something else. Just like winner01 said, a first cause can cause a ripple effect which brought about other effects which, if without the first cause, such ripple effects could not have existed or have been created so in truth all that came about via the ripple effect owe their existence or creation to the first cause for without it there is no them.

MuttleyLaff:
Yup, created a scene and fist-fight out of nothing
Cooked up a scrumptious dish out of nothing

The universe was created out of nothing
The waters (i.e. oceans) is "creatio ex-materia"

Fantastic!!!

hopefulLandlord:


They're conflating theological claims with scientific ones. I'll take their claims serious when they create Honda cars with spoken words

I can create a scene or a living with spoken words.

hopefulLandlord:


Its called "god of the gaps", they look for something we haven't been able to explain (properly) then insert their favourite mythology as the explanation and hope you take it at face value

If mysterious activity defies nature right now in your presence, I'm sure you'll say " well science has not found this out but it will", is that not atheism of the gaps?
I've heard several atheists use this line and I'll open a thread on it soon.

budaatum:

Don't get this. Why believe Honda Accord was formed over millions of years? Are you suggesting it evolved into being?

No, it is you people who are suggesting that the human brain, much more complex than the latest Honda series, evolved into being. There is no evidence to support it.

winner01:
I can create a scene or a living with spoken words.

Do that and let's see

budaatum:

Are causes and creators the same thing, in you opinion?

Causes create effects. That's an accurate statement bro.

winner01:
If mysterious activity defies nature right now in your presence, I'm sure you'll say " well science has not found this out but it will", is that not atheism of the gaps?
I've heard several atheists use this line and I'll open a thread on it soon.

Absolutely, fantastically, AMAZINGLY RIGHT!

Despite claiming to be an agnostic and an "I don't know" merchant he still pulls the atheism of the gaps delusion.

Butterflyleo:


Honda accord was caused and also created into being.

The cause / creators --- the minds of the inventors of motor parts, body designs, functions, motion, etc all came together to contribute tweaks and improvements which ended up with the Honda accord.

Those whose minds imagined and practicalised this vehicle were themselves caused by something else. Just like winner01 said, a first cause can cause a ripple effect which brought about other effects which, if without the first cause, such ripple effects could not have existed or have been created so in truth all that came about via the ripple effect owe their existence or creation to the first cause for without it there is no them.

Budaatum, dalaman, hopefulLandlord and co. Why don't you get the whole point even after its been beautifully simplified like this

hopefulLandlord:


Do that and let's see

A.Y, a comedian in Nigeria, has created a living for himself and his family using spoken words.

I can also go to Aso rock with a few thugs, and chant "death to Buhari", this will cause a scene.

Are you with me?

winner01:
Budaatum, dalaman, hopefulLandlord and co. Why don't you get the whole point even after its been beautifully simplified like this

What caused or created human beings? How can we know that your answer is objectively true and not based on lies or empty assumptions?